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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / January 200585 turbo - coughs on heavy accel load
My 1985 lebaron Town and Country convertible runs fine around town, no idling problems, good get up and go. Only problem is if I happen to have to really push the motor, like trying to accelerate up a steep grade too quickly, or pass somebody and almost floor it, the motor will hesitate and lose power momentarily, as if the gas or ignition has almost been cut off, over and over again, till I lift off the gas a bit and accelerate slower. Sort of a "chug" where power drops out like it's going to die, then comes back quickly. What are the possible causes of this? If the knock sensor detected enough knock could it do this (I don't really hear knocking but I mostly ride with top down.) Maybe I should try a tank of premium first. Timing is set at Calif. factory setting. I think I changed the big fuel filter about 50K ago. Could it be dirty again and cause this? thanks! clarification, this is a 2.2 turbo, 121,000 miles...Frenchy > clarification, this is a 2.2 turbo, 121,000 miles...Frenchy "Turbo" is key word. Sounds like over-boost shut down to me. Is the wastegate failing to open? Trouble codes set? > My 1985 lebaron Town and Country convertible clarification, this is a > 2.2 turbo, 121,000 miles, runs fine around town, no idling problems, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > slower. Sort of a "chug" where power drops out like it's going to die, > then comes back quickly. What are the possible causes of this? Depending on the timing of this "chug" event relative to when you mash the accelerator, it could be that the computer is detecting an overboost condition and is momentarily killing power to the ASD relay to bring the situation under control, or it could be something less exotic. Your first step is to check for flash codes. To check the computer codes: With the engine off, switch the ignition key on-off-on-off-on, leaving it "ON". Do not go to "start", just "on" during this procedure. Watch the "Check Engine" or "Power Loss" light. It will turn on, then go off, then will begin to flash-out any trouble codes that have been stored. For instance, if it flashes: flash <pause> flash flash <long pause> flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash <long pause> flash flash flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash Then you have a 12 (one flash followed by two) a 35 (three and five) and a 55 (five and five). 55 means "end of codes" or, if by itself, "No codes stored. Check the codes and report what you find. > Maybe I should try a tank of premium first. Maybe you should diagnose the problem systematically and fix what's broken. > Timing is set at Calif. factory setting. I think I changed the big fuel > filter about 50K ago. Could it be dirty again and cause this? Yes, you are overdue for a fuel filter by about 20,000 miles if you're lazy, or 30,000 miles if you're smart. What else is overdue on your car...? DS Sounds to me like simple ignition weakness. Plugs and/or wires shot, distributor cap worn out (did that model still have a distributor?), coil weak. The spark has the hardest time jumping the gap under the highest compression pressures, and that happens at low-to-mid RPMs and wide-open throttle. Any weakening of the spark will result in hesitation. Dan There's no need to replace a fuel filter unless is clogged. But, first you must test it for clogging to know whether or not replacement is indicated. The test: Remove filter. Attach a length of fuel hose to the inlet and outlet Attach a funnel to the inlet hose and guide the outlet hose to a catch container Measure out one pint of kerosine in a container Start a stopwatch and pour the kerosine into the funnel Time the flow. If 30 seconds or less, the filter is good. If the filter is good, reattach to vehicle. If bad, affix the replacement. Its good practice to replace the flex lines to the filter. Tighten clamps sufficiently and test for leaks. During this procedure you will notice the inadequate design of the fuel lines. Clamp-on rubber hose is not good practice for 55 psi gasoline. It is very dangerous as fuel fed fires are likely. The FAA will not allow such a system on any certificated aircraft. Attention shyster lawyers out there. If you have any property damage or personal injury cases involving fuel system fires in Chrysler products which involve clamp on lines, please contact me as I do expert witness testimony in courts of law. Does the power loss lite turn on when this happens and then goes back out? If so it is going into overboost, check vaccum hoses to and from the turbo especially behind the valve cover and the hose at the bottom of the turbo, But it could be a number of things though, tune up? plugs/wires breaking down? Check for any fault codes in the power module............ Knock sensor would not cuase this. Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech > My 1985 lebaron Town and Country convertible runs fine around town, no > idling problems, good get up and go. Only problem is if I happen to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > factory setting. I think I changed the big fuel filter about 50K ago. > Could it be dirty again and cause this? thanks! > Does the power loss lite turn on when this happens and then goes back out? > If so it is going into overboost, check vaccum hoses to and from the turbo > especially behind the valve cover and the hose at the bottom of the turbo, > But it could be a number of things though, tune up? plugs/wires breaking > down? Check for any fault codes in the power module............ Knock sensor > would not cuase this.>> Ok folks I dumbly forgot to check for any problem codes first, I'll check tonight. Did not notice the light coming on when problem occurs but this is with the top down in the sun going 60 so wasn't exactly looking for it, will observe it next time it happens. Will report back what I find. thanks...Frenchy Oops the car is right outside, duh. Ok even though I just cleaned the battery terminals since the last time I noticed the problem (the time before last that I drove it), I just checked and sure enough I have a 12 code (battery recent disconnect) and a 45 code (overboost) and 55 (end test). If I pull on the overboost rod HARD with both hands, it moves away from the diaphragm and returns back ok. Free but hard to move, normal I suppose. How far should the rod be able to be pulled? Seems like about an inch. So what pushes the rod out of the diaphragm, the exhaust pressure? And the small hose is a vacuum hose to modulate it? Or are both hoses vacuum and they move the wastegate with just the negative vacuum (boost)? Have to wait till I get home to check the condition of the hoses. thanks again...Frenchy dont worry about how far the rod moves,,check the vacuum lines, at the waste gate solonoid to the acuator, if your lucky you will just find it has a broken hose, > Oops the car is right outside, duh. Ok even though I just cleaned the > battery terminals since the last time I noticed the problem (the time [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Have to wait till I get home to check the condition of the hoses. > thanks again...Frenchy > 12 code (battery recent disconnect) and a 45 code (overboost) and 55 > (end test). 12 = "Start of Codes" when read via the dashboard light. 45 = what I expected you'd find. > If I pull on the overboost rod HARD with both hands, it > moves away from the diaphragm and returns back ok. Free but hard to > move, normal I suppose. Yep, there should be stiff spring tension on it, alright. But, you may want to remove the wastegate actuator rod from the wastegate lever and make sure the lever swings freely. If it is binding, it will cause overboost. Hitting the wastegate shaft with Mopar P/N 4318039AB penetrating fluid (do not substitute) usually eliminates the binding condition. > How far should the rod be able to be pulled? Seems like about an inch. That's about right. > So what pushes the rod out of the diaphragm, the exhaust pressure? No, intake manifold pressure (under boost). > And the small hose is a vacuum hose to modulate it? Or are both hoses > vacuum and they move the wastegate with just the negative vacuum > (boost)? Your idea here is more or less correct, but there's no such thing as "negative vacuum". Boost is considered positive pressure and is measured in pounds per square inch (PSI). Vacuum is considered negative pressure and is measured in inches of Mercury (in. Hg). Both are considered relative to atmospheric. If there is a leak anywhere in the hose running to the wastegate actuator, overboost will result. Same if there's a faulty or sticking wastegate actuator vacuum control solenoid. And my question from before stands: You're long overdue for a new fuel filter, so what else has been let slide? > If there is a leak anywhere in the hose running to the wastegate actuator, > overboost will result. Same if there's a faulty or sticking wastegate > actuator vacuum control solenoid. > > And my question from before stands: You're long overdue for a new fuel > filter, so what else has been let slide?>> Heyyyy, I just put on 4 new tires this week, noticed a busted CV boot and had them fix that at same time and changed oil and filter, I always keep oil and transmission fluid topped off, I slapped on a new timing belt recently, new distrib rotor, and I keep the fake wood varnished. I did notice I had let the power steering go almost dry so after refilling it I had them flush it out and refilled it again. I was thinking of getting a new Sebring but I can't let go of this darn Woodster!...Frenchy > > And my question from before stands: You're long overdue for a new fuel > > filter, so what else has been let slide?>> > Heyyyy, I just put on 4 new tires this week, noticed a busted CV boot > and had them fix that at same time and changed oil and filter, OK, that's good, but you've also got 50,000 miles on the fuel filter...! No insult is intended, just factfinding. How long since the entire crankcase ventillation system was serviced (much more than just replacing the PCV valve)? Spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap? Air filter? How long since the throttle body was cleaned? > OK, that's good, but you've also got 50,000 miles on the fuel filter...! > No insult is intended, just factfinding. How long since the entire > crankcase ventillation system was serviced (much more than just replacing > the PCV valve)? Spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap? Air filter? How > long since the throttle body was cleaned?