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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / December 200490 spirit won't run
I have a problem with my 1990 Dodge Spirit (2.5L non-turbo) that fires, but won't run. To keep it running, I have to pump the gas fairly fast. When I press the gas pedal, it accellerates for about a second, then it will stall if I don't pump it again. I originally thought it was the AIS, so I replaced that. That didn't work. I remembered the trick for the self-diagnostic and did that. Originally, the self-diagnostic came up with codes 12, 15 and 24. One was "Battery was recently disconnected", one was "TPS reads over 4.96V", and the other was "Speed/Distance sensor wasn't receiving a signal". I went back to work on it today, disconnected the battery, started the car (pumping the gas) and kept it running for a little while and re-checked the diagnostic codes. Nothing. I replaced the TPS sensor anyways and nothing. It's getting spark and it's getting gas. The only thing I can think of is it's something electrical. I parked it wednesday morning, and it ran fine. Wednesday night, I went to go home, and it wouldn't start. Any ideas? TIA Wes > I have a problem with my 1990 Dodge Spirit (2.5L non-turbo) that fires, but > won't run. To keep it running, I have to pump the gas fairly fast. When I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I went to go home, and it wouldn't start. > Any ideas? Yup, Open circuit on the ground leg of the TPS. I'll check for this tomorrow. Thanks for the tip. I just found some more things to check tomorrow if this doesn't work. Thanks, Wes If you are still getting the fault for the TPS sensor, or the vehicle speed sensor, that could be the problem, check all grounds for the TPS circuit, if the Vehicle speed sensor is faulty and telling the PCM that it is going 114 miles an hr or more it will cause a no start or shut down, also, if possible, check fuel pressure when the problem is occuring. Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech The TPS fault code isn't coming up since I disconnected the battery. I even kept it running until it warmed up, but the only fault code that comes up is code 12 ("Battery was recently disconnected") and code 55 ("End of Fault Codes"). Wes Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the ECM from the speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only thing with a noticeable resistance was the ground from the fuel injector cap, which read between 9 and 10 ohms. I was able to keep the car idling using starting fluid. While it was idling, the hot wire going to the fuel injector cap was reading a steady 14V. From this info, I have a few questions. 1. I assume I should replace the ground wire from the fuel injector cap - 9 ohms is way too high. 2. Is the 14V for the injector cap within reason? 3. Is there anything else it could be besides the fuel pressure or the injector itself? I'm checking to see if I can get my hands on a fuel pressure guage tonight. Thanks, Wes > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the ECM from the > speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only thing with a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 1. I assume I should replace the ground wire from the fuel injector cap - 9 > ohms is way too high. There is no ground from the fuel injector. One terminal of the injector is fed constant12 volts (14ish with engine running), the other terminal is pulled to ground thru the ECM. 9 ohms is meaningless, a voltage drop would be a more meaningful measurement. Tough to do without an oscilloscope though... > 2. Is the 14V for the injector cap within reason? 14 volts is nominal when the engine is running and the alternator is functioning correctly. > 3. Is there anything else it could be besides the fuel pressure or the > injector itself? I'm checking to see if I can get my hands on a fuel > pressure > guage tonight. You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was reading a steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual said). I looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over last night and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's cranking and when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue to inject when it idles or while you hold the gas down. I don't have an oscilloscope, but my multimeter showed a constant 14V at the fuel injector, so it should be injecting fuel. I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician said it sounded like the fuel pressure regulator. I guess I'll replace that tonight and see if that fixes it. Any other suggestions on what it could be? Thanks, Wes > > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the ECM from the > > speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only thing with a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? Is there a way to test the fuel pressure regulator? When I tested the fuel pressure, I pinched off the return line, and the pressure (on the intake) did increase. Wes > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was reading a > steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual said). I [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? ok first of all you only have 3 seconds of spark and fuel, if the engine does not start within that time frame it shuts both off untill restarted again,second, if you push on the gas pedal while cranking the engine, this could cut the fuel off if you pump it., it sounds as if you have fuel pressure and the regulator is doing its job properly.If you see fuel spraying as you crank it and it does not start you have some other problem, if you have spark and fuel, you need to check the timing belt for