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Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Corvette / February 2005

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electrically stupid

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BDragon - 23 Jan 2005 03:32 GMT
I cannot quite remember what I'm supposed to be looking for.  When the brake
is on, the tail lamp works, but if I turn on the headlights, the tail lamp
goes dark.  Same thing happens when I hit the blinker.  This only happens to
one light.  The other one functions normally.

I cannot remember if I should be looking for a short to ground or a toaster
oven.  Oh, and here's a good one.  When  the ignition is completely turned
off, if I turn on my wiper switch, it clicks, but my stereo system comes on.
Wow, what's that about?

No fuses blow, the light just goes dead.  No matter what combination of
settings I try, only one filament in the bulb seems to work.  The other one
never lights. (The bulb is good.)

Any ideas, because auto electrical really confuses me and gives me a good
day of screaming fits?

Signature

BDragon

WayneC - 23 Jan 2005 05:45 GMT
> I cannot quite remember what I'm supposed to be looking for.  When the brake
> is on, the tail lamp works, but if I turn on the headlights, the tail lamp
> goes dark.  Same thing happens when I hit the blinker.  This only happens to
> one light.  The other one functions normally.

Sounds like it could be a problem in the turn signal switch, or possibly
in the headlamp switch.

Do both the blinkers work with the headlights off, or just in one
direction? I'm not certain from your description, but I assume you are
saying all is normal with the headlights off, and one stop/blinker bulb
stops working when the headlights are on.

It is tough to diagnose an electrical problem from afar, especially when
we don't even know what model year you're talking about!

> I cannot remember if I should be looking for a short to ground or a toaster
> oven.  

May just be an open circuit, since it affects both the stop light and
the turn signal... could be a corroded wiring harness pin or something
similar, but the fact that it works when the headlights are off seems to
me to point back at the two switches (turn signal and headlight switches).

Oh, and here's a good one.  When  the ignition is completely turned
> off, if I turn on my wiper switch, it clicks, but my stereo system comes on.
> Wow, what's that about?

Can't help without knowing what year Vette, or whether the stereo is the
stock setup or aftermarket (ie, has someone been mucking with the stereo
circuit?), or a wiring diagram.

> No fuses blow, the light just goes dead.
Are you back to talking about the tail light?

 No matter what combination of
> settings I try, only one filament in the bulb seems to work.  The other one
> never lights. (The bulb is good.)

"Never lights"? Don't you mean "never lights when the headlights are
on"? I assume you know "the bulb is good" because you've SEEN that
filament light up?

> Any ideas, because auto electrical really confuses me and gives me a good
> day of screaming fits?

If the bulb is good, then you need to start at the socket with a
multimeter, make sure you have a good ground at the socket, and with the
brake held on, trace the appropriate power wire back from there to see
what portion of the circuit that the power to that wire path is being
lost. That may require a wiring diagram for the car.

Or, take it to a competent electrical shop.
BDragon - 23 Jan 2005 07:59 GMT
> > I cannot quite remember what I'm supposed to be looking for.  When the brake
> > is on, the tail lamp works, but if I turn on the headlights, the tail lamp
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> Or, take it to a competent electrical shop.

Sorry I didn't provide more detail.  The car is a C3, 1977.  The
combinations
that do weird things are these (all relative to the driver's side tail
light):
1.  Headlights on:
   A. as long as neither the brake nor blinker is activated, everything
       appears normal
   B. hit brakes, tail light goes out completely, re-lights when released
   C. hit left blinker, tail light goes out completely, re-lights when
released
2. Brake pedal depressed, nothing else on:
   A. light functions normally
   B. turn on lights, tail light goes out, re-lights when headlights
released
   C. hit left blinker, tail light goes out, re-lights when blinker
released
3. Hit left blinker, nothing else on:
   A. tail light does not work

Regarding the filaments.  There are two settings in which the tail light
works:
   1.  Headlights on, nothing else on, tail light burns the lower element.
   2.  Brake depressed, nothing else on, tail light burns the lower
element.
Aren't the running lights supposed to light one filament, and the brake
light
another?  The same filament lights in both these cases.  I have found no
condition where the upper filament lights.

