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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / December 2004had one ... but the doors fell off
My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front steering rack 4 times now and all Chrysler can say is "sorry you're not happy". Can't keep it in alignment - evey 6 months new front tires and an alignment. I won't bother with the litany of other things that broke that never should. My repair file is getting quite large... I was miffed when the drivers side door fell off - well not quite off - the upper hange tore itself away from the unibody and obviously the door wouldn't close - which left the lights on and drained my battery. Had to get a body shop to weld a plate so the upper hinge could be re-attached. Todays interesting problem - the tailgate fell off - well again I exagerate a bit - there is a bolt that goes through the middle of the hinges on the tailgate - maybe it's for some sort of alignment or adjustment or some such thing . Anyway , the bolt on one of the hinges failed - shearing off and droping the tailgate to such an extent that the van looked like it had been in a serious accident. Good thing my wife was close to home at our local highschool. Someone found some rope so my kids could hold the tailgate closed while my wife hobbled home. I can post a picture if anyone is interested. Can anyone tell me what thread and length for this bolt? I'm going to have to careully drill out the sheared-off bolt, perhaps re-thread the hole and hope that nothing was grossly twisted in this "event". The local Chrysler says "this doesn't happen". Well, it did... Any thoughts? Thanks peter > My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought > it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front > steering rack 4 times now and all Chrysler can say is "sorry you're not > happy". Why are you getting any comment at all from Chrysler on a 10-year-old vehicle? Surely you're not taking the van to a dealer for repair?! > Can't keep it in alignment - evey 6 months new front tires and an > alignment. I won't bother with the litany of other things that broke > that never should. My repair file is getting quite large... I suspect the problem may have more to do with your repair facility choices than with the original design of the van. > I was miffed when the drivers side door fell off - well not quite off - > the upper hange tore itself away from the unibody and obviously the door > wouldn't close - which left the lights on and drained my battery. Had to > get a body shop to weld a plate so the upper hinge could be re-attached. What part of the world, specifically, do you live in? How many miles or KM do you have on this van? > Todays interesting problem - the tailgate fell off - well again I > exagerate a bit - there is a bolt that goes through the middle of the > hinges on the tailgate - maybe it's for some sort of alignment or > adjustment or some such thing . Anyway , the bolt on one of the hinges > failed Can anyone tell me what thread and length for this bolt? The parts department can. > local Chrysler says "this doesn't happen". This sounds like another of the "little" exaggerations you admit to making. Did you neglect to say how many times it was in the body shop?? Caravans dont have tire wear problems, and doors falling off > My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought > it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Thanks > peter > My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought > it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front > steering rack 4 times now and all Chrysler can say is "sorry you're not > happy". Can't keep it in alignment - evey 6 months new front tires and an > alignment. You don't say when you bought it, but I presume it was well used. Did you check for collision damage when you bought it? I've had a few of various generation vans and not one had a hint of these kinds of problems. I hope you didn't pay much for it. > My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought > it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front > steering rack 4 times now I know this isn't helpful, but it sounds like the problem is more you than the van. Good heavens. They made millions of those things, and nobody's broken a door off, and you've got two? What are the odds? As for the steering rack, it should be obvious that it isn't your van "killing" the racks repeatedly. It's not haunted. For heaven's sake, think a little bit. a little maintenance goes along way!!!!!!!!it may even keep doors from falling off > > My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought > > it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "killing" the racks repeatedly. It's not haunted. For heaven's sake, think a > little bit. I love the "holy than thou" commentary. It's really quite funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Give me a break - I tell you this is what happens and your instant assumption is that I am driving into medians and curbs on a regular basis and I'm making all this stuff up - not so - I've babied this piece of junk since I bought it. I have owned this car since it was new. I took it into every Chrysler recommended service for the best part of 8 years. Believe it - I have the receipts. Switched to a more local Chrysler dealer, as opposed to the one I bought it from, when it opened just 2 miles away. Finally got fed up with the local dealer when I took it in for an oil change and $700 later discovered they forgot to do the oil change - amazing what else they found wrong (bad front struts - have to be replaced - they're dangerous!). The mom-and-pop repair shop around the corner is more trustworthy than the Chrysler dealer(s) ever was. While under the extended warranty - glad I bought it - the front steering rack was replaced twice. I've since paid twice additionally for this to be replaced. That was the local Chrysler dealerships solution to front end alignments that didn't last 6 months. It's sad when you're on first name basis with service advisors. Which is the incompetent alignment shop - either of the two Chrysler dealerships or the three different tire shops I have taken the van to - surely one of them might have got it right. So "Caravans don't have these problems" - mine does and has done since I bought it. (Maxpower - it's a Town and Country - but that probably makes little difference in the analysis - and the answer is once for a front end accident and once for a rear end accident - see below) The serpentine belt used to fall off with amazing regularity - once had to have the van towed 180 miles to get it back to the dealer where I bought it! I couldn't manage to wait the weekend until a dealership opened near where it failed - plus the 180 each way trip it would have cost me to get from my home to where the car broke down. Once after re-installing the serpentine belt, I didn't even get then 15 miles home before it fell off again. Dealership paid to have it towed back again - but embarrassing- what? Had the idler pulley replaced - and replaced - and replaced. OK - slight exaggeration on the door falling off - but the upper drivers side door hinge actually ripped itself off the unibdoy and I could not shut the door - the door dropped about an inch - had to simultaneously lift and pull to get the door to close. I had to have a body shop weld a plate so they could re-attach it. In answer to the question - Northern California - and not near the ocean - not a hint of rust anywhere on the van. Still looks good for a 10 year old van - I actually bought it 10 years ago next week. And the adjustment bolt on the back hatch did shear off - looked at it with a trouble light last night to see exactly what was going on - yup - sheared off right at hinge level. Rear hatch drops about 9 inches or so and of course can't be shut. Looks like we've been in a major accident - but not. Thankfully, I don't think there is any other damage to the hatch and it might be redeemable. You can choose to believe my wife and I are collectively lousy drivers and mis-treat our automobiles, but I have a 25 year old BMW320I that I have