proper settings, If you e mail me back i wont get your message for awhile, i just read the ones you sent me a few days ago, post here and i will try to help you out, o yes, if you keep trying to start the engine, the injectors spray fuel in the cylinders, this could also cause a flooded condition and make the engine a no start > Is there a way to test the fuel pressure regulator? When I tested the fuel > pressure, I pinched off the return line, and the pressure (on the intake) [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? The car starts, but immediately dies if I don't keep pumping the gas. I noticed something else last night. The engine seems to bog down for a fraction of a second when the gas is first injected. If I remember correctly, it didn't accelerate until the gas was no longer being injected. Then it dies if I don't pump the gas again. No dark smoke like it's too rich. Thanks Wes > ok first of all you only have 3 seconds of spark and fuel, if the engine > does not start within that time frame it shuts both off untill restarted [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? Assuming that you are not losing spark, the fuel pressure is maintaining 14 psi........ then you may have a faulty fuel injector, was there an injector circuit fault found at one time, i think it would be a code 26 but not sure? > The car starts, but immediately dies if I don't keep pumping the gas. I > noticed something else last night. The engine seems to bog down for a [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? The spark became less frequent as the car died, but it kept sparking until it was dead. I assumed the spark was slowing down because the car was dying (since it wasn't getting gas). There was no fault code for the fuel injector - just the TPS and the Speed Distance sensor. I ended up replacing the TPS because of the fault code, but then I went back and tested the original and it tested fine. I also tested the speed\distance sensor and it tested OK (8 spots of 8 ohms and infinity between). After I disconnected and reconnected the battery, I have yet to come up with a fault code besides 12 and 55. If the fuel injector is bad, how could it inject while cranking and when you first press the gas pedal? Wes > Assuming that you are not losing spark, the fuel pressure is maintaining 14 > psi........ then you may have a faulty fuel injector, was there an injector [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > > > > > > > > > "aarcuda69062" <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:nonelson-8E3EF3.00334601122004@newsclstr01.news.prodigy.com... > > > > > > > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the > ECM [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? If the fuel injector is bad, how could it inject while cranking and when you first press the gas pedal? just because you see a spray does not mean it is enough to keep the engine running, maybe the pintel is not opening enough to let fuel out, i cant answer that, if you had some gum cutter or similar fluid, would you be able to keep the engine running that way? and do you have a fuel pressure gauge connected while it is running to verify 14 psi while it is dying? > The spark became less frequent as the car died, but it kept sparking until > it was dead. I assumed the spark was slowing down because the car was dying [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? What is gum cutter? I am able to keep it running with starting fluid. If I remember correctly, it was staying at 14 psi while it was dying. After it died, it dropped to 10-12 psi. Is there a way to test the injector without taking it into a shop? If the pintel isn't opening up, does that mean it's just gummed up, or could it need replaced? Wes > If the fuel injector is bad, how could it inject while cranking > and when you first press the gas pedal? [quoted text clipped - 168 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? gum cutter starting fluid the same thing, even if you tested out the injector with an ohm meter and i have no idea what the specs are,doesnt mean it is anygood, you would just have to do what we do, if all else tests out, connections, fuel pressure, all sensor values, timing set to specs, you would have to take the next step and replace the injector, cause you cant see what is happening with it internally, > What is gum cutter? I am able to keep it running with starting fluid. If I > remember correctly, it was staying at 14 psi while it was dying. After it [quoted text clipped - 192 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? How does the car act when the Hall Effect sensor in the distributor goes out? My dad is a mechanic that works at a starter/battery place. He works with a guy that's worked on quite a few dodge/chrysler vehicles, and he swears it sounds like it's the Hall Effect sensor. Wes > gum cutter starting fluid the same thing, even if you tested out the > injector with an ohm meter and i have no idea what the specs are,doesnt mean [quoted text clipped - 218 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? > How does the car act when the Hall Effect sensor in the distributor goes > out? It refuses to run. The Hall Effect sensor is a real possibility; that's why I asked you to clear the codes and then check 'em. If he can keep the engine running with starting fluid how can it be a pickup plate problem, stop spraying, engine shuts off, has nothing to do with spark!!! The basics you gotta have spark, compression and fuel, he has no fuel!!!! > > How does the car act when the Hall Effect sensor in the distributor goes > > out? > > It refuses to run. The Hall Effect sensor is a real possibility; that's > why I asked you to clear the codes and then check 'em. Good