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Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Corvette / July 2006noisey aluminum engines
Hi, I don't have a Corvette, but I understand my 2006 Silverado has a version of the Corvette motor. It's with aluminum block and heads, 310hp, and it is noisey as hell if you ask me. The dealer tells me they can't hear anything unusual in it, shining me on as if I'm some kind of nut. I'm about ready to go over their head. I hear a sound akin to someone banging a pot with a wooden spoon, or like the ringing a big bell off in the distance. I've listened to as many of these pickups as I can. I've heard this noise in one other, but it was more faint, and on the opposite bank of the block. Sometimes my engine sounds as if its a diesel! For some reason, I can't get any information on the chevy truck groups, it's as if all the knowledgeable people left, and there is little to no posting about new trucks. In addition to this noise, I notice the serpentine tensioner hops around alot. I don't know if that is normal, but the crank pully runs out on its face and I know that shouldn't be. Can anyone give me any insight into this stuff? Thanks, Copas > Hi, I don't have a Corvette, but I understand my 2006 Silverado has a version > of the Corvette motor. Not really, but both the Corvette and your truck have an engine built by GM and they have been building aluminum V8s since 1961. This is the first time I've hear them called noisy. >It's with aluminum block and heads, 310hp, and it is noisey as hell if you ask >me. The dealer tells me they can't hear anything unusual in it, shining me on >as if I'm some kind of nut. I'm about ready to go over their head. Don't hold back, go over their heads, what do they know as a dealer. > I hear a sound akin to someone banging a pot with a wooden spoon, or like the > ringing a big bell off in the distance. > > I've listened to as many of these pickups as I can. I've heard this noise in > one other, but it was more faint, and on the opposite bank of the block. The subject said "noisey aluminum engines" and now you think it is only two? >Sometimes my engine sounds as if its a diesel! For some reason, I can't get >any information on the chevy truck groups, it's as if all the knowledgeable [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I don't know if that is normal, but the crank pully runs out on its face and I > know that shouldn't be. So now you think it is the belt tension pulley and not the engine? What does the dealer say about the run out on the harmonic dampener? Did they think the motion of the tension pulley was acceptable? One thing that has happened to the Corvette LS series engine is the crank is hollow and is filled with oil. There have been some of the retaining bolts on the crank/dampener come loose and would cause the wobble that you speak of. It would also have an apparent oil leak that would show up quickly in the front of the engine. That loose dampener could create a unusual amount of belt slap and make you tension pulley hop. It can also come off and exit through the radiator. With the engine running and all of you fingers and clothing out of the belt path does the belt seem to track smoothly? Does it run smooth for a while and then seem to shutter and get noisy? With the engine off/not running can you turn the large washer on the end of the crankshaft? If so you need to make the dealer aware of that fact very soon. The six aluminum engines I've owned have been very quiet and smooth so I can't explain why yours is not other than the loose dampener that happened to some a couple of years back. Almost forgot, there was some piston slap some years back because of the short piston skirt that I thought they had corrected. That would show up most of the time when it was cold and have no effect on the belt. > Can anyone give me any insight into this stuff? > > Thanks, > Copas Let us know what you find out.  SignatureDad 05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51 72 Shark Black/Black/4spd <saving bandwith> > Let us know what you find out. Yes. I'm curious too. AJM '93 Ruby Coupe, 6 sp (both tops) >>Hi, I don't have a Corvette, but I understand my 2006 Silverado has a version >>of the Corvette motor. > > Not really, but both the Corvette and your truck have an engine built by GM and > they have been building aluminum V8s since 1961. This is the first time I've > hear them called noisy. OK. So you have not heard that you can hear sounds coming from an engine with an aluminum block and heads, that aren't heard with a cast iron block, simply because of the nature of the difference in the metal properties? I mean I know they don't use aluminum for bells, probably becuase it wouldn't be the best material, but I know for sure they wouldn't use cast iron, because it won't ring at all, even if its made into a bell. Are you saying that a Corvette and my truck do not use the same block? >>It's with aluminum block and heads, 310hp, and it is noisey as hell if you ask >>me. The dealer tells me they can't hear anything unusual in it, shining me on >>as if I'm some kind of nut. I'm about ready to go over their head. > > Don't hold back, go over their heads, what do they know as a dealer. I plan to, I really didn't like the service manager and the response I got from him. You would think he'd know something about these motors, but he probably is where he is only because he's a good butt kisser. >>I hear a sound akin to someone banging a pot with a wooden spoon, or like the >>ringing a big bell off in the distance. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The subject said "noisey aluminum engines" and now you think it is only two? I said "engines," hoping that someone else had heard one of them and would reply. >>Sometimes my engine sounds as if its a diesel! For some reason, I can't get >>any information on the chevy truck groups, it's as if all the knowledgeable [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > So now you think it is the belt tension pulley and not the engine? I don't know what it is, or if it and the sound I hear are related. What does the > dealer say about the run out on the harmonic dampener? Did they think the motion > of the tension pulley was acceptable? The salesmen who sold it to me told me to bring it in when I can, I haven't been able to yet. > One thing that has happened to the Corvette LS series engine is the crank is > hollow and is filled with oil. There have been some of the retaining bolts on > the crank/dampener come loose and would cause the wobble that you speak of. I presume that would be after some mileage has accumulated? Mine has done it since I got it with 40 miles on it. It > would also have an apparent oil leak that would show up quickly in the front of > the engine. No, none of that. That loose dampener could create a unusual amount of belt slap and > make you tension pulley hop. It can also come off and exit through the radiator. I have 2,000 miles on the rig right now, and it hasn't seemed to have worsened, it's just that this motor gets noiser at times, and quieter other times. It really doesn't make any sense I know. > With the engine running and all of you fingers and clothing out of the belt path > does the belt seem to track smoothly? Does it run smooth for a while and then > seem to shutter and get noisy? With the engine off/not running can you turn the > large washer on the end of the crankshaft? If so you need to make the dealer > aware of that fact very soon. I'll look at this. > The six aluminum engines I've owned have been very quiet and smooth so I can't > explain why yours is not other than the loose dampener that happened to some a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > piston skirt that I thought they had corrected. That would show up most of the > time when it was cold and have no effect on the belt. I know about the piston slap thing. It was talked to death in the truck groups a couple of years ago, but haven't heard a thing on it concerning these later models. I have a co-worker who says his wifes Suburban, that has the same engine as mine is very noisy too. Much louder than mine he says. He also says he knows a tech personally, and he told him there was nothing wrong with them, that that is just how some of them sound. And, that they do get some complaints about it, but they've not been able to find anything wrong. Myself, having been a machinist for several years, I don't think you can have mechanical clanging noises going on and not have something going on thats either wearing or loose, and will soon come apart. I've heard engines over the past few years that you can't even tell are running they are so quiet. Should have never heard them I guess. Another thing that bothers me about this truck is its body lines. If you get a chance, look at the way the new power dome hoods fit to the fenders. Nearly all of them are out of alignment. As if they were using bad dies, or just didn't adjust them at final assembly. These are not the only troubling things, and I'm wondering if GM employees didn't get word of the huge layoffs and decide this was a year to not care, or even go as far as sabotage. I've seen it happen before in large manufacturing environments. >>Can anyone give me any insight into this stuff? >> >>Thanks, >>Copas > > Let us know what you find out. I will, thanks for your time. > OK. So you have not heard that you can hear sounds coming from an engine with > an aluminum block and heads, that aren't heard with a cast iron block, simply > because of the nature of the difference in the metal properties? Much less likely to have a noise with the present construction and the use of aluminum brackets and mounting points to stop the transfer of sound and vibration as was common with the old stamped and cast iron brackets. >I mean I know they don't use aluminum for bells, probably becuase it wouldn't >be the best material, but I know for sure they wouldn't use cast iron, because >it won't ring at all, even if its made into a bell. Actually that's incorrect and bells are most certainly made from cast iron and cast aluminum. We had one of iron on the farm to call in the workers for dinner, (yes, it's dinner on the farm, not lunch), when we were thrashing. http://www.lawnornamentsandfountains.