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Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Trucks / February 2008Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better
This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... 1. American Car Companies have been forced to start making more reliable cars in this decade because American consumers by and large ditched the "buy American even if it sucks" motto in the trash. 2. Asian cars by and far are still more reliable than the average American automobile... Now before any rural country bumpkins go accusing me of being anti-American... don't think for a min that I like seeing Michigan become a cesspool just because a bunch of tards bought the "buy American at all cost" B.S.! mr4701 __________________________________________________________________________ http://www6.autonet.ca/News/story.cfm?story=/News/2005/03/07/953108.html --"Customers reported an average of 17 problems per 100 vehicles for 2004 models from DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group, Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp., the magazine (Consumer Reports magazine.) said. That was down from 18 problems per 100 in 2003. Japanese and Korean automakers had a rate of 12 problems per 100 vehicles -- unchanged in the magazine's last three surveys. European automakers, some of whom have battled quality issues in recent years, had 21 problems per 100 vehicles. That's up from 20 a year ago."-- > anti-American... don't think for a min that I like seeing Michigan become a > cesspool too late > This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... ....... > 2. Asian cars by and far are still more reliable than the average American > automobile... It is a three year old article, based on a completely unscientific data collection scheme, and the difference was still only one half a problem per car. I can't imagine the result are statistically significant. Therefore your conclusions aren't either. Ed >> This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > ....... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ed Not to mention, what's a problem? If I am unhappy with a trim or finish issue, that hardly affects reliability but is counted as a problem. Unless such stats are categorized in a meaningful way, they are not even interesting, let alone useful. Good point.... Last summer, I bought an 05 Mustang convertible for my loving bride.... Late in the summer, we were treated to more than our "usual" share of rain.... All this rain made it difficult to drive with the top down.... not too bad on the highway, but a real booger in town.... I demanded that this problem be addressed under warranty... and have yet to have a satisfactory response.... Quite the opposite... they allowed the rain to turn to snow...... And now it is IMPOSSIBLE to retract the top.... I'll bet that if I had purchased a Japanese convertible, I would have none of these concerns.... >>> This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... >> ....... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Unless such stats are categorized in a meaningful way, they are not even > interesting, let alone useful. > Good point.... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'll bet that if I had purchased a Japanese convertible, I would have > none of these concerns.... My first Canyon ('04) suffered what was a common problem on that first year's model - missing sealant around the firewall, allowing water into the cab. Of course that issue hit their problems per hundred stats, but once fixed is done and has no impact on reliability. There is no doubt that in general terms the imports have historically been way in front on fit and finish. That contributes to their better stats. But that does not translate into reliability. On another note, resale value is in large part a function of # available, not just reliable. Because GM has historically moved so many vehicles in fleet sales, and because they have generally had such a large market share, all of their vehicles are much more plentiful in the resale market, thereby pushing down prices, regardless of reliability. Over the last decade, reliability gaps have narrowed, and continue to do so, thereby throwing into question the price premium the imports continue to charge. Yet the perception continues to be that NA cars are substantially worse. I am reminded of something I read a couple of years ago, where Saturn owners surveyed as being much more satisfied with their vehicles and much more likely to purchase another Saturn than was the case for other NA cars. Yet the stats showed that they were no better, in some cases worse, than any of the NA vehicles. There is a huge perception issue out there that if anything a bigger problem for Detroit than their actual products. >>>> This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... >>>> ....... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> Unless such stats are categorized in a meaningful way, they are not >> even interesting, let alone useful. >> Last summer, I bought an 05 Mustang convertible for my loving >> bride.... Late in the summer, we were treated to more than our [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >year's model - missing sealant around the firewall, allowing water into the >cab. Jim had the TOP DOWN, it didn't leak. <G> I like Mustang drop tops, too! What a great looking car! >> Good point.... >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > There is a huge perception issue out there that if anything a bigger > problem for Detroit than their actual products. I think this has a lot to do with the way the manufacturers dealers treat you. I have owned GM, Ford, Dodge and Toyota vehicles. All of them had their problems including the Toyota which had the most major problem. The truck was a 97 Tacoma 4x4 extended cab with a 4 banger and a manual tranny. After I had only had it a month and with less than 3000 miles on it the transmission started to howl worse than a S. Dallas hooker. I took the truck to the Toyota dealer who immediately put the truck in the shop and paid for a rental car for me. The problem turned out to be a bearing in the transmission that was bad. However instead of just fixing this bearing the dealer decided to order a whole new tranny from Japan. I was told it would take 3 months to get the new tranny and put it in my truck. The dealer said Toyota would pay for my rental car the entire time which they did. They wanted to take care of their customer and I was really impressed. Now I also owned a Dodge Ram PU and a Chevrolet Silverado PU that both vibrated at highway speeds. They were horrible to drive. And both trucks pulled to the right from day 1 of ownership. Each and every time I took these trucks to the dealer I got the same response from them. "Unable to duplicate." I even had the Dodge service adviser ride with me and he noticed the vibration too. Mechanic said "unable to duplicate" every time. Now do I think Japanese vehicles are better than American vehicles? No. However I do remember how Toyota went way above and beyond what they had to do to make me happy. And I remember this when it comes time to buy another vehicle. And I'm sure I'm not alone. And about Consumer Reports reporting that Japanese vehicles are better. I take what Consumer Reports says with a grain of salt. They have hated American cars for years and have always been biased towards Japanese vehicles. I inherited a 1990 GMC Sierra with 5.7l and auto. The truck has 140K miles on it. This truck looks and drives like the day it was driven off the dealer's lot. The only things replaced were an alternator and the battery. It is one good truck. I think you can get good and bad in any brand. But it's how the manufacturers treat you that sticks in the mind of the consumer. I know I sure do. Bob >> This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > ....... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ed Some people still deny global warming. You cannot convince everyone that GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy. <...> > Some people still deny global warming. You cannot convince everyone that > GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy. Especially the people like me who have had a Ford for a long time, put many, many miles (150k+ mi) on them, and still have them working nicely, without major repairs. Jeff > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Jeff Same as me saying "its cold in Dallas today" so there is no global warming. Your truth is not the same for everyone. My father has a 2006 Ford Explorer and that spent tons of time in the shop. He had a Windstar and Escape also that had issues.. it was always something... He finally got A Escape Hybrid but has oathed that if this sugs up, he is not buying another. Dad is one of those American Pride guys. >> <...> >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > He finally got A Escape Hybrid but has oathed that if this sugs up, he > is not buying another. Dad is one of those American Pride guys. Global warming is a socialist lie and my 2000 Impala has 177,000 miles on it with few real problems. and my 1989 ford bronco with 202,000 milws without a major repair. none to engine. old john Hello, NapalmHeart! You wrote on Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:37:12 -0500: N> "Mr4701" <NoExists@Earth.net> wrote in message N> news:KmRkj.2372$Yl.1549@trnddc01... ??>> ??>> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message ??>> news:maRkj.2371$Yl.2182@trnddc01... ??>>> Mr4701 wrote: ??>>> ??>>> <...> ??>>> ??>>>> Some people still deny global warming. You cannot convince everyone ??>>>> that GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy. ??>>> ??>>> Especially the people like me who have had a Ford for a long time, ??>>> put many, many miles (150k+ mi) on them, and still have them working ??>>> nicely, without major repairs. ??>>> ??>>> Jeff ??>> ??>> Same as me saying "its cold in Dallas today" so there is no global ??>> warming. Your truth is not the same for everyone. My father has a 2006 ??>> Ford Explorer and that spent tons of time in the shop. He had a ??>> Windstar and Escape also that had issues.. it was always something... ??>> He finally got A Escape Hybrid but has oathed that if this sugs up, he ??