Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Corvette / October 2005
catalytic converter
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BDragon - 06 Oct 2005 02:06 GMT You know how sometimes your vehicle just doesn't feel quite right, but you can't really point to anything that's a problem? I've been having that uncomfortable feeling for a while, and I just got to wondering how a person can check the catalytic converter. I had a truck that I bought because it wouldn't run, and a replacement of the catalytic did the trick. Do they slowly become stuffed with garbage and slowly deteriorate the car's performance, or does it just suddenly happen? I have a 1977 350ci. Most everything is new, but I haven't done anything to the exhaust yet.
sbright - 06 Oct 2005 12:52 GMT I've never had a "stuffed" catalyc converter..(although I've heard of this being a problem) I can tell you though, that I had a broken baffle in a muffler and after replacing the muffler.. the car ran way WAY better.
-Stan
> You know how sometimes your vehicle just doesn't feel quite right, but you > can't really point to anything that's a problem? I've been having that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > performance, or does it just suddenly happen? I have a 1977 350ci. Most > everything is new, but I haven't done anything to the exhaust yet. RicSeyler - 06 Oct 2005 19:30 GMT A '77? I'd say it's a decent chance the converter is plugging.. Back in those days many people would run leaded gas in them and that would melt the honeycomb...
Has the gas filler area been knocked out to fit a leaded nozzle?
>You know how sometimes your vehicle just doesn't feel quite right, but you >can't really point to anything that's a problem? I've been having that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >
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JG - 07 Oct 2005 03:50 GMT >A '77? I'd say it's a decent chance the converter is plugging.. > Back in those days many people would run leaded gas in them > and that would melt the honeycomb... > > Has the gas filler area been knocked out to fit a leaded nozzle? Didn't they run the large ones with the pellets in them back then? They were notorious for going bad. Mine did on my 75 Monte Carlo in 1979.
RicSeyler - 07 Oct 2005 17:30 GMT errrr..... you are absolutely right they were filled with pellets, and the pellets would melt together with the leaded gas. Not honeycomb. I forgot about the plug on the bottom we would remove to dump out the pellets... LOLOL
> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >
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BDragon - 08 Oct 2005 02:16 GMT > errrr..... you are absolutely right they were filled with pellets, > and the pellets would melt together with the leaded gas. > Not honeycomb. I forgot about the plug on the bottom > we would remove to dump out the pellets... LOLOL Didn't the ones with the pellets end up smelling like rotten eggs? This one doesn't have the bottom dump in the catalytic, which is another reason I've been thinking it has been changed out somewhere along the way. One time, in its history, the car left the road -- didn't roll -- but I understand it went broadside into a field and caused some damage. Maybe the exhaust was replaced then, which is about twelve years back. I've had the car for about four or five years now, and for three of those, it just sat. So it might have had eight or so years of running on it. It was definitely a daily driver back then.
> >>A '77? I'd say it's a decent chance the converter is plugging.. > >>Back in those days many people would run leaded gas in them [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Didn't they run the large ones with the pellets in them back then? They > >were notorious for going bad. Mine did on my 75 Monte Carlo in 1979. BDragon - 08 Oct 2005 02:08 GMT > A '77? I'd say it's a decent chance the converter is plugging.. > Back in those days many people would run leaded gas in them > and that would melt the honeycomb... > > Has the gas filler area been knocked out to fit a leaded nozzle? No, the filler is for non-leaded only. Since I've had it, it has only run premium unleaded gasoline. The condition of the entire exhaust system makes me think it has probably undergone at least one change. There are no holes, and very few dents.
> >You know how sometimes your vehicle just doesn't feel quite right, but you > >can't really point to anything that's a problem? I've been having that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >performance, or does it just suddenly happen? I have a 1977 350ci. Most > >everything is new, but I haven't done anything to the exhaust yet. WayneC - 06 Oct 2005 19:51 GMT > You know how sometimes your vehicle just doesn't feel quite right, but you > can't really point to anything that's a problem? I've been having that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > performance, or does it just suddenly happen? I have a 1977 350ci. Most > everything is new, but I haven't done anything to the exhaust yet. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question482.htm http://www.misterfixit.com/cat.htm
BDragon - 08 Oct 2005 02:17 GMT > > You know how sometimes your vehicle just doesn't feel quite right, but you > > can't really point to anything that's a problem? I've been having that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question482.htm > http://www.misterfixit.com/cat.htm Thanks for the links, Wayne. I'm on my way to take a look.
