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Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Trucks / November 2004

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4.3 Liter V6

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Kiel Uyttenhove - 09 Nov 2004 09:59 GMT
My dad has a 1992 GMC Vandura 1/2 ton work van with a throttle body fuel
injected 4.3 liter V6. Recently he just replaced the engine. Before he
replaced the engine, when the engine was cold or when it was sitting for
awhile, when you start it, the rpms would pulsate, from like 500 -1000 rpms,
up and down for like 5 mins unless you stomped on it or drove it. Since
replacing the engine, it still does this. We took the throttle body apart,
cleaned it, put a new TPS on it, Idle Air Control Valve on it, and it still
has the same problem. The van also has a new oxygen sensor on it, but it has
no catalytic converter. I have some thoughts of what the problem might be,
but would like any input on what you guys think it might be. Thanks
Jay - 10 Nov 2004 01:03 GMT
Did you change the IAC {idle air controller}? It may be sluggish to react
once commanded by the ecm. Engine light on?

Signature

Jason E.
ASE Master Technician with L1 Advanced engine performance
GM Master Certified Technician

> My dad has a 1992 GMC Vandura 1/2 ton work van with a throttle body fuel
> injected 4.3 liter V6. Recently he just replaced the engine. Before he
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> problem might be, but would like any input on what you guys think it might
> be. Thanks
Kiel Uyttenhove - 10 Nov 2004 11:57 GMT
Yep, every imagineable was replaced except the coolant temp sensor and the
oil pressure sensor. Van still does it, even with this "brand new engine".
You think it not having a cat would cause it to do this? Like I said before,
its just when its cold, or when its been sitting anywhere 30 mins all the
way up to past an hour.

> Did you change the IAC {idle air controller}? It may be sluggish to react
> once commanded by the ecm. Engine light on?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> problem might be, but would like any input on what you guys think it
>> might be. Thanks
One-Shot Scot - 10 Nov 2004 15:04 GMT
> > Did you change the IAC {idle air controller}? It may be sluggish to
> > react once commanded by the ecm. Engine light on?

<<Yep, every imagineable was replaced except the coolant temp sensor and
the oil pressure sensor. Van still does it, even with this "brand new
engine". You think it not having a cat would cause it to do this? Like I
said before, its just when its cold, or when its been sitting anywhere
30 mins all the way up to past an hour.>>

Did your Vandura have an oxygen sensor located at the outlet of the
removed catalytic converter? This appears to be a common situation.

Before reading the following possibly-useless information, keep in mind
that I have already been told the following by an
extremely-knowledgeable contributor to this newsgroup:

"Hardly possible... I've removed dozens of cats from OBD-1 vehicles
without issue."

*** *** ***

"The oxygen sensor reports live information about the engine's air/fuel
mixture to the powertrain control module. This information is used
primarily to help calculate fuel delivery to the engine, which changes
continuously while it is running. If the engine is running lean, the
powertrain control module will sense this from the oxygen sensor's
signal and increase the air/fuel mixture to the engine. Conversely, just
the opposite occurs when the engine begins to run rich. On
OBDII-equipped vehicles, the sensors are also used to help determine the
efficiency of the catalytic converter. The powertrain control module
does this by comparing the signal of the sensor located at the inlet of
the catalytic converter with the signal of the sensor located at the
outlet of the converter."

http://www.carcarecouncil.org/Emission_Control/O2_sensors.shtml

This test can be performed on the sensor installed at the outlet of the
Catalytic converter to verify its condition as well. These are looking
at Oxygen levels on the outlet side of the Cat, and should remain
flatlined if the Cat is working efficiently.

http://www.cybernw.com/~fourty/test1.html
Kiel Uyttenhove - 10 Nov 2004 22:41 GMT
The O2 sensor was replaced before the engine was replaced. So it's in place
and also only a couple months old. I don't drive the van, but just listening
to it start and run is annoying. My dad doesn't seem to find it entertaining
either.

