Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Malibu / April 2004
intake manifold leak - 2001
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Chetldr - 29 Mar 2004 06:39 GMT Hi all -
Been reading the board off and on for a while. I just turned 46000 miles and have recently noticed the wonderful smell of burning coolant. Based on what I have read here, and the fact that I keep having to add coolant - it sounds like an intake manifold leak. Can someone give me an idea where to look on the engine block for a leak? Really hoping I'm wrong....
A
Duane - 29 Mar 2004 16:44 GMT You are probably right that it's an intake manifold leak.
I just had mine replaced on my 2001'boo as well. Mine had 36,700 miles, and although I have never added coolant, my idiot light would just flicker on for ~2 sec when it was first started and the reservoir was low. The write up guy at the Chevy dealer mentioned that it often occurs on the drivers side near the "front" of the block, but mine showed no evidence of leakage. Since mine occurred just outside of warranty and I talked to the Service Manager, they did the ($800) repair under warranty.
For all it's worth, I'm an engineer and I too have learned quite a lot about it from others in this group (thank you) and have personally concluded; 1) these intake manifold gasket leaks are pretty common and GM now has a better gasket available. 2) the leak doesn't always happen the same way. Some of them leak directly into the intake and are burned during combustion, probably confusing the O2 sensor and resulting in poor mileage. Other times coolant leaks outside and is visible. I also have heard of catastrophic engines failures; lifters and bearings, that makes me wonder if coolant is also leaking into the crankcase in some cases! Coolant in the oil would be bad news, because it would vaporize as it is doing damage. 3) low coolant (dex-cool) sometimes results in sludge, apparently from rust build up and the air in the closed system. Keep your coolant topped off or expect bigger problems!!!
I personally would recommend you approach your favorite GM dealer about repairing the gasket under warranty. As a little incentive for them I would insist that if they must charge you, you definitely want the old gasket removed from your vehicle. Put it in writing where you sign the service order!
Good luck, Duane
> Hi all - > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > A noone@nowhere.invalid - 29 Mar 2004 18:36 GMT Just to add my experience with my 98,
Sometimes the gasket first starts leaking to the outside and the coolant is burned up on the hot engine surface. That's what my dealer explained when I said I had to add coolant every couple of months, but I never had a coolant stain on the floor of my garage.
Also, when I had the repair done, there were 7 gaskets and 2 seals replaced (V6 engine).
Gasket Part numbers were: 12480829 12480824 101154775 (2) 10108445 24506439 10241048
Seal part numbers were: 24504709 10477565 ------------------------------
>You are probably right that it's an intake manifold leak. > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> >> A nwshinnob - 30 Mar 2004 03:19 GMT A cheaper thing to look at is the overflow tank, mine (a 2000) had a hairline crack and showed the same symptoms...so have it pressure tested. your mileage may vary... Doug
> Hi all - > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > A Chetldr - 04 Apr 2004 19:27 GMT Thanks for your responses guys. I took the car to the dealer and it was the intake manifold gasket. Cost me $1050 to fix. I called Chevy and they didn't really have much to offer - they said they said there was no goodwill program in place, and would note my call in the system. I filed a complaint with the NHTSA, and am going to follow up with another letter to GM, which includes a copy of the service bulletin which discusses the gasket design changes.
This really kinda makes me sad - I have always driven a GM product since I started driving (going on 15 years), and really thought that GM had finally "gotten it" and improved on the quality control problems. I grew up in a GM town and for some strange reason I wanted to support local industry. I always overlooked the fit and finish problems - as long as the motor was solid, I had some level of confidence in the product. But now, who knows? Between brakes and this gasket I have spent almost $1500 on a car that I have owned for a year (and is 10,000 miles out of warranty).
I will let you know what kind of response I get from the company - probably nothing of great substance. But I am going to let them know that they lost a potential customer.
sorry for the rant, AF.
