Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Corvette / December 2006
DAWN, clean to a fault.
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Dad - 15 Dec 2006 17:16 GMT Since I may have been guilty of starting this silly subject by stating that I use Dawn to wash my car here is some of what is said about Dawn soap on http://www.dawn-dish.com/
Don't put the Dawn away after the dishes are done. Dawn is great for all sorts of other chores. Try it diluted in water to clean appliance exteriors, chandeliers and light fixtures, painted woodwork, and more. -- -- Note: Painted, as in what is used to coat sheet metal and plastic automotive parts. In this case they recommend it for some of the toughest, appliances, and weaker, woodwork. Automotive paint falls in between those finishes.
Dawn Complete is a breakthrough dish liquid that delivers excellent tough-food cleaning technology while improving the look and feel of your hands with a formula that contains vitamin E- and B5-enhanced microgels. Who ever thought doing the dishes might lead to more beautiful hands? -- -- Might be gentle enough to wash your Ford.
Make Dawn Dishwashing Liquid/Antibacterial Hand Soap part of your routine handwashing. It's great every day and is always ready for those greasy challenges. Tough on grease—and bacteria on hands! -- -- Should be safe enough to kiss your car goodnight.
Dawn is the product of choice for major rehabilitation organizations to clean oil off birds injured in oil spills. -- -- Come to think of it I haven't seen any ducks that shine like they have any wax on them. Must be gentle or the duck would squawk about it to the news media.
Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is confidential. You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent Association's website at http://www.sdahq.org. They provide a list of general ingredients commonly used in hand dishwashing products. Once you arrive at their site, choose Dishwashing, Fact Sheet Notebook, then Hand Dishwashing Products. Scroll down the page a bit and you will find the ingredient list.
Does Procter & Gamble recommend that it be used as a car wash soap, no, can it be used to wash a car, yes. Why would they if it cut into the car wash soap industry they are connected with? Surfactants are the main active ingredients in dish washing soap along with oil, sometime vegetable oil, and both are used in liquid car wash soap.
As a side note even though Dawn also contains alcohol you should not drink it, just a thought, Windex has a higher quantity but still not drinkable. What I'm saying is the kind of ingredients makes the product, how much dictates its use.
© 2006 Procter & Gamble. All Rights Reserved. Dawn® is a registered trademark of Procter & Gamble. All copy and claims valid in the U.S.
 Signature Dad 05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51 72 Shark Black/Black/4spd
TCW - 15 Dec 2006 23:36 GMT > Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is confidential. > You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent Association's website at > http://www.sdahq.org. They provide a list of general ingredients commonly > used in hand dishwashing products. Once you arrive at their site, choose > Dishwashing, Fact Sheet Notebook, then Hand Dishwashing Products. Scroll > down the page a bit and you will find the ingredient list. For arguments sake here's what Sal Zaino says in his instructions for preping a car for his excellent polish.
"I would definitely recommend you remove the wax buildup on your paint. Just use Liquid Dawn (hand dishwashing liquid) as a car wash. It has a high alkaline content which cuts right thru carnauba wax, paraffin, silicone oils, etc. This will get your paint finish squeeky clean and wax free."
Tom
Dad - 16 Dec 2006 00:09 GMT >> Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is confidential. You >> may want to visit the Soap & Detergent Association's website at [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Tom Does that mean that it won't harm the finish?? Who would have ever guessed that, and that added alcohol does make it squeaky clean. Used to use Zaino that people gave me at the shop but it is little better than just doing a good polish and wax. WAY over priced and just poured their cleaners into the gallon can I get cleaners in, same results. Thanks for the reminder.
Andy - 16 Dec 2006 00:32 GMT >> Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is confidential. >> You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent Association's website at [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >alkaline content which cuts right thru carnauba wax, paraffin, silicone >oils, etc. This will get your paint finish squeeky clean and wax free." Dawn removes wax, my point exactly!
Dad - 16 Dec 2006 00:52 GMT >>For arguments sake here's what Sal Zaino says in his instructions for >>preping a car for his excellent polish. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dawn removes wax, my point exactly! Actually here's what you said - - "Its not an old wifes tale. You shouldn't use a chamois either, you should use terry cloth or microfiber towels to dry a car. Yes it takes of everything then leaves a residue. You clearly don't have an understanding of how dish soap works on automotive finsishes, but you won't change because your too cheap."
What I'm trying to figure out is how "it takes of(f) everything and leaves a residue". How do you take off everything and leave something on the surface??
Is that what it does on your Corvette?
Andy - 16 Dec 2006 02:04 GMT >What I'm trying to figure out is how "it takes of(f) everything and leaves a >residue". How do you take off everything and leave something on the surface?? I would have thought it would be clear. It would leave a residue AFTER it takes off whats on it. So if you still don't understand that concept I don't know what else there is.
I said that it MAY leave a residue.
The only thing I am refering to is WAX. Dawn takes off WAX. Thats the only thing. If your goal is to take off the wax for whatever reason, then it doesn't matter if you use Dawn.
Does it do that on my Corvette, well I wouldn't use Dawn to start with. I have seen it (Dawn) strip off wax on other cars.
If you are talking about Dawn damaging the Paint / Clearcoat then thats different. I don't think Dawn would damage Paint or Clearcoat.
This is going to be my last comment on this topic, it's time to move on.
Dad - 16 Dec 2006 02:34 GMT >>What I'm trying to figure out is how "it takes of(f) everything and leaves a >>residue". How do you take off everything and leave something on the surface?? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > This is going to be my last comment on this topic, it's time to move > on. You're so easy, but do enjoy your Corvette. ;-))
benf802961@aol.com - 16 Dec 2006 06:34 GMT Dawn is strong stuff. If you wash your Vette with Dawn I would rinse car afterwards to remove the Dawn. Wash the dishes a few times using Dawn . It would leave your hands extremely dry. Thats why you see women use gloves while washing dishes.
