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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / October 2004

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300M In Northampton ???????? (UK interest)

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Dave - 22 Aug 2004 22:26 GMT
I know I wasn't dreaming, becaause I was driving at the time.

I had just left the M1 to go into Northampton on Saturday at lunchtime, when
my wife let out a gasp of amazement, and pointed across the road in shock -
There was a Chrysler 300M going in the opposite direction. What a fantastic
sight it was - A real headturner of a monster car.

The thing that surprised me the most was the fact that it was UK registered,
albeit 04, AND it was a RHD model, so probably not an import.

To the best of my knowledge, it won't be released here until late September
at the earliest, according to my local Chrysler dealership. They couldn't
even give me a proposed retail price for the beast.

Does anyone know if there are any UK dealerships selling the 300M already?

The Chrysler UK website is worse than useless, with only half the flashy
images displaying at any time.

Cheers,

Dave
MoPar Man - 23 Aug 2004 04:28 GMT
> M1 / Northampton
> There was a Chrysler 300M going in the opposite direction.
> A real headturner of a monster car.

Are you talking abou the 300C?  (yes, it's a monster car alright.  It
came right out of Monster Garage it did).

> Does anyone know if there are any UK dealerships selling the 300M
> already?

The 300M (based on the LH "cab-forward" chasis) was produced from 1999
to 2004 model years.  

The 300 and it's monstrous varients (C, Hemi, etc) are 2005 models.
They're based on the LX "Chopped-Bentley Cab with SUV front end"

> The Chrysler UK website is worse than useless, with only half
> the flashy images displaying at any time.

Daimler's track record, or ability, or desire to sell Chrysler
vehicles in Europe is negligent, retarded, boardering on criminal (if
you're a shareholder).  Vehicles that have no direct corresponding
Merc model, like PT Cruiser or Jeep, fare a little better than sedans.
Dave - 23 Aug 2004 10:18 GMT
> > M1 / Northampton
> > There was a Chrysler 300M going in the opposite direction.
> > A real headturner of a monster car.
>
> Are you talking abou the 300C?  (yes, it's a monster car alright.  It
> came right out of Monster Garage it did).

My bad - it was indeed the 300C. I seem to have a dyslexic keyboard. Either
that or I was still SO excited at seeing the beast that all rational thought
flew out the window. I suspect the latter.
Dori A Schmetterling - 23 Aug 2004 12:26 GMT
In the UK the Chrysler range available was 'always' limited, even before DC
days.  (I am talking after Chrysler's withdrawal from manufacturing here, of
course.)

Jeep sells pretty well and one sees quite a few PT Cruisers in London (many
with engines not availabe in the US, I suspect).  It's only after the
takeover/merger that more models are becoming available, probably because DC
can't be seen to be neglecting (too much) the Chrysler range in Europe now
that it owns it.

DAS
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[..........]

> Daimler's track record, or ability, or desire to sell Chrysler
> vehicles in Europe is negligent, retarded, boardering on criminal (if
> you're a shareholder).  Vehicles that have no direct corresponding
> Merc model, like PT Cruiser or Jeep, fare a little better than sedans.
SamMan - 25 Aug 2004 02:43 GMT
It was a pre production version.  That's all there are at the present time.

> I know I wasn't dreaming, becaause I was driving at the time.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Dave
deadbeat - 25 Aug 2004 19:32 GMT
And anyway it is imported in UK. Just because it is right-hand drive does
not mean it is made there.
> It was a pre production version.  That's all there are at the present time.
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> >
> > Dave
Dori A Schmetterling - 25 Aug 2004 21:36 GMT
Dave didn't mean that, even if it looked like that.  He meant -- I am pretty
sure -- that it was an official import via dealer channels rather than a
personal or grey one.

DAS
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> And anyway it is imported in UK. Just because it is right-hand drive does
> not mean it is made there.
...................
Daniel J. Stern - 26 Aug 2004 04:16 GMT
> And anyway it is imported in UK. Just because it is right-hand drive does
> not mean it is made there.

The UK, unlike the US or Canada, has a program whereby private individuals
are permitted to import non-UK-spec cars to the UK and do the compliance
conversion work themselves (or arrange on their own to have it done). The
program is known as SVA, Single Vehicle Approval, and that is what the
original poster meant when he said the 300 he saw was probably"not an
import".
Dori A Schmetterling - 26 Aug 2004 18:49 GMT
Having the steering wheel on the left does not make it non-UK spec from a
government-regulatory point of view.

A note I found interesting on the UK govt website about importing vehicles
from North America:

"Vehicles imported from North America
Generally speaking, most USA and Canadian design and construction standards
will be accepted as being equivalent to Single Vehicle Approval standards.
There are, however, two important exceptions in addition to the above
left-hand traffic, RASS and number plate requirements.

 a.. Many North American cars follow a different convention for the colour
of their external lights. Front side lights, and all turning indicators are
likely to require modification - including the addition of amber front side
repeater turn indicators.
 b.. There are no standards on external projections in North America.
Beware of vehicles with features such as "bull bars", non-retracting
mascots, and protruding exhaust pipes."

In particular the last point suggests that the US authorities are less
focused on pedestrian safety (or the car manufacturers' lobby is
resisting...).

DAS

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[...........]

> The UK, unlike the US or Canada, has a program whereby private individuals
> are permitted to import non-UK-spec cars to the UK and do the compliance
> conversion work themselves (or arrange on their own to have it done). The
> program is known as SVA, Single Vehicle Approval, and that is what the
> original poster meant when he said the 300 he saw was probably"not an
> import".
Geoff - 26 Aug 2004 19:52 GMT
> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:49:20 +0100
> From: Dori A Schmetterling <ng@nospam.co.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> focused on pedestrian safety (or the car manufacturers' lobby is
> resisting...).

Yeah, it happens all the time.  Somebody driving a vehicle with big
exhaust pipes takes out two or three pedestrians at the knees as they drive
alongside the sidewalk!