> A cheaper thing to look at is the overflow tank, mine (a 2000) had a > hairline crack and showed the same symptoms...so have it pressure tested. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > A James C. Reeves - 05 Apr 2004 00:17 GMT | Thanks for your responses guys. I took the car to the dealer and it | was the intake manifold gasket. Cost me $1050 to fix. I called Chevy | and they didn't really have much to offer - they said they said there | was no goodwill program in place, and would note my call in the | system. Ouch!!! $1,050.00!!!!
| I filed a complaint with the NHTSA, and am going to follow up | with another letter to GM, which includes a copy of the service | bulletin which discusses the gasket design changes. Good luck! Something seemingly this pervasive I would think the NHTSA would want to take a look at. Although if it isn't a "safety" issue, perhaps they won't do much. Let us know what happens though.
| This really kinda makes me sad - I have always driven a GM product | since I started driving (going on 15 years), and really thought that | GM had finally "gotten it" and improved on the quality control | problems. "Sad" is a VERY good word for it. I think I've used it a time or two here too. My extended family for the most part has been a GM family for nearly 50 (maybe more) years. Heck, my uncle still owns a 1974 Pontiac GrandAm that used to belong to by Grandfather that bought several 50's and 60's Cadillacs in his day.
I think GM HAS actually improved their product overall (some exception like the recent intake manifold leak problems and the little things you noted). But, they seem to have gotten much worse of late in the areas of standing behind their product and doing the right thing for the customer.
| I grew up in a GM town and for some strange reason I wanted | to support local industry. And I think we all should try and do that when we can...as long as it doesn't make us go broke doing it.
| I always overlooked the fit and finish | problems - as long as the motor was solid, I had some level of | confidence in the product. But now, who knows? Between brakes and | this gasket I have spent almost $1500 on a car that I have owned for a | year (and is 10,000 miles out of warranty). I can't believe GM wouldn't go at least 50% with you on this!! This is a pervasive and well known issue and obvious either a engine design flaw or gasket design/specification problem. GM shouldn't expect that their customer pay so dearly for their design mistake.
A woman at work has a 2000 Acura MDX where, about 2-3 months ago the tranny went out at 60,000 miles (out of warranty). Dealer quoted $7,200 for replacement. She squawked and pointed to Usenet over the many MDX/Pilot tranny problems and Acura/Honda agreed to covered all but $1,000 of the new tranny. GM says they're competitive...but they aren't if their competition stands behind their vehicles (and customers) like in this example (and I've heard many others just like it), when they obviously don't do the same.
| I will let you know what kind of response I get from the company - | probably nothing of great substance. But I am going to let them know | that they lost a potential customer. They'll likely ignore you after awhile. I truly don't think they care. I've already been there. Good luck...maybe they've started to turn around. But, keep pressing!! I basically quit after three out of four ignored emails, five out of six unreturned phone calls to my "case" person and two letters to Bob Lutz himself without a single response to either one...not even a form letter saying thanks for your letter. It's really quite unbelieveable, if you ask me! They leave no place for a customer to turn to in these cases for relief but Usenet!!!
| sorry for the rant, | AF. Some of us here have been there and done that, so we certainly understand. Although be prepared that the Lemmings here will still likely flame you for it...so get ready! :-) Actually, my post will likely deflect it! ;-)
GM, if you're listening, help this good customer out, will ya!!!! Is IS the right thing to do, don't ya think?
Duane - 05 Apr 2004 17:09 GMT Sorry to hear the co$tly news! ...and I'm also sorry that GM isn't doing more for their customers.
For all its worth, I uncovered a document from the Pontiac division of GM discussing the same intake manifold gasket leak that Pontiac agreed to replace them out of warranty for no charge until 100,000 miles. This was only for Pontiac. I uncovered it searching Dex-cool problems w/ google.com .
I also learned about a friend from church who has a 1999 Malibu where the intake manifold gasket leak caused Dex-cool to enter the crankcase. It first caused the lifters to fail, then finally the camshaft broke. Her costs were ~$6,000 for the 2 repairs that ultimately required an entire engine rebuild. She now owes more for the car than it's worth and can't afford to buy a different car. You can count your blessings that you caught yours before it caused major damage.
Hopefully more GM owners understand how serious a problem it is to have Dex-cool coolant "disappear" from their fill tank! Warn any friends and relatives that own GM cars.
