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Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Trucks / November 2006

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700R4 overheating...???

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Jon R. Pickens - 27 Oct 2006 15:48 GMT
Just had a thought...  A while back my K5 started overheating.  It had
been off the road for many months.  After I got it running again, I had
the transmission rebuilt.  I didn't ever drive it before rebuilding the
tranny...

After that, it overheated quite a bit, while driving.  At first I
thought it was happening at idle, and posted here stating exactly that.
I flushed the radiator with store-bought products, pulled it out and
did the vinegar thing...even took the heater core out of the equation.

On the trip when the (rebuilt) rear axle gave up the ghost, I paid
better attention.  It was doing the overheating while I was driving.
When I'd actually stop and let it idle, it would eventually cool down.
Now since the tranny lines connect to the radiator, is it possible that
it was to blame??  That maybe it was heating up while I was driving and
transferring that heat to the radiator faster than the radiator could
shed it?

It does have an auxilary tranny cooler on it, something that cost like
$30 from Auto Zone or a similar parts store--that's not a new addition,
been there for a while...

Also, since I lost the electronic TC lockup harness in the fire, they
claimed that they'd built the tranny so that it would lock up on its
own in 4th gear.  I never could feel it lock and I felt that the engine
RPMs were too high for the speed I was traveling with my axle ratio...

Thoughts?  Ideas?

~jp
SnoMan - 27 Oct 2006 19:29 GMT
>Also, since I lost the electronic TC lockup harness in the fire, they
>claimed that they'd built the tranny so that it would lock up on its
>own in 4th gear.  I never could feel it lock and I felt that the engine
>RPMs were too high for the speed I was traveling with my axle ratio...

Well is the TC lock harness is missing, it is not likely locking and
with a .70 OD gear ratio, unlees you have pretty deep gearing when it
is in OD and the converter is not locked it will be riding on the edge
of the stall making extra heat. Espaecail if you are pushing some
rubber too. If you use link below it will calculate torque converter
slippage. For gear ratio just plug in axle ratio times .7 for OD if
you are check slippage in 4th.

http://forum.snoman.com/slippage.php
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Jon R. Pickens - 28 Oct 2006 16:03 GMT
Well I can't check it now, but I was pulling roughly 2000rpm @ 75mph,
with 31" tires and a 3.73 gearset in the axle...  (3.73 * .7)

So...the link gave me a slippage percentage of -6.17%.

Keep in mind, I told them about the missing TCC harness up front, and
they said it wouldn't be a problem, as they were going to build it to
lockup without electronics.  The manager at the shop said he'd put
700R4s into a lot of older muscle cars without the aid of electronic
lockup.

I just question how well it actually works or whether they indeed did
that.  So what does the slippage percentage mean?

~jp

> Well is the TC lock harness is missing, it is not likely locking and
> with a .70 OD gear ratio, unlees you have pretty deep gearing when it
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
LD - 28 Oct 2006 20:44 GMT
As far as the shifting/lockup without the electronics, I can vouch for that.
I had a 700R4 rebuilt and put it in my Blazer.  It broke 4-5 times but they
eventually got it straightned out and has worked fine for the lase several
years.  I never did look into exactly how it shifts but I think it's the
position of a valve hooked up to the cable to the carb linkage.  I do recall
that's the only shift point adjustment I had to play with.
LD
> Well I can't check it now, but I was pulling roughly 2000rpm @ 75mph,
> with 31" tires and a 3.73 gearset in the axle...  (3.73 * .7)
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> > -----------------
> > TheSnoMan.com
Jon R. Pickens - 28 Oct 2006 21:43 GMT
Was it overheating on you too?  The cable running to the carb is the
throttle valve cable.  I know that controls the pressure of the fluid
in the tranny, but exactly how it does it internally in the tranny is
beyond me as I haven't yet delved into the world of tranny repair.