There's a reason why there are no 'standards on external projections' --
they're not necessary!

What will the safety advocates come up with next?  This is
getting hard to believe.

You know, I bet we could reduce the accident fatality rate down to
pretty much zero if we just mandated the installation of governors on
every vehicle that limited their speed to 5MPH.  Sure, a few drunks
sleeping in the road might still get killed, but nothing's perfect.

--Geoff
Minnie Bannister - 26 Aug 2004 20:31 GMT
We wouldn't need any regulations for anything if people were (a) smart,
and (b) considerate of others. Unfortunately, (a) approximately half the
population is of below average intelligence, and (b) not all of those
who are smart care anything about anyone else.

MB

On 08/26/04 02:52 pm Geoff put fingers to keyboard and launched the
following message into cyberspace:

>>  b.. There are no standards on external projections in North America.
>>Beware of vehicles with features such as "bull bars", non-retracting
>>mascots, and protruding exhaust pipes."

>>In particular the last point suggests that the US authorities are less
>>focused on pedestrian safety (or the car manufacturers' lobby is
>>resisting...).

> Yeah, it happens all the time.  Somebody driving a vehicle with big
> exhaust pipes takes out two or three pedestrians at the knees as they drive
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> every vehicle that limited their speed to 5MPH.  Sure, a few drunks
> sleeping in the road might still get killed, but nothing's perfect.
Dori A Schmetterling - 26 Aug 2004 22:08 GMT
If you had stopped to think for 60 seconds before hitting the keys you might
have thought of all the protruding badges and mascots, never mind bull bars
etc.

An obvious example is the upright Mercedes star, which must be able to bend
at the base on contact.  If it didn't, it would rip somebody open.

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[.........]

> Yeah, it happens all the time.  Somebody driving a vehicle with big
> exhaust pipes takes out two or three pedestrians at the knees as they drive
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> What will the safety advocates come up with next?  This is
> getting hard to believe.
...........................
robs440 - 27 Aug 2004 01:24 GMT
rip somebody open?  how ?

> If you had stopped to think for 60 seconds before hitting the keys you might
> have thought of all the protruding badges and mascots, never mind bull bars
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> > getting hard to believe.
> ...........................
Dori A Schmetterling - 27 Aug 2004 15:09 GMT
See Rickety's post below.  Somebody sliding over the bonnet (hood, engine
compartment cover) can easily sustain substantial additional injuries.

DAS
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> rip somebody open?  how ?
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> > > getting hard to believe.
> > ...........................
robs440 - 28 Aug 2004 04:41 GMT
so tell me why the hell is someone sliding over the hood of the damn car?
this aint the dukes of hazard here........

> See Rickety's post below.  Somebody sliding over the bonnet (hood, engine
> compartment cover) can easily sustain substantial additional injuries.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> > > > getting hard to believe.
> > > ...........................
Dori A Schmetterling - 28 Aug 2004 16:30 GMT
There are no stoopid questions, but that is a stoopid question... (or are
you being sarcastic?)

DAS
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> so tell me why the hell is someone sliding over the hood of the damn car?
> this aint the dukes of hazard here........
[...........]
Daniel J. Stern - 28 Aug 2004 16:48 GMT
> > See Rickety's post below.  Somebody sliding over the bonnet (hood, engine
> > compartment cover) can easily sustain substantial additional injuries.

> so tell me why the hell is someone sliding over the hood of the damn car?
> this aint the dukes of hazard here........

No, it's the real world, wherein unfortunately cars collide with
pedestrians. You *really* have trouble figuring this out...?
robs440 - 29 Aug 2004 15:19 GMT
well if you hit someone yeah i can see that.......

it just kinda sounds like they are trying to make you safe from yourselves.

> > > See Rickety's post below.  Somebody sliding over the bonnet (hood, engine
> > > compartment cover) can easily sustain substantial additional injuries.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No, it's the real world, wherein unfortunately cars collide with
> pedestrians. You *really* have trouble figuring this out...?
Geoff - 27 Aug 2004 14:10 GMT
> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:08:41 +0100
> From: Dori A Schmetterling <ng@nospam.co.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> --

But the way you're making it sound our vehicles are just full of sharp,
immobile projections!

They're not.

Surely there are side mirrors that don't fold down, but 'mascots' (I
take it you mean hood ornaments) are almost always flexible as with the
Mercedes star you suggest.  They're largely out of style at the moment,
incidently, although there are some makes out there that have them.

All I'm saying is that the amount of protrusions seems more than a bit
overstated.  I mean really, exhaust pipes that stick out and harm
pedestrians?  That would be really and truly unusual.

Regarding 'bull bars' -- (I take it you mean brush guards or 'push
bars').  Yes, these would be unfriendly to pedestrians in a collision.
I happen to disagree that we need to go out of our way to redesign the
front ends of US vehicles to be 'friendlier' to pedestrians in
collisions.  Hence my comment about just governing cars down to a safe
5MPH,  If safety is the overriding concern, there's a lot of more
obvious things we could do.

But driving is an acceptable risk that a hundred million or so
people undertake every day in the US.  At some point, all the "safety"
concerns about the vehicles become superfluous.  I happen to  think that
the roadways themselves are what really need a safety focus--non
standard freeway exits, poorly marked pavement, missing and/or
inadequate signage, underposted speed limits, poorly timed traffic
signals, inadequate bridge maintenance and repair...these are the real
hazards, IMO.

--Geoff
Dori A Schmetterling - 27 Aug 2004 15:20 GMT
I was talking about the focus of the US authorities. Most European &
Japanese also don't have projections, but we did have a fashionable outbreak
of bull/'roo bars in the UK which has now been stopped (you can just see the
herds of wild bulls charging around the prairies of the London suburbs..).
As far as I know they have been banned in the UK.

I agree that there are other areas where road safety can be improved, but
one of these is the interaction between moving vehicles and pedestrians.  I
am sure ther are quite a few such collisions in the US, despite the wide
pavements/sidewalks .