> > Did you change the IAC {idle air controller}? It may be sluggish to
> > react once commanded by the ecm. Engine light on?

<<Yep, every imagineable was replaced except the coolant temp sensor and
the oil pressure sensor. Van still does it, even with this "brand new
engine". You think it not having a cat would cause it to do this? Like I
said before, its just when its cold, or when its been sitting anywhere
30 mins all the way up to past an hour.>>

Did your Vandura have an oxygen sensor located at the outlet of the
removed catalytic converter? This appears to be a common situation.

Before reading the following possibly-useless information, keep in mind
that I have already been told the following by an
extremely-knowledgeable contributor to this newsgroup:

"Hardly possible... I've removed dozens of cats from OBD-1 vehicles
without issue."

*** *** ***

"The oxygen sensor reports live information about the engine's air/fuel
mixture to the powertrain control module. This information is used
primarily to help calculate fuel delivery to the engine, which changes
continuously while it is running. If the engine is running lean, the
powertrain control module will sense this from the oxygen sensor's
signal and increase the air/fuel mixture to the engine. Conversely, just
the opposite occurs when the engine begins to run rich. On
OBDII-equipped vehicles, the sensors are also used to help determine the
efficiency of the catalytic converter. The powertrain control module
does this by comparing the signal of the sensor located at the inlet of
the catalytic converter with the signal of the sensor located at the
outlet of the converter."

http://www.carcarecouncil.org/Emission_Control/O2_sensors.shtml

This test can be performed on the sensor installed at the outlet of the
Catalytic converter to verify its condition as well. These are looking
at Oxygen levels on the outlet side of the Cat, and should remain
flatlined if the Cat is working efficiently.

http://www.cybernw.com/~fourty/test1.html
Tony Kimmell - 11 Nov 2004 10:23 GMT
Again... NO.  OBDII didn't start untill mid-1995.

> "Kiel Uyttenhove" <kuyttenhove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:2nnkd.6667$ J2.19@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> http://www.cybernw.com/~fourty/test1.html
Kiel Uyttenhove - 13 Nov 2004 15:58 GMT
What do you mean by "Again....NO." ? I never said anything. I simply stated
what the  van was doing.

> Again... NO.  OBDII didn't start untill mid-1995.
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>>
>> http://www.cybernw.com/~fourty/test1.html 
Tony Kimmell - 14 Nov 2004 15:52 GMT
> What do you mean by "Again....NO." ? I never said anything. I simply stated
> what the  van was doing.

I was replying to One Shot Scott... as far as his suggestion that the
van might have 2 Oxygen sensors.  That didn't start untill OBD-II came
along in mid-year 1995.

As far as the problems with the idle, the idle air control was my
first thought, but someone already suggested that.  Only other thing I
can think of would be maybe the fuel pump is getting weak?  I had a
'91 S-10 that used to want to die right after you first cranked it up,
unless you gave it some gas it would die out.  Once it ran for 20-30
seconds, it would kind of try to die out, but would catch itself right
before it died and rev back up.  It would then repeat the process
untill it was warmed up.  Replacing the fuel pump and filter solved
that one for me.

-Tony
KB - 14 Nov 2004 18:32 GMT
> My dad has a 1992 GMC Vandura 1/2 ton work van with a throttle body fuel
> injected 4.3 liter V6. Recently he just replaced the engine. Before he
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> problem might be, but would like any input on what you guys think it might
> be. Thanks

Kiel,

Make sure that you are getting correct voltage to the injectors.  I had a
'95 pickup that had one of the injector wires shorting against the motor and
causing an erratic idle.

Kyle
Kiel Uyttenhove - 18 Nov 2004 03:37 GMT
Will do, happen to know what the correct voltage is?

>> My dad has a 1992 GMC Vandura 1/2 ton work van with a throttle body fuel
>> injected 4.3 liter V6. Recently he just replaced the engine. Before he
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Kyle
KB - 18 Nov 2004 18:19 GMT
> Will do, happen to know what the correct voltage is?

