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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / September 2004

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Chrysler Reliability?..

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Jon Patrick - 29 Aug 2004 14:40 GMT
Hey all,
Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
in my family in 2 generations (primarily we were a GM family).
A fun, cheap car that was a PITA until we got rid of it.  Electric
problems (radio would cut out; cruise stopped working), blew a head
gasket, and by the end the transmission was slipping when it rained...
There are more, but that gives you an idea.
Unfortunately, almost every person I know who's had a
Chrysler/dodge/jeep product has a similar story. I had a cherokee, and
it had fuel pump/tranny problems. By Bro.-in-law's durango?
Computer,ABS,Distributor,Electric problems. The Trucks - the same
story.

I LOVE what Chrysler is doing now - the Pacifica especially. The 300
is gorgeous in person....But I'm just afraid of the quality.

What do ya'll think? Has it improved substantially?  After our
Neon/Cherokee experience, we've had a Mazda (one of my fav. cars
ever), our Honda, and I bought a used (cheap) Focus...So I'm not
totally turned off from American:)!
Jon
mic canic - 29 Aug 2004 15:11 GMT
hmm thats funny alll the gm's   i had did what you said and all my
problems went away when i went mopar my early mopar rides rusted out way
before the motors or trans quit and my charger actually went faster with
time since the sheetmetal rusted off and it lost weight cutting a better
et here in michigan
the the new 300 cars are really tight and have few common failures
but there is a problem with people putting stuff on the front seat and
shutting off
the airbag and setting a airbag lite fault code

> Hey all,
> Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> totally turned off from American:)!
> Jon
Count Floyd - 29 Aug 2004 15:15 GMT
> Hey all,
> Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> totally turned off from American:)!
> Jon
My wife and I bought our second PT Cruiser, very highly rated by Consumer
Guide/Reports, this one is the convertible.  We traded in our 2003 sedan for
the 2005.  I personally have had: 1964 and 1970 Dodge Darts, bulletproof
cars.  My Mother had a 1967 Plymouth Fury, great car, 318 V-8, I had a 1973
Fury wagon, great car, 1948 Plymouth, one of the best cars I ever owned, and
I currently have a 1949 Chrysler Windsor sedan, all original and runs great!
My wife's son has a 2001 Neon with no problems.  It just comes down to what
you like, how you take care of the car, etc.  Any car, even the vaunted
Honda and Nissans can be PITA.
Bruce Yelen - 29 Aug 2004 16:20 GMT
Hmm - had a 1975 Dodge B-200 (extended) van that went over 150,000 miles
before I replaced the tranny, and 172,000 before replacing the engine.  Had
a 1990 Dodge Grand Caravan, replaced the water pump (under warrantee) at
2000 miles (there had been a bad run of the bolts Chrysler used to attach
the pumps), and the van continued for 179,000 miles before a got rid of it
(hit some black ice and bent the frame slamming into a curb sideways at 25
mph).

While there will be an occasional lemon (like any brand), I've found
Chrysler to be pretty reliable on the whole.

> > Hey all,
> > Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.745 / Virus Database: 497 - Release Date: 8/27/2004
SRG - 29 Aug 2004 17:34 GMT
The 95's had a lot of those problems, probably because it was their first
year.  Later years did do better, we had a 97 that was fairly trouble
free--except the head gasket--which Chrysler fixed.  We also had a 97
Stratus, also had the headgasket problem, also was fixed by Chrysler and
also was a very dependable car.  As far as I've heard, the auto
transmissions on the Neons very rarely had problems.  We now own 2 PT
Cruiser and have very few problems with them.

What you should also be asking, in the GM and other newsgroups,  is how are
these manufactures doing?  Have GM and others had the headgasket,
electrical, computer and tranny problems?  I remember in the late 80's I had
a Plymouth Reliant K car, almost problem free, while a friends Toyota Pickup
had blown headgasket etc.  BTW, the K car was put to rest after 13 years by
a t-bone accident.

SRG

> Hey all,
> Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> totally turned off from American:)!
> Jon
D. E. Smith - 29 Aug 2004 17:42 GMT
My '85 K car went 213,000 miles before giving up the ghost!