My Name Is Nobody - 24 Dec 2006 22:24 GMT > Dawn is strong stuff. If you wash your Vette with Dawn I would rinse > car afterwards to remove the Dawn. Wash the dishes a few times using > Dawn . It would leave your hands extremely dry. Thats why you see women > use gloves while washing dishes. Men must just like dry hands? You don't see men use gloves while washing dishes?
Stephen - 16 Dec 2006 09:33 GMT > "I would definitely recommend you remove the wax buildup on your paint. > Just > use Liquid Dawn (hand dishwashing liquid) as a car wash. It has a high > alkaline content which cuts right thru carnauba wax, paraffin, silicone > oils, etc. This will get your paint finish squeeky clean and wax free." Then they go on to say "Do not make a habit of washing your car with Dawn! " http://www.lazaino.com/ApplyZaino.htm
 Signature All the best,
Stephen
Dad - 16 Dec 2006 13:13 GMT >> "I would definitely recommend you remove the wax buildup on your paint. >> Just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Then they go on to say "Do not make a habit of washing your car with Dawn! " > http://www.lazaino.com/ApplyZaino.htm You mean like in use our stuff at a real soaker of a price?
Stephen - 16 Dec 2006 19:54 GMT > > Then they go on to say "Do not make a habit of washing your car with > > Dawn! " > > http://www.lazaino.com/ApplyZaino.htm > > You mean like in use our stuff at a real soaker of a price? No doubt it's in their best interest, in fact they need to believe "specialized" products are better. Yet common sense cuts through the hype. All soap removes wax. I don't for a second belive that there's a soap that can do a good job at taking away the dirt but not some of the wax.
 Signature All the best,
Stephen
Tom in Missouri - 16 Dec 2006 23:29 GMT It is interesting you prefer Dawn to do the cleaning, Dad. They hype how mild it is with the cleaning of waterfowl in the oil spills. However, I've always wondered about that, because one of the primary needs of the cleaning is to remove a very hard to remove petroleum product.
I used to use Ivory dish washing liquid to clean bare engine blocks for rebuilding. Talk about strip any oil away. A block would rust before your eyes while washing. We used to wash and rinse and have someone spraying WD40 as soon as the hose was off an area.
>> > Then they go on to say "Do not make a habit of washing your car with >> > Dawn! " [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > All soap removes wax. I don't for a second belive that there's a soap that > can do a good job at taking away the dirt but not some of the wax. Preston - 16 Dec 2006 10:33 GMT > Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is > confidential. You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent > Association's website at http://www.sdahq.org. They provide a list of > general ingredients commonly used in hand dishwashing products. We don't get Dawn on this side of the pond afaik, but I wouldn't use it if we did simply because of the (probable) salt content. Get some of that trapped in a crevice somewhere & it'll kick-off the rusting process in no time, & make aluminium go furry.
It may not be an issue if you always rinse with a few hundred gallons of water to make absolutely certain it's all out, but that kind of defeats the object of using something ecologically friendly in the first place.
<Corvette Content>
After much fiddling with wires & spraying of WD40, I now have a (nearly) full set of electrics & an engine that turns over. I'll syphon out the very old & smelly fuel this weekend, put some fresh in, & see if it'll start. I'm anticipating much backfiring...
</CC>
 Signature Preston.
Dad - 16 Dec 2006 13:11 GMT >> Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is >> confidential. You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > We don't get Dawn on this side of the pond afaik, but I wouldn't use it > if we did simply because of the (probable) salt content. You're kidding, right?
>Get some of > that trapped in a crevice somewhere & it'll kick-off the rusting [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > </CC> Preston - 17 Dec 2006 11:15 GMT > > > Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is > > > confidential. You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You're kidding, right? No - honest. Get some salty suds trapped in a crevice like a windscreen surround/chassis section/door channel etc & it will accelerate corrosion. There's many a motorbike out there with furry white alloy parts & rust patches in engine casing crevices for precisely this reason.
 Signature Preston.
Dad - 17 Dec 2006 13:48 GMT >> > > Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is >> > > confidential. You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > parts & rust patches in engine casing crevices for precisely this > reason. You're saying the salt content is higher in the soap than it is in the water you're using? What percent in each? Where does it show up the most on your Corvette? How do you discern the difference between acid rain and salt in your soap/water/air? Do you live on the coast in the UK?
Preston - 17 Dec 2006 15:12 GMT > >>> > Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is > >>> > confidential. You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > acid rain and salt in your soap/water/air? Do you live on the coast > in the UK? If I had time to research answers to all those questions I would, but I haven't - all spare time's allocated to restoring that rusting lump in the garage! The last one's easy though - no (unfortunately). Have you /seen/ the price of houses on the coast here...
My point though is that dish-washing liquids do generally have a very high salt content, so I personally choose not to use them when there are salt-free alternatives. Every little helps, right? If they work for you then fine, but a lot of people don't know about the salt, & may not be as thorough at rinsing.
Some people even use normal detergent as a lubricant when changing tyres on alloy wheels - then wonder why their rims start to flake apart. Plain water & acid rain don't cause that.
 Signature Preston.
Dad - 17 Dec 2006 17:21 GMT >> >>> > Ingredient information (other than what's on the label) is >> >>> > confidential. You may want to visit the Soap & Detergent [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > haven't - all spare time's allocated to restoring that rusting lump in > the garage! Since you stated it had a salt content I just assumed you had the answers, or were you just guessing? What is the lump that is rusting in the garage? That shouldn't use much of your time to answer. The is a web site that tells the 10 best uses for Dawn and one of those, #10, is for rust prvention, go figure. What has been affected on your Corvette?
>The last one's easy though - no (unfortunately). Have you > /seen/ the price of houses on the coast here... Yes, last August. Why, have you one to sell?
> My point though is that dish-washing liquids do generally have a very > high salt content, so I personally choose not to use them when there > are salt-free alternatives. What is the high content? Actually a high content, over 3% by volume will kill its ability to suds.