~jp

> As far as the shifting/lockup without the electronics, I can vouch for that.
> I had a 700R4 rebuilt and put it in my Blazer.  It broke 4-5 times but they
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that's the only shift point adjustment I had to play with.
> LD
David Johnson - 30 Oct 2006 05:43 GMT
I can't claim to be a expert but the only way I know to allow TC lockup is
by using the TCC solenoid. A very simple way to control lockup is by running
+v through your brake switch and then into the 4 prong connector in your
tranny. You don't need any ECM input this way but you still have 1 wire
going to the plug.All other switches such as temp and downshift switches are
available as case grounded single prong switches that are wired in series
with the TCC solenoid. You have to have your brake switch in series to
prevent the TC from being locked while you have the brake on, would be like
braking a standard with the clutch engaged. It is common practice to disable
the TCC solenoid and replace the TC with one designed for a nonlockup 700,
basically making it a THM 400. If you have nothing plugged into the 4 wire
connector on the drivers side of the case, just above the pan, I doubt you
have any TC lockup. At least I don't know how to make it work like that. If
anyone else does please let me know. I would guess that it is very unlikely
for your in radiator cooler to transfer enough heat from the tranny to
overheat the vehicle. If the tranny was getting that hot you would have
surely fried it by now. There is a line pressure check port directly above
where the shift linkage enters the case. I believe it is 1/4 npt. This is a
check port for diagnosing the tranny, very helpful to use a  pressure guage
with a long hose and watch it during driving. You can also screw in a temp
sender here to check your tranny temp
> Was it overheating on you too?  The cable running to the carb is the
> throttle valve cable.  I know that controls the pressure of the fluid
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> that's the only shift point adjustment I had to play with.
>> LD
Jon R. Pickens - 30 Oct 2006 15:57 GMT
Thanks for the good info David...  I will look into the electronic
lockup thing as soon as I'm able to work on the truck again.

The overheating issue really has me scratching my head.  It never
overheated before the engine fire that took it off the road.  After I
got it running, I couldn't drive it due to the TV cable being toast.
The tranny shop (of course) stated that the 700R4 was in need of a
rebuild anyway, and then when it turned out that the case was damaged,
it was just replaced with a used tranny rebuilt by them.

Unfortunately, this means that several changes were made before the
truck was on the road again, (wiring harness, tranny swapped and with a
different lockup configuration, carb changes, plus sitting for almost 6
months) so I can't simply point to any single change as the likely
culprit.

I definitely want a tranny temp gauge in the cab.  I'll probably follow
your suggestion and install one ASAP.  I'd been planning that anyway.

Thanks again,

~jp

> I can't claim to be a expert but the only way I know to allow TC lockup is
> by using the TCC solenoid. A very simple way to control lockup is by running
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> with a long hose and watch it during driving. You can also screw in a temp
> sender here to check your tranny temp
LD - 01 Nov 2006 13:39 GMT
Mine never overheated.  One failure was blamed on a defective (and too
small) TConverter.  Apparantly there's two models which are different
diameters and have different bolt holes in the flex plate.  I installed
everything myself and can vouch for the fact that the only hookup is with
the throttle cable which has some very fine adjustment positions (for shift
points).  I seem to recall that I was told the shifting is controlled only
by the valve body and pressure in this modification.  I definitely have 4
"gears".  The TC locks up around 40mph.  I was told that a "little" off on
the throttle cable adjustment can cause slippage (and maybe overheating).
LD

> Was it overheating on you too?  The cable running to the carb is the
> throttle valve cable.  I know that controls the pressure of the fluid
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > that's the only shift point adjustment I had to play with.
> > LD
David Johnson - 30 Oct 2006 05:26 GMT
Warning, THE  TV CABLE IS NOT INTENDED TO ADJUST SHIFT POINTS. DO NOT USE IT
FOR THIS PURPOSE.
> As far as the shifting/lockup without the electronics, I can vouch for
> that.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>> > -----------------
>> > TheSnoMan.com
LD - 01 Nov 2006 14:15 GMT
As I understand it, there is a position that is optimal.  A click in or out
from this point is still OK and WILL change the shift points.  Too much
deviation from the optimal can damage the transmission.  As I recall, the
"starting point is to adjust tight and maybe with some help, mash the pedal
to the floor, causing the adjustment to "slip" into the correct position.
this may work only with the modified valve body for the non-electric shift.
LD

> Warning, THE  TV CABLE IS NOT INTENDED TO ADJUST SHIFT POINTS. DO NOT USE IT
> FOR THIS PURPOSE.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> >> > -----------------
> >> > TheSnoMan.com
SnoMan - 01 Nov 2006 21:52 GMT
>So...the link gave me a slippage percentage of -6.17%.

It means that basically 6 5 of power is being lost to pumping loss and
heat at cruise or more simply for every 100 RPM's the engine develops,
the inputshaft to transmisson does 94. ALso I might mention that early
700R4 did have tranny cooling isues that were partaily resolved in 84
and fully resolved by 87 models. I seem that from 81 to 83, GM mostly
bypassed the tranny cooler in OD (not completely but the majority of
the flow to it was bypassed) and this caused a lot of heating
problems. Not quick sure what their logic was for doing this at first
either.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
 
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