I have the 1977 Corvette electrical manual.  I haven't tested all the
possible
circuits because I keep getting dizzy, both from being confused and from
stuffing myself upside down under the dash.

I don't know if the wiper/stereo thing is connected to this light problem or
not.
I put the stereo in myself.  I did not share either the hot lead, the
ignition lead,
nor the ground with any other device.  I wired it in independently.  That is
why
I cannot understand how the two effect each other.  I bench tested the
wiper,
and it worked normally at both speeds, as well as when it parks.  But when I
install it, and when I connect the ground wire to it, the stereo comes on.
The
wiper clicks when I turn it on, and when I change the speed setting, but it
does
not run.

I don't understand how the headlight circuit is involved either.  It doesn't
share
a circuit with the brake circuit, or if it does, it's not supposed to is it?

Like your guess, mine so far has been the turn signal switch.  Or maybe more
than one thing is happening.  Because I could get it right away nearby, I
just
bought a new brake light switch.  I'll start with that, but I don't think
that is
going to solve it.  But, who knows?

If this gives you better information to take another guess from a distance,
please do so.  I appreciate any help.
ThaDriver - 23 Jan 2005 09:22 GMT
It's a bad ground. I'm willing to bet you're not looking at the taillight
filament when you press the brakes, just the brake filament that is not
any brighter than the taillight 'cause of the bad ground. There is a wire
that grounds to the frame. Crawl under the car (not sure *exactly* where
it's bolted 'cause it's been a couple decades since I've worked on one) &
find the ground wire running from the taillight to the frame. Unbolt it &
clean it & you'll have the lights working properly again.
Good luck with the wipers... ;^p
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
BDragon - 23 Jan 2005 11:16 GMT
Thanks for the idea.  I had already done that, however, but thanks.  I
welded up one of those do-dahs you can make with a caulk gun and I use that
to hold the brake down so I can go back to see what's going on.  Sometimes,
I swear, I go stupid, however, and I'm going to check the filament again.
However, I only seem to get any juice through the one circuit.  Inside the
bulb holder, you can see the two terminals easily, and one will give me
current, but the other doesn't.  It baffles me, because it seems like that
means at certain times the running light uses that one circuit, and the next
test with another configuration and the brake light uses it.  Does that make
any sense?  Could the two supply leads be tangled out somewhere?  Jeez, that
doesn't make any sense does it?

Oh, hell, I'm sorry.  I top posted.

> It's a bad ground. I'm willing to bet you're not looking at the taillight
> filament when you press the brakes, just the brake filament that is not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
ThaDriver - 23 Jan 2005 20:46 GMT
>Thanks for the idea.  I had already done that, however, but thanks.  I
welded up one of those do-dahs you can make with a caulk gun and I use
that
to hold the brake down so I can go back to see what's going on.
Sometimes,
I swear, I go stupid, however, and I'm going to check the filament again.
However, I only seem to get any juice through the one circuit.  Inside
the
bulb holder, you can see the two terminals easily, and one will give me
current, but the other doesn't.  It baffles me, because it seems like
that
means at certain times the running light uses that one circuit, and the
next
test with another configuration and the brake light uses it.  Does that
make
any sense?  Could the two supply leads be tangled out somewhere?  Jeez,
that
doesn't make any sense does it?

>Oh, hell, I'm sorry.  I top posted.
********
I use talkaboutautos.com to access these groups. I have to copy & paste in
the input box if I want the old message to show.
It's so hard to tell what's happening with wiring in person; impossible
over the web. Anything could be happening, but I don't think it's likely
the two leads are tangled. I *have* seen instances with these old GM
sockets with the buld installed 180 degrees off, causing all kinds of
wierd things to happen. You might consider replacing the socket if it's
corroded or hard to install the buld.
HTH,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
BDragon - 23 Jan 2005 23:02 GMT
Thanks, Paul.  It's even hard making some of this stuff in the daylight.  I
guess I'll just poke around until I fry something or fix it.  I think I'll
slowly replace the switches involved and hope a cheap one turns up to be the
problem first.
> >Thanks for the idea.  I had already done that, however, but thanks.  I
> welded up one of those do-dahs you can make with a caulk gun and I use
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
BDragon - 24 Jan 2005 14:58 GMT
With a witness to make sure I didn't screw it up, I can verify that no
matter which switch is on - headlight, brake, or blinker - the same one
filament in the bulb is the only one that lights.  How is that possible?