- Duane
> | Thanks for your responses guys. I took the car to the dealer and it > | was the intake manifold gasket. Cost me $1050 to fix. I called Chevy [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > GM, if you're listening, help this good customer out, will ya!!!! Is IS the > right thing to do, don't ya think? Chetldr - 19 Apr 2004 05:01 GMT > For all its worth, I uncovered a document from the Pontiac division of GM > discussing the same intake manifold gasket leak that Pontiac agreed to > replace them out of warranty for no charge until 100,000 miles. This was > only for Pontiac. I uncovered it searching Dex-cool problems w/ google.com Thanks for the tip - I located the document as well and was going to include it in my letter to GM, but I could not get a suitable hardcopy.
As an update - GM responded to my letter, and said there is nothing they can do. I am going to keep pushing. Since my repair - I was talking to a good friend about this. His Malibu has the same problem (but didn't realize it until we talked) and is adding about a gallon of coolant a month! He doesn't care because he is turning the car in at the end of month when the lease ends. Hopefully the motor will last that long.
Nice job GM - another customer you lost.
I'll keep you guys updated.
AF
shawnh2004 - 21 Apr 2004 02:58 GMT I had a mechanic replace the intake manifold in 2001 and it is leaking again and a mechanic suggest replacing it again sometime this year. i have a 2000 malibu. i have read several post and want to know who to contact because this is outrageous. the lemon law has to come into play here. i also had to replace the fuel pump in 2002. i own the car now but what is the point if it keeps breaking down. has anyone contacted a lawyer about this. if not i will be the first. any comments or emails would be helpful.
shawnh2004 - 21 Apr 2004 03:04 GMT i tried to post once but it erased my post i think so hear it goes again. i have a 2000 malibu 6 cylinder and replaced the intake manifold around thanksgiving of 2001 almost a year to the day that i bought it. my mechanic says he will have to replace it again sometime this year because it is leaking again. it there anything i can do?? who should i contact. has anyone appoached a lawyer with this matter. if not i will because the lemon law has to come into play with something like this. i also replaced the fuel filter in 2002.
Duane - 21 Apr 2004 15:07 GMT The more people I talk to about this intake manifold leak, the more occurrences I uncover. If you're able to hire a lawyer, I'm sure you could find enough victims to assemble a class action suit. I agree, the problem is outrageous and more wide spread than I ever thought! GM will probably deny it to the bitter end and spare no expenses with their lawyers, because they have been paid $700 to $6000 for everybody who paid them to have this repaired. It appears that they have earned Millions of $'s based upon the % of GM owners I've talked to.
Although I had mine repaired under warranty, I'll continue to share what I've learned with everybody who will listen. Maybe GM will get the message when they continue to lose customers.
I just learned my neighbor had this same problem on his leased 2000'boo. He returned it with the problem unfixed, and the dealer tried to charge him to have it fixed. He refused and they dinked his credit record with the cost.
Warn every GM owner you know. From what I've learned, this problem affects the 3.1L, the 3.4L and the 3.8L V6 engines. GM purchasing probably saved a few pennies from that supplier.
- Duane
> i tried to post once but it erased my post i think so hear it goes again. > i have a 2000 malibu 6 cylinder and replaced the intake manifold around [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > lemon law has to come into play with something like this. i also replaced > the fuel filter in 2002. kd7ctv - 21 Apr 2004 19:22 GMT I know this is a little old, but it might help..... Good luck
Customer Satisfaction Program -- Engine Coolant Leak #03034 - (07/07/2003)
03034 - Engine Coolant Leak
All 2000-2002 and Certain 2003 Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo; Pontiac Grand Prix, Bonneville; and Buick Regal, LeSabre, Park Avenue Equipped with 3.8L V6 Engine (RPO L36 - VIN Code K)
THIS RECALL IS IN EFFECT UNTIL JULY 31, 2005.