However, it is rather 'detached' to maintain that driving is "an acceptable
risk"; the implication is that there need be no further work in improving
safety.

DAS
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> > Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:08:41 +0100
> > From: Dori A Schmetterling <ng@nospam.co.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> --Geoff
Daniel J. Stern - 27 Aug 2004 20:06 GMT
> But the way you're making it sound our vehicles are just full of sharp,
> immobile projections! They're not.

They are, relative to the vehicles legal for sale elsewhere in the world.

It's part of the reason why the US is *thirteenth* on list of countries
ranked in ascending rate of road/vehicular-related deaths and injuries,
despite all the selfgratulatory cheering that goes on about how the US is
best, safest, most right, etc.

> I happen to disagree that we need to go out of our way to redesign the
> front ends of US vehicles to be 'friendlier' to pedestrians in
> collisions.

Thirteenth, Geoff.

> If safety is the overriding concern, there's a lot of more obvious
> things we could do.

Thirteenth, Geoff.

> But driving is an acceptable risk that a hundred million or so
> people undertake every day in the US.  At some point, all the "safety"
> concerns about the vehicles become superfluous.

Thirteenth, Geoff.
Minnie Bannister - 27 Aug 2004 23:53 GMT
<Saracasm>

Yeah, but those statistics were probably cooked up by a bunch of pinko,
UN-supporting, atheistic one-worlders who would vote for Kerry or Nader
if they were US citizens.

True God-fearing patriotic Americans *know* that the USA is #1 in
everything.

And then we wonder why we have to spend so much money and human
resources trying to keep out all the people who believe our propaganda.

</Sarcasm>

MB

On 08/27/04 03:06 pm Daniel J. Stern put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:

>>But the way you're making it sound our vehicles are just full of sharp,
>>immobile projections! They're not.

> They are, relative to the vehicles legal for sale elsewhere in the world.
>
> It's part of the reason why the US is *thirteenth* on list of countries
> ranked in ascending rate of road/vehicular-related deaths and injuries,
> despite all the selfgratulatory cheering that goes on about how the US is
> best, safest, most right, etc.
Geoff - 02 Sep 2004 14:13 GMT
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:06:32 -0400
> From: Daniel J. Stern <dastern@engin.umich.edu>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> despite all the selfgratulatory cheering that goes on about how the US is
> best, safest, most right, etc.

So there are 12 that are safer, eh?  Which?  (Feel free to post a URL
and save yourself the typing.)

Another question: what are the other 'part(s) of the reason why the US
is thirteenth'?

--Geoff
Daniel J. Stern - 03 Sep 2004 22:26 GMT
> > It's part of the reason why the US is *thirteenth* on list of >
> countries ranked in ascending rate of road/vehicular-related deaths >
> and injuries, despite all the selfgratulatory cheering that goes on >
> about how the US is best, safest, most right, etc.

> So there are 12 that are safer, eh?

Nope, my info was out of date. We've slid to 15th and the downward trend
continues.

http://www.scienceservingsociety.com/A/IntlCompar.htm
http://www.scienceservingsociety.com/ajphLetter.htm
http://www.scienceservingsociety.com/data.htm
http://www.scienceservingsociety.com/

http://www.ltrc.lsu.edu/TRB_82/TRB2003-000742.pdf

Dr. Leonard Evans, after many years as GM's top safety researcher, is one
of North America's foremost traffic-safety researchers (
http://www.tsc.berkeley.edu/html/exp_evans.html ). He mentioned the US'
slide from far-and-away-safest country in the 1970s to 13th (15th today)
in his keynote speech to the National Academy of Sciences Transportation
Research Board in 2003. As I type this post, I am on the phone with Dr.
Evans.

> Another question: what are the other 'part(s) of the reason why the US
> is thirteenth'?

Well, that's an interesting question with a complex answer. Seatbelt use
rates are still shitty in the US, around 67 to 70 percent compared to
nearly 100 percent in virtually every other industrialized country. Also,
the US (putatively) controls fuel consumption via CAFE rather than via
fuel taxation; CAFE has created a mix of small/light cars and large/heavy
SUVs on US roads; there is much less average disparity among passenger
vehicle sizes and weights in other countries. Also, improperly underposted
speed limits on limited-access highways, together with punitive and random
enforcement, has bred widespread disrespect for all traffic laws.

And, it's interesting to note that only *one* country higher up the list
than the US -- namely Canada -- permits vehicles with US-spec safety
compliance. All the others require ECE safety compliance (everything from
headlights and taillamps to mirrors, glass, seatbelts, airbags, then there
are suspension and brake tests that don't even exist in the US, etc.).
Driver training, road engineering and maintenance and law enforcement
tactics probably factor into it as well.

Dr. Evans' book is very expensive -- $100 -- but my copy is en route.

DS
Ted Mittelstaedt - 04 Sep 2004 13:57 GMT
> Also,
> the US (putatively) controls fuel consumption via CAFE rather than via
> fuel taxation; CAFE has created a mix of small/light cars and large/heavy
> SUVs on US roads; there is much less average disparity among passenger
> vehicle sizes and weights in other countries.

This I disagree with.  CAFE hasn't created that mix, it is people's choices
of what they are buying.

The vast majority of people who purchase SUV's do not need them.  Rather
they think they need them.  And they think they need them because they
have been brainwashed into thinking this due to the constant barrage of
advertising they get from the automakers who make more money on the sale
of large SUV's.  And the fact the automakers can brainwash them at all
is because most of the people in the US blew off science in school in favor
of underwater basketweaving courses that were easy A's, and blew off
math in school and blew off critical thinking, debate, and anything else
that smacked of requiring a little mental exercise.