"BDragon"
ThaDriver - 24 Jan 2005 18:46 GMT
>With a witness to make sure I didn't screw it up, I can verify that no
matter which switch is on - headlight, brake, or blinker - the same one
filament in the bulb is the only one that lights.  How is that possible?
***********
Then it has to be in the wiring. The tail & stop lights are two different
circuits; I don't see any way a switch could cause this. Verify one more
time using a 12 v. test light that it's the same part of the *socket*
being fed by both the light switch & the brake light/turn signal switches.
If so you'll have to start tracing the wiring using the test light to
determine where the problem is. Trace back from the taillight; start by
unplugging the taillight socket & test the plug. If it's still the same
wire being fed there, determine where that wire goes to inside the car &
test there, etc. etc.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
Chuck - 24 Jan 2005 21:04 GMT
I'm not an expert on anything but I think you're going to find it's a bad
ground causing a feedback.
I've had a similiar experience of the lights not operating correctly and it
all came down to the ground
wire for the brake light socket.

> >With a witness to make sure I didn't screw it up, I can verify that no
> matter which switch is on - headlight, brake, or blinker - the same one
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
BDragon - 25 Jan 2005 02:01 GMT
> >With a witness to make sure I didn't screw it up, I can verify that no
> matter which switch is on - headlight, brake, or blinker - the same one
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!

I actually am reasonable at electrics, as long as it's AC.  I stewed and
fretted on that one filament dodah until three this morning.  Mostly I just
stood there and stared at it.  I still can't figure it out.

I've checked the socket and what have you.  I'm going to do again what you
first mentioned, what Chuck mentions, and what I did first, and that's make
certain that ground is solid.  I'm going to replace the wire and the
connecter, and the socket too if I can find one.  If that doesn't do it,
I'll start running the circuits.

Damndest thing I've experienced.  I'm hoping for a ground problem.  Here's
another thing that bothers me:  the other light works fine, and I know they
share at least the running light circuit.  When the one screws up, why
doesn't the other one?  Oh well.   Soon as it quits raining.

Thanks for the help guys.
WayneC - 25 Jan 2005 04:27 GMT
See my random thoughts and remarks interspersed below...

First, dumb question because I'm not familiar with C3's: do the rear
side markers go on with the tail lights? Do they blink with the turn
signal and/or brighten with the brake lights? I expect they aren't
supposed to blink or brighten, but I don't know... ie, is it possible
you're looking at the wrong bulb or fixture for your problem?

> I actually am reasonable at electrics, as long as it's AC.  I stewed and
> fretted on that one filament dodah until three this morning.  Mostly I just
> stood there and stared at it.  I still can't figure it out.

I spent some time today thinking about it myself, without pinpointing a
logical suspect.

> I've checked the socket and what have you.  I'm going to do again what you
> first mentioned, what Chuck mentions, and what I did first, and that's make
> certain that ground is solid.  I'm going to replace the wire and the
> connecter, and the socket too if I can find one.  

You don't really need to replace the ground, you can just add your own
makeshift ground wire clamped to a housing bolt and a good frame ground
for testing, or use a multimeter to check for zero-ohm connectivity
between the socket housing and a clean frame ground. If there's a wiring
connector behind the socket at the tailight, disconnect it and use a
multimeter to check at that point.

> If that doesn't do it,
> I'll start running the circuits.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> share at least the running light circuit.  When the one screws up, why
> doesn't the other one?  Oh well.   Soon as it quits raining.

More food for thought.... check my interspersed remarks below, in no
particular order...

> The car is a C3, 1977.  The combinations
> that do weird things are these (all relative to the driver's side tail
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Aren't the running lights supposed to light one filament,
> and the brake light another?