>> is not buying another. Dad is one of those American Pride guys. ??>> With best regards, ajeeperman@comcast.net. E-mail: ajeeperman@comcast.net Global warming is based on the average yearly temperature rising a few tenths of a degree/year. There are times in the past where the temperature of the earth changed over 10 degrees/year and there was no industrial manufacturing at that time. Alot of money is spending on trying to solve global warming, which in reality has no short term solution. No money is being spent on adapting to the effects of global warming in the mean time which would help the population survive the short term effets. Lets look at the Far East they signed the recent air quality treaty, but with the stipulation if they do not make an effort to meet the standards they will not be punished. One of the reason's the US didn't sign it. > <...> > >> Some people still deny global warming. You cannot convince everyone >> that GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy. > Some people still deny global warming. You cannot convince everyone that > GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy. You certainly cannot convince those who have actual first hand experiences over decades. Unlike you, those people rely on more than hyperbole.  Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> Some people still deny global warming. You cannot convince everyone that >> GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy. > > You certainly cannot convince those who have actual first hand experiences > over decades. Unlike you, those people rely on more than hyperbole. Consumer Reports is hyperbole now eh? Interesting. My first hand experience is seeing 4 Fords spend plenty of time in the shop. Since Toyota, I have not had one problem. >>> Some people still deny global warming. You cannot convince everyone that >>> GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is seeing 4 Fords spend plenty of time in the shop. Since Toyota, I have not > had one problem. And with the exception of the V6 engine itself, our Camry has been the worst vehicle for reliability since our one and only Ford. Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron. > Consumer Reports is hyperbole now eh? Interesting. My first hand > experience is seeing 4 Fords spend plenty of time in the shop. Since > Toyota, I have not had one problem. CR is nothing less than hyperbole and distortion. God lord dude - what are you... 19 years old? Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > > Consumer Reports is hyperbole now eh? Interesting. My first hand > > experience is seeing 4 Fords spend plenty of time in the shop. Since > > Toyota, I have not had one problem. > > CR is nothing less than hyperbole and distortion. God lord dude - what are > you... 19 years? How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings or when they say that some Toyotas are unreliable? "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message > How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with > different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings When the same car with different nameplates get far different ratings. > "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message >> How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with >> different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings > > When the same car with different nameplates get far different ratings. ...like the Vibe compared to the Matrix in a recent issue? s >> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message >>> How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > ...like the Vibe compared to the Matrix in a recent issue? s Or the front wheel drive Chevy Novas compared to the same year Toyota Corollas? Whitelightning >>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message >>>> How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Whitelightning Another analogy exactly. Causes me to WONDER: Is CR that slack? Is CR getting bribed? Causes me to KNOW: I don't put lotsa faith in their testing! It'd be interesting to look back at how they compared Honda Passport and Isuzu Rodeo. s > "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message >> How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with >> different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings > > When the same car with different nameplates get far different ratings. In recent year I believe CR has been blending the data collected for different nameplates that are substantially the same vehicle underneath the sheet metal. In the 80's it was almost comical how different Buicks, Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs would rate. Lately, all the GM cars of the same platform tend to get the same reliability ratings from Consumer Reports, yet they still get different ratings in the JD Powers Surveys. This leads me to believe that CR is blending results to avoid an appearance of inconsistency. I enjoy CR's road tests, even though I often disagree with their opinions. I think their actual hard data collection is the best you can get. But I think the CR reliability survey is a joke. The data collection scheme