>Every little helps, right? If they work for > you then fine, but a lot of people don't know about the salt, & may not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tyres on alloy wheels - then wonder why their rims start to flake > apart. Plain water & acid rain don't cause that. Standard practice around here and it's also used to prevent galling of stainless steel threads.
Here is some more baseless fears that are passed around the internet - http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/dawn.asp
Preston - 18 Dec 2006 11:27 GMT > > > You're saying the salt content is higher in the soap than it is in > > > the water you're using? What percent in each? Where does it show [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Since you stated it had a salt content I just assumed you had the > answers, or were you just guessing? Partly guessing as the Dawn website doesn't list the ingredients. It does however link to another site with 'typical contents', one of which is salt, & I thought it was common knowledge these things contain salt. The contents posted by 'No Vette Yet' list four different types of sodium, two of which are 2nd & 3rd in the list (after water). As these things are usually listed in order of quantity, it seems a fairly safe bet that it's pretty salty.
> What is the lump that is rusting > in the garage? That shouldn't use much of your time to answer. My '81 'vette that's been sat in a field for the last few years.
> The is > a web site that tells the 10 best uses for Dawn and one of those, > #10, is for rust prvention, go figure. I can't figure that - it makes no sense whatsoever. But if it's on the web it must be true...
> What has been affected on your Corvette? Everything - but that's due to it sitting outside in Wales for several years.
> > The last one's easy though - no (unfortunately). Have you > > /seen/ the price of houses on the coast here... > > Yes, last August. Why, have you one to sell? Eh? I just said I don't live on the coast.
> > My point though is that dish-washing liquids do generally have a > > very high salt content, so I personally choose not to use them when > > there are salt-free alternatives. > > What is the high content? 'Some'. If 'No Vette Yet's' list of contents is in order (which would seem to be the case given water's first & colouring last), the 2nd & 3rd highest constituents of Dawn are sodium, with two different types further down the list. So sodium is the 2nd highest constituent after water.
> > Some people even use normal detergent as a lubricant when changing > > tyres on alloy wheels - then wonder why their rims start to flake [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Here is some more baseless fears that are passed around the internet > - http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/dawn.asp As you say "more" baseless fears, I presume you think mine are baseless? That may be true, but it does contain salt - fact (most detergents use it as the surfactant). And salt does increase corrosion in steel & aluminium - fact.
I don't know why you're getting so defensive, especially as I haven't slated you for using it - just said that I choose not to, & stated why.
 Signature Preston.
Dad - 18 Dec 2006 19:13 GMT Snip
> As you say "more" baseless fears, I presume you think mine are > baseless? That may be true, but it does contain salt - fact (most [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I don't know why you're getting so defensive, especially as I haven't > slated you for using it - just said that I choose not to, & stated why. What is NaCl? Is there any in the Dawn soap, I don't think so. Salts are often grouped according to the negative ion they contain, e.g., bicarbonate or carbonate, chlorate, chloride, cyanide, fulminate, nitrate, phosphate, silicate, sulfate, or sulfide. Which one of those are in Dawn and are they corrosive? You can pay attention to novetyet but it wouldn't hurt to check what it actually does have in it and its actual affect on materials. Call it defensive if you wish but I try to deal in reality and not an old wives tale and/or hearsay.
Did any of that damage to your 81 Corvette happen because of the salt in soap? Doubtful if it had anything to do with the white growth in the crevices of the example you gave either, more like trapped moisture.
CardsFan - 18 Dec 2006 21:23 GMT > Snip >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > soap? Doubtful if it had anything to do with the white growth in the > crevices of the example you gave either, more like trapped moisture. The second "No Vette Yet" post below does list sodium chloride as an ingredient. It also lists Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Pareth-23 Sulfate, and Sodium Cumenesulfonate, whatever the heck those are.
However, in Section XI the MSDS says while these detergents may be irritating, they are "not expected to be corrosive." It says they are expected to be emetic, so if a Corvette washed with one throws up, that's SOP.
FWIW, when necessary, mine is currently being washed with Armor All Power Wash Gel (won as a door prize at at car show) and dried with "The Absorber". Armor All's website claims it "Won't strip wax like dish soap" http://www.armorall.com/prod_powerwash.html
AJM '93 Ruby coupe, 6 sp (both tops)
Preston - 19 Dec 2006 08:35 GMT > > As you say "more" baseless fears, I presume you think mine are > > baseless? That may be true, but it does contain salt - fact (most [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What is NaCl? Sodium Chloride aka table salt.
> Is there any in the Dawn soap, I don't think so. Yes there is, according to No Vette Yet's list of ingredients. As I said before, the Dawn site doesn't list the ingredients, but links to another site with 'common ingredients' of dishwasher detergent, one of which is salt.
There's a simple way to find out if it's a potential issue or not. If someone who's got some fills a couple of jars with water, one containing Dawn, & puts an un-plated steel nail in each, we'll have an answer in a few days.
> Salts > are often grouped according to the negative ion they contain, e.g., > bicarbonate or carbonate, chlorate, chloride, cyanide, fulminate, > nitrate, phosphate, silicate, sulfate, or sulfide. Which one of those > are in Dawn and are they corrosive? Sodium Chloride is in Dawn & Sodium Chloride is corrosive. Therefore Dawn is *potentially* corrosive, which is all I've been saying. The other Sodiums may also be corrosive, but I don't know.
> You can pay attention to novetyet > but it wouldn't hurt to check what it actually does have in it and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Did any of that damage to your 81 Corvette happen because of the salt > in soap? I have no idea, not knowing what previous owners did with it. The vast majority's down to it being sat outside in a damp environment for a number of years though.
 Signature Preston.
No Vette Yet - 19 Dec 2006 12:14 GMT >> > As you say "more" baseless fears, I presume you think mine are >> > baseless? That may be true, but it does contain salt - fact (most [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >Dawn is *potentially* corrosive, which is all I've been saying. The >other Sodiums may also be corrosive, but I don't know. Whoa.... the MSDS says that Dawn is NOT corrosive.
Besides if it were, wouldn't it be advised not to use it on some pots due to a corrosive nature ??