> The 95's had a lot of those problems, probably because it was their first
> year.  Later years did do better, we had a 97 that was fairly trouble
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> > totally turned off from American:)!
> > Jon
D. E. Smith - 29 Aug 2004 17:44 GMT
Oh yeah, and that was the Mitsushitty 2.6L engine!
> My '85 K car went 213,000 miles before giving up the ghost!
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> > > totally turned off from American:)!
> > > Jon
Matt Whiting - 29 Aug 2004 19:08 GMT
> Hey all,
> Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> totally turned off from American:)!
> Jon

I think it varies just as with any manufacturer.  I had pretty good luck
with my 89 Acclaim.  The biggest problem it had in 143K miles was a
cracked torque convertor flex plate (not sure that is the exact part
name, but it is close).

My 96 Grand Voyager has been fairly troublesome, but so far all have
been pretty much nuisance things, nothing major in the drive train.
Although I am now having a serious problem with it stalling at idle when
it is put into gear.  The dealer thought it was a dirty TBI, but
cleaning it didn't help.  They then thought last week that it was the
coil pack as it missfired when they sprayed a mist of water on it.  But
replacing that didn't help as I found out yesterday.  This is the first
problem I've had that has affected its driveability seriously.

I had an 84 Honda Accord that was the most troublesome car I've ever
owned.  My current pickup, a 94 K1500, got off to a bad start with a
valve train failure at 5,200 miles (the ball came off the end of a
pushrod and it welded itself to the rocker arm), but has been pretty
reliable since then.  Just the normal 4WD stuff like replacing a
u-joint, but nothing major in the drive train or otherwise.  This truck
hauls wood and plows snow all winter so it has held up well for 85,000
miles of pretty heavy use.

Personally, I've not found Chryslers to be significantly worse than the
GM cars I've owned.  I've not owned many Fords so I can't compare them.
   My Jeep Comanche was one of the most reliable vehicles I ever owned,
probably in the same league as the Acclaim.  However, I bought it when
Jeep was still owned by AMC.

Matt
RPhillips47 - 30 Aug 2004 06:28 GMT
>My 96 Grand Voyager has been fairly troublesome, but so far all have
>been pretty much nuisance things, nothing major in the drive train.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>replacing that didn't help as I found out yesterday.  This is the first
>problem I've had that has affected its driveability seriously.

Go back to them and have them put a co-pilot in the van so you can push a
button to record the information whenever this happens. Our '96 T&C LXi was
doing this repeatedly, (after supposedly being fixed twice by the local dealer
who no longer gets our service) so we went to a different. They put the
co-pilot in for us to use for a week as no fault codes were stored (local
dealer wouldn't let us do so). When we took it back results indicated the MAP
sensor and EGR valve were erratic. Tests determined those items would have to
be replaced before further diagnostics could be performed. They replaced them,
service manager drove it home overnight, and all worked well. They told me at
that point the system was working as designed. That was 5/17/02 with 131,121
miles. It is now 8/29/04, the van has 180,496 miles on it and hasn't acted up
since.  

RP
Matt Whiting - 30 Aug 2004 21:43 GMT
>>My 96 Grand Voyager has been fairly troublesome, but so far all have
>>been pretty much nuisance things, nothing major in the drive train.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> RP

I'll ask about this.  They have said both times I've had it back
recently that a code was set indicating "multiple cyliner missfires."
It must be a code that doesn't set the MIL, and doesn't get reported
with the key sequence trigger.  I did the on-off-on-off-on sequence when
I got home this evening and got the normal 12 55 code sequence flashed
on the light.

Matt
Bill - 31 Aug 2004 00:04 GMT
Matt,
The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
valve sticks open then the engine will stall when coming to a stop.

Bill

> >>My 96 Grand Voyager has been fairly troublesome, but so far all have
> >>been pretty much nuisance things, nothing major in the drive train.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Matt
Matt Whiting - 31 Aug 2004 00:23 GMT
> Matt,
> The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
> valve sticks open then the engine will stall when coming to a stop.

Why would shifting into neutral and coasting to a stop prevent the
stalling if the EGR is the culprit?  Seems like an open EGR would kill
the engine whether it was in gear or not.

Matt
Lindy - 31 Aug 2004 01:38 GMT
>> Matt,
>> The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Matt

Check for torque converter not going out of lockup.......

Bad EGR will kill engine in any gear at idle.
Matt Whiting - 01 Sep 2004 01:09 GMT
>>>Matt,
>>>The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Bad EGR will kill engine in any gear at idle.

The service manager mentioned the TCC last time I had the van in, but
they can't find anything definitive.  Took the van in again this morning
 and, of course, it purred like a kitten the whole time I was there.
It also ran fine the rest of the day and then acted up tonight on my way
home.

I asked about the "copilot" and they said they just run with the DRB
attached, but they aren't willing to let me take one for a fews days of
driving.  I asked.