is flawed, the participant database is not even close to random, and the actual questionnaire does not collect enough information to draw the sort of conclusions implied by the information presented in the magazine. JD Power does not claim to provide the sort of detailed information that CR CLAIMS to provide, but what they do provide is much more reliable. It still suffers from the flaw that the data collection scheme depends on the Customer to decide what is a problem, but if you are judging Customer perception (which is what JDP is trying to measure) it is OK to do so. When you are trying to claim the data presented is hard data (as CR does) it is NOT OK to depend on Customer perceptions (yet this is exactly what CR does). Ed >Some people still deny global warming. And why wouldn't they? I've seen nothing compelling me to believe that it exists. Of course the friction caused by your hand wringing is certainly creating some degree of heat. > You cannot convince everyone that >GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy. Certainly not me. I've owned them (many of them) for close to 40 years with nothing more than consumables needing replaced. > This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > mr4701 The report was made over two years ago. Since then, Toyota had record numbers of recalls and Consumer Reports decided to no longer automatically rate new Toyota models are reliable. Gee, Toyota is as good as they were cracked up to be in the story. And, America car makers have shown improved quality. Jeff > __________________________________________________________________________ > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > whom have battled quality issues in recent years, had 21 problems per 100 > vehicles. That's up from 20 a year ago."-- >> This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > And, America car makers have shown improved quality. I agree that American autos have made improved quality.. but its because folks like I and others stopped buying American and demanding better quality... Name one manufacture that has a better quality over another. Just a hint, it is perceived quality, not true. And I was a Toy mech for a few years, and can confidently say they weren't any better, not by a long shot. > >> This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > folks like I and others stopped buying American and demanding better > quality... > Name one manufacture that has a better quality over another. Just a hint, > it is perceived quality, not true. And I was a Toy mech for a few years, and > can confidently say they weren't any better, not by a long shot. Unless you compare actual stats comparing one model to another, all you can say is that Toyotas has problems like all others. However, there is no way for you to tell if the problems were less common, more common or about as common as in other brands. My dad rebuilt engines for years. I can tell you that Olds, Chevys and Pontiacs all had their problems. But that is because he got a lot of business for their dealers. And the car makers are not very fond of releasing their service information on their cars for a variety of reasons, mostly competitive and marketing. Jeff > Name one manufacture that has a better quality over another. Just a hint, > it is perceived quality, not true. And I was a Toy mech for a few years, > and > can confidently say they weren't any better, not by a long shot. > "Mr4701" <NoExists@Earth.net> wrote in message The resell values speak for themselves... Give someone the option to buy a Camry with 150k on it or a Ford Taurus with 150k on it and they are going to take the Camry. What,'s your point. A Mercedes has a higher resale value also. So what your saying is, your willing to put out more cash initially for a perceived quality for a lesser vehicle. Of coarse they have a higher resale value on them cause they cost more initially. I for one would not buy a Camry ever, over priced, bland, although a decent power train. But I got a more reliable 08 Fusion over a camry ( according to CR ) which I discount their methods to begin with, and got much, much, more of a car. And Again I don't buy a vehicle on the basis of it's resale value, which would be a huge mistake. > > Name one manufacture that has a better quality over another. Just a hint, > > it is perceived quality, not true. And I was a Toy mech for a few years, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Camry with 150k on it or a Ford Taurus with 150k on it and they are going to > take the Camry. > What,'s your point. A Mercedes has a higher resale value also. So what > your [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > begin with, and got much, much, more of a car. And Again I don't buy a > vehicle on the basis of it's resale value, which would be a huge mistake. My point is when people look for used cars.. they look for ones that are reliable and last. > My point is when people look for used cars.. they look for ones that are > reliable and last. Actually SOME people look for the ones they BELIEVE are reliable and last at an attractive cost. Other look for ones that they thing meet their needs for other reasons. For