Preston - 19 Dec 2006 12:36 GMT > > Sodium Chloride is in Dawn & Sodium Chloride is corrosive. Therefore > > Dawn is potentially corrosive, which is all I've been saying. The > > other Sodiums may also be corrosive, but I don't know. > > Whoa.... the MSDS says that Dawn is NOT corrosive. I suspect their definition of corrosive is somewhat different to what we're discussing. E.g. everyone knows that water causes steel to rust, & water's the main ingredient in Dawn, therefore Dawn will make steel rust if left in contact long enough (unless it's got built-in rust inhibitors which seems highly unlikely). Any salt content will dramatically reduce the time needed for that to happen.
> Besides if it were, wouldn't it be advised not to use it on some pots > due to a corrosive nature ?? People generally rinse & dry their pots after washing them. They also rinse & sometimes dry their cars/motorbikes, but cars especially have lots of inaccessible areas that may retain some suds, hence the potential for corrosion. I can't believe I'm the only person who sees this as a possibility. Maybe I'm insane & should just kill myself forthwith.
 Signature Preston.
Stephen - 19 Dec 2006 14:01 GMT > I can't believe I'm the only person who sees > this as a possibility. Maybe I'm insane & should just kill myself > forthwith. Why would they add salt to diswashing soap in the first place?
 Signature All the best,
Stephen
Preston - 19 Dec 2006 14:12 GMT > > I can't believe I'm the only person who sees > > this as a possibility. Maybe I'm insane & should just kill myself > > forthwith. > > Why would they add salt to diswashing soap in the first place? Mainly as a surfactant I believe. Same reason you used to put salt in dishwashers before the tablets came along I guess.
 Signature Preston.
Stephen - 20 Dec 2006 03:32 GMT > > Why would they add salt to diswashing soap in the first place? > > Mainly as a surfactant I believe. Same reason you used to put salt in > dishwashers before the tablets came along I guess. I was thinking it was to adjust the pH?
 Signature All the best,
Stephen
RicSeyler - 19 Dec 2006 21:53 GMT Water in itself is actually considered corrosive.
> > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >
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Preston - 20 Dec 2006 08:40 GMT > Water in itself is actually considered corrosive. It causes corrosion for sure, but I doubt it's considered corrosive by the chemicals industry when labelling things (or compiling MSDS). E.g. I don't think water tankers have to display a 'Corrosive Liquid' plate like many of those tankers you see driving down the road.
> > > > Sodium Chloride is in Dawn & Sodium Chloride is corrosive. > > > > Therefore Dawn is potentially corrosive, which is all I've been [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > built-in rust inhibitors which seems highly unlikely). Any salt > > content will dramatically reduce the time needed for that to happen.
 Signature Preston.
RicSeyler - 20 Dec 2006 16:34 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >like many of those tankers you see driving down the road. > Yea, I was referring to the scientific community. No, there isn't one of those "burning hand" stickers on the Abita truck :-)
> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >
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Dad - 19 Dec 2006 13:43 GMT >> Is there any in the Dawn soap, I don't think so. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > majority's down to it being sat outside in a damp environment for a > number of years though. Snipped for brevity only - -
Since I already know from years of use and you are guessing and listening to old wives tales, let us know how your nail test turns out.
Tom in Missouri - 19 Dec 2006 15:28 GMT Reality check, guys.
First, when you wash any car, with any type of soap, you are using a small amount. Seems like most instructions are a capful per gallon or such, so what do you have, maybe an ounce or two per gallon of water?
Second, not all of these Sodium compounds are going to be corrosive to metal. Without a chemistry background, you really don't know what they are. Only Sodium Chloride (NaCl) do you know is just plain salt. And it is usually down the list so in one ounce of soap, you have what, maybe .1 ounce or less. And you don't know what the chemical composition will be after it contacts the compounds in the dirt and grime on your car. They could all become completely harmless within a few minutes of contact for all you know.
Then you are spreading that over an entire car.
Finally, you are diluting it further with not one gallon but lots of gallons of water when you rinse with the water hose. (You do rinse, don't you?)
So your nail in a jar needs to have the 1 ounce of Dawn in a 5 gallon bucket of water and mixed thoroughly. Then scoop your Dawn/water mix from that. Then remove the nail after 20 minutes. After all, when you wash the car, do you totally immerse it in water and leave it for a few days, or is it all run across the outside and then dried?
Dropping that nail in the jar and leaving it a few days (let's say 3) is equal to 3 days x 24 hours = 72 hours / .25 hours per car wash = 288 car washes. Now if you wash once a week, that is over 5-1/2 years (5.538 years).
How many of you actually wash once a week? Maybe once every two weeks? So that is 11 years of washing to equal the nail for 3 days.
Now, here is the kicker. --- Is your car bare metal? Or is it painted.
I don't know what started this thread, but I suspect it was something like saying use Dawn or similar to wash the car initially that was found on the side of a mountain to clean of the crud off of it. I doubt there was ever any suggestion to wash the car weekly for the next 5 years with Dawn.
When you pull a car out of a nasty environment where it has been stored poorly for several years, sometimes you have to be a bit brutal in the cleanup process to achieve a goal. After all, when you paint a car, you use water and sandpaper as part of the process to get it to shine.
I doubt anyone would say using sandpaper on paint was not brutal. I doubt anyone would say using Dawn one time was anywhere as near abrasive as that.
With Preston living in Wales, I bet the salt content in the air is more than in the Dawn soap and water solution he will use on the car unless he lives up on Mount Snowdon.
I'm SURE there is more salt content in the dirt and grime you get from daily driving.