Condition General Motors has decided that all 2000-2002 and certain 2003 Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo; Pontiac Grand Prix, Bonneville; and Buick Regal, LeSabre, Park Avenue model vehicles equipped with 3.8L (RPO L36 - VIN Code K) engines, may have a condition in which engine coolant may leak at the upper intake manifold throttle body gasket, or at the upper intake manifold to lower intake manifold gasket. This condition may result in a low engine coolant level and higher engine operating temperatures.
Correction Dealers are to replace the three throttle body fastener nuts and add cooling system sealant to the radiator tank.
Vehicles Involved Involved are all 2000-2002 Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo; Pontiac Grand Prix, Bonneville; and Buick Regal, LeSabre, Park Avenue model vehicles equipped with 3.8L (RPO L36 - VIN Code K) engines and built within these VIN breakpoints:
Note: VIN numbers were not provided
Important Dealers should confirm vehicle eligibility through GMVIS (GM Vehicle Inquiry System) or GM Access Screen (Canada only) or DCS Screen 445 (IPC only) prior to beginning program repairs. [Not all vehicles within the above breakpoints may be involved.]
Computer listings containing the complete Vehicle Identification Number, customer name and address data have been prepared, and are being furnished to involved dealers with the program bulletin. The customer name and address data furnished will enable dealers to follow up with customers involved in this program. Any dealer not receiving a computer listing with the program bulletin has no involved vehicles currently assigned. These dealer listings may contain customer names and addresses obtained from Motor Vehicle Registration Records. The use of such motor vehicle registration data for any other purpose is a violation of law in several states/provinces/countries. Accordingly, you are urged to limit the use of this listing to the follow-up necessary to complete this program.
Parts Information Parts required to complete this program are to be obtained from General Motors Service Parts Operations (GMSPO). Please refer to your "involved vehicles listing" before ordering requirements. Normal orders should be placed on a DRO = Daily Replenishment Order. In an emergency situation, parts should be ordered on a CSO = Customer Special Order.
Service Procedure Important All "W" cars and "H" cars require a total of 16 grams of coolant sealant pellets per vehicle engine cooling system. The Buick Park Avenue ("C" car) requires 20 grams of coolant sealant pellets per vehicle engine cooling system.
Remove the engine intake air snorkel assembly from the throttle body (t/b) and air box. Remove the bolt from the t/b support bracket at the throttle body. Loosen the bolt from the t/b support bracket at the cylinder head and move the t/b support bracket away from the throttle body. Remove one of the 3 t/b nuts. Apply thread locker (p/n 12345382 US / 10953489 Canada) to the stud. Install a new t/b spring nut (p/n 11517293) and tighten finger tight. Repeat Steps 5 through 7 for remaining t/b nuts. Tighten the 3 t/b spring nuts. Tighten Tighten the spring nuts to 10 N?m (89 lb in). Reinstall the t/b support bracket into position. Reinstall and tighten the t/b support bracket. Tighten Tighten the bracket to 10 N?m (89 lb in). Tighten the t/b support bracket bolt at the cylinder head. Tighten Tighten the bolt to 10 N?m (89 lb in).
Caution To avoid being burned, do not remove the radiator cap or surge tank cap while the engine is hot. The cooling system will release scalding fluid and steam under pressure if radiator cap or surge tank cap is removed while the engine and radiator are still hot.
Remove the vehicle radiator cap. Remove and appropriate quantity of coolant pellets from the package and pulverize the pellets in a plastic bag. The Park Avenue cooling system requires 20 grams of pellets and all the other vehicle cooling systems require 16 grams of pellets. Install the crushed pellets through the radiator neck after adjusting the coolant level to accommodate the pellets. Add coolant as required and reinstall the radiator cap. Install the GM Identification Label.