put over 200K miles on without this kind of nonsense. Can't remember when I last had a front end alignment. My 19181 Volvo 240 Turbo went over 240K miles without this nonsense - finally gave it up when the cost of a new turbo was more than the car was worth to me. The Bay Area girl scouts got a buck or two for it. yes, my wife had a minor rear-end accident where she hit someone at a light - but that was well after two front steering rack replacements. Can't lay too much blame on the body shop for that, I think. An yes - someone hit the rear gate about 4 years ago - a minor tap in bumper to bumper traffic. Full size SUVs have their bumper set too high for almost anything but another full size SUV. A nice crease right across the license plate holder. Enough to cause a catastrophic failure like this 4 years later? Improbable in my mind. Joe - if there was one hint of improper driving or maintenance I might agree with you - my wife put 100K+ miles on the BMW320I that I'm now driving with over 200K miles on it - without this kind of problem - so all of a sudden she's a demolition derby driver? Sorry to disagree. The Chrysler statement about "this doesn't happen" i.e. the tailgate failure came from the service manager at a local Chrysler dealer who graciously ran a repair history on the van to make sure we'd fulfilled every recall applicable to this van - we have by the way. Turns out he's a friend of a fiend and did this as a favor. I don't talk to the idiots at the nearest Chrysler dealership after that oil change fiasco. (Maxpower - I did previously note that this van had EVERY Chrysler recommended service until I had about 150,000 miles on the van and until the local Chrysler dealer screwed me one time too many on what they actually did for those expensive service appointments - so don't lecture me about a little maintenance goes a long way. Do I need to go and check the torque on every nut and bolt on this van on a regular basis? If that's your idea or regular maintenance - that's nuts. But I do take your point to heart - the reason I bought this van was that Chrysler had made millions of them and I wanted to get something very reliable reliable as my wife is a home healthcare nurse who puts a lot of miles on an automobile - and that's why I did every Chrysler recommended service until about 2 years ago... so much for that dilligence) So, my thoughtful readers - believe what you wish (and I haven't talked about a transmission replacement - the passenger side electric window that doesn't go up and down any more, or the rear wiper that doesn't, or the radio that doesn't display the time and station any more) but I'm going to get this fixed as best I can and donate it to charity - I wouldn't want to take money from some unsuspecting dupe and actually personally sell it ( road rage anyone?) to someone who might know where I live. Northern California is a very benign environment for an automobile. But a lemon is a lemon where ever it might be. A new BMW X5 or Mercedes ML320 is starting to sound really good...well, maybe not the Mercedes - that's Chrysler's parent isn't it? Peter > My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought > it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Thanks > peter My wife had a 94 caravan that her door was falling down on the drivers side, she was backing up with the door open and hit my truck, it sprung the hindge that i never had fixed, over time the door support started cracking and the door was coming off, not chryslers problem, but my own, I had seen a bolt shear off the lift gate before, only because the owner would let the door slam open, in turn springing the hindges, now you state you were rear ended??? you may have also sprung the hindge, and over time sheared the bolt, , and the front end accident, who is to say it was assembled properly, im just saying that The caravan does not have those problems, and yes, over time metal does rust, especially 10 yr old metal that isnt treated such as rotors. keep in mind, this is a 10 yr old vehicle > My wife had a 94 caravan that her door was falling down on the drivers > side, she was backing up with the door open and hit my truck, it sprung [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that isnt treated such as rotors. keep in mind, this is a 10 yr old > vehicle 10 years old! Wow! I'm currently driving a 16 year old Porsche every day, probably soon to be replaced with my mom's 18 year old VW. Prior to that I had a 20 year old VW that served me well for upwards of 60K miles - and it had about 180K on it when I got it. I don't make excuses like "it's an old car" when something (rarely) breaks. Probably would still have the first VW today if I'd gotten more motivated to fix it up and fixed a few minor issues with it like the crappy paint and nonfunctional A/C instead of letting it sit for a year and a half :/ I do, however, sadly say things like "it's a Porsche" when I belly up to the parts counter, however, but you expect that... But my point was, if you consider a car "old" and liable to break after 10 years, that's not a ringing endorsement of your chosen vehicle. FWIW my first car that I drove (I have to qualify that, the first car I actually owned was a street rod project that I ended up selling when I didn't get it completed by the time I graduated from college and had to go find a Real Job) was a '67 Dart with over 200K miles on it... and other than some issues caused by a badly executed engine swap (not by me) I *still* didn't have to make the "old car" excuses for it - and this was in '96 or thereabouts. My girlfriend at the same time owned a '69 Valiant that was in much better shape; she drove it daily for 4 or 5 years before selling it for a new Passat with not much more than routine maintenance and a suspension rebuild that Yours Truly did for her in front of her apartment. The whole concept that a 10 year old vehicle is liable to have strange, unusual failures is one that makes me shake my head and think that perhaps you need to expect more from your vehicles. Maybe the OP *did* do some things to promote these failures, maybe he didn't, I'm not judging. But the whole concept that they are somehow acceptable is silly. nate  Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel You know, its is ashame, i will never dispute that the foriegn cars are built 100% better then the domestic vehicles, and that goes for quality also, if i took 100 Chrysler cars and 100 foriegn cars and inspected them brand new, i would problems with the domestic ones and maybe not one with the the foriegn, and it has been like that as far as i can remember > > My wife had a 94 caravan that her door was falling down on the drivers > > side, she was backing up with the door open and hit my truck, it sprung [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > nate > You know, its is ashame, i will never dispute that the foriegn cars are > built 100% better then the domestic vehicles, and that goes for quality > also, if i took 100 Chrysler cars and 100 foriegn cars and inspected them > brand new, i would problems with the domestic ones and maybe not one with > the the foriegn, and it has been like that as far as i can remember What are you taking? And can I get some of it? Delusions like this would really melt away the old stress! Matt Its been like that forever with the domestic vehicles, Now the Big Three are cutting back on paying the technicians to diagnois, vehicles, they dont pay the techs to test drive the cars, diagnois them, and even verifying the fix, alot of the Techs that have been with dealer are leaving. I have seen more parts get thrown at vehicles because of this, Give it a few more yrs and watch what happens. It will also funnel down to the independents, Chrysler has been cutting the labor time drastically in there warranty books, Chilton and Motor manual and who ever else base there time off the warranty time in the warranty books, The independents will start to see this as they come into the shop if they dont already see it > > You know, its is ashame, i will never dispute that the foriegn cars are > > built 100% better then the domestic vehicles, and that goes for