instance, my SO's Son bought a used BMW 740il, Everyone, including me, warned that they were unreliable and wouldn't last. He bought it anyhow. And all our warnings turned out to be spot on. He is driving a Honda now. Perception is the operative word. You buy what you perceive will meet your needs at an attractive cost. Most people don't actually know that the car they are buying will be reliable and last a long time. Unless you know the history of the vehicle - the way it was treated and maintained - you are taking a gamble, even if you buy a used Toyota (or maybe especially if you buy a used Toyota). I have two Sisters, They both drive there cars into the ground. One has a Honda Civic, the other a Ford Escape. I can gaurantee that if you bought the Ford Escape, you would get a far better vehicle. My Sister than owns the Escape follows the maintenance schedule to the letter. Any problem is addressed at once. My other Sister only changes the oil when I her harass her about it. Both cars have been incredibly reliable. The Escape has needed a coolant level sensor (warranty), a crusie control cable ($10), and a brake booster. The Civic has needed plug wires and two mufflers (but the clutch will go soon). The Civic uses at least a quart of oil between changes. The Escape uses none. The interior of the Honda is dull and the plastic parts are falling apart. The Honda exterior paint is faded and falling off the bumpers. The Escape looks like new inside and out. I much rather have a well amintained used Ford than a poorly maintained Toyota. However once the car is on a dealers lot, you probably won't be able to tell which is the better vehicle from looks alone. Ed to add to that.. I am not speaking of Mercedes and such. People willing to buy those are willing to put the money into them even if they go in the shop. Pay attention to my next post... > >> This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Or maybe because its not made in America. I know my Suburban is made in Mexico, but my Camry is American made! I owned a Dodge made by Mitsubishi in Japan. American Corp. and American made are not the same any more. >>>> This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... >>>> 1. American Car Companies have been forced to start making more reliable [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Mitsubishi in Japan. American Corp. and American made are not the same > any more. there are more things to be considered when using the term "made in america" where was the engineering done. where was the tooling built, where was the component parts built etc. there may be more american parts in a car assembled in mexico than a toyota "assembled in america" not the least taxes paid to which gov and many other thing. > This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > mr4701 GM's Shareholders are happy! Even though GM is losing money on car sales and bad mortgage loans, they *are* making money by selling off divisions. So, as long as the Shareholders are happy, GM is happy. But, they can only sell so many divisions before they run out, and then it'll be tough making money from selling *cars* (imagine that! GM making money from selling *cars*!!!). > But, they can only sell so many divisions before they run out, and then > it'll be tough making money from selling *cars* (imagine that! GM making > money from selling *cars*!!!). Maybe they should quit trying to do that, and just sell trucks... they aren't real good at making cars... > This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > whom have battled quality issues in recent years, had 21 problems per 100 > vehicles. That's up from 20 a year ago."-- The other side of this, shitwad, is that american unions are driving up the cost of the cheaply made sh.t that all of us buy and enjoy. Boys look out when Toyota gets chev and ford cornered. Ford and Chev are masters at that market, and its going to take a lot of little hands to beat it... the tundra isn't even coming close, and the titan has a long way to go! <snip> >The other side of this, shitwad, is that american unions are driving up >the cost of the cheaply made sh.t that all of us buy and enjoy. Don't blame unions for driving up the cost. They have a right to a decent wages and health insurance. If it's cheaply made, it's not the fault of the unions either, they build it not design it... shitwad. -- --------------------------------- --- -- - Posted with NewsLeecher v3.9 Beta 2 Web @ http://www.newsleecher.com/?usenet ------------------- ----- ---- -- - > Boys look out when Toyota gets chev and ford cornered. Ford and Chev are > masters at that market, and its going to take a lot of little hands to > beat it... the tundra isn't even coming close, and the titan has a long > way to go! Why are you afraid of competition? > This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... It demonstrated two things 3 years ago. It's irrelevant today. Ted >2. Asian cars by and far are still more reliable than the average American >automobile... <snip> Partially false. Compare a new Ford Taurus or Fusion to the "new" Camry. >Now before any rural country bumpkins go accusing me of being >anti-American... don't