point, and you may be right. But I'll counter that its not 100% conclusive. Starting fluid lights off a lot eaiser than gasoline, so a spark that is too weak, to early, or too late can fire starting fluid but not gasoline. In fact, a healthy engine might even "diesel" on the stuff with no spark at all. Also, where does the timing signal for the fuel injection come from on that car? The Hall Effect sensor, maybe? Hmmm.... ;-) > If he can keep the engine running with starting fluid how can it be a pickup > plate problem, stop spraying, engine shuts off, has nothing to do with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>It refuses to run. The Hall Effect sensor is a real possibility; that's >>why I asked you to clear the codes and then check 'em. > If he can keep the engine running with starting fluid how can it be a > pickup plate problem Yet another stupid question from Max. My, my, what a surprise. For fifty points, can you tell us the source of the pulsed signal the ECM looks at to determine whether or not to supply power to the injector? (Hint: It's the pickup assembly.) you make no sense again, if the pickup plate was bad you wouldnt have spark or fuel, so if we give it fuel manually then the pickup plate is functioning because the engine is running, and if the engine is running isnt the pickup plate doing its job, it doesnt take that much to figure out Dan C, im sorry, Daniel S.I get you 2 mixed up... now if we take away the fuel,the engine will cut off. 2+2 still equal 4 doesnt it? or are we gonna argue that point to? > > If he can keep the engine running with starting fluid how can it be a > > pickup plate problem [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > (Hint: It's the pickup assembly.) You have eliminated that theory by keeping the engine running with starting fluid, thats why i said to use gum cutter or something similar to make sure it has spark, if it were a pickup plate, the engine would not keep running as you sprayed the starting fluid in it. you are losing fuel somewhere, and if all test were done and still have no fuel sprayed from injector, replace it > How does the car act when the Hall Effect sensor in the distributor goes > out? My dad is a mechanic that works at a starter/battery place. He works [quoted text clipped - 173 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "aarcuda69062" <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:nonelson-8E3EF3.00334601122004@newsclstr01.news.prodigy.com... > > > > > > > > > > > In article > <20041130234229.23255.00001311@mb-m03.aol.com>, [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? > if it were a pickup plate, the engine would not keep running as you > sprayed the starting fluid in it. False. It is perfectly possible to have the Chrysler 4-cylinder pickup plate continue generating a spark but fail to generate a sufficient or proper signal for the ECM to run the fuel injector. That may or may not be what's happening here, but it is certainly possible. You are behaving as though he is working on a 1964 Dodge Dart. > you are losing fuel somewhere, and if all test were done and still have > no fuel sprayed from injector, replace it The fuel injector itself might be faulty, but it's probably not; they seldom fail on this setup. The "Replace parts until it runs" method is the sign of an ignorant, lazy, halfassed mechanic. You're not ignorant, lazy and/or halfassed, are you Max? Naw, 'course you're not. But then, how come you're making stupid suggestions like "Replace the fuel injector because you're losing fuel", instead of helping the OP to understand that the only way he's going to get his car working again is through systematic and proper diagnosis? I suppose one possibility is that you are simply an a.shole. DS The fuel injector itself might be faulty, but it's probably not;>>>>>???????? probably??? isnt that like second guessing??>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But then, how come > you're making stupid suggestions like "Replace the fuel injector because > you're losing fuel", instead of helping the OP to understand that the only > way he's going to get his car working again is through systematic and > proper diagnosis?>>> IF you would have read all the posts you would have come across the part where i said if all tests good replace the injector>>>> let me find what i said so your lame a.s can read it again, hmmm here it is>>>>>>>, if all else tests out, connections, fuel pressure, all sensor values, timing set to specs, you would have to take the next step and replace the injector, cause you cant see what is happening with it internally, does that ring a bell ?? you realy should try to grow up > > if it were a pickup plate, the engine would not keep running as you > > sprayed the starting fluid in it. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > DS Wes one more thing, since you arent able to see the map sensor values disconnect the map sensor electrical connector only, leave the vacuum hooked up, see if the engine will run now, if the map sensor is shorted out, it may not set a code and will also cause a no start. this would be part of the test to check before replaceing the injector but since you can see the values with out a scanner it is going to be difficult, > How does the car act when the Hall Effect sensor in the distributor goes > out? My dad is a mechanic that works at a starter/battery place. He works [quoted text clipped - 173 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "aarcuda69062" <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:nonelson-8E3EF3.00334601122004@newsclstr01.news.prodigy.com... > > > > > > > > > > > In article > <20041130234229.23255.00001311@mb-m03.aol.com>, [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? can't