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=18441 >Are you saying that a Corvette and my truck do not use the same block? Don't know, you didn't bother to say what engine it has, very possible that it's not the same block. Some think that if they say that it's a Corvette engine that it could make a sale for them, did it? I've been around the plant that cast the engine blocks since the late 40s and it would take a while to get the answer to that question. Most people have no concept as to the number of variations there are in the same displacement engines GM builds. As an added variation the entire drive train for the Corvette is a solid unit. Your truck is not. The transmission, clutch, and differential is in the back and is connected to the bellhousing/engine by a substantial aluminum torque tube. Your truck is not. The entire drive train is mounted in aluminum cradles on rubber cushions. Your truck is not. >> The subject said "noisey aluminum engines" and now you think it is only two? > > I said "engines," hoping that someone else had heard one of them and would > reply. I guess I shouldn't have replied because I have never heard the sound from an aluminum Corvette engine that you describe. >> So now you think it is the belt tension pulley and not the engine? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The salesmen who sold it to me told me to bring it in when I can, I haven't > been able to yet. So they've not looked at it and you are building a case before they do? > I have 2,000 miles on the rig right now, and it hasn't seemed to have > worsened, it's just that this motor gets noiser at times, and quieter other > times. It really doesn't make any sense I know. Unless the compressor clutch is rattling. > I know about the piston slap thing. It was talked to death in the truck > groups a couple of years ago, but haven't heard a thing on it concerning these [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with them, that that is just how some of them sound. And, that they do get > some complaints about it, but they've not been able to find anything wrong. Now there is some third hand information that I'd take to the bank. Much better than the baby sitters boy friends, mothers, plumbers, landlord said........ > Myself, having been a machinist for several years, I don't think you can have > mechanical clanging noises going on and not have something going on thats > either wearing or loose, and will soon come apart. You evidently haven't worked around a Minster, Acme Gridley, or a Wera profilator, they all sound like they are coming apart and seldom do. >I've heard engines over the past few years that you can't even tell are running >they are so quiet. Pretty much the way with the LS1 and LS2 Corvette engines I've owned have run, very smooth and quiet. That's before the Corsa exhaust was put on though. >Should have never heard them I guess. Another thing that bothers me about this >truck is its body lines. You didn't notice those before you bought it? I have them put it on a lift and look at everything before I finish the deal. In one case I waited on an ordered 1976 Corvette for months that was trash and got my deposit back and never did buy one for another 20 years. Should have done the same thing on the '63 when it came in but I was hot to drive another Corvette and just a bit stupid. The quality of the '60 and '70s I hope is a thing of the past. You have an investment in a vehicle, take the time to get it checked properly and document it in detail. Then do it again at another dealer, and then if you don't get any satisfaction push for arbitration quickly. GM tends not to come out to your house and work with you until you're happy, you need to push or they'll ignore you until you go away. >> Let us know what you find out. > I will, thanks for your time. SignatureDad 05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51 72 Shark Black/Black/4spd >>OK. So you have not heard that you can hear sounds coming from an engine with >>an aluminum block and heads, that aren't heard with a cast iron block, simply [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (yes, it's dinner on the farm, not lunch), when we were thrashing. > http://www.lawnornamentsandfountains.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=18441 That bell is made of aluminum. One of the common ways and simple ways to tell whether a casting is a casting of steel or cast iron is to suspend it and rap it with a hammer. Cast iron will ring dead, while cast still will ring. >>Are you saying that a Corvette and my truck do not use the same block? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that question. Most people have no concept as to the number of variations there > are in the same displacement engines GM builds. Ok, well I can't definitively say that it is, but having worked in manufacturing for many years, I do realize that for simple economics sake where literally millions of blocks are to be made that they are going to make them generally the same, even for different applications. Any following modification necessary for a particular application variation would be available on any of the blocks. > As an added variation the entire drive train for the Corvette is a solid unit. > Your truck is not. The transmission, clutch, and differential is in the back and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I guess I shouldn't have replied because I have never heard the sound from an > aluminum Corvette engine that you describe. I'm glad you replied. Your reply is very interesting, and has been helpful. >>>So now you think it is the belt tension pulley and not the engine? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > So they've not looked at it and you are building a case before they do? They had a whole team look at it after I brought it back within a couple of days, complaining about the noise. The service manager scoffed at my hearing, and said he couldn't fix something that wasn't broken, a different salesman scoffed at my concern, and both assured me "I was the only one who HAD EVER came in complaining about any noise in any engine in any of these Silverados. Even while they went on to say that aluminum will transmit more internal mehanical noise than a cast iron block, and that if I HAD a cast iron block, [which is apparently available in the same model year], I would not hear anything! The "certified technicians," [don't dare call them mechanics anymore], weren't even as old as my grandchildren, but one, when the honchos weren't around, said he could definately hear something unusual, and showed quite an interest in listening to it. He proclaimed to me that "he could definately hear it!"...and this after everyone else denied they could. He would not speak up when the honchos came back, and I didn't call him on it, not wishing to embarrass him or myself. And yes, I will build a case, as is the wise thing to do. And yes, I will get a lemon lawyer on it if they deny they hear it when I leave it, and yes, I will get the word out to as many folks as possible, EVEN if I have to create a website and submit key search words to google to get the word out. Just as much for the disrespect and mocking I received at the dealership for having purchased at $34,000 truck and had the gaul to complain about it's shoddiness. >>I have 2,000 miles on the rig right now, and it hasn't seemed to have >>worsened, it's just that this motor gets noiser at times, and quieter other >>times. It really doesn't make any sense I know. > > Unless the compressor clutch is rattling. I don't know what you are talking about here? The air conditioning? I know that this was an old inventory truck. Probably one of the first to hit the dealer. It was on sale in May this year for that reason, and I got a comparatively good deal on it. However this truck could have set on the lots, and been moved from lot to lot over the course of 10 months or so before they sold it, never being driven over 47 miles total in that time. Is it possible short drives, perhaps heavy footed, and perhaps heated by car jockies, or long periods of bearings or other mechanics sitting stale in one position for extended periods of time could have flattened some round that would not have been flattened with daily use? >>I know about the piston slap thing. It was talked to death in the truck >>groups a couple of years ago, but haven't heard a thing on it concerning these [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Now there is some third hand information that I'd take to the bank. Much better > than the baby sitters boy friends, mothers, plumbers, landlord said........ I completely understand what you are saying, but why say it? Not everyone is completely stupid. I don't see what interest my co-worker might have in protecting GM unless he were major stock holder, and I think it can safely be said he's probably not. >>Myself, having been a machinist for several years, I don't think you can have >>mechanical clanging noises going on and not have something going on thats >>either wearing or loose, and will soon come apart. > > You evidently haven't worked around a Minster, Acme Gridley, or a Wera > profilator, they all sound like they are coming apart and seldom do. Yes I have, but you are right, they do do a lot of clanging and banging, but you know as well as I do that these noises are from conditions made when factoring in the movement and machining of external components added to the machine, and so they would not exist without that addition. I did a thorough rebuild on a worn out six, or an eight, [can't remember its been so long ago], spindle Acme Gridley that wouldn't hold tolerance no matter what you did, and put it back together again. >>I've heard engines over the past few years that you can't even tell are running >>they are so quiet. > > Pretty much the way with the LS1 and LS2 Corvette engines I've owned have run, > very smooth and quiet. That's before the Corsa exhaust was put on though. I don't know what Corsa is, but I did ask the salesman as I test drove the truck if they put cheap mufflers on them. You could hear the rumble, he said, "hell no, do you realize every emissions component all the way to the tip of the exhaust pipe on this truck is guaranteed 100% for eight years?!" I realized then that though he didn't say so, that people who bought these apparently just wanted others in the next lane to know they had V8's in them. >>Should have never heard them I guess. Another thing that bothers me about this >>truck is its body lines. > > You didn't