There is a reason that Dr. Evan's book sells at $100 per copy.  It is
because
since the book is aimed at the educated people, it is aimed at a very small
market and the publisher cannot afford to sell it otherwise.  Most of the
people in the US are not very educated.  And this is by their own choice.
This is why books like Harry Potter that actually require you to not know
anything about science and math and how the world works - so that you can
actually believe in kids flying around on broomsticks - sell so
spectacularly
well in the US, and as a result are much, much cheaper.  It is why
technobabble
shows like Star Dreck with impossible plots are popular.  It is why the
current
presidential campaign is being run on 5 second slogans and sound bites
rather
than real discussion of the issues.  The majority of voters wouldn't know
real
discussion from demagogery if they saw it, and wouldn't have the attention
span
to follow a 2 hour discussion of an issue even if they did.

You can argue all you want that fuel taxes or some other governmental
twiddling
is a better way than CAFE.  But this is just ignoring the real issue.
Everyone in the
US that is of auto buying age has been exposed to so much information on the
oil problems and such that they should know damn well to make better choices
on
what vehicles they buy.  But the fact is that the US auto purchasers are
deliberately
choosing to purchase like a moron purchases.  No amount of twiddling is
going to
make people start wanting to be educated when they have clearly chosen not
to
be.

When the average new car buyer believes he's saving money with a lease, you
simply cannot make any argument about higher fuel costs amortized over time
being higher.  He is going to believe what he wants to believe, damn the
facts.

Ted
Minnie Bannister - 04 Sep 2004 22:28 GMT
There are some cross-cultural differences too: the school district where
we lived until near the end of last year was approx. 50% Jewish and
Asian, the remainder predominantly Anglo (Roman Catholic/Protestant).
The School Superintendent said the Anglo parents often complained that
their kids were getting too much homework, while the Jewish and Asian
parents kept complaining that their kids weren't getting enough
homework, weren't learning enough.

This was one of the best-performing school districts on Long Island, and
we (Gentile Anglos) didn't think that our son was getting much homework.
Last year, in a highly rated private school in the Midwest, he had even
less homework. This year he is at a charter school, so we'll see how
that works out.

MB

On 09/04/04 08:57 am Ted Mittelstaedt put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:

> The vast majority of people who purchase SUV's do not need them.  Rather
> they think they need them.  And they think they need them because they
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> math in school and blew off critical thinking, debate, and anything else
> that smacked of requiring a little mental exercise.
Arif Khokar - 06 Sep 2004 19:15 GMT
> There are some cross-cultural differences too:

<snip>

Your post is a good example of "tangential thinking."
Minnie Bannister - 07 Sep 2004 14:33 GMT
Well, thank you. Googling the term "tangential thinking," I see that
many educational programs have as one of their goals teaching people to
think tangentially, I guess I was taught to do it without ever having
heard the term (and maybe my tachers hadn't either).

MB

On 09/06/04 02:15 pm Arif Khokar put fingers to keyboard and launched
the following message into cyberspace:

>> There are some cross-cultural differences too:
>
> <snip>

> Your post is a good example of "tangential thinking."
Minnie Bannister - 07 Sep 2004 16:26 GMT
Well, thank you. Googling the term "tangential thinking," I see that
many educational programs have as one of their goals teaching people to
think tangentially, I guess I was taught to do it without ever having
heard the term (and maybe my teachers hadn't either).

MB

On 09/06/04 02:15 pm Arif Khokar put fingers to keyboard and launched
the following message into cyberspace:

>> There are some cross-cultural differences too:
>
> <snip>

> Your post is a good example of "tangential thinking."
Ted Mittelstaedt - 07 Sep 2004 11:01 GMT
> There are some cross-cultural differences too: the school district where
> we lived until near the end of last year was approx. 50% Jewish and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> parents kept complaining that their kids weren't getting enough
> homework, weren't learning enough.

There is no coorelation between the amount of homework and how much
a kid learns.  If the school lets the teachers get away with blow-off
activities
during the classroom instructional time, they are going to have to assign a
lot
of homework to make up the difference.

The Jewish and Asian parents that were complaining were making two
complaints.
The first was not enough homework.  The second was not learning enough.
These
are two different issues.

But the telling thing is that the Anglo parents wern't complaining that
their kids
were learning too much, but only that they were getting too much homework.

All this is really beside the point though, because what matters to the
society is
the content and retention of what is learned, not the quantity.  Society
needs
high retention of subjects like critial thinking and analysis, and the
ability to
retrieve, comprehend and manipulate information.  It does not need a lot of
retention of rote memory - ie: we don't need a lot of people walking around
who have memorized the entire Encyclopedia Britannica and can answer all the
questions on Jeopardy, yet are unable to understand that a lease on a car
costs more money over the long haul than just buying it.

The sad problem with the schools is that since everyone's brain works
differently
everyone has to learn to think critically differently.  In short, educating
people on
how to analyse and use the information in the world requires instruction
that is
customized to the student.  By contrast, rote memory such as memorizing the
US Constitution verbatim, is easily done with an instructional program that
is
not customized, and is standardized.

Customized tutoring is much more expensive than standardized instruction in
a
classroom with a one-to-many instruction to student ratio.  Since the U.S.
society
has a majority of uneducated people in it, the majority in society aren't
willing
to pay for the increased cost of a proper education program, and will only
pay for the rote-learning programs.  Nor are the majority of people equipped
to
properly instruct their own children, being uneducated and non-critical
thinkers
themselves, they can hardly be expected to raise children who are critical
thinkers.

Ideally, parents would use the rote-memory learning school programs for
subjects like mathematics, music, language and a few other subjects that
are basically all rote memory.  Subjects like science, history, government,
the ones that require critical thinking and analysis, these would be handled
by the private tutors.  But, we are far from this ideal, and instead what
happens
is students, left to their own devices, choose subjects like history and
government which are the worst suited for rote-learning, because they are
regarded as easy A's, and ignore subjects like math and language, which are
the best suited for rote-learning, because they are regarded as hard.  It's
no wonder we have an education problem in the country.

Ted
Metal Dave - 07 Sep 2004 20:32 GMT
> Ideally, parents would use the rote-memory learning school programs for
> subjects like mathematics, music, language and a few other subjects that
> are basically all rote memory.