tell ya how many asd relays i have replaced on those cars > Wes one more thing, since you arent able to see the map sensor values > disconnect the map sensor electrical connector only, leave the vacuum hooked [quoted text clipped - 278 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? ASD relays shut down spark and fuel, if it were the relay, it would still not run when you kept it running with starting fluid because the asd would have shut down spark, you should no that Mic, it is either a shorted Map sensor or faulty injector > can't tell ya how many asd relays i have replaced on those cars > [quoted text clipped - 280 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet? > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was > reading a steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual > said). I looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over > last night and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's > cranking and when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue > to inject when it idles or while you hold the gas down. Well, yeah, that would be a definite problem...how did you determine this? If it was idling, it was running. If it was running, the injector was injecting fuel. > I don't have an oscilloscope, but my multimeter showed a constant 14V at > the fuel injector, so it should be injecting fuel. A digital multimeter wouldn't be fast enough to keep up with the voltage pulses to the injector, so we can't really draw too much of a conclusion from this. > I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician said it sounded like > the fuel pressure regulator. No, if you were reading ~14 pounds' pressure at the fuel rail near the injector, it's not the fuel pressure regulator. The regulator is not turned on and off; it works or it doesn't. If it sticks open, there'll be very low (or no) fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If it sticks closed, there'll be very high fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If it works, there'll be 14.5psi or so when cranking OR running. I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't being given the right signals. Another hint: Dealer techs absolutely hate it when do-it-yerselfers call up and ask for diagnostic help over the phone. Many of them are not above sending such callers on wild goose chases, and I'm not entirely sure I can blame them, for such calls amount to unfair demands that they work for $0.00/hr. DS > > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was > > reading a steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If it was idling, it was running. If it was running, the injector was > injecting fuel. OK, it wasn't injecting while it's supposed to be idling. It stops injecting when you stop cranking. It fires, then decelerates until it dies. Likewise, it injects when I first press on the gas pedal (the engine actually bogs down for a second while it's injecting), then it accelereates for a second, then it decelerates until it dies. > > I don't have an oscilloscope, but my multimeter showed a constant 14V at > > the fuel injector, so it should be injecting fuel. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't being > given the right signals. I've checked the TPS, replaced the AIS, checked the Speed/Distance sensor. What other electrical sensors/relays, etc... do I need to check? The ASD relay shuts off the ignition, doesn't it? So it shouldn't be that. When depressurizing the fuel system, the chiltons says to ground one terminal of the fuel injector, and touch the other terminal to the positive battery terminal. I assume that's just pumping out any gas that's in there. Can I bypass the computer for the fuel injector and do the same thing and make sure it sprays every time the circuit is completed? That should tell me if the injector's OK, shouldn't it? Thanks for the info, Wes > > I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't > > being given the right signals. > I've checked the TPS, replaced the AIS, checked the Speed/Distance > sensor. What other electrical sensors/relays, etc... do I need to check? > The ASD relay shuts off the ignition, doesn't it? So it shouldn't be > that. The ASD relay controls the ignition, yes, but also the fuel pump and also the injection. It is the "master shutdown switch". > When depressurizing the fuel system, the chiltons Ooohboy. Chilton books will get you nowhere in a big hurry. You need a factory book. They're not hard or expensive to get. > says to ground one terminal of the fuel injector, and touch the other > terminal to the positive battery terminal. Good way to fry a fuel injector. Has the throttle body itself or the fuel injector been swapped? Although physically interchangeable, different-year versions of this same system run at different pressures. Starting in '91 or '92, the system pressure was increased to 39psi, and the later injectors aren't compatible with the early lower-pressure system. Try this: Remove the battery negative cable from the battery and leave it disconnected for two minutes, then reconnect it. Get in the car and crank it, then check the codes and report what you find. I'm beginning to suspect you'll see an 11. Daniel J. Stern <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote in article <Pine.GSO.4.58.0412072031230.29720@alumni.engin.umich.edu>... > Try this: Remove the battery negative cable from the battery and > leave it disconnected for two minutes, then reconnect it. Get in the car > and crank it, then check the codes and report what you find. I'm beginning > to suspect you'll see an 11. Does removing the battery negative for 2 minuits reset the computer ? > > Try this: Remove the