quality [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Matt > Its been like that forever with the domestic vehicles, Now the Big Three are > cutting back on paying the technicians to diagnois, vehicles, they dont pay [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >>Matt What does that have to do with how the cars are built? The claim was that foreign cars are built 100% better and don't have any problems when new. There is tons of data from J.D. Power and other sources that shows how wrong that claim is. Matt opinions my friend, we are all intitled to them, that was mine only ok, relax > > Its been like that forever with the domestic vehicles, Now the Big Three are > > cutting back on paying the technicians to diagnois, vehicles, they dont pay [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Matt > opinions my friend, we are all intitled to them, that was mine only ok, > relax >>What does that have to do with how the cars are built? The claim was >>that foreign cars are built 100% better and don't have any problems when >>new. There is tons of data from J.D. Power and other sources that shows >>how wrong that claim is. >> >>Matt I'm still trying to figure out what the phrase "100% better" means. Can someone give an example with numbers ilustrating something being 100% better than something else. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') >I'm still trying to figure out what the phrase "100% better" means. Can >someone give an example with numbers ilustrating something being 100% >better than something else. Certainly. It is 100% better to have sex with Brittany Spears, than it is to have sex with Earnest Borgnine. This is shown without the numbers, as anyone with even a scintilla of intellectual honesty can see the difference without them. If you disagree, put down the gay porn, and seek the counsel of a good psychiatrist. God Bless, Dan'L ("If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around.") >>I'm still trying to figure out what the phrase "100% better" means. Can >>someone give an example with numbers ilustrating something being 100% [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > without them. If you disagree, put down the gay porn, and seek the counsel of > a good psychiatrist. Well the fact that you can't illustrate it with a quantitative example makes my point (that the phrase is technically meaningless). You didn't even put numbers to the experience with Earnest [sic and sick] or with Brittany to show the 100% calculation. Unless what you're saying is that the former would be a 5 out of 10 and the latter would be 10 out of 10, which would be a 100% improvement, and you would be admitting that there was some value in the former experience. Disqualified. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') simply saying that the foriegn vehicles has fewer problems then the domestic ones right off the truck, is that better? > >>I'm still trying to figure out what the phrase "100% better" means. Can > >>someone give an example with numbers ilustrating something being 100% [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x') > simply saying that the foriegn vehicles has fewer problems then the domestic > ones right off the truck, is that better? Yes, that is much better and is true based on the last stats I saw, however, the difference now between foreign and domestic is very small, and you can't lump all foreign makes together as US built cars are actually better at delivery time than are European imports. The Japanese are still slightly ahead, although not all Japanese brands do better than US brands. Subaru and Mitsubishi, for example, tend to lag well behind Toyota and Honda. And the Koreans will be in the lead in another 2-3 years at the rate they are improving. Matt > simply saying that the foriegn vehicles has fewer problems then the domestic > ones right off the truck, is that better? Why yes. That's 100% better! 8^) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') >> simply saying that the foriegn vehicles has fewer problems then the >> domestic >> ones right off the truck, is that better? > > Why yes. That's 100% better! 8^) That's low, Bill, very low... > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:09:24 -0500 > From: Bill Putney <bptn@kinex.net> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x') Okay, having a penny in your pocket is 100% better than being flat broke. Happy? --Geoff :-) >> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:09:24 -0500 >> From: Bill Putney <bptn@kinex.net> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Happy? Prolly not. Before Mr. Bill gets his panties in a knot, allow me to point out that the wealth improvement of 100%, (the penny inna you pocket, as my gram-ma-ma would say), makes you rather poor in most people's opinion, and the improvement of another 100% (making your wealth a bulging 2¢ total), is prolly not much improvement, in Bill's lexicon. ROFL Mr.Bill needs to understand that quantifying something like this, just MIGHT be a matter of presonal perferance. God Bless, Dan'L ("If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around.") > Mr.Bill needs to understand that quantifying something like this, > just MIGHT be a matter of presonal perferance. The simple act of stating something in terms like percent is, by definition, an implication of some mathematical relationship, and when used in that way, the implication is false. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') >> Mr.Bill needs to understand that quantifying something like this, >> just MIGHT be a matter of presonal perferance. > >The simple act of stating something in terms like percent is, by >definition, an implication of some mathematical relationship, and when >used in that way, the implication is false. See. I told you he wouldn't like it. ;-)~ Presonal Perferance, Bill. Look it up! God Bless, Dan'L ("If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around.") >>>Mr.Bill needs to understand that quantifying something like this, >>>just MIGHT be a matter of presonal perferance. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > See. I told you he wouldn't like it. ;-)~ Presonal Perferance, > Bill. Look it up! I tried to. "Preferance" is not in the dictionary. Apparently, the spelling of the word "preference" is subject to personal preference too - that's twice you spelled it like that. 8^) Mr. Bill responded: >>>>Mr.Bill needs to understand that quantifying something like this, >>>>just MIGHT be a matter of presonal perferance. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >spelling of the word "preference" is subject to personal preference too >- that's twice you spelled it like that. 8^) Show how smort you are. Is the following story about you, Mr. Bill??: A couple of redneck hunters are out in the woods when one of them falls to the ground. He doesn't seem to be breathing and his eyes are rolled back in his head. The other redneck starts to panic, then whips out his cell phone and calls 911. He frantically blurts out to the operator, "O my gawd! Help! My friend just died. He's Dead! What can I do?" The operator, trying to calm him says, "Take it easy. I can help. Just listen to me and follow my instructions. First, lets make sure he's dead." There's a short pause, and then the operator hears a loud gun shot!!! The redneck comes back on the line and says, "OK, now what?" God Bless, Dan'L ("If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around.") > A couple of redneck hunters are out in > the woods when one of them falls to the ground. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > The redneck comes back on the line and says, "OK, now what?" Easily the loudest I've laughed at an Internet joke in a very, very long time. Thanks, I needed that. --Geoff >>Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:09:24 -0500 >>From: Bill Putney <bptn@kinex.net> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Happy? No - I'm absolutely heartbroken! 