>> Bingo, it was the bottom vacuum hose on the wastegate, it's rotting into friggin' cracked, melted rubber goo and had a big gash in it where it connects to the nipple. Was out of sight, and out of mind : \ Guess this explains the damn wandering idle speed I tried to diagnose but could never figure out too. Yes it's got newer plugs, wires, dist cap, air filter, and I cleaned the throttle body like a clock back when I was trying to fix the goofy idle but gave up and lived with it. It would only do it sometimes, would quit doing it for a while, then start up again, and depended on whether car was warmed up sometimes. Apparently was just that rotten hose crack heating up and letting in a bit more vacuum some times than others. Off to buy some new hose tommorrow and will try to do better job of checking all the vacuum hoses this time too (I've found and fixed a few cracked plastic tube hoses in there before). Replaced the dist rotor once when the little plastic alignment pin broke and rotor just spun freely, that was a bitch to figure out! And I'll get another fuel filter. What do I need to do to clean the PVC system other than cleaning the valve? THANKS EVERYBODY!..Frenchy > Bingo, it was the bottom vacuum hose on the wastegate, There y'go. Easy fix. > And I'll get another fuel filter. What do I need to do to clean the > PVC system other than cleaning the valve? *REPLACE* the valve if it's been on there a few years. Inspect *all* the hoses and rubber elbows in the system. Don't forget the one at the left rear corner of the camshaft cover, at the other end of which is a crankcase inlet air filter that needs periodic replacement. > > Bingo, it was the bottom vacuum hose on the wastegate, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > rear corner of the camshaft cover, at the other end of which is a > crankcase inlet air filter that needs periodic replacement. Note in particular that the hoses in the convolute tube that run along the back of the valve cover, and the fuel injector wiring harness, have a tendency to get cooked.  SignatureJoseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Just for information - the wastegate control solenoid that allows vacuum to go to the wastegate - exactly when does the computer turn that on, or off? Why does it need to control when vacuum can get to it or not, I mean, what would happen if the vacuum was just routed to the wastegate all the time instead of on and off? thanks If you were to route vacuum to the waste gate all the time you would loose the boost. here is a good site that may answer any questions you have http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/perf/index.html > Just for information - the wastegate control solenoid that allows > vacuum to go to the wastegate - exactly when does the computer turn > that on, or off? Why does it need to control when vacuum can get to it > or not, I mean, what would happen if the vacuum was just routed to the > wastegate all the time instead of on and off? thanks I figured that is what you would find, good for you!!! > > OK, that's good, but you've also got 50,000 miles on the fuel > filter...! [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > And I'll get another fuel filter. What do I need to do to clean the > PVC system other than cleaning the valve? THANKS EVERYBODY!..Frenchy DO NOT USE PLATINUM PLUGS OR BOSH PLUGS< USE ONLY CHAMPION< i belive they were rn12yc, some plugs will mess with the timing of the power module and cause all kinds of idle problems. Almost like it is searching because the timing is flucuating so bad > DO NOT USE PLATINUM PLUGS OR BOSH PLUGS< USE ONLY CHAMPION< i belive they > were rn12yc, some plugs will mess with the timing of the power module and > cause all kinds of idle problems. Almost like it is searching because the > timing is flucuating so bad Dang, that's odd... I knew that part number sounded familiar, and sure enough that is as best I can figure the modern equivalent of the stock spark plug for a '56 Packard or Stude Golden Hawk. Never seen it used anywhere else. Nothing really to contribute other than to comment on that, and make a mental note to ask for plugs for a '85 2.2 turbo next time I need a set for a Packard motor. Saves a lot of explaining, it does. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >> DO NOT USE PLATINUM PLUGS OR BOSH PLUGS< USE ONLY CHAMPION< i belive they >> were rn12yc, some plugs will mess with the timing of the power module and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > spark plug for a '56 Packard or Stude Golden Hawk. Never seen it used > anywhere else. IIRC, RNxxYC is the stock plug for smallblock Mopars, where xx indicates heat range (12 & 14 being typical). So there are a few million applications for you :-) Big block Mopars use the RJxxYC (shorter thread reach) series plug. > >> DO NOT USE PLATINUM PLUGS OR BOSH PLUGS< USE ONLY CHAMPION< i belive they > >> were rn12yc, some plugs will mess with the timing of the power module and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > applications for you :-) Big block Mopars use the RJxxYC (shorter thread > reach) series plug. Thanks! That's more helpful than you know; a J12Y is the stock plug for a Studebaker R-series (Avanti high compression) motor. Guess what else I have laying around :) Makes life easier when you aren't near a "good" parts store and the counter guy claims he needs an application, he can't just look up a J12Y (and why not?) but of course his computerized thingy only goes back to 1969 or whatever. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever replaced the plugs in any MoPars, just cleaned them and kept on rolling. My MoPar-owning phase coincided nicely with my "broke as heck" phase :( nate On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, that idiot wrote: > DO NOT USE PLATINUM PLUGS OR BOSH PLUGS< USE ONLY CHAMPION< As usual, this source has given half-correct information. Yes, Bosch plugs fail early and often. Their regular plugs used to be OK until production was moved to China about 18 months ago. Their platinum plugs have never been a wise choice in a Chrysler turbo engine. But no, you don't have to "USE ONLY CHAMPION". Any well-made plug of the correct configuration and heat range will do just fine, and my experience has been that Champions' quality control is too inconsistent to rely on. I used to favor Autolites, and still use them from time to time, but I've come to like NGKs quite a bit -- they're of consistently high quality. > some plugs will mess with the timing of the power module More horseshit from damnnickname. There is no way a spark plug can alter the "timing of the power module". Daniel you are putting your foot back in your mouth again, Idle was controlled by the timing back then, With autolite/bosh and some other plugs.I say use Champion because I no that was the only one that I know didnt create a problem. The Power Module saw the resistors in them and caused the timing to jump all over, causing extreme idle problems hesitation problems and more, , I have fixed many a problem at the dealer by simply removing the those plugs and installing Champions, If you dont know what you are talking about maybe you should put your key board up... I would bet you are one of those guys that put everypart on the car untill given up and told your cust to take it to the dealer... Is that so? The next time you get one of these vehicles, put a timing lite on it and see for youself, but then again I bet you dont know how to use one > Yes, Bosch plugs > fail early and often. Their regular plugs used to be OK until production. It had nothing to do with failing > More horseshit from damnnickname. There is no way a spark plug can alter > the "timing of the power module". And here once again, you have no clue what you are talking about Stick with the voltmeter and regulator, you are good at bullshitting your customers with that > On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, that idiot wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > More horseshit from damnnickname. There is no way a spark plug can alter > the "timing of the power module". DO NOT USE PLATINUM PLUGS OR BOSH PLUGS< USE ONLY CHAMPION< i belive they were rn12yc, some plugs will mess with the timing of the power module and cause all kinds of idle problems. Almost like it is searching because the timing is flucuating so bad > overboost. Hitting the wastegate shaft with Mopar P/N 4318039AB > penetrating fluid (do not substitute) usually eliminates the binding I've never heard of penetrating fluid before -- what's the distinction between penetrating fluid and penetrating oil? SignatureJoseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer > > overboost. Hitting the wastegate shaft with Mopar P/N 4318039AB > > penetrating fluid (do not substitute) usually eliminates the binding > I've never heard of penetrating fluid before It's the new name for what Mopar used to call "Manifold Heat Control Valve Solvent". > What's the distinction between penetrating fluid and penetrating oil? Dunno, good question. 4318039AB (and its predecessor 4318039) smells quite unlike any penetrating oil I've ever used, and the smell is definitely not one of petroleum distillates. It also has a strange consistency. But nothing else works even close to as well on heat riser valves and suchlike. DS > Dunno, good question. 4318039AB (and its predecessor 4318039) smells quite >unlike any penetrating oil I've ever used, and the smell is definitely not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > nothing else works even close to as well on heat riser valves and > suchlike. Now there is something I would have to agree with DS > > > overboost. Hitting the wastegate shaft with Mopar P/N 4318039AB > > > penetrating fluid (do not substitute) usually eliminates the binding [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > DS > Check for any fault codes in the power module............ Pure slapstick! Hey dicks back, hi Dick > > Check for any fault codes in the power module............ > > Pure slapstick! |
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