> There's a simple way to find out if it's a potential issue or not. If > someone who's got some fills a couple of jars with water, one [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > majority's down to it being sat outside in a damp environment for a > number of years though. Andy - 19 Dec 2006 15:53 GMT >Reality check, guys. > >First, when you wash any car, with any type of soap, you are using a small >amount. Seems like most instructions are a capful per gallon or such, so >what do you have, maybe an ounce or two per gallon of water? Car wash used at 1oz per gallon
>Second, not all of these Sodium compounds are going to be corrosive to >metal. Without a chemistry background, you really don't know what they are. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >contacts the compounds in the dirt and grime on your car. They could all >become completely harmless within a few minutes of contact for all you know. Salts are not different Sodiums but different Clorides (such as Potassium Cloride)
>I don't know what started this thread, but I suspect it was something like >saying use Dawn or similar to wash the car initially that was found on the >side of a mountain to clean of the crud off of it. It was started because Dad refused to belive that Dawn removes wax from cars. Then someone said they used Dawn for a well over 10 years and thier cars looked as good as new, yet they still haven't shown any photographs of said car. Then it spiraled out of control from there.
Dad - 19 Dec 2006 17:23 GMT > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:22 GMT, "Tom in Missouri" <toomuch@spam.com> Snip
>>I don't know what started this thread, but I suspect it was something like >>saying use Dawn or similar to wash the car initially that was found on the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and thier cars looked as good as new, yet they still haven't shown any > photographs of said car. Then it spiraled out of control from there. Not really the way I take it, it started because Andy and others think that the car will melt if you use Dawn to wash it as I do and then the statement was made that I was cheap. Never said it didn't take wax off, I said it takes no more off then your chamois does, remember now? Picture can't be put on this non-binary news group, plus I don't need the proof of what my car looks like, but someone else will sit on their hands and do nothing to back up what they have said.
Here's the test, as some one stated to put a nail in Dawn and see what it does. So Tom has said 3 days, is that an acceptable amount of time for the neigh-sayers? If so I have four (4) vials filled with Dawn, tap water, and two (2) other look alike liquids. In each I've put a new nail right out of its original box but spun in a drill on a belt sander to produce bare metal. Vials are labeled A, B, C, & D and when the test is over new pictures of the nails will be taken and then you can identify the one that came from Dawn and tap water. At that point I'll tell you what was in each vial. Will try to put them up on photobucket.com. Forgot the registration and seldom use it, plus it has my email so it won't let me use that email, working at it.
 Signature Dad 05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51 72 Shark Black/Black/4spd
Andy - 19 Dec 2006 18:23 GMT >> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:22 GMT, "Tom in Missouri" <toomuch@spam.com> >Snip [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Not really the way I take it, it started because Andy and others think that the >car will melt if you use Dawn to wash it as I do... Melt, are you crazy? I said lots of times dont use Dawn because it removes the wax.. that's it..period, no more. Then you go on and on and on about how it doesnt, then fess up that it does... AGH.
Dad - 19 Dec 2006 20:10 GMT >>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:22 GMT, "Tom in Missouri" <toomuch@spam.com> >>Snip [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > removes the wax.. that's it..period, no more. Then you go on and on > and on about how it doesnt, then fess up that it does... AGH. Your selective reading skills are at a peak today Andy, said from the beginning that it removes no more than your chamois. Threw the "melt" in there to see if you read anything at all. Then there was the side stepping about how it would leave a residue. Keep on track if you can. I see you avoided saying whether 3 days was an acceptable time. You must be waiting until it's over to say I told you so when you said nothing again.
Already have discoloration in the bottom of one vial.
 Signature Dad 05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51 72 Shark Black/Black/4spd
Andy - 19 Dec 2006 20:40 GMT >>>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:22 GMT, "Tom in Missouri" <toomuch@spam.com> >>>Snip [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >days was an acceptable time. You must be waiting until it's over to say I told >you so when you said nothing again. I wish you would make up your mind. I said it MAY leave a residue not that it does.
I wish you would make up your mind, do you think it removes wax, or do you think it doesn't remove wax from an automotive finish?
Preston - 20 Dec 2006 09:06 GMT > 2006 12:23:41 -0500, "Dad" <knockers@fisher.net> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You must be waiting until it's over to say I told you so when you > said nothing again. To be fair I don't think Andy's said anything about the corrosion aspect - I think I'm the only one with that particular concern.
Ignoring all the side-tracking typical of a usenet debate, Andy's main point is that Dawn strips wax, & that seems to be backed-up by the links posted. Therefore it's not a good idea to use it regularly, possibly unless you always dry with a chamois, which may or may not remove just as much wax. Maybe.
> Already have discoloration in the bottom of one vial. That'll be the one you filled with battery acid, yes? ;-)
 Signature Preston.
No Vette Yet - 20 Dec 2006 12:27 GMT >> 2006 12:23:41 -0500, "Dad" <knockers@fisher.net> wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >That'll be the one you filled with battery acid, yes? ;-) thanks. Now with all these posts, I forgot what you said was the problem washing with Dawn? Can you remind me <grin>? thanks again.
Preston - 20 Dec 2006 12:49 GMT > >> I see you avoided saying whether 3 days was an acceptable time. > >> You must be waiting until it's over to say I told you so when you [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > thanks. Now with all these posts, I forgot what you said was the > problem washing with Dawn? Can you remind me <grin>? It turns your Corvette into a Skoda & makes you sterile. Probably.
 Signature Preston.
No Vette Yet - 20 Dec 2006 13:19 GMT >> >> I see you avoided saying whether 3 days was an acceptable time. >> >> You must be waiting until it's over to say I told you so when you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >It turns your Corvette into a Skoda & makes you sterile. Probably. Inotherwords, don't take your position on Dawn serious ?? Ok, I won't.
Dad - 20 Dec 2006 22:51 GMT >> thanks. Now with all these posts, I forgot what you said was the >> problem washing with Dawn? Can you remind me <grin>? > > It turns your Corvette into a Skoda & makes you sterile. Probably. Thought he did drive a Skoda, the car should be in the automobile hall of fame.