think for a min that I like seeing Michigan become a >cesspool just because a bunch of tards bought the "buy American at all cost" >B.S.! <snip> That wasn't the problem. The problem was idiot CEOs and upper management, whose only goal was to get a merit raise, not build a good product. The US corporate business model is all about the sales pitch and raking in the cash, nothing else. Despite all his self-blather, Lee Iacocca was a big advocate of sales over engineering, as his behavior with the star crossed A-604 Torqueflite transaxle proved in the '80s. Sure, there were some 'tards that bought Chevies because they were American, and I thank them for keeping US auto workers in jobs. The problem the UAW guys had was that they were given sh.t products to assemble...every nickel of profit designed out of them to the buyer's detriment. The Japanese NEVER designed cars like that, and it killed off Detroit for about 30 years. But now, watch out...Ford has improved dramatically, and GM's new Malibu shows initial promise. However, the US public, being as dumb as they are, won't realize this for probably the next decade. The Chinese? If the US Big 3 gets their act together, they won't have a chance. Already, Hyundai, after battling two decades of really bad reputation, is already having a hard time in the US market and has to keep their prices artificially low to sell Rios and the like. Once the word gets out to the 'tard buyers, the era of Japanese domination could well be over, and the new Asian Johnny-come-latelies could have some serious issues competing. The low US dollar right now also is Detroit's best friend...IF they'd quit "off shoring" all their production! GM's already using Mexican drive trains in Saturns, which will probably kill the line off in the next couple of years, anyway. Another Roger Smith wet dream collapses. Per DeserTBoB: >Sure, there were some 'tards that bought Chevies because they were >American, Here's one... '98 Suburban. And no matter what they spin about GM quality having come up in recent years, I won't exactly be eager to make the same mistake again. SignaturePeteCresswell >Per DeserTBoB: >>Sure, there were some 'tards that bought Chevies because they were >>American, > >Here's one... '98 Suburban. *groan*...whatta shitbox. How many 4L80E trannies did YOU eat? >And no matter what they spin about GM quality having come up in >recent years, I won't exactly be eager to make the same mistake >again. <snip> Once bitten, many times shy...good policy, really. I guess you also won't be voting for any Republicans again anytime soon, either. Per DeserTBoB: >>Here's one... '98 Suburban. > >*groan*...whatta shitbox. How many 4L80E trannies did YOU eat? I think the grand total of valve body replacements/repairs is 4 so far. Approximately every 30k. "/repairs" bc the last time around I had an independent shop bore it out and put in a sleeve of more robust material - which is supposed tb the "real" fix. Time will tell. What burned me, though, was discovering how many years the valve body thing had been a known problem in GM - yet they never fixed it. *Major* attitude problem there IMHO - one that tends to undermine whatever they spin about better quality. SignaturePeteCresswell Per DeserTBoB: >I guess you also won't be voting for any Republicans again anytime >soon, either. You mean the former bearers of the mantel of fiscal responsibility? I tended towards voting Republican most of my life. Last election? Next election? Take a guess.... SignaturePeteCresswell >Per DeserTBoB: >>I guess you also won't be voting for any Republicans again anytime [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Take a guess.... So I guess you want to vote for the Dims? ROFLMAO I have to agree that the 'Republicans' have stayed, but not as far as the Dims... SignatureScott in Florida Per Scott in Florida: >I have to agree that the 'Republicans' have stayed, but not as far as the >Dims... Turning a 200 billion surplus into what?.... Half trillion deficit? Probably more by all accounts. One can attack the 200 billion surplus numbers.... but nobody can say it was deficit. Likewise, with enough creative accounting, one can probably minimize the current deficit.... but I don't think that any responsible person would deny that it's size is significant. That's a pretty big stray for a party whose traditional values are rooted in economics 101 - or used to be. Don't get me wrong: I don't think the dems are going to be any better. Now that the party of supposed fiscal responsibility has discovered that it can successfully pander to the credit card mentality, it seems to me like there's really no hope at all - and the dems are going to do the same thing. Anybody else hear the attacks on Huckabee to the effect that he raised taxes in his home state? In the long run we're all going down either way unless the national consciousness is somehow miraculously raised to include the idea that you have to pay for what you buy and paying now is a *lot* cheaper than paying later.... and if you don't want to pay now you probably shouldn't buy now. But I wouldn't hold my breath. My only rationales are: -------------------------------------------------------------- - Turning around and voting again for the guys that sold me out in such a huge way would send the wrong message - not that anybody gives a damn how one wacko in southeastern Pennsylvania votes - but still... - Seems to me like the only thing that's left after the Republicans reneged on monetary/fiscal responsibility is a bunch of mean-spirited people who pander to the religious right and politicize science and technology to a degree that previous politicians have only dreamed of. - If I live long enough, I'm probably going to be ruined by inflation either way, so I might as well vote for the side that shows a little heart for the have-nots. -------------------------------------------------------------- OTOH, his party aside, I could go for McCaine. He fell off the "straight talk express" briefly during the market thing in Baghdad... but in general he seems to have the most personal integrity of all of them. Rudy seems too combative and egotistical to have his finger on the trigger. I've also read accounts of him firing people because they got too much good press - taking glory away from him. And then there's judgment and the Bernie What's-His-Name thing.... But the combativeness alone disqualifies him in my book. Huckabee sounds like the mensch of the group, but not believing in evolution has such wide-ranging intellectual implications - aggravated by the current administrations's politicization of science. Besides, a number of truly horrible rulers have been notably charming.... so the mensch bit probably counts for zip. Romney's such a chameleon that I don't have any feeling for who he is. Going back to the dems, I've heard Warren Buffet - who I would say probably has more IQ points than me, my immediate family, and all my ancestors put together... and is definitely nobody's fool - say that both Clinton or Obama are fully capable of doing a good job. My biggest worry is having a democratic president and a democratic congress at the same time. Maybe I'll vote Republican next congressional go-around. Seems like the same party in power in both places is just bad ju-ju. Republican/Republican... Democratic/Democratic.... same thing. Too many hands in the cookie jar and not enough adversarial relationships to make them at least feel nervous. SignaturePeteCresswell >Per Scott in Florida: >>I have to agree that the 'Republicans' have stayed, but not as far as the [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] >thing. Too many hands in the cookie jar and not enough >adversarial relationships to make them at least feel nervous. Well said. I really don't have an argument on anything you said. Unfortunately, the future of the country really rides on the Supreme Court. Electing a Dem would be a total disaster (the ninth Circuit Court is a prime example of what we would get nationally). I'd like to see the Supreme Court interpret laws based on the Constitution. SignatureScott in Florida > The Chinese? If the US Big 3 gets their act together, they won't have > a chance. Already, Hyundai, after battling two decades of really bad [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Another Roger Smith wet dream collapses. Do you mean Kia? The Rio is made by Kia. Kia quality is in the hole. But everything I've heard about Hyundai is that they have turned themselves around including their quality. Bob "Bob M" <ram1220@vzavenue.net> wrote in message > Do you mean Kia? The Rio is made by Kia. Kia quality is in the hole. But > everything I've heard about Hyundai is that they have turned themselves > around including their quality. > > Bob Kia has been taken over by Hyundai. I read it was at the request of the Korean government to help turn them around. I used to laugh at Hyundai and thought anyone buying them made a poor choice. I bought an 07 Sonata. With 30,000 miles, it is still perfect and has never been back to the dealer. Only service is oil changes and wiper blades. I like the performance, the handling and yes, even the style. It has every feature and more of the Lucerne I was considering. > This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > mr4701 > This statement holds more truth to cars that were built in japan...Korea..they make cars? ( Kia YOU CRAZY!!) Anyway for all Toyota's or Honda's that are made/assembled in the US...need I say more....As for re-sale value well again need i say more...still hoping for the day I can see an American product that will be reliable and give me some re-sale value then I would consider a switch. Just my 2 cents.. > __________________________________________________________________________ > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > whom have battled quality issues in recent years, had 21 problems per 100 > vehicles. That's up from 20 a year ago."-- Just one problem. There is no correlation between what Consumer Reports says and REALITY. > This is an article from 2005... and it demonstrates two things... > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > whom have battled quality issues in recent years, had 21 problems per 100 > vehicles. That's up from 20 a year ago."-- |
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