I would think so, too.

So the brake lights and turn signals work with the headlights off; the
parking/tail lights work with the headlight switch on, but then using
the turn signal and/or brake light switches, nothing works on the left rear.

The "brake light filament" is also the "turn signal filament", and based
on the wiring diagram on my C2: each side of the rear is fed by a
separate terminal on the turn signal switch (each tailight group on
mine... right versus left; you have only one tail light on each side but
a rear side marker is probably coupled to each tail light); likewise the
turn signal indicator lights in the dash are fed by a pair of terminals
(separate from the pair that feed the tailights) and the same terminal
feeds the front parking light.

Do the front parking lights operate normally as turn signals? Does the
left turn signal indicator light in the dash operate normally even when
the headlight switch is on or does it hang up? I think you said the
front turn signals are OK, so the dash blinker probably works, and the
problem, it seems to me, has to be in the turn signal switch or in the
wiring from it to the left tail light, but there's still that nagging
fact that turning on the headlights is what screws things up.

Here's a way to at least narrow it down, I think:

Locate the body harness connector going to the rear of the car. I'm not
sure where it is on your car, but I think it's probably above the side
kick panel up near the fusebox and close to the front door.

If you find it and disconnect it, you could use a DC setting on a
multimeter (from a pin/socket to ground) to test the wires coming from
the upstream half of the connector (ie, from the headlight switch and
from the directional signal switch). On my C2, the power wire from the
headlight switch to the tail lights is a black wire, the wire to the
left rear brake/turn filament is purple, and the one to the right rear
brake/turn filament is violet. In any event, the wire to the rear
parking/tail light filaments will have 12v only when the headlamp switch
is on; then (with the headlamp switch off) you need to find the two that
have power only when the brakes are depressed, ...and then each of the
two will pulsate when the corresponding turn signal is used... now that
you have them located, you can check those two with the headlamp switch
ON. If the left one ceases operating, at least you'll know the problem
is upstream and not in the harness wiring to the rear, or vice versa.

If the problem is downstream, we still have to figure out how turning on
left turn/brake affects only the left rear running light since the
running lights for both rear tail lamps are on the same wire.

If the problem is upstream, we got more thinking to do... I'd vote for
the turn signal switch since it's a common factor linking brake light
and blinker circuits, except I haven't yet figured out how the headlamp
switch affects it, either. Can we assume you're using the correct bulb
and that you've tested it in the right-hand tail light?

> The same filament lights in both these cases.  I have found no
> condition where the upper filament lights.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> parks.  But when I install it, and when I connect the ground wire
> to it, the stereo comes on.

 Some thoughts:

Try a test ground wire from the wiper ground connection to the battery
negative post (disco the current ground wire first) and then check the
wiper and stereo operation.

Is the stereo normally turned off, or do you normally leave it on so it
just starts playing when the ignition comes on? If it was an aftermarket
stereo, maybe you need to revisit the connections for the hot and
ignition switch leads at the radio to be sure you don't have them
reversed, and revisit the wiper ground wire to make sure it really does
connect to ground at the other end... and test that disco'd ground lead
to see it it's hot.

Does the antenna raise and lower normally?

That the stereo comes on means you probably have 12v getting to it's
switched ignition wire... could you have accidentally soldered across 2
wires (or as I said before, have the switched and nonswitched power
leads reversed)? Disco the stereo for the time being and see if that
changes the wiper and/or tail light behavior.

> The wiper clicks when I turn it on, and when I change the
> speed setting, but it does not run.

Would it be difficult to disconnect those two devices (stereo and wiper)
while you're troubleshooting the current problem? You didn't mention
whether the tail light problem or the wiper problem occurred well after,
or immediately after, you added the stereo.

> I don't understand how the headlight circuit is involved either.
> It doesn't share a circuit with the brake circuit, or if it does,
> it's not supposed to is it?

No. I don't think so, but I haven't fully traced even my C2 wiring diagram.