No Vette Yet - 21 Dec 2006 05:06 GMT >>> thanks. Now with all these posts, I forgot what you said was the >>> problem washing with Dawn? Can you remind me <grin>? >> >> It turns your Corvette into a Skoda & makes you sterile. Probably. > >Thought he did drive a Skoda, the car should be in the automobile hall of fame. Nope not me. Why hall of fame?? Prefer to see the Lincoln Mark II or III in the hall of fame... I always liked those cars but don't see them much now.
Dad - 20 Dec 2006 22:49 GMT >> 2006 12:23:41 -0500, "Dad" <knockers@fisher.net> wrote: Snip
> Ignoring all the side-tracking typical of a usenet debate, Andy's main > point is that Dawn strips wax, & that seems to be backed-up by the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > That'll be the one you filled with battery acid, yes? ;-) Never denied that it removed wax, only stated it doesn't take any more off than does a chamois. When ask for some facts all that was offered was that it was said or read some place with no definitive proof. No biggie but it was then pushed as fact with no further effort to back it up. We'll see, I still have the '98 front bumper cover that a deer trampled on before I ran over him and that will make a nice piece to test some of the Horrible Dawn (You'll shoot your eye out", soap. Just need to figure out a credible way to test it.
As far as putting acid in one vial, no, but it sure looks like it could be. Right now I have flaked red rust, nothing much, yellow tint in the bottom, and small rust patches. Also started one with the same prepared nail in Coke, classic. That's my vice, coke-a-cola, don't smoke and seldom drink. Except last night at a party in Michigan, so I had to get a room as I won't drive after one drink.
Did get my pass word to work on photobucket but just got home and haven't put up the pictures yet of the car Andy needs and the test that I decided to run just to see what the soaps would actually do to a nail.
What a party - --, bed time is going to be early tonight.
 Signature Dad 05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51 72 Shark Black/Black/4spd
Preston - 20 Dec 2006 08:57 GMT > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:22 GMT, "Tom in Missouri" > > <toomuch@spam.com> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Not really the way I take it, it started because Andy and others > think that the car will melt if you use Dawn to wash it Heh - nice!
> Here's the test, as some one stated to put a nail in Dawn and see > what it does. That would've been me. I would try it myself, but like I said, we don't get Dawn over here.
> So Tom has said 3 days, is that an acceptable amount of > time for the neigh-sayers? Not really imo. As I've stated all along, I see it as a potential issue only if some detergent ends up in an inaccessible area such as a frame rail/windscreen surround etc, where it doesn't get rinsed out. So it could sit there at least until the car is rinsed after the next wash, at which time the same thing may happen again, compounding the problem. Or it may get rinsed out - who knows? So I'd say check them after 3 days, but let the experiment run for a few weeks seeing as you've gone to the trouble of setting it up.
> If so I have four (4) vials filled with > Dawn, tap water, and two (2) other look alike liquids. In each I've [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > up on photobucket.com. Forgot the registration and seldom use it, > plus it has my email so it won't let me use that email, working at it. I can put them up on my webspace if you want to email them to me.
 Signature Preston.
Dad - 20 Dec 2006 22:57 GMT Snip
> Not really imo. As I've stated all along, I see it as a potential issue > only if some detergent ends up in an inaccessible area such as a frame [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > days, but let the experiment run for a few weeks seeing as you've gone > to the trouble of setting it up. Don't agree with much more than a week, remember we're talking un-deluted. Besides there will be 6 kids here for the next week between the ages of 2 and 13, I'd have to put them in my gun safe, no way.
> I can put them up on my webspace if you want to email them to me. Got photobucket pass word back so I get it up sooner or later.
Bob I - 20 Dec 2006 00:22 GMT >>Reality check, guys. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Salts are not different Sodiums but different Clorides (such as > Potassium Cloride) Bull. I suggest you learn what a salt is.
>>I don't know what started this thread, but I suspect it was something like >>saying use Dawn or similar to wash the car initially that was found on the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and thier cars looked as good as new, yet they still haven't shown any > photographs of said car. Then it spiraled out of control from there. WISynOil@gmail.com - 20 Dec 2006 06:00 GMT > >>Reality check, guys. > >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Bull. I suggest you learn what a salt is. If you want a more in depth answer. A salt, in chemistry, is any ionic compound composed of cations (positively charged ions) and anions (negative ions) so that the product is neutral (without a net charge). These component ions can be inorganic (Cl-) as well as organic (CH3COO-) and monoatomic ions(F-) as well as polyatomic ions (SO42-); they are formed when acids and bases react.
There are several varieties of salts: Normal salts are those that do not contain a hydroxide ion (OH-) or a hydrogen ion (H+). Salts that contain a hydroxide ion are basic salts and salts that contain a hydrogen ion are acid salts. Impure salts is a name for salts which have lost their saltiness, and can also refer to natrons. Zwitterions are salts that contain an anionic center and a cationic center in the same molecule; examples include amino acids, many metabolites, peptides and proteins.
When salts are dissolved in water, they are called electrolytes, and are able to conduct electricity, a property that is shared with molten salts. Mixtures of many different ions in solution-like in the cytoplasm of cells, in blood, urine, plant saps and mineral waters- usually do not form defined salts after evaporation of the water. Therefore, their salt content is given for the respective ions.
Preston - 20 Dec 2006 09:23 GMT > So your nail in a jar needs to have the 1 ounce of Dawn in a 5 gallon > bucket of water and mixed thoroughly. Then scoop your Dawn/water mix [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > How many of you actually wash once a week? Maybe once every two > weeks? So that is 11 years of washing to equal the nail for 3 days. Nice bit of calculating there, but completely irrelevant. The issue is when some detergent finds it's way into an enclosed area during washing & doesn't get rinsed out. So it could potentially sit there until it evaporates, or could be compounded everytime you wash the car, or could get rinsed out during the next wash. Lots of possibilities.
> Now, here is the kicker. --- Is your car bare metal? Or is it > painted. Lots of bare metal everywhere - inside the door skins for example.