8^) What if you said "Okay, having a nickel in your pocket is 100% better than being flat broke." Or "Okay, having a dollar in your pocket is 100% better than being flat broke." Or "Okay, having 10,000 in your pocket is 100% better than being flat broke." The fact that no one of those statements is any more true or any less true than any other of them and that the amount is arbitrary shows that there is no mathematical relationship that was implied by using a matehematical relationship term like percent. 8^) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') Mr. Bill wrote: >>>Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:09:24 -0500 >>>From: Bill Putney <bptn@kinex.net> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >No - I'm absolutely heartbroken! 8^) What if you said "Okay, having a >nickel in your pocket is 100% better than being flat broke." In case you can' tdo the math, Bill, . . . . that would be a 500% increase. >Or "Okay, >having a dollar in your pocket is 100% better than being flat broke." . . . . because that would be a 10,000% increase, . . . . this isn't tough for you, . . . . is it Bill?? >Or >"Okay, having 10,000 in your pocket is 100% better than being flat >broke." 10,000 WHAT, . . . . pennies?? or dollars?? . . . or pesos?? . . . . or dinaros?? . . . . or rupies?? . . . . or Lira?? . . . . . I get it, now, . . . . winning this argument is VERY important to you, for some reason, . . . . are you a math teacher, . . . . or a philosopher?? >The fact that no one of those statements is any more true or >any less true than any other of them and that the amount is arbitrary >shows that there is no mathematical relationship that was implied by >using a matehematical relationship term like percent. 8^) He gave you the percentage, (similar to what I did with the kissing scenario), but you didn't want to accept his numbers. Now, like the democrats in past elections, you want to move the goal posts, and pose more questions than you have answers. I thought he made it very clear, by giving you the numbers of a one hundred percent increase, over his baseline, but you keep trying to muddy the waters. Face it, Bill. The Blue States lost the election for a reason, (although some of your brothers and sisters, in the the numbers game, are still trying in Ohio and Washington State), and you need to understand that even THOSE numbers had something to do with presonal perferance. Try to grasp the concept, willya?? ;-)~ God Bless, Dan'L ("If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around.") > Mr. Bill wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > In case you can' tdo the math, Bill, . . . . that would be a 500% > increase. I thought flat broke was $0.00. Now - divide $0.05 (or any other finite number by $0.00 and see what you come up with. >>Or "Okay, >>having a dollar in your pocket is 100% better than being flat broke." [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > than you have answers. I thought he made it very clear, by giving you the > numbers of a one hundred percent increase, over his baseline, Uh - no - his baseline was "flat broke", which in my book is zero, nada, nyet. > but you keep > trying to muddy the waters. > > Face it, Bill. The Blue States lost the election for a reason, > (although some of your brothers and sisters, in the the numbers game, are still > trying in Ohio and Washington State), You definietly have me confused with someone else. My values are conservative and I vote Repuiblican 95+% of the time (I used to vote for a local congressman who was nominally a Democrat, but who was a Rebublican at heart - he switched parties about 4 years ago). and you need to understand that even > THOSE numbers had something to do with presonal perferance. Try to grasp the > concept, willya?? ;-)~ All I can say is that $0.05 or $10,000 ÷ 0 (his baseline) is not 100%. *NOW* who is not grasping the concepts? 8^) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') Mr. Bill wrote: >> Mr. Bill wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >adddress with the letter 'x') Let us know when you decide whether you want to add, subtract, multiply, or divide. You can't do all of these in the same problem, you know. Settle on one, and get back to us. God Bless, Dan'L ("If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around.") > Mr. Bill wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >>adddress with the letter 'x') > Let us know when you decide whether you want to add, subtract, > multiply, or divide. You can't do all of these in the same problem, you know. > Settle on one, and get back to us. I didn't have to decide. The entire mathematics/engineering/scientific/commercial community already decided the conventions years ago. You are just showing that you are ignorant of the conventions. And by the way - being ignorant is not in and of itself a disgrace. It's when a person is first ignorant (again - no disgrace), then hears the truth and subsequently decides to remain ignorant that is the true disgrace. Put your emotions aside for a few minutes - but first lets get one thing out of the way: In your immediately previous post (for you and, to borrow a phrase from Rush Limbaugh, those in Rio Linda, that means the one you did just before this one), you said "winning this argument is VERY important to you, for some reason". That would be equivalent to you and I disagreeing over the standard color of stop signs in the U.S where you were adamantly claiming that it is green and I inform you that it is red, you saying it was green again, my saying it's red again, you...green, me...red, back and forth, back and forth, and then finally you saying that winning the argument was important to me for some reason. OK - back to turning your emotions off and your brain on, here's the scoop. You can believe it or not: In every field of mathematics, science, whatever, when you express change (increase or decrease) in a parameter (in this discussion, the parameter is money in one's pocket), per cent change is defined as the difference between the starting state and the ending state divide by the ending state. IOW, the baseline (your term, and a good one, BTW) is **ALWAYS** the beginning state used in the comparison (calculation). Thats |P1-P2|/P1. When the words "per cent change" (again, increase or decrease, hence the absolute value of the difference) are used, it is never |P1-P2|/P2. If you doubt this, check out a book on interpretation of word problems - you will see that the above is correct. Having said that, there is a type of similar calculation in which the denominator is the second (ending) state - but when that formula applies, the phrasing is **NEVER** "per cent change" (or per cent increase or per cent decrease). For that second formula to be correctly applied, the wording would be something like a goal or target. For example, you could say "The local fund drive met X% of its goal this year". That would be |P1-P2|/P2, where the starting condition, P1, was zero (0), and the end condition was some finite value - it could be 100% - meaning the goal was 100% met. If the goal was $10,000, then $10,000 was raised. If they met 90% of the goal, then they would have raised $9,000. So back to the "flat broke" scenario. The beginning condition was zero. The end condition was some finite value - the nickel, the dollar, the $10,000, whatever. If you are using the term "per cent increase", then every competent (key word: "competent") mathematician, accountant, businessman, or engineer would tell you that the calculation for % increase was |P1-P2|/P1. And they would also tell you that if the starting point was zero, then it was a meaningless statement. (Dividing by zero only has meaning under specific situations involving limits of Calculus fame.) **NOW**: If you re-stated it to say that you are flat broke, but you have a goal of making $100 by next Tuesday, and by next Tuesday, you had that $100, *THEN* I would say that you met your goal 100% (again: |P1-P2|/P2). (In the above, allow me to multiply everything by 100 to convert the decimals to per cent - thank you.) Here's a very down-to-earth practical example. Let's say you made $10,000 last year, and this year you made $20,000. Would you say your gross income increased 100% (|P1-P2|/P1), or would you say it increased 50% (|P1-P2|/P2)? Any adult that has sense enough to put gas in his/her car would tell you, without even having to stop and think about it, that it doubled, or it was a 100% increase. They would not say that it was a 50% increase. So you tell me which formula you want to use. Once you determine, from that or any similar example, the right formula to use for determining "per cent increase", then see what happens to your meaningless phrase when you plug the numbers into your word problem. Now, Dr. Larsen. The question is are you going to choose to remain ignorant after hearing the truth, or are you, by your freedon of will going to choose to believe the (now) painfuly obvious? Choice is yours. Is that stop sign green or red? NEXT!! Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') Mr. Bill responded: >> Mr. Bill wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > >NEXT!! No. The questions, Mr. Bill, . . . . are whether you are going to allow me to continue to jerk your chain, . . . . and exercise your keyboarding abilities, or see the light at the end of this endless tunnel?? There are lots of funny and cutting lines, in response to your super-serious efforts above, to cram a HUGE amount of conditions and data into the current discussion, (hence your proclivity to allowing one to logically mis-identify you as a leftist), but exactly like my use of the intentionally misspelled "Presonal Perferance" terminology, you again give me the opportunity to crank hard on the chains that seem to drive you. I'm sorry to say that my own ethics won't allow me to close in on the purest definition of the name "Troll," so in all sincerity, I'll concede your position and allow your irrelevent conditionals and data, and say it's been fun. Have a nice day !! ;-)~ BTW, . . . . Nice that you chose red for your position on the previously unmentioned stopsigns, and green for mine, . . . . I'd have done the same, I guess! BUBB -- Eye! God Bless, Dan'L ("If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around.") > Mr. Bill responded: > ...I'll concede your position and allow your irrelevent > conditionals and data Ah - so it is clear which path you have chosen (that is, to purposefully remain ignorant). Freedom of will is a great thing. > ...Have a nice day !! And you do the same! To quote Jon Lovitz's character in "A League of Their Own", it's been a little slice of heaven. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') Mr Bill wrote: >> Mr. Bill responded: >> ...I'll concede your position and allow your irrelevent [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >And you do the same! To quote Jon Lovitz's character in "A League of >Their Own", it's been a little slice of heaven. Just don't hurt yourself, jumping to those kind of conclusions. Maybe a little research on my occupation or profession wold help, . . . . naaaww, . . . . prolly not. God Bless, Dan'L ("If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around.") > Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:50:55 -0500 > From: Bill Putney <bptn@kinex.net> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x') Sorry, Bill. I gave my answer a 110% effort, but still came up short. Life is like that sometimes. :-) --Geoff > >I'm still trying to figure out what the phrase "100% better" means. Can > >someone give an example with numbers ilustrating something being 100% > >better than something else. > > Certainly. It is 100% better to have sex with Brittany Spears, than > it is to have sex with Earnest Borgnine. Who is Earnest Borgnine? Perhaps before my time? Ted > I'm still trying to figure out what the phrase "100% better" means. It means the same thing as "New and Improved". keep trying you will get it DanC > > I'm still trying to figure out what the phrase "100% better" means. > > It means the same thing as "New and Improved". >> opinions my friend, we are all intitled to them, that was mine only ok, >> relax [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > someone give an example with numbers ilustrating something being 100% > better than something else. It was his opinion, therefore it means nothing. That was what I suspected, but he confirmed it above. Matt Matt do you loose alot of sleep over this?, > >> opinions my friend, we are all intitled to them, that was mine only ok, > >> relax [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Matt >Its been like that forever with the domestic vehicles, Now the Big Three are >cutting back on paying the technicians to diagnois, vehicles, they dont pay [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the warranty books, The independents will start to see this as they come >into the shop if they dont already see it Sounds like a sour-grapes attitude from someone with a big, BIG chip on his shoulder as well as a BIG ax to grind. >>Its been like that forever with the domestic vehicles, Now the Big Three >>are [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > his > shoulder as well as a BIG ax to grind. Call it what you want, but he is very close to being correct. The only thing that I differ on is that the independents can charge whatever the market will bear. If they think Chilton time for a particular job is too low, they can bump it to what they think is fair and then see if the customer will buy it. Denny > Call it what you want, but he is very close to being correct. The only thing > that I differ on is that the independents can charge whatever the market > will bear. And how is this different from any other business?!?... Face facts, every year cars are more complex and require more skill to repair. As the average worker in the United States considers any sort of educational endeavor after age 20 to be equivalent to asking them to join the Army and go to Iraq, it is pretty obvious that skilled auto repair technicians are a scarce commodity and as the years pass, will continue to get scarcer. We live in a capitalistic society, last I checked. In such an economic system, prices rise on scarce commodities. A skilled repair tech deserves to get whatever the market will bear. If the auto customers don't like it they can buy cars that are better made and don't break down as often, or they can learn to do their own repairs. Hell, it's not like there's not a plethora of information on fixing cars out there, there's tons of books that have been written on the subject. Ted >> Call it what you want, but he is very close to being correct. The only > thing >> that I differ on is that the independents can charge whatever the market >> will bear. > > And how is this different from any other business?!?... Never said it was. The person that I was replying to make it sound like independants were tied to Chilton/Motors/whatever time for what they charged. I just stated that they were not. Dealers are also not tied to any particular labor guide for anything other that warrenty work. Then they are forced to accept what the manufacturer will pay, be it a fair time or not. I'm really not disagreeing with anything else you state below. Denny > Face facts, every year cars are more complex and require more skill to > repair. As the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Ted "Denny" <wddodge@woh Sounds like a sour-grapes attitude from someone with a big, BIG chip on > his > shoulder as well as a BIG ax to grind.. Sorry pal you took that wrong .rr.com> wrote in message news:rctvd.64425$MG3.56156@fe2.columbus.rr.com... > >> Call it what you want, but he is very close to being correct. The only > > thing [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > > Ted > "Denny" <wddodge@woh Sounds like a sour-grapes attitude from someone with > a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sorry pal you took that wrong Hey maxpower, I didn't say that. That came from the phillips poster.. Denny I no, i was just reading it and posted to what he said, it isnt no big deal, > > "Denny" <wddodge@woh Sounds like a sour-grapes attitude from someone with > > a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Denny "maxpower" responded: >I no, i was just reading it and posted to what he said, it isnt no big deal, >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Denny No, I posted correctly as that is how I interpreted the original statement. Whether you meant it that way or not, that is how it was interpreted. What you fail to realize is that the written word will not always be interpreted by the reader in the same context in which it was written. "the phillips poster" >Hey maxpower, I didn't say that. That came from the phillips poster.. > >Denny Perhaps you should post the proper technique one shold use when quoting another post????? "the phillips poster" perhaps you should get a life and stop worrying over this, people are just so lame... > >Hey maxpower, I didn't say that. That came from the phillips poster.. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "the phillips poster" >perhaps you should get a life and stop worrying over this, people are just >so lame... I am not worried, I am having fun. I have a life but when out on disability because of a severely broken right ankle, which does not allow me to drive or do much of anything, I sit here at the computer reading and posting to see what kind of mindless repsonses you will post. You always come through with something even more senseless than your last response. Thanks for helping to make my recovery more joyful..................and you have even misquoted so I have a new nickname from "Denny"! Isn't life grand??????? "the phillips poster" >>Hey maxpower, I didn't say that. That came from the phillips poster.. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > another > post????? Doesn't matter, we all knew what we meant... > "the phillips poster" At least you go a sense of humor!! <G> Denny >>>Hey maxpower, I didn't say that. That came from the phillips poster.. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >At least you go a sense of humor!! <G> The sense of humor helps ease the pain from my ankle and the physical therapy I have to perform daily to bring it back. "the phillips poster" > The sense of humor helps ease the pain from my ankle and the physical > therapy I > have to perform daily to bring it back. > > "the phillips poster" I wish you the best and speedy recovery.... Meanwhile, if you have to be laid up, I guess the holiday season is a good as any. At least you don't have to worry about who is gonna cut the grass for ya... <BG> Denny >I wish you the best and speedy recovery.... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Denny Never do...............the gardener comes every Friday - or once in awhile on Saturday instead. "the phillips poster" >You know, its is ashame, i will never dispute that the foriegn cars are >built 100% better then the domestic vehicles, and that goes for quality >also, if i took 100 Chrysler cars and 100 foriegn cars and inspected them >brand new, i would problems with the domestic ones and maybe not one with >the the foriegn, and it has been like that as far as i can remember 100%???? This whole paragraph is nothing but horses*it and bull cr*p. Get real! Nate a breath of fresh air - I expect a lot when I pay a lot - over $30K for that Town and Country and in an environment like the Bay Area, where 50 year old cars aren't uncommon, saying that I shouldn't expect a well maintained car to last more than 10 years or 180K miles is a crock. Thanks Peter >> My wife had a 94 caravan that her door was falling down on the drivers >> side, she was backing up with the door open and hit my truck, it sprung [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > nate > The whole concept that a 10 year old vehicle is liable to have strange, > unusual failures is one that makes me shake my head and think that > perhaps you need to expect more from your vehicles. Maybe the OP *did* > do some things to promote these failures, maybe he didn't, I'm not > judging. But the whole concept that they are somehow acceptable is silly. Nate, would you just please shut the f.ck up!! Do you want to ruin it for the rest of us who never buy new vehicles? If the new car purchasers ever figure this out we are going to be back were we were in 1970, stuck buying used up 30 year old crap. Ted You still miss the point - you're making a sweeping generalization when you say these vans don't have such problems - well, mine does and no amount of denial makes that change. Not sure how to slam the lift gate open - it has two dampers in perfect working order that allows the gate to lift slowly to it's fill open position. Not a lot of rust here in the Bay area - away from the salty night air - and not a sign of any corrosion around that lift gate bolt. Peter > My wife had a 94 caravan that her door was falling down on the drivers > side, she was backing up with the door open and hit my truck, it sprung [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that isnt treated such as rotors. keep in mind, this is a 10 yr old > vehicle forgot to say..... i am also damnnickname on my PC at work > I love the "holy than thou" commentary. It's really quite funny if it > wasn't so pathetic. Give me a break - I tell you this is what happens [quoted text clipped - 145 lines] > > Thanks > > peter > I love the "holy than thou" commentary. It's really quite funny if it > wasn't so pathetic. Give me a break - I tell you this is what happens > and your instant assumption is that I am driving into medians and curbs > on a regular basis and I'm making all this stuff up - not so - I've > babied this piece of junk since I bought it. I have one of these as well - a 1995 T&C with 105K miles on it. We bought it used. And nothing like this has happened to it in it's history except for the trans. It did have it's trans replaced by the previous owner. However trans failures are endemic to this year and model and are to be expected. If it was rebuilt by a competent rebuilder in the last 4 years it will have the updates in it that will keep it from dying prematurely in the future. > I have owned this car since it was new. I took it into every Chrysler > recommended service for the best part of 8 years. Believe it - I have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dangerous!). The mom-and-pop repair shop around the corner is more > trustworthy than the Chrysler dealer(s) ever was. Car dealers rarely see anything other than warranty work. And just look at the latest recall on Chrysler products that was just announced. The numbers are something like 600,000 vehicles at $1,200 a pop, or a grand total of 720 million dollars could potentially be poured into Chrysler dealership service departments (if everyone took their vehicle back in for the recall) in the next few years. Do you really think these folks NEED your business? > While under the extended warranty - glad I bought it - the front > steering rack was replaced twice. I've since paid twice additionally for > this to be replaced. That was the local Chrysler dealerships solution to > front end alignments that didn't last 6 months. It's sad when you're on > first name basis with service advisors. It is a bullshit solution. Is is basically a "we can't figure out why it's not keeping alignment so we are just going to replace some expensive front end component to make the customer go away" kind of solution. They should have checked the frame of this vehicle. You may have a body weld that broke somewhere. > Which is the incompetent alignment shop - either of the two Chrysler > dealerships or the three different tire shops I have taken the van to - > surely one of them might have got it right. So "Caravans don't have > these problems" - mine does and has done since I bought it. If it keeps having serious steering problems after repeated realignments and throwing racks at it, then they need to look at what the rack and suspension parts are bolted to - the unibody. If this is shifting around, no alignment will hold. > The serpentine belt used to fall off with amazing regularity Never had that happen to mine. If it did I would be going through all the accessories and tensioner and such to make sure they were all in alignment, as well as making sure someone didn't leave a guard off - sometimes snow pushed up into the belt will do it, if a guard is missing. And there's a lot of crappy replacement tensioners on the market. just replacing the belt without digging for why it