An otherwise interesting post marred by the fact that the poster seems to
have never studied music but feels qualified to comment on how it can
be taught... Having had excellent high school music teachers and gone on
to get an undergraduate degree in the subject, I feel qualified to say
that rote memorization won't help you compose a piece of music.

Apologies if you meant "music history" as opposed to performance or
composition, in which case this is fairly accurate at anything less
than a university level.

   Dave
Joe Pfeiffer - 08 Sep 2004 02:11 GMT
> > Ideally, parents would use the rote-memory learning school programs for
> > subjects like mathematics, music, language and a few other subjects that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> have never studied music but feels qualified to comment on how it can
> be taught... Having had excellent high school music teachers and gone on

Nor math at any level beyond multiplication tables.
Signature

Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D.       Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science       FAX   -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University          http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer

Dori A Schmetterling - 14 Sep 2004 17:58 GMT
Yep, Ted, I think there was a lot of well-meaning generalisations...

For what it's worth I once spent a couple of months in a state girls' school
in a corner of central London that well reflected the huge social mix in the
vicinity.

There were largely 4 ethnic groups: white British, black British with
parents mostly from the Caribbean, Indian (Subcontinent, East Africa) and
Chinese.  Though I could not say if the majority of Chinese and 'Indian'
girls were born in Britain (possibly, given that they were teenagers, though
it was in the late 70s, only about 10 years after tens of thousands of
ethnic Indians were thrown out of East Africa) there were clear trends in
attitude to work and willingness to learn.

To me there was little difference between the white and black British; they
were far less motivated than the Asian and Chinese-origin girls.  I have no
idea about the religious affiliation of these girls but I am prepared to
stick my neck out and say that, as a group, the Chinese and the Indians were
quite different from each other.  Nevertheless they were similar in
discipline and willingness to learn.

DAS
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> > > Ideally, parents would use the rote-memory learning school programs for
> > > subjects like mathematics, music, language and a few other subjects that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Nor math at any level beyond multiplication tables.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 11 Sep 2004 11:25 GMT
> > Ideally, parents would use the rote-memory learning school programs for
> > subjects like mathematics, music, language and a few other subjects that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to get an undergraduate degree in the subject, I feel qualified to say
> that rote memorization won't help you compose a piece of music.

Actually, music the way it's generally taught to children is much less in
the theory and composition and much more in the rote memory - ie:
practicing a piece.  As the kids get older and if they want to continue in
it,
of course you need more theory and composition in the education of it.
But unfortunately there's this idea (which seems to have primariarly taken
root in the minds of the anglo/white children) nowadays that you can learn
all about music without being able to play decently.  Kind of like the
foreign
language classes where 3rd year Spanish students still couldn't carry on a
conversation with anyone in Mexico City.  This idea seems much less
prevalent
among the children of Asian descent which is why they are out there winning
all the music competitions.

You probably will scream this but until you can play at least 1 instrument
your just pretending to learn about music.  Getting the kid good at
playing an instrument should be the primary goal of grammer school music,
with theory secondary and composition third.  Most people don't have true
musical talent anyway and many of the ones that do are too lazy to do what
is necessary to make it worth having.  There's only a small fraction who
have
both the talent and the drive to beat it into something admirable.  But then
again, only a small fraction of people will ever become doctors, so I don't
see anything really different here.  We don't run everyone through medical
school, why run everyone through music composition classes?

> Apologies if you meant "music history" as opposed to performance or
> composition, in which case this is fairly accurate at anything less
> than a university level.

How can you think that performance isn't rote memory learning?  Sure, a
good performer isn't a rote player.  But before a good performer can
play listenable variations on a piece they better know it like the back of
their
hand first.  To many people are lazy and figure they don't have to know a
piece well and can just play something that sounds kind of like it and pass
it
off as performance variations.  It's like fingernails on a blackboard to
anyone
who knows better.

Ted
Joe - 09 Sep 2004 04:34 GMT
> > Also,
> > the US (putatively) controls fuel consumption via CAFE rather than via
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This I disagree with.  CAFE hasn't created that mix, it is people's choices
> of what they are buying.

You're wrong. Daniel's point is that CAFE legislated the relative size of
those choices apart from the normal forces of the market. The number of big,
heavy cars was artificially restricted, and many people bought trucks
instead. Trucks weren't intially impacted by CAFE. Maybe trucks would have
become more popular anyway, without the CAFE effects on cars, we'll never
know. But there's certainly no reason to argue that now. The relative size
of cars and trucks now is still a safety concern, regardless of which is
more popular. Now that gas is going up, cars may be poised to make a
comeback in the states. There ought to be fewer women driving Suburbans, but
it's still going to hurt to hit one.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 11 Sep 2004 11:51 GMT
> > > Also,
> > > the US (putatively) controls fuel consumption via CAFE rather than via
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> heavy cars was artificially restricted, and many people bought trucks
> instead.

Baloney.  This is an argument made up by people that want to extend CAFE
to trucks.  Which by the way I think is a good thing anyway, at least for
any
truck that is smaller than 300 hp.  Nobody really knows how many people
bought trucks vs smaller cars because of CAFE.  You assume that people will
always go larger if the size they want isn't available.  Incorrect
assumption.

Sure, there's a lot of trucks out there.  You don't know if people would
have
bought trucks anyhow even if big heavy cars were available.  You might
consider
that the station wagon market collapsed when people started equating station
wagons with the Brady Bunch.  A truck and a station wagon have similar
utility in being able to haul around a lot of crap that is inconvenient to
haul
around in a big heavy car.  For all we know the reason the truck market
is perking along right now is that it's become the modern day replacement
for
a station wagon.  Half the trucks on the road I see have tops on the beds
anyway, making them look even more like station wagons.

> Trucks weren't intially impacted by CAFE. Maybe trucks would have
> become more popular anyway, without the CAFE effects on cars, we'll never
> know. But there's certainly no reason to argue that now.