> I don't know what started this thread, but I suspect it was something > like saying use Dawn or similar to wash the car initially that was > found on the side of a mountain to clean of the crud off of it. I > doubt there was ever any suggestion to wash the car weekly for the > next 5 years with Dawn. No, Dad said all he uses to wash his cars is Dawn. Andy said that was a bad idea as it would take off the wax. Dad said that was an old wives tail etc etc. Then I said I wouldn't use dishwasher detergents as they generally contain salt meaning they may increase corrosion, so why risk it when there are plenty of other options. It all spiralled from there.
> With Preston living in Wales How dare you! I said the car was living in Wales, not me!
> I bet the salt content in the air is > more than in the Dawn soap and water solution he will use on the car > unless he lives up on Mount Snowdon. Well it was quite high up on a mountain, but I think the major constituent of air in Wales is water. And wool.
> I'm SURE there is more salt content in the dirt and grime you get > from daily driving. There certainly is once they start gritting the roads. Hence whilst some of my motorbikes get used during winter, the 'good' one stays firmly tucked up in the garage (as will the 'vette when it's finished).
 Signature Preston.
Tom in Missouri - 20 Dec 2006 17:45 GMT > Nice bit of calculating there, but completely irrelevant. The issue is > when some detergent finds it's way into an enclosed area during washing > & doesn't get rinsed out. So it could potentially sit there until it > evaporates, or could be compounded everytime you wash the car, or could > get rinsed out during the next wash. Lots of possibilities. The basic premise is that it would take a long time. Even soapy solution that gets trapped is a very diluted solution, and it is doubtful that the trapped soapy water will react much differently that simply trapped water. No real numbers, but a wild shot or say it rusts through in ten years. Maybe with water only it rusts through in ten years and two months. With regular car soap in ten years and 1 month. I think the difference in effects is really very little.
>> Now, here is the kicker. --- Is your car bare metal? Or is it >> painted. > > Lots of bare metal everywhere - inside the door skins for example. Actually, no. They are painted by the vendor of those pieces prior to shipping to Corvette for assembly, even if the vendor was the Chevrolet mill. Once installed in the door panel, they get coated by overspray in the painting process. Not as much now with the robots, but more than you think. The inside and outside of a door gets painted, so a lot of overspray goes through the inner panel holes to coat the inner steer structure.
I can't remember where the links are to assembly line pictures, but I'll post them for you later.
> How dare you! I said the car was living in Wales, not me! All I remembered was Wales in the conversation.
> There certainly is once they start gritting the roads. Hence whilst > some of my motorbikes get used during winter, the 'good' one stays > firmly tucked up in the garage (as will the 'vette when it's finished). You know that stuff stays on the roads and shoulders for months. The road isn't clean once the temperatures turn warm. So the damage from Dawn (if any) is a relative thing.
Tom in Missouri - 21 Dec 2006 09:06 GMT These aren't the links I was after, but they do show the cars in the plant.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1294608
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1149165
http://www.corvette.net/misc.htm
I also just checked a '68 I have apart. The inner door panel is steel (not the interior panel) and is assembled to the door prior to paint. When the car is painted, there is paint on the outside of the door, the inside of the door, and overspray through most holes and apparently down the window slot from the patterns I could see inside the door.
If you trap soapy water, then the rinse water should also be trapped there. So you have the issue of water rusting as much as you do with soapy water. If you actually rinse with a lot of water, there shouldn't be any soapy water, just clear.
> Actually, no. They are painted by the vendor of those pieces prior to > shipping to Corvette for assembly, even if the vendor was the Chevrolet [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I can't remember where the links are to assembly line pictures, but I'll > post them for you later. Preston - 22 Dec 2006 09:24 GMT > I also just checked a '68 I have apart. The inner door panel is steel > (not the interior panel) and is assembled to the door prior to paint. > When the car is painted, there is paint on the outside of the door, > the inside of the door, and overspray through most holes and > apparently down the window slot from the patterns I could see inside > the door. But as you know, paint doesn't stop a car rusting, just delays it.
> If you trap soapy water, then the rinse water should also be trapped > there. So you have the issue of water rusting as much as you do with > soapy water. Except soapy water (assuming it contains salt, which most/all dishwashing detergents do) will make it rust faster due to the higher salinity.
> If you actually rinse with a lot of water, there > shouldn't be any soapy water, just clear. Agree 100%. Or you could just wash with something else & not worry so much about the rinsing. It's been a problem here most of the year as we've had a hosepipe ban, so rinsing thoroughly isn't easy!
 Signature Preston.
Dad - 22 Dec 2006 15:21 GMT Snip
>> Except soapy water (assuming it contains salt, which most/all > dishwashing detergents do) will make it rust faster due to the higher [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > much about the rinsing. It's been a problem here most of the year as > we've had a hosepipe ban, so rinsing thoroughly isn't easy! Actually not as true as I thought it would be, salt that is, the bare metal nail test was pulled this morning and it is quite interesting. Replaced them and am going to put them in the barn until next year.
Got my son's family with 4 girls here for Christmas and no time to waste on it right now but will post pictures and description soon.
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Lone Wolf - 22 Dec 2006 15:47 GMT Hey Guys..give it up ..never saw such a bunch crap over nothing.....all you poor saps have to do...??? hate to even reply to this topic but I never ever saw so much time wasted by so many...don't any of you have any brains at all. Is this your life..bunch of losers if I ever came across any.
PJ - 22 Dec 2006 17:37 GMT > Hey Guys..give it up ..never saw such a bunch crap over nothing.....all > you poor saps have to do...??? hate to even reply to this topic but I > never ever saw so much time wasted by so many...don't any of you have > any brains at all. Is this your life..bunch of losers if I ever came > across any. Yeah verily! Looked like a bunch of blind rats running through a maze. {{#-[
As the beer makers say, "it's the water."
Find stuff that works well with your tap water. Juggle the temperature a bit. With some nasty water you might want to find a wetting agent to use in the rinse.
Happy holiday to all.