Matt
RPhillips47 - 01 Sep 2004 05:04 GMT
>I asked about the "copilot" and they said they just run with the DRB
>attached, but they aren't willing to let me take one for a fews days of
>driving.  I asked.

That's the problem - they won't let you drive with it for a few days and
whenever you take it in you have no problem. That is how our former dealer
(Valencia Dodge - gave up on Valencia Chrysler long ago) was. There was one
afternoon when it was really acting up severely for my wife - stalled four
times from our house to the dealer - so i told the service manager to test
drive it THEN. His reply - "We are all in a meeting so we can't do it". That's
when I took it to Star Chrysler in Glendale. Too bad you aren't out here. They
could/would fix it for you!

RP
Bill - 31 Aug 2004 01:39 GMT
No load on the engine.
How does the engine idle when it is first started up and does it stall when
first put in gear or only after you have driven it?
The IAC motor is another possibility.

Bill

> > Matt,
> > The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Matt
Daniel J. Stern - 31 Aug 2004 05:19 GMT
> > > The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
> > > valve sticks open then the engine will stall when coming to a stop.

> > Why would shifting into neutral and coasting to a stop prevent the
> > stalling if the EGR is the culprit?  Seems like an open EGR would kill

> No load on the engine.

Er, no. It doesn't work that way. A stuck-open or leaking EGR valve will
prevent the engine idling whether the vehicle's in gear or in neutral.

> The IAC motor is another possibility.

Proper diagnosis is what is needed -- not random guesses.

DS
Bill - 01 Sep 2004 00:08 GMT
depends on how far it's stuck open dummy.

> > > > The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
> > > > valve sticks open then the engine will stall when coming to a stop.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> DS
Bill - 01 Sep 2004 00:30 GMT
> > > > The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
> > > > valve sticks open then the engine will stall when coming to a stop.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Er, no. It doesn't work that way. A stuck-open or leaking EGR valve will
> prevent the engine idling whether the vehicle's in gear or in neutral.

Not if it sticks open partially, which many have done, and only causes a
slightly rough idle, high long term adaptive memory numbers and occasional
stalling conditions because it only sticks occasionally.
And what is this Er sh.t Dan? Is this your way of trying to assert some kind
of superiority here?

> > The IAC motor is another possibility.

I thought the whole purpose of the newsgroup was possibilities to be delved
into by someone with a scan tool :)

> Proper diagnosis is what is needed -- not random guesses.

(TIC) Then what the hell is everybody doing here in this newsgroup, nobody
here can hook up a scan tool to the cars in question on the newsgroup. So
there isn't a whole lot of  "Diagnosis" going on here, just a lot of
uneducated guesswork from most and a few that have good knowledge but no way
to see the vehicles in question. That would make this EDUCATED guesswork.
But it's still guesswork and that is ALL that can happen here! :)

Dan, you are a work of art, I just haven't figured out what genre yet. :)
nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca - 01 Sep 2004 02:05 GMT
>> > > > The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If
>the
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
>Dan, you are a work of art, I just haven't figured out what genre yet. :)

Yup - a real smart-a.s, self righteous work of art.
Bill - 01 Sep 2004 02:45 GMT
Yes, BUT I say in Dan's defense that he has given you all a lot of good
advice over the years. None of us are always right :)

Bill

> >> > > > The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If
> >the
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Yup - a real smart-a.s, self righteous work of art.
Matt Whiting - 01 Sep 2004 01:11 GMT
>>>>The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
>>>>valve sticks open then the engine will stall when coming to a stop.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> DS

Unfortunately, with the problem being intermittent, proper diagnosis has
thus far been elusive.

Matt
Matt Whiting - 01 Sep 2004 01:10 GMT
> No load on the engine.
> How does the engine idle when it is first started up and does it stall when
> first put in gear or only after you have driven it?
> The IAC motor is another possibility.

Seems OK at first and worse when the engine is warm and worst when the
OAT is above 85.

Unfortunately, it isn't a failure mode that has thus far set a code.
And it is intermitten which makes troubleshooting a challenge.