Can't remember.  Sorry, dude.
John Alt - 20 Nov 2004 15:22 GMT
> Will do, happen to know what the correct voltage is?

They are grounded by the ECM, so it's battery voltage

> >> My dad has a 1992 GMC Vandura 1/2 ton work van with a throttle body fuel
> >> injected 4.3 liter V6. Recently he just replaced the engine. Before he
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >> problem might be, but would like any input on what you guys think it
> >> might be. Thanks

My fathers would surge at idle too. Turned out to be the EGR. The
computer can't compensate for some things fast enough. EGR is one of
them. Remember when the engine is cold, it's running in open loop, so O2
sensor and other emission stuff isn't having an effect. Leaking EGR,
however, does. I'd also look for a vacuum leak somewhere. Squirt carb
cleaner around the intake manifold gasket and listen for a difference.
Kiel Uyttenhove - 20 Nov 2004 18:33 GMT
So that would be any where from 12 - 14 volts? Or maybe I am just thinking
of alternator output. Correct me if I'm wrong

>> Will do, happen to know what the correct voltage is?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> however, does. I'd also look for a vacuum leak somewhere. Squirt carb
> cleaner around the intake manifold gasket and listen for a difference.
John Alt - 21 Nov 2004 04:13 GMT
> So that would be any where from 12 - 14 volts? Or maybe I am just thinking
> of alternator output. Correct me if I'm wrong

Without the motor running, you should be seeing battery voltage across
both terminals of the injector, as the computer end will be open
circuit. When the motor is running, the ground side of the terminal will
have a square like wave on it, with the off time changing width with
demand from the computer. You can't see it without a scope, so this test
is pretty much useless unless you know what you are looking for. IOW,
start looking for the problem somewhere else. The computer is slow at
making corrections to the mixture setting.

What is happening is after the engine starts, the computer looks at TPS,
MAP sensor, RPM, Temp, and adjusts the IAC accordingly. But the
combination of these things isn't in the range the computer is expecting
to see. The engine starts out idling high, because of the initial IAC
setting programmed in, and then starts backing down. The engine will
start to stumble, which the computer sees through the MAP sensor and
RPM, and tries to adjust the IAC back up. Then the engine revs past
where it was trying to go, and the cycle repeats. Disconnect the IAC
when you start it to prove it to yourself. The mixture is way off, and
the computer can't compensate for it.

So, something is out of spec. Look for a vacuum leak first. EGR is a
vacuum leak source, as far as this example is concerned. Also look at
the intake gasket, TBI base gasket, brake booster hose, vacuum hose to
Heater/AC stuff, PCV hose, etc.

Next, look to a leaky or faulty injector. Check the spray pattern, and
look for a steady dribble coming out the middle of one or both of them.
If you see it, chances are that may be the culprit. The injector should
be throwing a nice inverted cone pattern out. A trouble lamp is enough
to usually see the pattern well, but sometimes a timing light is useful
for this if you have one handy.

As always, post back results.

> >> Will do, happen to know what the correct voltage is?
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> > however, does. I'd also look for a vacuum leak somewhere. Squirt carb
> > cleaner around the intake manifold gasket and listen for a difference.
Kiel Uyttenhove - 21 Nov 2004 05:13 GMT
Whats is IOW and IAC? I feel stupid asking these questions.

>> So that would be any where from 12 - 14 volts? Or maybe I am just
>> thinking
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>> > however, does. I'd also look for a vacuum leak somewhere. Squirt carb
>> > cleaner around the intake manifold gasket and listen for a difference.
Bob - 21 Nov 2004 05:20 GMT
IOW In other words
IAC Idle air control
No need to feel stupid.
            Bob
> Whats is IOW and IAC? I feel stupid asking these questions.
>
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
>>> > however, does. I'd also look for a vacuum leak somewhere. Squirt carb
>>> > cleaner around the intake manifold gasket and listen for a difference.
 
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