> Like your guess, mine so far has been the turn signal switch.
> Or maybe more than one thing is happening.  Because I could get it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If this gives you better information to take another guess from
> a distance, please do so.  I appreciate any help.
Diode - 25 Jan 2005 17:17 GMT
ThaDriver spoke thusly:

> Then it has to be in the wiring. The tail & stop lights are two different

Nope, Chuck is right...it's a "ground loop" problem caused by the
missing ground for the socket.

Signature

Shut up, Dave.

-|>|- Diode -|<|-
'68 L-79 Coupe
'79 Triumph Bonneville

ThaDriver - 26 Jan 2005 07:19 GMT
>Nope, Chuck is right...it's a "ground loop" problem caused by the
missing ground for the socket.
********
Well that's what I *first* said. That type of problem is almost always a
ground problem. But the OP said he had checked, cleaned, & rechecked the
ground.
Then he said that BOTH the brake & taillight was lighting up the SAME
FILAMENT...
(try to keep up :-)
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
Dad - 26 Jan 2005 14:30 GMT
> >Nope, Chuck is right...it's a "ground loop" problem caused by the
> missing ground for the socket.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> ~ Paul
> aka "Tha Driver"

Still think that is the problem and he never said which ground he cleaned up
and if in fact he even worked on grounding the offending bulb socket. Try to
stay focused. ;-]
Signature

Dad
05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51
72 Shark Black/Black/4spd

ThaDriver - 26 Jan 2005 18:15 GMT
>Still think that is the problem and he never said which ground he cleaned up
and if in fact he even worked on grounding the offending bulb socket. Try
to
stay focused. ;-]
**********
I still say a bad ground CANNOT POSSIBLY cause BOTH the brake & taillight
to light up the SAME FILAMENT. How 'ya figure that???
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
Nate Nagel - 26 Jan 2005 23:38 GMT
>>Still think that is the problem and he never said which ground he cleaned
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!

They'll both pass current through *both* filaments, but you'll only see
one of them glowing (the smaller one)

nate

Signature

replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

BDragon - 28 Jan 2005 02:10 GMT
> >>Still think that is the problem and he never said which ground he cleaned
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> nate

I not only cleaned up the grounding area on the frame, but I replaced the
tail light socket with a new one, extended a new ground wire to the cleaned
up area, spliced in with butt splices and heat shrink to water proof, and
the only thing that happened is that the bulb was brighter.  Whether it is
the blinker, the tail light or the brake, only one filament lights.  If I
have one thing on, like the tail lights, and turn on that blinker, the
filament which is lit by the tail lights begins to blink.  No matter what
combination I try, I have not yet to get the other filament to light.

One thing I have noticed is that the other side tail light seems really
bright.  That's the only anomaly on that side, and I'm not sure it's
abnormally bright, just bright by comparison.

I asked before if anyone knows if there is just the one grounding area on
that harness in the rear.  It's the only one I can locate.  I don't know why
there would be a second one, but wondering.

If there is a ground loop, I've got to wonder why the other lights work
fine.  Aren't they all grounded to the same place?  They must be grounded in
parallel because the ground terminates in a single connection.

And unless I'm in a parallel universe, I cannot for the life of me
understand how the tail light and brake light are sharing a circuit.

I'm still working on it, but I just futzing around until something that
makes some sense pops up.  I tried to replace the brake switch last night,
but my back gave out first, so I'll give it another go tonight.
BDragon - 28 Jan 2005 02:13 GMT
> >>Still think that is the problem and he never said which ground he cleaned
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> nate

Separately, how does this current in both circuits thing work.  I don't have
anything showing on the second circuit with a test light, and I'm not
registering anything on the multimeter.  If there is supposed to be current
in both circuits, does that mean there is a common area where the light
switch and the brake switch could be connected or close together?  Do you
know where that would be?
ThaDriver - 28 Jan 2005 03:37 GMT
> They'll both pass current through *both* filaments, but you'll only see
> one of them glowing (the smaller one)
>
> nate