Hmm you start out telling me I'm wrong then lame out by saying there's
no reason to argue.  Yah, right.

> The relative size
> of cars and trucks now is still a safety concern, regardless of which is
> more popular.

Yes it is, but as the anti-anti SUV people keep telling me, they didn't buy
their SUV's because their dicks were too soft, they bought their SUV's
because they -needed- them.  (although generally they fail to come up
with many reasons they actually need them that hold water, but I digress)

Your going to have big vehicles because people need them for hauling
around God-knows-what.

Your going to have small vehicles because people need them so they
don't spend all their money on keeping gas in a vehicle.

Nobody has come up with a solution that will either get rid of all the
small vehicles, or get rid of all the SUV's, unless you ban one or the
other.

I've traveled before.  In Europe people tend to live in a lot smaller area
and so mass transit becomes feasible, and a lot of people use it and don't
even own a vehicle.  I would hazard a guess that because of this, they
aren't
runing out to Home Depot every weekend for a load of plywood to fix up their
apartment.  I would also hazard a guess that in countries with a declining
population
that there's not a lot of families with a lot of kids that need hauling
around.  In
short, there's plenty of sociological reasons that a large car disparity
doesen't
exist in other countries that are stronger than CAFE factors.

> Now that gas is going up, cars may be poised to make a
> comeback in the states.

I don't holdout much hope for a long term (ie: 3-5 year) serious increase in
fuel
prices.  There is just way too much proven oil reserves in the world for
that.  The shortages we are having now are just as a result of a few people
who happen to live on top of some of the largest reserves, having the
mistaken
belief that they actually own them.  But, our president George Bush has
shown
them who really owns all that oil, so I don't forsee any long term problems
getting it unless some whiny Democrat gets into office who actually thinks
that
people who live somewhere should be left alone!

Ted
Dori A Schmetterling - 14 Sep 2004 17:46 GMT
From what I have read over the years (not a huge amount, admittedly) I have
obtained the impression that car suppliers in the US meet average fuel
consumption at least to some extent by manipulating the range of cars/engine
sizes sold, rather than by working on fuel economy in general.

DAS
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> > Also,
> > the US (putatively) controls fuel consumption via CAFE rather than via
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This I disagree with.  CAFE hasn't created that mix, it is people's choices
> of what they are buying.

[............]
John David Galt - 05 Oct 2004 23:18 GMT
>> Also,
>> the US (putatively) controls fuel consumption via CAFE rather than via
>> fuel taxation; CAFE has created a mix of small/light cars and large/heavy
>> SUVs on US roads; there is much less average disparity among passenger
>> vehicle sizes and weights in other countries.

> This I disagree with.  CAFE hasn't created that mix, it is people's choices
> of what they are buying.

CAFE made station wagons extremely scarce and expensive.  To blame the results
of that deliberate action on "people's choices of what they are buying" is
just plain dimwitted.
Daniel J. Stern - 05 Oct 2004 23:42 GMT
> >> the US (putatively) controls fuel consumption via CAFE rather than
> >> via fuel taxation; CAFE has created a mix of small/light cars and
> >> large/heavy SUVs on US roads; there is much less average disparity
> >> among passenger vehicle sizes and weights in other countries.

> > This I disagree with.  CAFE hasn't created that mix, it is people's
> > choices of what they are buying.

> CAFE made station wagons extremely scarce and expensive.  To blame the
> results of that deliberate action on "people's choices of what they are
> buying" is just plain dimwitted.

You're right that he's wrong, but it's not so much that he's dimwitted as
that he's simply ignorant.
Dori A Schmetterling - 14 Sep 2004 17:42 GMT
Look at the UK.  Gloat, gloat, gloat...

DAS
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> > > It's part of the reason why the US is *thirteenth* on list of >
> > countries ranked in ascending rate of road/vehicular-related deaths >
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> DS
Daniel J. Stern - 27 Aug 2004 22:23 GMT
> If you had stopped to think for 60 seconds before hitting the keys you
> might have thought of all the protruding badges and mascots, never mind
> bull bars etc. An obvious example is the upright Mercedes star, which
> must be able to bend at the base on contact.  If it didn't, it would rip
> somebody open.

There are other advantages to the ECE regulations on vehicular
projections. ECE-spec sideview mirrors fold over on hinges when struck in
a narrow street or scraped on the garage doorframe, rather than breaking
off and costing money as many North American-spec ones do.

Apparently "We don' need no steeeeeeenkeen' regulaytchions" Geoff doesn't
like saving money.
Dori A Schmetterling - 28 Aug 2004 16:29 GMT
Indeed. Something I know quite well.  Scrapes but no broken mirrors.

DAS
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[...........]

> There are other advantages to the ECE regulations on vehicular
> projections. ECE-spec sideview mirrors fold over on hinges when struck in
> a narrow street or scraped on the garage doorframe,
.......................
Geoff - 02 Sep 2004 14:36 GMT
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:23:06 -0400
> From: Daniel J. Stern <dastern@127.0.0.1>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Apparently "We don' need no steeeeeeenkeen' regulaytchions" Geoff doesn't
> like saving money.

Oh, I like saving money just as much as anyone else.  The real question
is what do I have to spend at the onset to save the money later?  At
what cost, safety?

The 96 Intrepid I had was equipped with folding mirrors.  One snowy day
I misjudged and whacked the passenger side mirror on the fence post.
Sure, the mirror folded as advertised.  The housing was also destroyed.
At the time, the cost to replace the mirror was a *multiple* of what the
cost would have been to replace the mirror on the same model not originally
equipped with the folding mirrors. (Now the prices on car-part.com are
considerably more comparable, but, then again, these cars are starting
to get pretty old.)

I'm sure the price of the folding mirrors was baked into the
original  price of the car.  All safety 'features' come at a cost.  Some
are more worthwhile than others -- there's considerable debate on the
effectiveness of airbags, ABS, etc.  There's little or no debate on the
effectiveness of brake lamps, turn signals and seat belts.