 Signature PJ
No Vette Yet - 24 Dec 2006 04:53 GMT >> Hey Guys..give it up ..never saw such a bunch crap over nothing.....all >> you poor saps have to do...??? hate to even reply to this topic but I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Happy holiday to all. Thanks and the same to all from here too. As to the wetting agent, exactly what I do... use vinegar for breaking down the hard water and Jetdry for making the water more slippery. Washed 2 cars today before the rain and they still look fine. Even the windows look almost like new. I find I don't have to wax as often too.
OT: I joked with my wife about when we retire and replacing a car with a corvette to travel around the country. It didn't seem to bother her a lot so it may actually come to pass (she's not into sports cars per se)
One question comes to mind, with the 06/07 vettes, if you have had back problems in the past, does getting in or out of the car, aggravate your back? Most of the time, my back is fine unless I do something stupid and it lets me know real fast when I'm stupid.
RicSeyler - 27 Dec 2006 21:05 GMT > Hey Guys..give it up ..never saw such a bunch crap over > nothing.....all you poor saps have to do...??? Maybe you should be out saving the planet from hot rodders instead.......... then you wouldn't have time to be bothered by all us losers.
> hate to even reply to this topic but I never ever saw so much time > wasted by so many...don't any of you have any brains at all. Is this > your life..bunch of losers if I ever came across any.
 Signature Ric Seyler Online Racing: RicSeyler GPL Handicap 6.35 ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler remove –SPAM- from email address -------------------------------------- "Homer no function beer well without." - H.J. Simpson
Preston - 22 Dec 2006 09:27 GMT > > There certainly is once they start gritting the roads. Hence whilst > > some of my motorbikes get used during winter, the 'good' one stays > > firmly tucked up in the garage (as will the 'vette when it's > > finished). > > You know that stuff stays on the roads and shoulders for months. No, it stays until it rains - which tends to happen a lot here during winter/spring.
 Signature Preston.
No Vette Yet - 21 Dec 2006 05:12 GMT >Reality check, guys. Tom, I've got to say, I never heard of soap rusting out a car. Maybe trapped water possible. I'm old enough and lived around and never heard of soap making rust. My only gripe against Dawn is the possible soap film on car and rewaxing. Maybe the soap film isn't an issue if you really rinse well, dunno. I'm not using Dawn because where I live, I found a way to get a good car wash so I don't plan to change it now.
No Vette Yet - 19 Dec 2006 12:19 GMT >Snip >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >What is NaCl? Is there any in the Dawn soap, I don't think so. Actually Dad, there is but the MSDS sheet says that Dawn does not cause corrosion. And I think if it did, there would be a warning label about not washing certain type of metal pots.
Lone Wolf - 17 Dec 2006 16:31 GMT Works great as a marine bilge cleaner..just pour some in the bilge and let it slosh around for a few trips and then pump out all that dirty water/stuff. Clean like new...!!!!!!!!!!
No Vette Yet - 18 Dec 2006 06:37 GMT >Since I may have been guilty of starting this silly subject by stating that I >use Dawn to wash my car here is some of what is said about Dawn soap on >http://www.dawn-dish.com/ FWIW, the MSDS on this soap:
http://www.fsafood.com/msds/vault/000/000623.pdf
No Vette Yet - 18 Dec 2006 06:51 GMT >Since I may have been guilty of starting this silly subject by stating that I >use Dawn to wash my car here is some of what is said about Dawn soap on >http://www.dawn-dish.com/ FWIW, here is what I found listed for the Dawn ingredients:
Water , Sodium Lauryl Sulfate , Sodium Pareth-23 Sulfate , C12-14-16 Dimethyl Oxide , SD Alcohol 40-B , Undeceth-9 , Sodium Cumenesulfonate , PPG26 , Sodium Chloride , Cyclohexanediamine , Polyacetate , Fragrance , FD&C Yellow #5 , D&C Red No. 33
dave - 18 Dec 2006 21:18 GMT 'Dawn as well as all other dishwashing detergents, removes the wax on a car ' !! -- Sal Zaino of Zaino Polish Inc.
Dont use Dawn. Use proper car wash and wax.
No Vette Yet - 18 Dec 2006 23:10 GMT >'Dawn as well as all other dishwashing detergents, removes the wax on a >car ' !! -- Sal Zaino of Zaino Polish Inc. > >Dont use Dawn. Use proper car wash and wax. Ok, if Dawn is a wax stripper.... suppose in theory you wash your car with Dawn each time and then wax it. If the soap isn't corrosive per the MSDS, what do you think of this method (assume the water isn't hard) ?
Regardless of your answer, I don't plan to do this so feel free to shoot me down or up.
Andy - 18 Dec 2006 23:56 GMT >>'Dawn as well as all other dishwashing detergents, removes the wax on a >>car ' !! -- Sal Zaino of Zaino Polish Inc. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Ok, if Dawn is a wax stripper.... suppose in theory you wash your car >with Dawn each time and then wax it. The only downside to that is more work. Other than that I see no problem.
dave - 19 Dec 2006 00:49 GMT 'Ok, if Dawn is a wax stripper.... suppose in theory you wash your car with Dawn each time and then wax it. If the soap isn't corrosive per the MSDS, what do you think of this method (assume the water isn't hard) ?'
REPLY: Why wash your car with Dawn then wax it right afterward, if the next time youre going to wash it with Dawn youll be taking that wax off ??? The idea behind waxing/polishing a car, is to build up a layer of protection from the elements and to have it look shiny isnt it ? The only reason to use Dawn is to remove the wax/polish so you can paint your car if it needs it.
No Vette Yet - 19 Dec 2006 04:22 GMT >'Ok, if Dawn is a wax stripper.... suppose in theory you wash your car >with Dawn each time and then wax it. If the soap isn't corrosive per the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >only reason to use Dawn is to remove the wax/polish so you can paint >your car if it needs it. I'm not sure if I agree with that's the only reason. Sometimes you want to just take old wax off and start new. Of course, that doesn't justify washing with dawn and rewaxing each time unless you don't wash your car often.
I guess I agree with Dad, whatever makes you happy. I found my way, Dad found his and so forth.
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