BDragon - 08 Oct 2005 02:26 GMT > > You know how sometimes your vehicle just doesn't feel quite right, but you > > can't really point to anything that's a problem? I've been having that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question482.htm > http://www.misterfixit.com/cat.htm Wayne, let me thank you again. Those are very informational links that are now on my favorites list.
not@home.now - 06 Oct 2005 22:05 GMT do a pressure test, you can make a adaptor out of an old O2 sensor to connect to your fuel pressure gauge with a short length of hose, if it is more than 4-5 inches it is plugged up, you can test to see if it is working by using a infrared temp gun, check the temps before and after the cat, should be at least 100 degrees hotter after the converter. some times the substrate will come loose and you can hit the converter with your hand and hear it rattle around (make sure that puppy is cooled off, they get real hot) Greg
>You know how sometimes your vehicle just doesn't feel quite right, but you >can't really point to anything that's a problem? I've been having that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >performance, or does it just suddenly happen? I have a 1977 350ci. Most >everything is new, but I haven't done anything to the exhaust yet. BDragon - 08 Oct 2005 02:12 GMT > do a pressure test, you can make a adaptor out of an old O2 sensor to > connect to your fuel pressure gauge with a short length of hose, if it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Greg > On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 18:06:50 -0700, Could you be a bit more specific on using the O2 sensor. I don't understand how to do this? Thanks.
I wouldn't mind doing the infrared temp gun check, but I'll have to check on the price of that piece of equipment first. Might be one of those things I would want someone who already has a gun do. Would there be other methods of testing that temperature differential?
Smacking it is something, however, that I can do, for sure. LOL. Thanks.
"BDragon"
> <theCRAZYdoc47@charter.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >performance, or does it just suddenly happen? I have a 1977 350ci. Most > >everything is new, but I haven't done anything to the exhaust yet. not@home.now - 08 Oct 2005 15:24 GMT As far as using the o2 sensor, all you are trying to do is hook up a pressure gauge upstream of the converter to see what the back pressure is. snap-on sells a cheap adaptor that screws into the o2 sensor bung and you just hook up a fuel pressure gauge to the adaptor and watch it as you raise the rpm of the motor. you will know pretty quick if it is plugged or not. this is about the only way that most shops check for plugged converters.
the temp method tells you if it is "lighting off" or not. so I guess that really is not a issue here. as far as modifying a o2 sensor you can just take the guts out of it so all you have left is the part that screws into the o2 sensor bung and weld or glue a nipple onto it to connect your hose to your pressure gauge. as far as other methods of checking temps, I am sure there are, but every one I know does it with a infrared gun now, and that is really not a good test for it being plugged. Greg
>> do a pressure test, you can make a adaptor out of an old O2 sensor to >> connect to your fuel pressure gauge with a short length of hose, if it [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> >performance, or does it just suddenly happen? I have a 1977 350ci. Most >> >everything is new, but I haven't done anything to the exhaust yet. BDragon - 08 Oct 2005 20:52 GMT Thanks for the info. I'm going to give it a try. I'll let you know if I find anything out.
> As far as using the o2 sensor, all you are trying to do is hook up a > pressure gauge upstream of the converter to see what the back pressure [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > >> >performance, or does it just suddenly happen? I have a 1977 350ci. Most > >> >everything is new, but I haven't done anything to the exhaust yet. RicSeyler - 09 Oct 2005 21:39 GMT Plus you could always do the old fashioned way by unhooking it... hehehe, I like the O2 Pep Boys style adapter and pressure gauge but how often would you ever use those later??? arrgh... nuttin ever easy or cheep.... :-)
>Thanks for the info. I'm going to give it a try. I'll let you know if I >find anything out. > >
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BDragon - 09 Oct 2005 21:53 GMT > Plus you could always do the old fashioned way by unhooking it... > hehehe, I like the O2 Pep Boys style adapter and pressure gauge > but how often would you ever use those later??? arrgh... nuttin ever > easy or cheep.... :-) I thought about that, but I have an O2 sensor I just took off of a Dodge Dakota. If that fits, or if I can make it fit, I'll try it. Otherwise, as you say, I guess I can always do it the easy way and take the catalytic off. I'm not even sure why I started thinking about the converter, but I guess I'll have to check it just to be sure, now.
Does anyone know if, in California, it is legal to run exhaust straight through to the back and put TWO catalytic converters on the vehicle - one on each side? I started wondering, not that I am going to do that, and didn't know the answer. I know the expense would be prohibitive, but is there a law about this?
> >Thanks for the info. I'm going to give it a try. I'll let you know if I > >find anything out. RicSeyler - 10 Oct 2005 16:07 GMT Now I think, but not sure on this..... 1) They will look for anything that is different than stock, excluding parts with CARB Numbers. 2) They will put it on the sniffer to see if it passes...
So as far as I understand (which might be wrong) if they see 2 CATS and the car came with one you would fail, even if the car passes the sniffer.