That said, I'm quite sure that had the fence post been a person instead,
the folding mirror would've been a lot 'friendlier' than a fixed model.

My question to you is: how much will a new car cost when every
conceivable safety feature is mandatory?  What will the market put
up with as a minimum price for a new car?  At what point will *everyone* be
priced out of the market, save for a few?  At what point will this harm
the industry further?

***

If there's a remedy for something that is truly effective, I tend to go
along with it.  For example, if there's a surgery that can be performed
that will extend a person's life for a significant period of time, it's
probably worth it, regardless of what it may cost.  If heart transplants
were 100% effective at extending a heart patient's life for a period
measured in years or decades, it wouldn't matter much to me if they cost
$1 million apiece, it would be worthwhile.

But I think we've long surpassed the law of diminishing returns WRT
automotive safety.  What we're starting to demand -- cars that can
absorb 70MPH collisions in the rear with no fires, for example -- is
very hard to achieve, and tends to make the vehicles *way* more
expensive.  We're demanding that designs account for things that happen
in a ridiculously small percentage of vehicle collisions as if the
mandated changes come at no cost.  Where does it stop?

--Geoff
Dori A Schmetterling - 26 Aug 2004 22:14 GMT
PS. From your various posts I conclude that life in a country ruled by you
would be brutish, nasty and short,

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[..........]>
> Yeah, it happens all the time.  Somebody driving a vehicle with big
> exhaust pipes takes out two or three pedestrians at the knees as they drive
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> --Geoff
Geoff - 27 Aug 2004 14:21 GMT
> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:14:40 +0100
> From: Dori A Schmetterling <ng@nospam.co.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> PS. From your various posts I conclude that life in a country ruled by you
> would be brutish, nasty and short,

I've got no particular desire to 'rule' anything, much less a country.
Perhaps this idea is rooted in your British identity as a subject to
the Queen.  Some Americans grow up with the desire to be politicians,
surely.  Most of us just want to live well.  I number myself among the
latter.

What I do desire, more than anything else, is freedom from my
government.  I'm coming to realize that people from other nations do not hold the idea of freedom
with the same reverence as do the majority of Americans.  Compared to
even our Canadian brothers and sisters, who are as geographically and
demographically as close to being Americans as you can get without a
Social Security Number, we represent a very distinct difference in
philosophy.  In my frequent discussions with these fine people, the
difference is palpable.

The fact of the matter, Dori, is that our country has been guided by the
principles of freedom, and despite the expansion of government in the
latter two-thirds of the previous century, probably still doesn't match
the level of intrusiveness and nanny-ism in the typical European
country.  Because we lack socialized medicine here, the government
doesn't find it necessary to legislate every form of human activity.

This is not 'brutish, nasty and short,' rather it is liberating,
invigorating and, increasingly long lived.

We value the rule of law, the freedom of expression and the right to
self determination.  It's all part of the pursuit of happiness.

And it is a grand, grand lifestyle.

--Geoff
Dori A Schmetterling - 27 Aug 2004 15:35 GMT
I am delighted that you are happy living where you are.

However, that does not mean it is all that you think it is in the eyes of
others.  I have to remind you that it was England (not the UK) that
pioneered freedom and the legal rights of the individual, long before the US
came into being.  Furthermore uniqueness and the sanctity of the individual
were spelled out in the bible, which predates the USA by over 3000 years.

Of course the US has been and is a bastion of political freedom in many
ways, but I think that has little to do with legislation or lack of it on
social issues such as road safety.  I wouldn't be surprised if the US
weren't  the first country to regulate tobacco products like medecine...

Lastly, I am sure many Americans enjoy a "grand lifestyle," whatever that
means, but so do, I suggest, many if not most Canadians and a surprisng
number of west Europeans etc, but I also think that for a large number of
Americans that is but a dream.

DAS
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> > Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:14:40 +0100
> > From: Dori A Schmetterling <ng@nospam.co.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> --Geoff
rickety - 26 Aug 2004 22:24 GMT
>> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:49:20 +0100
>> From: Dori A Schmetterling <ng@nospam.co.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> --Geoff

I think you'll find the protruding exhaust pipes refers to those that
project beyond the sides of the vehicle. In many cases these regulations
were meant to minimise the opportunities for snagging pedestrians'
clothing. In a circumstance that otherwise would be insignificant or result
in minor brusing, protruding "anythings" can cause a pedestrian to be
dragged
along the street in circumstances that the driver did not intend.

Even door mirrors can contribute to this problem unless they break-away,
deflect or are contiguous with the vehicle body so that they cannot easily
snag clothes.

Being bumped up over the hood of a Rolls-Royce, to be impaled by the
Spirit of Ecstasy may be high class, but can add to the personal damage.

Having a regulation that asks for a mascot that deflects to avoid such
things, doesn't seem irrational to me.

Similarly, bull bars on the front of a vehicle that has a deformable front
end that is designed to minimise pedestrian injury where possible,
circumvents
the intent of trying to produce a safer vehicle.

Realise that when driving through the wide open spaces of Barking Creek you
are in an area of high population density (and I don't mean like Arkansas).

Bull bars and 'roo bars may be a good idea for the outback and traversing
the range.

Signature

Rickety

Geoff - 27 Aug 2004 14:30 GMT
> I think you'll find the protruding exhaust pipes refers to those that
> project beyond the sides of the vehicle. In many cases these regulations
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Having a regulation that asks for a mascot that deflects to avoid such
> things, doesn't seem irrational to me.

In the U.S., sidewalks where pedestrians *should* be
walking are at least several feet from the road.  There are some cases
where the sidewalk is literally atop the roadway, but I don't believe
this to be the majority.

I live alongside a roadway of some consequence.  The strip of grass between the sidewalk
and the road is 30 feet across; the speed limit is 40 MPH.

Maybe we in the U.S. just don't get as close to the cars as is the case
in Europe?  I understand that the streets there are far more narrow than
here.