Separately, how does this current in both circuits thing work.  I don't
have
anything showing on the second circuit with a test light, and I'm not
registering anything on the multimeter.  If there is supposed to be
current
in both circuits, does that mean there is a common area where the light
switch and the brake switch could be connected or close together?  Do you
know where that would be?
*******
Ignore what Nate said. Apparently he hasn't read your posts where you said
only one circuit has current, & both the brake/turn & taillight is feeding
that circuit.
If at this point you're still not getting current in one of the curcuits,
it must be either a bad turn signal switch or crossed wires somewhere in
the loom. Use a continuity tester (disconnect the car's battery) to check
what will carry current to where.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Easy on the Giggle Cream!
BDragon - 29 Jan 2005 03:09 GMT
> > They'll both pass current through *both* filaments, but you'll only see
> > one of them glowing (the smaller one)
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Easy on the Giggle Cream!

I'm on it.  I'd still like to get that brake switch out, too, and replaced.
But, damn, it's hard laying upside down, half in and half out of the car.
I'll let you know what turns up.
ThaDriver - 29 Jan 2005 04:23 GMT
>But, damn, it's hard laying upside down, half in and half out of the car.
I'll let you know what turns up.
*********
I can dig it. It didn't use to be a problem for me, but at 50+ I have a
hard time crawling under the dashes too - especially on these "newer" cars
with all the crap they put in there now...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
BDragon - 31 Jan 2005 02:32 GMT
Okay.  Now, for the bulb itself, a few things have changed and a few things
haven't.  There is still only one filament being used in the bulb by both
the tail light and the brake/blinker light.  However, each system works if I
turn it on independently.  All three light-requiring functions use the lower
of the two filaments in the bulb.

On the right bulb, the running or tail lights utilize the top filament, and
the brake/blinker uses the bottom filament.

Currently, I can have the brake or blinker on and turn on the tail lights
and it no longer goes dead.  If the blinker is on, it keeps blinking, but at
a much slower rate.  The other filament doesn't light, so I don't know if
current is coming into that bulb for the tail light and being diverted to
the brake/blinker filament, but it certainly appears that way.

In all cases, the bulb on the left is much, much dimmer than the bulb on the
right, and if I try two functions, the left bulb gets even dimmer.

If it weren't for the fact that the tail lights and brake/blinker lights are
sharing the filament or circuit, it sure would look like a ground problem.
But, they are sharing the circuit somehow, AND the circuit being shared
lights the opposite filament in the left bulb than it does in the right
bulb.

My back is broken.  No change out yet on the brake switch.  I cannot find
anything obvious.  So, it's obviously hiding.
WayneC - 01 Feb 2005 04:24 GMT
More food for thought:

Are both bulbs (right and left) the same type? Have you switched or
replaced them to make certain the problem doesn't follow the bulb?

I am not that familiar with a 77:

 - are the inner (backup) lamps essentially the same as a tail light?
Ie, is there a completely different type of bulb and socket in the
backup lamps, or is the backup lamp essentially the same as a tail lamp
except that it has a different lens and the wires that go to it only
activate the bright (or both) filament(s) when the car is put in reverse?

 - Is the socket part of the tail lamp assembly, or is it part of the
wiring harness?

- how difficult is it to get at the wiring from behind the lamps (can
you reach them to disconnect them, or can you unbolt and move the tail
lamp housing out far enough to disconnect the harness)?

My thinking here is that IF the wiring connector is separate from the
socket, and you have a bad socket (which can easily happen as moisture
corrodes the hidden insides of the fixture over time), then you might be
able to test for that in several ways...

1. switch the connectors between the lamp housings (tail light and
backup light) and see if the problem follows the wiring harness
connector (ie, the backup lamp would behave as a tailight), or...

2. Similarly, if the wiring harness is accessible and it runs from the
left side across the back end to the right side, and if you could free
the harness to get enough slack, you could connect the right-side
harness to the left-side housing to see if the problem persists (or use
test leads to do the same thing) when the right blinker and brakes and
lights are on, which would again indicate a housing/socket issue. Or...

3. Similarly again, if the connector can be removed from the socket,
that would isolate the harness from the bulb socket; then just test the
leads in the connector by using use 3 test leads to connect a loose tail
lamp bulb to the harness connector to see if the bulb functions normally.