Identification Label Place a Recall Identification Label on each vehicle corrected in accordance with the instructions outlined in this Product Recall Bulletin. Each label provides a space to include the recall number and the five (5) digit dealer code of the dealer performing the recall service. This information may be inserted with a typewriter or a ball point pen. Put the Recall Identification Label on a clean and dry surface of the radiator core support in an area that will be visible to people servicing the vehicle. For US and IPC -- When installing the Recall Identification Label, be sure to pull the tab to allow the adhesion of the clear protective covering. Additional Recall Identification Labels for US dealers can be obtained from Dealer Support Materials by either ordering on the web from DWD Store, gm-dealerworld.com, or calling 1-866-700-0001 (Monday-Friday, 8:00 am to 5:00 pm EST). Ask for Item Number S-1015 when ordering. Additional Recall Identification Labels for IPC dealers can be obtained from your Regional Marketing Office. For Canada - Additional Recall Identification Labels for Canadian dealers can be obtained from DGN by calling 1-800-668-5539 (Monday-Friday, 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST). Ask for Item Number GMP 91 when ordering.
Customer Reimbursement - For US All customer requests for reimbursement of previously paid coolant leaks that were repaired by replacing the upper intake manifold/gasket, throttle body nuts, or throttle body gasket will be handled by the Customer Assistance Center, not by dealers. A General Motors Product Program Customer Reimbursement Procedure Form is included with the customer letter.
Important Refer to GM Service Policies and Procedures Manual, section 6.1.12 for specific procedures regarding customer reimbursement and the form.
Customer Reimbursement - For Canada All customer requests for reimbursement of previously paid coolant leaks that were repaired by replacing the upper intake manifold/gasket, throttle body nuts or throttle body gasket are to be submitted by July 31, 2004.All reasonable customer paid receipts should be considered for reimbursement. The amount to be reimbursed will be limited to the amount the repair would have cost if completed by an authorized General Motors dealer. When a customer requests reimbursement, they must provide the following: Proof of ownership at the time of repair. Original paid receipt confirming the amount of unreimbursed repair expense(s) that were not reimbursed, a description of the repair, and the person or entity performing the repair. Claims for customer reimbursement on previously paid repairs are to be submitted as required by WINS.
Important Refer to the GM service policies and procedures manual, section 1.6.2, for specific procedures regarding customer reimbursement verification.
Courtesy Transportation The General Motors Courtesy Transportation program is intended to minimize customer inconvenience when a vehicle requires a repair that is covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The availability of courtesy transportation to customers whose vehicles are within the warranty coverage period and involved in a product recall is very important in maintaining customer satisfaction. Dealers are to ensure that these customers understand that shuttle service or some other form of courtesy transportation is available and will be provided at no charge. Dealers should refer to the General Motors Service Policies and Procedures Manual for Courtesy Transportation guidelines.
Claim Information Submit a Product Program Claim with the information indicated below.
Note: No other information was included.
END OF BULLETIN
Steven did me a HUGE favor by sending the above info in an e-mail. I just cut and pasted it and didn't have to re-type everything.
Steven also sent me a list of the affected VINs: 2000 Chevy MC Y9100297-Y9385464 2000 Chevy Impala Y9100297-Y9385464 2000 Pontiac GP YF100033-YF353313 2000 Buick Regal Y1100004-Y1304443
Something looks a little strange with these numbers since the VINs are "Y" and the bulletin talks about "K." My car falls in the breakpoints, but it has a "K" not a "Y." Anyone else received a letter or have more info?
James C. Reeves - 21 Apr 2004 23:08 GMT From what I've heard from people...this recall only gets more GM vehicles to last beyond the warranty period before eventually leaking anyway, in which case the repair then isn't covered. Any others heard this?
| I know this is a little old, but it might help..... | Good luck [quoted text clipped - 176 lines] | and the bulletin talks about "K." My car falls in the breakpoints, but it | has a "K" not a "Y." Anyone else received a letter or have more info? Brad Clarke - 22 Apr 2004 00:52 GMT >>The more people I talk to about this intake manifold leak, the more >>occurrences I uncover. If you're able to hire a lawyer, I'm sure you could >>find enough victims to assemble a class action suit. At least two class action lawsuits have been filed.
kd7ctv - 22 Apr 2004 01:07 GMT I believe the class action suits are in regards to the Dexcool, thats used.
> >>The more people I talk to about this intake manifold leak, the more > >>occurrences I uncover. If you're able to hire a lawyer, I'm sure you could > >>find enough victims to assemble a class action suit. > At least two class action lawsuits have been filed.
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