came off is the wrong way to do it. > but embarrassing- what? Had the idler pulley replaced - and replaced - > and replaced. If this is the tensioner your talking about the problem is elsewhere. > OK - slight exaggeration on the door falling off - but the upper drivers > side door hinge actually ripped itself off the unibdoy and I could not > shut the door - the door dropped about an inch - had to simultaneously > lift and pull to get the door to close. I had to have a body shop weld a > plate so they could re-attach it. I think this is due to possibly bad habits. I noticed those hinges myself - the sheet metal they are attached to is not very strong - and I trained my wife to when she was opening the door to never let it swing out all the way against the stop. (she is the primary driver) In short, when you open the door you don't open it and fling it open so it bangs against the stop then kicks back into your leg. Instead you open it with your hand on the door and you open it all the way then you let go of the door handle when the door has stopped moving BEFORE you get out of the van. And when entering the van you do not open the door and fling it open either. I also have to wonder if the rainwater is being properly routed on your van - perhaps a piece of weatherstrip is letting rain pour down over the hinges and there is rust there your not seeing. > And the adjustment bolt on the back hatch did shear off - looked at it > with a trouble light last night to see exactly what was going on - yup - > sheared off right at hinge level. Rear hatch drops about 9 inches or so > and of course can't be shut. Looks like we've been in a major accident - > but not. Thankfully, I don't think there is any other damage to the > hatch and it might be redeemable. Those hinge pins are hardened steel or are supposed to be. I can't help but wonder if someone at one point replaced them with mild steel bolts. For one thing they shouldn't shear off, if anything they would fracture. Maybe you got a bad batch. Did you have a body shop fix the crease on the rear tail? Maybe they took the door off for some reason. > You can choose to believe my wife and I are collectively lousy drivers > and mis-treat our automobiles, but I have a 25 year old BMW320I that I > have put over 200K miles on without this kind of nonsense. I have an 81 datsun that has never had it's doors fall off. By contrast I have an 84 olds that broke a drivers door hinge once. It happens. Can't > remember when I last had a front end alignment. An alignment is a preventative maintainence item, it is not something that you get only when the car starts pulling to the right or the left or some such. You must be of the camp that thinks an alignment is only to be gotten when there's a problem, to say something like this. That leads me to believe that your T&C only sees the inside of an alignment shop when there is a steering problem. If that is the case and your seeing such gross misalignment problems to the point that they affect steering with that high a frequency, I would think that your front end unibody is cracked. Perhaps a stress fracture or perhaps the welding robot that was putting the thing together burped when it was doing a seam, perhaps a corrosion issue, but if the steering is going that bad that frequently, you need to get the thing on a frame rack and have them check the frame to make sure it's not gradually spreading apart. > The Chrysler statement about "this doesn't happen" i.e. the tailgate > failure came from the service manager at a local Chrysler dealer who > graciously ran a repair history on the van to make sure we'd fulfilled > every recall applicable to this van - we have by the way. People rarely take their vehicles to a dealership service place when there is a body panel failure, like a busted hinge. Why would a service manager at a dealership see a lot of these? > So, my thoughtful readers - believe what you wish (and I haven't talked > about a transmission replacement - the passenger side electric window [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > personally sell it ( road rage anyone?) to someone who might know where > I live. If the body on your van was straight and the engine still runs well I would consider driving my 81 Datsun down there, parking it on the side of the road with a sign on it saying "Free Car" and leave the title and keys in the glovebox, then drive your van back. Even just having it sitting in the driveway as a parts source would be worth it. > Northern California is a very benign environment for an automobile. But > a lemon is a lemon where ever it might be. I live in Oregon which is the same deal. But what I think you are suffering from is simply nothing more than piss-poor auto repairs. Look, one of the fundamental things that I have found with car repairs is that is it more common for the failed part to be caused by some other failed thing. Take a water pump leak. People think "Oh, the water pump just wore out" They don't consider that the antifreeze in the engine is 8 years old and while it still is a 50-50 mix according to the antifreese hydrometer, by now all the lubricant and anti-corrosion additives are completely shot. Hell, there's wrecking yards here that give away used antifreeze for free. With antifreeze running at $8 a bottle, I know darn well that there's people going to those yards for "free' antifreeze. Lots and lots of repairs are like this. Hell we see this in emissions work all the time. People can't pass emissions so they go throw a new catcon on the car and pass emissions, then figure they fixed the problem. Meanwhile the vacuum leak that is causing their engine to run lean and thus burn up the catcon, remains unrepaired. Or, people get a code for a failed EGR valve and they go replace the EGR valve and ignore the O2 sensor, which has gotten lazy. Don't they know the computer uses the o2 output to determine if the egr valve is functioning? Apparently not. In your case, you have a front end problem. I can almost guarentee that if they have thrown 4 racks into this vehicle in 100,000 miles then the problem isn't the rack, no matter what they say. Perhaps what the real problem is, is making the rack wear out prematurely, or perhaps the shop is too stupid or lazy to bother trying to figure out the real problem and the racks are actually not bad. But, you can believe that the root problem has NEVER been solved here. These failing racks - if they really failed - are a symptom of the real cause. > > Can anyone tell me what thread and length for this bolt? I'm going to > > have to careully drill out the sheared-off bolt, perhaps re-thread the > > hole and hope that nothing was grossly twisted in this "event". The > > local Chrysler says "this doesn't happen". Well, it did... You need to visit a wrecking yard and get the complete hinge and pin from a van with a smashed tailgate. Don't try fixing this with a drill and some dimestore hardware store bolt. Ted > ...By contrast I > have an 84 olds that broke a drivers door hinge once. It happens. I can't help but wonder if that Olds was of the X-body type. The '80 Chevy Citation that I bought new had one of the driver's door hinges come apart (hinge plate separated from the body) - combination of weak design and a weld at the low end of the bell curve that ate up what little design safety factor there was. An awful experience getting any help from GM on getting htat fixed. >> Can't remember when I last had a front end alignment. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a frame rack and have them check the frame to make sure it's not > gradually spreading apart. Although I get beat up pretty regularly on this ng for urging people to have their alignment shop provide them with 'before' and 'after' printouts on their alignments, this is an absolutely perfect example of where that would, if not provide the precise root cause of the problem, at least *greatly* narrow down componenets or areas to focus on for the cause and fix. But what do I know. 8^) > ...Look, one of the fundamental things that I have found with car repairs is > that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > running at $8 a bottle, I know darn well that there's people going to those > yards for "free' antifreeze. Heh heh! That's probably to avoid having to pay a third-party a "hazardous wast disposal fee" to haul it off. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > > ...By contrast I > > have an 84 olds that broke a drivers door hinge once. It happens. > > I can't help but wonder if that Olds was of the X-body type. Bill, No, A-body. Olds Ciera. The hinge part that was welded to the door post fractured in half, thus only one weld was holding the hinge on, that weld broke right off the sheet metal soon afterwards. I don't think it was ever welded properly, the weld looked like the sheet metal of the door post never melted into the weld itself. The '80 > Chevy Citation that I bought new had one of the driver's door hinges > come apart (hinge plate separated from the body) - combination of weak > design and a weld at the low end of the bell curve that ate up what > little design safety factor there was. An awful experience getting any > help from GM on getting htat fixed. well, mine was too old for GM help, I took it to a body shop who had seen this before. The replacement hinges were bolted onto the door post. They didn't even try rewelding it which kind of surprised me. If I had known they wern't going to reweld it, I would have fixed it myself. I've welded on sheet metal before and watched a master welder do it, so I knew I couldn't have rewelded the hinge myself, that is why I took it out. Apparently the body shop guy knew he couldn't do it either. > > running at $8 a bottle, I know darn well that there's people going to those > > yards for "free' antifreeze. > > Heh heh! That's probably to avoid having to pay a third-party a > "hazardous wast disposal fee" to haul it off. Of course. My observations from hanging around watching transactions at the counters of these yards is that the primary consumers of this are most likely the migrant Mexican workers who are too poor to replace leaking water pumps and such in their roach coaches, they just keep pouring the free stuff in. So the antifreeze ends up spilled on the road anyway. Those people seem to treat wrecking yards as full service auto parts stores. Ted Ted Thank you - a most reasoned reply! Peter >>I love the "holy than thou" commentary. It's really quite funny if it >>wasn't so pathetic. Give me a break - I tell you this is what happens [quoted text clipped - 214 lines] > > Ted Too bad you didn't go the Lemon Law approach when you 1st bought it and had the vehicle replaced with another one. It would have been a good change that another one would have been fine. I know dozen's of people with Caravan's giving excellent service. I've owned two (a 1987 1st year Grand and my current 1997 Grand). The '87 we sold to friends in 1997 and they ran it another 5 years...the only problem they eventually had was with the smoking mitsushitty 3.0 V6 engine. did you have any doors fall off James? > Too bad you didn't go the Lemon Law approach when you 1st bought it and had the > vehicle replaced with another one. It would have been a good change that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > years...the only problem they eventually had was with the smoking mitsushitty > 3.0 V6 engine. James looked into that, but never quite qualified, and things always seemed to go wrong just outside of Chrysler warranty on repairs. Yes, I've got friends who have had good luck with the Caravan/ Voyager/Town and Country - I just happened to hit an unlucky one. Thanks Peter > Too bad you didn't go the Lemon Law approach when you 1st bought it and had the > vehicle replaced with another one. It would have been a good change that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > years...the only problem they eventually had was with the smoking mitsushitty > 3.0 V6 engine. | James | [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | Yes, I've got friends who have had good luck with the Caravan/ | Voyager/Town and Country - I just happened to hit an unlucky one. Yep, it's too bad you had to go through that. And, it's understandable why you may not purchase another Chrysler product as a result. the current post about the Durango whelles falling off makes my point - DC has made millions of these as well - and my neighbor loves hers - but sometimes the wheels fall off...'nuff said! Peter > My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought > it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Thanks > peter >the current post about the Durango whelles falling off makes my point - >DC has made millions of these as well - and my neighbor loves hers - but >sometimes the wheels fall off...'nuff said! Millions???????????? No, in actuality the number is around 610,000..........and the wheels falling off is one problem, not the entire vehicle. In reality Chrysler looked in their crystal ball when you went to buy your T&C and they said, "We will sell this one vehicle that will have virtually everything go wrong with it to this guy, Peter Denyer". statistics are a wonderful thing - most cars are pretty good and you get what you paid for. Some are even better than that, some are worse. Depending on where you are on that great statistical bell curve, you could end up with an absolute dog, or a car that lasts forever. No crystal ball needed - random chance gets you. As an example my ex-neighbor has a GM pickup built at least 40 years ago - all his buddies on the assembly line knew it was his and paid extra care to make things as perfect as they could. He never had a lick of problem all time I knew him and he claimed he never did have any serious problem. Ended up giving it to his granddaughter when he felt too old to drive it safely any more. Obviously something to the far right of that statistical bell curve. My van, on the other hand... Peter >>the current post about the Durango whelles falling off makes my point - >>DC has made millions of these as well - and my neighbor loves hers - but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > said, "We will sell this one vehicle that will have virtually everything go > wrong with it to this guy, Peter Denyer". > statistics are a wonderful thing - most cars are pretty good and you get > what you paid for. Some are even better than that, some are worse. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > drive it safely any more. Obviously something to the far right of that > statistical bell curve. Except that his buddies had very little to do with it. The far bigger affect is the components that are put on the vehicle and this isn't an assembly line issue. Yes, it sounds like he was one of the lucky ones that got a vehicle where all of the parts were at the center of the specification limits. Matt | the current post about the Durango whelles falling off makes my point - | DC has made millions of these as well - and my neighbor loves hers - but | sometimes the wheels fall off...'nuff said! | | Peter I believe they reported 46 occurrences out of 600,000 vehicles...if my memory serves me correctly (I'm sire if it's not right, someone here will know the real numbers). I wonder what the average is for this situation (yes wheels fall off of other cars as well..so there is a average) Hey I think the center bolt on the rear hinge is some kind of shear pin, it looks like it's intended to break and allow the door to pivot up with out falling off. I'd stop by a bone yard and pick up another hinge for a buck or so. KS > My 1995 Town and Country has been a mechanical nightmare sice I bought > it - love the form factor, but it's a dud otherwise - replaced the front [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Thanks > peter yup your right, its a shear pin so the door falls off on the occupant trying to open it, I hope Matt Whitting doesnt read this, poor guy gets no sleep on the 100% thinging I said., this may cause him to start drinking!!! > Hey I think the center bolt on the rear hinge is some kind of shear pin, it > looks like it's intended to break and allow the door to pivot up with out [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thanks > > peter |
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