notice those before you bought it? No, I didn't notice that when I bought it, does that make it my problem? I have them put it on a lift and > look at everything before I finish the deal. Few persons I expect, are expert on what to look for, nor expectant of what could be "not right" on a new vehicle, and I would think you'd probably know that. You must know GM knows it. In one case I waited on an ordered > 1976 Corvette for months that was trash Trash how? and got my deposit back and never did > buy one for another 20 years. Should have done the same thing on the '63 when it > came in but I was hot to drive another Corvette and just a bit stupid. I feel similar on my decision to have bought this truck. What were wrong with the Corvettes? The > quality of the '60 and '70s I hope is a thing of the past. You mean when you could actually lean up against body sheet metal on a car and not dent it? Or expect that the paint would stay on nearly forever? Or that they'd start in -20 degree weather without block heaters? > You have an investment in a vehicle, take the time to get it checked properly > and document it in detail. Then do it again at another dealer, and then if you > don't get any satisfaction push for arbitration quickly. GM tends not to come > out to your house and work with you until you're happy, you need to push or > they'll ignore you until you go away. I believe you are right, and I will do so. When you say document it in detail, are you speaking of sort of keeping a diary of your experience both with the vehicle and dealer response? I've done that. I only wish I could get them to document the fact that I brought it in and how they responded. In the seventies, I bought my last "new" Chevrolet prior to this one. It also had an aluminum block, but cast iron head. At that time, the warranty was 10,000 or one year. At 10,500 the second motor threw a piston and rod into the pan and they weren't going to replace that engine with a third. I dogged them, with a hand written letter to the top and they did. >>>Let us know what you find out. > >>I will, thanks for your time. Let me just recap a few things. 1. Cast aluminum engines are not more prone to be noisy, or be heard easier, I could care less about what the dealer told you. 2. It is not true that an aluminum engine would be easier to hear a noise than if it was an iron block, pure poppycock. 3. Cast steel, cast iron, cast aluminum, cast brass, cast bronze bells will ring. Not sure a cast nodular iron bell would, completely different material that is used in machinery frames. 4. In the past the engines were machined to fit everything, not true today with the flexible planning and machining processes. 5. Yes, the air-conditioning compressor clutch can make a slapping noise. 6. Damage by a heavy footed driver before you got it is iffy with the present rev limiters. Only damage I've seen myself is from crushed lime stone long term storage parking lots etching the brake rotors, (the same as the clutch face on your compressor clutch). 7. Your co-worker was not protecting GM, how did you make that determination? 8. Machinery can make some noise and run for extended periods of time. In this case you don't like it, is it detrimental to the machine, most likely not. 9. Mufflers are built to pass volumes of hot air and gasses and the easier they do that the better the engine works. If there is a noise involved with that function in a truck it is expected. Are they cheap? Yes, all parts come from the lowest bidder or the only place they can get it. 10. Is the poor fit your problem? Yes, have it corrected. 11. The '76 Corvette had mat showing or bad paint in 11 places with overspray on the hood from a left front fender repaint at the factory. 12. The '63 had a cracked rear journal that allowed the flywheel to flutter whipping the main shaft out of the transmission. They just replaced the transmission 4 times without checking the engine. The frame was way out of tolerance and it would eat a set of 4 tires in a few thousand miles. 13. Sheet metal hasn't changed that much in 50 years. Do you mean like the '70s Ford fenders that rusted through before they were delivered? 14. Paint today will outlast the paint of the '70s any day of the century. 15. Only once did I have a car not start when it was below zero and that was in the winter of 1962 and my wife never set the choke. 16. The block you are referring to had a die cast block with a high silicone content and they etched the bores to allow the rings to ride on the hard silicone. It's failures were not all the fault of the design or the drivers but was to new to succeed in our driving environment. Bad move on GMs part. Good luck, Dad >---snip--- I would see a different dealer with my problem. however, Dad is really very knowledgeable when it comes to Vettes. You are probably getting the best advice you could possibly get on this group. g'luck with your problem Signature"Key" ===== maybe you have the duramax/allison combo? > Hi, I don't have a Corvette, but I understand my 2006 > Silverado has a version of the Corvette motor. It's with [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Thanks, > Copas
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