--Geoff
Minnie Bannister - 26 Aug 2004 20:27 GMT
Also, I would say (for safety reasons if not for legal ones): "Beware of
vehicles with wheels/tires projecting beyond the fenders."

MB

On 08/26/04 01:49 pm Dori A Schmetterling put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:

> A note I found interesting on the UK govt website about importing vehicles
> from North America:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> focused on pedestrian safety (or the car manufacturers' lobby is
> resisting...).
Daniel J. Stern - 26 Aug 2004 04:18 GMT
> I had just left the M1 to go into Northampton on Saturday at lunchtime,
> when my wife let out a gasp of amazement, and pointed across the road in
> shock - There was a Chrysler 300M going in the opposite direction.

Probably a 300C.

> The thing that surprised me the most was the fact that it was UK
> registered, albeit 04, AND it was a RHD model, so probably not an
> import.

Not too surprising. They've been making left-hooker ECE-spec 300Cs for
continental Europe for a bunch of months now; I saw a truckload of them on
the highway here in Ontario, Canada, where they are built. Right-hookers
are usually a little behind the left-hookers, but they are beginning to
ramp them up.

> To the best of my knowledge, it won't be released here until late
> September at the earliest, according to my local Chrysler dealership.

...Australia...Japan...

> They couldn't even give me a proposed retail price for the beast.

At USD $6/litre for nonleaded, I'm surprised anyone in the UK would
consider one.
Art - 26 Aug 2004 04:32 GMT
RHD 300C would be one heck of a nice car for a rural mailman.

> > I had just left the M1 to go into Northampton on Saturday at lunchtime,
> > when my wife let out a gasp of amazement, and pointed across the road in
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> At USD $6/litre for nonleaded, I'm surprised anyone in the UK would
> consider one.
Dave - 26 Aug 2004 06:33 GMT
> > I had just left the M1 to go into Northampton on Saturday at lunchtime,
> > when my wife let out a gasp of amazement, and pointed across the road in
> > shock - There was a Chrysler 300M going in the opposite direction.
>
> Probably a 300C.

It was indeed a 300C. My mistake.

> > The thing that surprised me the most was the fact that it was UK
> > registered, albeit 04, AND it was a RHD model, so probably not an
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> At USD $6/litre for nonleaded, I'm surprised anyone in the UK would
> consider one.

I wouldn't consider one - I WANT one! The running costs would be pretty much
irrelevant to me, as I already run a 3.3 Grand Voyager, averaging 18-20 mpg
around town with the occasional run out on the open road. Since it's
manufacture in '97, I have covered over 128,000 miles in it, with no major
problems so far, just one serpentine belt shed after I stupidly went WAY too
fast through a deep pool of water. I can't see the running costs of a 300C
being all that much worse - Possibly even better (apart from insurance -
that's going to be a killer!).

Oh, and the price tag on the car itself. I can't see it being any less than
?35,000 UKP when it finally emerges, after all the obscene taxes our
government screw us out of.

Wonder how much equity I have in my house................

Dave
Minnie Bannister - 26 Aug 2004 11:24 GMT
Well, you can pay (in the UK) what you claim to be obscene taxes for a
decent (not perfect, but decent) health-care system (and other programs
for improved social wellbeing) or you can pay (in the USA) obscene
medical-insurance premiums to cover hospitals billing (in one case of
which I read) $70+ for a "mucus retrieval kit" that turned out to be a
box of Kleenex.

MB

On 08/26/04 01:33 am Dave put fingers to keyboard and launched the
following message into cyberspace:

> I wouldn't consider one - I WANT one! The running costs would be pretty much
> irrelevant to me, as I already run a 3.3 Grand Voyager, averaging 18-20 mpg
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Wonder how much equity I have in my house................
Bill Putney - 26 Aug 2004 11:43 GMT
> Well, you can pay (in the UK) what you claim to be obscene taxes for a
> decent (not perfect, but decent) health-care system (and other programs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> MB

LOL!  John Kerry will fix the "low" taxes and "high insurance premium"
problem - yeah - you betcha!  Help is on the way!  (cough cough)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
Art - 26 Aug 2004 16:21 GMT
Well maybe Kerry won't start any wars which can't be finished like the one
in Iraq.  And, don't tell me it is part of the war on terrorism.  It ain't,
no matter how many times Bush says it is.

> > Well, you can pay (in the UK) what you claim to be obscene taxes for a
> > decent (not perfect, but decent) health-care system (and other programs
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Dave - 26 Aug 2004 14:02 GMT
> Well, you can pay (in the UK) what you claim to be obscene taxes for a
> decent (not perfect, but decent) health-care system (and other programs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> MB

A decent health-care sytem if you happen to have the right postcode maybe.

And while the government are taking 61p for EVERY LITRE of petrol I buy, so
it bleedin' should be!
Amazingly enough the government thinks that it is fair to charge a whopping
340% tax on petrol. That means that for every ?50 you spend, ?37 is pure
tax. At 83p a litre (average UK price), the Goverment take 61p in tax. The
retailer makes 2p, the supplier 1p and the oil producer 19p.

And for that, I get to wait in a 12 month queue to see a doctor. In a
hospital built and/or run under the private finance initiative.

Gee thanks.
Minnie Bannister - 26 Aug 2004 15:32 GMT
It certainly may vary from place to place within the UK. The system
worked wonderfully for my late parents in SE England.

MB

On 08/26/04 09:02 am Dave put fingers to keyboard and launched the
following message into cyberspace:

>>Well, you can pay (in the UK) what you claim to be obscene taxes for a
>>decent (not perfect, but decent) health-care system (and other programs
>>for improved social wellbeing) or you can pay (in the USA) obscene
>>medical-insurance premiums to cover hospitals billing (in one case of
>>which I read) $70+ for a "mucus retrieval kit" that turned out to be a
>>box of Kleenex.

> A decent health-care sytem if you happen to have the right postcode maybe.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Gee thanks.
 
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