I'd think the ONLY important thing would be passing the sniffer no matter what parts were on the car. Now-a-days a person could build 500hp and pass any state emission tests. I don't see the harm. But I'm not a politician. hehehehehe
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PJ - 10 Oct 2005 18:11 GMT > Now I think, but not sure on this..... > 1) They will look for anything that is different than stock, excluding [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > any state emission tests. I don't see the harm. But I'm not a > politician. hehehehehe As far as California is concerned, Ric's got it right -- it's bureaucratic and political. The California Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) goes by a Bible that for other than mass produced models is error prone. We (me and the BAR) used to play the every-other-year smog game with my gray market 911, bought in Europe. It always passed the sniffer but had a distributor that wasn't on the list of approved items. The car would fail visual inspection at the local smog guy and I'd go the 40 mile drive to the "referee station" (a private contractor that answers to no one). They would issue a notice of failure. I would mail that to Porsche America in Reno. Porsche would return a form letter that my distributor was an "authorized substitute."
Back to the BAR referee station with the Prosche letter. They would pass the car. Two years later it was back through the same process. The prior correspondence didn't count because the manuals hadn't been revised to include my distributor. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Finally, I got smart and took the critter to a Prosche dealer for smog. California law let the dealer sign off on the distributor, OK the car and pass it. $ 105 bucks for a smog inspection at the dealer was cheaper than $ 45 at the corner smog guy...figure.
These people look at the VUN. For a given VIN there's a configuration list of things they look for. If I had taken my European 911 and upgraded it with all California approved components it would have failed.
I have seen inspection options on the smog testing machines that provide for two CATs but don't know what that might mean. I fear that getting the two banks into the ball park might be tougher than the average of the two -- maybe an ECM averaging two O2 sensors??? Next time someone goes for smog it might be a good deal to ask and post the answer here.
PJ
BDragon - 10 Oct 2005 20:40 GMT Good idea, PJ. I should be getting a notice to renew on my Corvette within the next month or so. I'll ask, and I'll post the answer I get.
> > Now I think, but not sure on this..... > > 1) They will look for anything that is different than stock, excluding [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > PJ Dad - 10 Oct 2005 22:37 GMT > Good idea, PJ. I should be getting a notice to renew on my Corvette > within > the next month or so. I'll ask, and I'll post the answer I get. Snip
>> I have seen inspection options on the smog testing machines that provide >> for two CATs but don't know what that might mean. I fear that getting [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> PJ Actually it's getting more complex than that. My 04 had 2 pre-cats and 2 cats with a pre burn and an after burn o2 sensor for each side. The computer is reading the exhaust input and then its output to make fuel trim settings.
What one state says will mean nothing to another states set of laws, most of all Kalifornicate. The federal laws state that it must be as it came from the factory, any modification to the exhaust configuration is a no no. Even the add on split after the muffler is not legal but not enforced by states that don't have mandatory exhaust compliance testing.
The only out I've seen is the age of an old car making it exempt and that is getting scarce.
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PJ - 11 Oct 2005 06:58 GMT >>Good idea, PJ. I should be getting a notice to renew on my Corvette >>within [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > The only out I've seen is the age of an old car making it exempt and that is > getting scarce. Good point here. It has to be "as built" but there's a loophole that allows a mod if the original parts are no longer made by the factory or available in the aftermarket. This car is nearly 30 years old and may, due to its age, well off the radar.
Originally, Calif. exempted anything over 25 years old. In the early 1990s the regulations switched to include everything back to 1967. That was the point I gave up on trying to skirt the law and switched to the 'vette. It might be a good time to see if there are still factory parts to "restore" it to, "as built" If not, and the aftermarket can't duplicate the whole system then a "best effort" to make the car comply might be in order.
pj
BDragon - 12 Oct 2005 09:16 GMT > >>Good idea, PJ. I should be getting a notice to renew on my Corvette > >>within [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > pj Boy, I wish that would work. So far, however, I haven't had much trouble finding parts for the car. As I mentioned, I'm thinking of getting a 1975 or older just to avoid this nuisance of not being able to modify the vehicle, even for mileage and performance.
BDragon - 12 Oct 2005 09:14 GMT > > Good idea, PJ. I should be getting a notice to renew on my Corvette > > within [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The only out I've seen is the age of an old car making it exempt and that is > getting scarce. Exemptions are a sad story, Dad. California had been opting out cars that were 25 years old and older, so the year of the exempt vehicle moved up each year. However, they have recently decided to freeze the movement and have chosen the year 1977, so my vehicle will never be exempt from the smog laws and the "has to be in original factory condition" law.
Currently looking for a 1975 or older.
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