If the wiring harness connector is not separate, but integral with the
bulb socket and the socket plugs into the housing, then probably the
only way to test for a bad socket is to cut the attaching wires, test
the harness wires with a loose bulb (as in 3, above), and/or test the
socket by checking for continuity between the cut socket wires with the
bulb removed (I think all 3 should be independent, no continuity between
them) and re-splice the harness wires.

> Okay.  Now, for the bulb itself, a few things have changed and a few things
> haven't.  There is still only one filament being used in the bulb by both
> the tail light and the brake/blinker light.  However, each system works if I
> turn it on independently.  All three light-requiring functions use the lower
> of the two filaments in the bulb.

That's probably not good. The rhetorical question is, where is the
current leakage across to the lower filament... at the light fixture or
further upstream?

> On the right bulb, the running or tail lights utilize the top filament, and
> the brake/blinker uses the bottom filament.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> current is coming into that bulb for the tail light and being diverted to
> the brake/blinker filament, but it certainly appears that way.

You don't really mean the "bulb" do you? Surely you have swapped or
changed out the bulb already, so the problem has to be outside the bulb.
And, surely you have used a multimeter to check the voltage at both
terminals inside the socket while varying the lights, signals, brakes.

> In all cases, the bulb on the left is much, much dimmer than the bulb on the
> right, and if I try two functions, the left bulb gets even dimmer.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> My back is broken.  No change out yet on the brake switch.  I cannot find
> anything obvious.  So, it's obviously hiding.
BDragon - 03 Feb 2005 03:02 GMT
> More food for thought:
>
> Are both bulbs (right and left) the same type? Have you switched or
> replaced them to make certain the problem doesn't follow the bulb?

I have put new bulbs into each socket.

> I am not that familiar with a 77:
>
>   - are the inner (backup) lamps essentially the same as a tail light?
The backup lights are separate from the tail lights.

> Ie, is there a completely different type of bulb and socket in the
> backup lamps, or is the backup lamp essentially the same as a tail lamp
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   - Is the socket part of the tail lamp assembly, or is it part of the
> wiring harness?

No positive I understand this.  The wires run out of the loom and directly
into the socket where they attach to the terminals that connect to the
bottom of the bulb.l

> - how difficult is it to get at the wiring from behind the lamps (can
> you reach them to disconnect them, or can you unbolt and move the tail
> lamp housing out far enough to disconnect the harness)?

There isn't a place to disconnect from the harness.  The wires run all the
way from up front to the rear.

> My thinking here is that IF the wiring connector is separate from the
> socket, and you have a bad socket (which can easily happen as moisture
> corrodes the hidden insides of the fixture over time), then you might be
> able to test for that in several ways...

I have put a new socket in with no change to the problem.

> 1. switch the connectors between the lamp housings (tail light and
> backup light) and see if the problem follows the wiring harness
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> bulb removed (I think all 3 should be independent, no continuity between
> them) and re-splice the harness wires.

Apparently the problem is further upstream and the socket itself tests okay,
but the current coming to it does not light up the one side or filament.

> > Okay.  Now, for the bulb itself, a few things have changed and a few things
> > haven't.  There is still only one filament being used in the bulb by both
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> current leakage across to the lower filament... at the light fixture or
> further upstream?

Apparently further upstream.

> > On the right bulb, the running or tail lights utilize the top filament, and
> > the brake/blinker uses the bottom filament.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> And, surely you have used a multimeter to check the voltage at both
> terminals inside the socket while varying the lights, signals, brakes.

I didn't say this well.  I don't mean the diversion is occuring in the bulb
itself, but somewhere before it gets to the bulb.