Matt
Bill - 01 Sep 2004 02:42 GMT
EGR isn't allowed to operate until the engine has been running for a few
minutes (each year's specs are different). The EGR valve is feed with engine
vacuum. When the solenoid is turned off (not energized) no vacuum gets thru
to the EGR valve. Once the solenoid is energized vacuum is still blocked by
the fact that there is no exhaust backpressure. When there is no exhaust
backpressure to the EGR valve, the vacuum let thru by the solenoid is vented
to the atmosphere. As backpressure increases due to throttle opening (simple
explanation), more vacuum is routed to the EGR valve to open the valve. The
most EGR flow occurs at part to mid throttle. With no throttle, there is no
backpressure = no EGR flow. At high throttle openings there is very little
vacuum supply so very little EGR flow.
The backpressure vale and the solenoid are the black plastic piece at the
EGR valve. The backpressure valve is spring loaded (by an internal spring)
to the vacuum bleed position. Typically the spring (inside) rusts out and
can stick in any position between full bleed and full EGR. So when it goes
bad, it can show itself as just a rough idle, intermittent rough idle, stall
at every stop or intermittent stall at a stop.
Sooooo, someone (that knows what they are looking at) needs to verify
correct operation of the EGR valve or you can spend the money and just have
someone (or yourself) replace it (especially if the vehicle has high
mileage). They should be replaced at between 100K and 125K miles anyway. (no
that isn't in the maintenance schedule and that's a whole nother argument
for another place and time).

Bill

> > No load on the engine.
> > How does the engine idle when it is first started up and does it stall when
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Matt
RPhillips47 - 01 Sep 2004 05:07 GMT
>Seems OK at first and worse when the engine is warm and worst when the
>OAT is above 85.
>
>Unfortunately, it isn't a failure mode that has thus far set a code.
>And it is intermitten which makes troubleshooting a challenge.

Ours acted up when warm - at idle or while driving - and when hot outside. The
hotter it was, the worse it acted. When cool, no problem. Your problem sounds
more and more like what we went through.

RP
nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca - 31 Aug 2004 03:41 GMT
>> Matt,
>> The EGR valve is very likely causing your intermittent stalling. If the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Matt
Engine vacuum operates the EGR. So, coasting in, with no load, engine
has higher vacuum.
Also, in gear the engine is under load. Sticking EGR reduces the power
output of the engine - it MAY run with no load, yet still stall under
load (in gear). My '88 had just that stalling problem - so did my '95
pontiac. Replacing the EGR solved the problem on both. (actually, the
EGR valve on one, and a vacuum control gizmo of some sort on the
other)
RPhillips47 - 31 Aug 2004 04:57 GMT
>I did the on-off-on-off-on sequence when
>I got home this evening and got the normal 12 55 code sequence flashed
>on the light.

Ours did the 12 55 continually when giving all the problems. Former dealer
couldn't/wouldn't do anything so the other dealer took over. I should also
point out that the new dealer found a part that the former dealer rplaced with
a new part that they broke while installing. Rather than replace the part they
just let it go.

RP
James C. Reeves - 29 Aug 2004 22:55 GMT
Been buying Chrysler products since 1987.

Had the head gasket problem also at about 60K on a 1997 Neon Sport (DHOC
engine)....which is a known common problem...replaced  under 70K extended
warranty.

Had AC problems on a 1987 Grand Caravan V6 (1st year for the Grand and the
V6)...repaired twice under extended warranty...then gave up again after it was
out of warranty at 82K (didn't fix it after that).  Started burning a little
oil by the time we sold it...but the people we sold it to drove it for several
more years and said it was one of their more reliable vehicles they'd ever
owned.

Other problems...not many?

1989 Dakota 4x4...Timing chain went at 130K
   (which is unusual)  Went through pittman arms
   for some reason too.  No other problems.
1997 Grand Caravan 3.3...Sticking lifters at 30K...replaced
  under warranty
  (I attributed this one to my 4 mile winter commutes and not
  changing the oil often enough to prevent sludge)
2003 Stratus...Cabin blower fan at 2K...replaced under warranty
  loose/leaking tranny coolant couplings...dealer tightened.
2004 Sebring...None so far

Other Family Members

Mother in Law...1989 Dodge Aries...still driving it
  don't know the service details, but she isn't complaining
  that the car is a problem
Son 1996 Dakota V8.  Water pump at 85K.  Bought it used
  so don't know what happened to it before 50K
Daughter 2000 Neon.  Clutch cable problem...nothing else.
  She has about 80K on it at the moment

Neighbors

1996 Caravan - 190K miles..abuses it as his weekend
  hauler for home improvement projects.  Often comes
  down the street sitting awfully low from weight.  He
  recently bought a SAAB 9.5 wagon and was going to
  trade the Caravan... but changed his mind and decided
  it was too good of a vehicle to get rid of just yet.