battery negative cable from the battery and leave > > it disconnected for two minutes, then reconnect it. Get in the car and > > crank it, then check the codes and report what you find. I'm beginning > > to suspect you'll see an 11. > Does removing the battery negative for 2 minuits reset the computer ? Naw, I just suggested it 'cause I get my jollies from making people do pointless stuff. Dan's suggestions have caused me to invest SO much additional work on my own cars that I now take my car to the dealer for even the simplest things, like refilling the washer fluid bottle, checking oil level and tire air pressure. NOT!!!! ;-) > Naw, I just suggested it 'cause I get my jollies from making people do > pointless stuff. >>>Try this: Remove the battery negative cable from the battery and leave >>>it disconnected for two minutes, then reconnect it. Get in the car and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Naw, I just suggested it 'cause I get my jollies from making people do > pointless stuff. Well, I get MY jollies from watching people refuse to take good advice, and then whine that the car is still broken :-p > > > I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't > > > being given the right signals. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Good way to fry a fuel injector. That's what I figured. > Has the throttle body itself or the fuel injector been swapped? Although > physically interchangeable, different-year versions of this same system > run at different pressures. Starting in '91 or '92, the system pressure > was increased to 39psi, and the later injectors aren't compatible with the > early lower-pressure system. I didn't replace either of them. I've had the car for about a month, and it ran fine until this. I figure it has to be something electrical, though. It was running fine when I parked it. Then, when I went to leave, it wouldn't start. > Try this: Remove the battery negative cable from the battery and > leave it disconnected for two minutes, then reconnect it. Get in the car > and crank it, then check the codes and report what you find. I'm beginning > to suspect you'll see an 11. After I replaced the TPS, I unhooked the battery to reset the codes. Since then, I haven't had any codes except 12 and 55. Wes You dont have a fault for distributor reference signal (No distributor reference signal detected during cranking) You dont have a fault for Injector peak current (caused by high resistance in the control circuit) which is also the PCM test, You dont have a fault for injector control circuit ( engine controller does not sense injector switching on and off when a control is switched) so all those tests i would assumed pass, the only thing it does not test is if the pintel is opening, you would need a lab scope for that. but as our friend Dan C states, they did not have many problems with that injector, but then again the car is 14 yrs old, once again, if you supply fuel(starter fluid) and the engine runs and all other test passed especially the TPS sensor ( cause if will shut off fuel) and the speed sensor cause it will also cause a no start if bad, then i would have to say the injector is faulty, assuming all others passed, this is the last post i will make to this, i dont get into these games with people like daniel. there was also a recall out on the 2.5/2.2 for replacement of the injector, im not sure what yr it was , give me the serial number via my e mail address and i will check for you. it may have been 1988 im not sure > > > > I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't > > > > being given the right signals. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > then, I haven't had any codes except 12 and 55. > Wes > You dont have a fault for distributor reference signal (No distributor > reference signal detected during cranking) You dont have a fault for > Injector peak current (caused by high resistance in the control circuit) > which is also the PCM test, You dont have a fault for injector control > circuit ...and he doesn't have a prayer of doing any meaningful system diagnosis by means of flash codes obtained by watching the "Check Engine" light blink. and i except your apoligie Daniel > > You dont have a fault for distributor reference signal (No distributor > > reference signal detected during cranking) You dont have a fault for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > by means of flash codes obtained by watching the "Check Engine" light > blink. >>says to ground one terminal of the fuel injector, and touch the other >>terminal to the positive battery terminal. > > Good way to fry a fuel injector. Or worse, fill a cylinder with fuel then fold a connecting rod when you start it up afterward. Ooohboy. Chilton books will get you nowhere in a big hurry. You need a factory book. They're not hard or expensive to get. > says to ground one terminal of the fuel injector, and touch the other > terminal to the positive battery terminal. Good way to fry a fuel injector,,, AND ONCE AGAIN HE RUNS HIS MOUTH< ON PAGE 15 OF THE CHRYSLER PRINTED DRIVABILTY BOOK IT STATES T O GROUND THE WIRE AND CONNECT A JUMPER WIRE TO THE OTHER END instead of helping the OP to understand that the only way he's going to get his car working again is through systematic and proper diagnosis? IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL WHAT YOU ARE DOING, the book is right, but daniel wants to rewrite it > > > I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't > > > being given the right signals. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > and crank it, then check the codes and report what you find. I'm beginning > to suspect you'll see an 11. |
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