> > In all cases, the bulb on the left is much, much dimmer than the bulb on the
> > right, and if I try two functions, the left bulb gets even dimmer.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > My back is broken.  No change out yet on the brake switch.  I cannot find
> > anything obvious.  So, it's obviously hiding.
ThaDriver - 01 Feb 2005 05:29 GMT
Ok let me double-check this; Have you unplugged the socket to that
taillight & tested the feed(s) using a 12v volt test light? I believe you
said you have but I want to re-check that anyway. If you have, & there is
only one wire getting current from both circuits, find those wires where
they enter the cabin (near the dash) & check them there. If only one wire
gets current from both circuits there then it must(?) be in the fusebox or
a switch...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
BDragon - 03 Feb 2005 03:09 GMT
> Ok let me double-check this; Have you unplugged the socket to that
> taillight & tested the feed(s) using a 12v volt test light? I believe you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!

I have unplugged the socket and tested the feeds using the mutimeter,
mainly just checking for voltage.  Only one wire receives anything.  And
no matter what I check, it seems as if I'm just going to have to camp under
the steering wheel for a while.  I agree on the switch probability.  I still
haven't taken the brake switch out and replaced it.  By the time I get
squared away under there, all the wires are about two inches from my
face and I can only get one arm under there so I can't hold one thing while
I pull on another.  I'm starting to think just pulling the dash might be
easier.
I've done it before and while it took some time, it wasn't all that bad.
Just
a bowl of spaghetti.  I've got to get my shop manual out and see if I can do
the brake switch by braille.
ThaDriver - 01 Feb 2005 05:32 GMT
Ok let me double-check this; Have you unplugged the socket to that
taillight & tested the feed(s) using a 12v volt test light? I believe you
said you have but I want to re-check that anyway. If you have, & there is
only one wire getting current from both circuits, find those wires where
they enter the cabin (near the dash) & check them there. If only one wire
gets current from both circuits there then it must(?) be in the fusebox or
a switch...(or under-dash wiring..)
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
Diode - 02 Feb 2005 03:56 GMT
BDragon spoke thusly...

> My back is broken.  No change out yet on the brake switch.  I cannot find
> anything obvious.  So, it's obviously hiding.

What was the quote from Sherlock Holmes?  Something about once you have
eliminated every possible explanation, it's time to look at the
impossible ones, or something to that effect...

Signature

-|>|- Diode -|<|-
'68 L-79 Coupe
'79 Triumph Bonneville
Shut up, dave.
Professional driver on a closed course.  Do not attempt.
Actual mileage may vary.

BDragon - 03 Feb 2005 03:11 GMT
> BDragon spoke thusly...
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> eliminated every possible explanation, it's time to look at the
> impossible ones, or something to that effect...

The scary part for me now is discovering that the problem is so incredibly
obvious I missed it.  That will be after I tear everything apart, of course.

It's been getting down to under 20 degrees here and my hands freeze up
pretty quickly so this whole thing is taking way too long.
ThaDriver - 03 Feb 2005 18:15 GMT
>It's been getting down to under 20 degrees here and my hands freeze up
pretty quickly so this whole thing is taking way too long.
********
I'm cold natured; I can't work if it gets below 50. :-)
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Easy on the Giggle Cream!
BDragon - 06 Feb 2005 05:04 GMT
> >It's been getting down to under 20 degrees here and my hands freeze up
> pretty quickly so this whole thing is taking way too long.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Easy on the Giggle Cream!

Well, I was afraid something like this was going to happen, and to have to
expose it in public is even worse.  A friend just came by.  He said he had
the same problem with a Blazer he had bought.  He looked at the bulb, and he
said it was burned.  It was, but that had just happened.  I gave him another
fresh one and he said, "You had this in backward."  No way, I protested.  We
both looked deep into the socket while he admitted he had done the same
thing on the Blazer and that the same filament  lit up for both the tail
lights and the brake light.  He reversed it.  And hell, it worked.  I can't
believe this.  But it works.  Now I just have to put the entire dash back
together and try to figure out what simple stupid thing I'm doing that keeps
the wiper from working.

Thanks for the responses.  Sorry I wasted all you'alls time.  But, I would
have never thought this was it.  And, I did learn a lot.
ThaDriver - 06 Feb 2005 08:14 GMT
I thought you had tried a 12 v. test light in the socket & you only had
*one* circuit getting power from everything.... :-/
Oh well; at least it's working now.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Easy on the Giggle Cream!
 
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