So, all-in-all, reliability seems to be quite good if you ask me!  I've not
seen any of the electrical or transmission problems you have.  I think 1995 was
the 1st year for the neon...I wouldn't buy a 1st or 2nd year model run from ANY
manufacturer...they statistically have the greatest number of problems.  I'd
stay away from the new 300 for a couple of years...let them work the kinks out
The Pacifica?  I'd wait one more year before buying that one too.

| Hey all,
| Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
| totally turned off from American:)!
| Jon
Bill Putney - 30 Aug 2004 02:04 GMT
> ...I wouldn't buy a 1st or 2nd year model run from ANY
> manufacturer...they statistically have the greatest number of problems.  I'd
> stay away from the new 300 for a couple of years...let them work the kinks out
> The Pacifica?  I'd wait one more year before buying that one too.

The paradox is that about the time they have the kinks worked out is
about the time they start de-contenting!  8^)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
Art - 30 Aug 2004 15:32 GMT
I was looking at the Pacifica and saw some of the last 300M's on the lot.
The assembly quality was pretty bad.  Especially trim around the front and
back windshields.  I don't think they has lost any features though in the
last year and gained hinged side mirrors in 2000 compared to my 99.

> > ...I wouldn't buy a 1st or 2nd year model run from ANY
> > manufacturer...they statistically have the greatest number of problems.  I'd
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Nomen Nescio - 30 Aug 2004 01:20 GMT
Go ahead and buy one if you are an electronical engineer and master
mechanic.

All those wires.  They would scare an electrician to death.  99% of
mechanics don't know electricity so who's going to fix those connections
when they corrode or the wires break?  And if a transistor burns out, its
all over.  

Again we are brought back to the leaky head gasket problems,  a perineal
everlastingly reoccuring fault.  By Gosh!, hasn't anyone ever worked on a
moped?  Their heads don't even need a head gasket!!  Its a metal to metal
fit.  A car engine can be made the same way.  No gasket = no head gasket
failure.  Its simple Automechanics II.

So how do you build a watercooled engine without a gasket?  Well you could,
but its easier if you do use a gasket so long as a little leakage doesn't
matter to the engine.  Just don't run water or oil through the gasket!  The
gasket needs holes, but only cylinder holes!!  The water and oil circulate
just as before but don't through the gasket.  Instead, the circulation in
the block and head is independent with a cast manifold connecting the two.
A stainless distribution tube in the head takes care of potential hot
spots.  Looking at the block, it would be smooth except for cylinder holes.
Looking at the head, it would be smooth except for combustion chamber
cavities with the valves in the usual places.  Its a very elegant solution
and I challenge the factory to prove otherwise.  Sure the engine would cost
$10 or $20 more but so what?  If the gasket leaks a little, it would be
combustion gas only and it would harmlessly bleed to the atmosphere instead
of your WATER JACKET or OIL GALLERY which it does now and kills your car
engine.  At the very worst, the engine would have to be derated a little
because its cooling efficiency might be impaired by a small amount, to be
determined by actual testing during development.

Surely this configuration has been thought up before, hasn't it?
Threeducks - 30 Aug 2004 03:22 GMT
> Hey all,
> Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> totally turned off from American:)!
> Jon

We had a '98 Neon and it was a good little car.  Never had any trouble
with it.  We now have two Chrysler minivans ('00 and '02) and both have
been relatively trouble free.  We did have an issue of a leaking intake
manifold gasket and a faulty EGR valve, but both were fixed under
warranty years ago.
Gene DiGennaro - 30 Aug 2004 20:22 GMT
> Hey all,
> Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> totally turned off from American:)!
> Jon

From 1989 to 1996 I drove a '88 Dodge Daytona Shelby Z. Fast car,
passed everything but a repair shop. Broke down a lot. Was leary of
another Mopar product but in 2001 I bought a '98 Cirrus. It has been
the best car I've ever owned and extremely reliable.

Gene DiGennaro
Baltimore, Md.
Art - 30 Aug 2004 23:14 GMT
Own a 99 300M.  42k miles.  Purchased 11/98.  Bought an extended warranty on
it but so far haven't used it once.  Power windows were a problem first year
though and covered under regular warranty.  Goodyear tires had to be
replaced by Goodyear.  When new ones started vibrating I switched to
Michelin.  So did Chyrsler in later years.

> Hey all,
> Back in 1995, my wife and I bought a Neon - the first Chrysler product
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> totally turned off from American:)!
> Jon
 
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