Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / January 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Re: Coolant in the oil

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Nomen Nescio - 18 Jan 2005 20:30 GMT
>You drove it like that for *months* before you got it fixed. Coolant is a
>rotten engine lubricant when cold, even worse when baked and whipped with
>hot oil. Your main bearings, cam bearings, big and small end rod bearings
>will have suffered.
>
>But that's OK, 'cause you obviously don't care.

..blah, blah per Daniel J. Stern

You miss the entire point of this failure mode, Dan.  The objective should
be design and fabrication perfection; ie, prevention of such failure modes,
so detection of these malfunctions need not be made by owners or users.

Certain advances in design and construction were made in tires, for
example.  Have you noticed how rare it is to have a flat these days with
tubeless tires?  With tubes, flats were commonplace.  No car company would
think of using tubes, even if tubes cost half as much as tubeless, which
they don't.

But since I have identified the problem of head gasket failure and given
the world the solution to same, have you seen progress in that direction?
Even by supposedly world reknown German "craftsmen" and "engineers" there
has not been one iota of progress towards a failsafe head design.

To reinterate: No water or oil should go through any openings in the head
gasket.  The only holes in the head gasket should be cylinder bore holes
and cylinder bolt holes.  Instead, the block and head should be two
separate, closed systems for coolant.  The radiator, pump and thermostat
all stay the same as it is now.  But, water does not flow vertically from
block to head.  Instead, the coolant flows from the front to the rear of
the block, exits the block and enters an external manifold.  Therein, it
traverses vertically to the rear of the head whereby it begins its
horizontal flow forward and exits to continue its cycle round and round.
To facilitate even cooling and distribution, so-called "water distribution"
tubes can be used.  Oil is likewise transferred via an external manifold.
The manifold would be a dual, cooland/oil manifold of cast aluminum.  There
are no flexible lines to leak or go bad.  This arrangement may require a
certain amount of h.p. derating, but it is well worth it in terms of
reliability.

Using the above design specification, head gaskets would still "fail"
occasionally, but the consequences would be trivial.  As you observe, head
gasket failure today in 99.99% of the cases is a slow leak of gas pressure.
Such a slow leak of gas would in no way be noticed in the above design as
such gas would merely pass harmlessly to another cylinder or to the
atmosphere.  It is the small gas leak into the water jacket (or oil
gallery) that causes the damage to today's cars.

As for me, I will not buy any new car which has a tell tale chip in it
design to reveal to the police all the information needed to put you in
prison.  This concludes my eludicating presentation for today, Daniel.
maxpower - 19 Jan 2005 00:07 GMT
clap clap clap clap
> >You drove it like that for *months* before you got it fixed. Coolant is a
> >rotten engine lubricant when cold, even worse when baked and whipped with
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> design to reveal to the police all the information needed to put you in
> prison.  This concludes my eludicating presentation for today, Daniel.
Lawrence Glickman - 19 Jan 2005 00:12 GMT
>clap clap clap clap

You really ought to see a doctor about that.

Lg
maxpower - 19 Jan 2005 19:18 GMT
good come back Lawrence!!!

> >clap clap clap clap
>
> You really ought to see a doctor about that.
>
> Lg
Anthony - 19 Jan 2005 00:53 GMT
> ..blah, blah per Daniel J. Stern

> But since I have identified the problem of head gasket failure and
> given the world the solution to same, have you seen progress in that
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> from the front to the rear of the block, exits the block and enters an
> external manifold.

So, you want to fix one gasketed, bolted joint, by adding MORE bolted,
gasketed joints to fail.

> Therein, it traverses vertically to the rear of
> the head whereby it begins its horizontal flow forward and exits to
> continue its cycle round and round. To facilitate even cooling and
> distribution, so-called "water distribution" tubes can be used.

So, we add even MORE sealing issues, and MORE parts

> Oil
> is likewise transferred via an external manifold. The manifold would
> be a dual, cooland/oil manifold of cast aluminum.  There are no
> flexible lines to leak or go bad.

But, according to your statement above, you will be adding (presumably),
steel 'water distribution tubes', which will still require a seal, that
can fail.

> This arrangement may require a
> certain amount of h.p. derating, but it is well worth it in terms of
> reliability.

What increase in reliability?  In your own words, you will be adding even
MORE bolted, gasketed joints, along with 'water distribution tubes' that
will require seals, along with ANOTHER manifold.

> Using the above design specification, head gaskets would still "fail"
> occasionally, but the consequences would be trivial.  As you observe,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> cylinder or to the atmosphere.  It is the small gas leak into the
> water jacket (or oil gallery) that causes the damage to today's cars.

I beg to differ. Ever seen an engine where the gas was leaking by the
seal?  Easy to spot, as there will be a trench burned out from down
inside the cylinder, across the deck and head, to the exit point.  The
gas is not a 'slow leak', and it isn't harmless. In that situation, it is
actually more akin to a plasma arc, and does damage just as a plasma arc
would.

> As for me, I will not buy any new car which has a tell tale chip in it
> design to reveal to the police all the information needed to put you
> in prison.  This concludes my eludicating presentation for today,
> Daniel.

As for head gasket failures, there are many reasons, one being the need
to reduce weight in the engine, which leads to thinner, less stable
castings. You also have, thermal cycling,(remember, that engine may start
up at -50?, and reach an operating temperature of 190?. That is 240? of
metal expansion, or contraction, if you go the other way), bolt failure
(unpredicted stretch), damages during assembly, and a host of other
things.

Signature

Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Steve - 19 Jan 2005 15:59 GMT
>>To reinterate: No water or oil should go through any openings in the
>>head gasket.  The only holes in the head gasket should be cylinder
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> So, you want to fix one gasketed, bolted joint, by adding MORE bolted,
> gasketed joints to fail.

<clap clap clap clap!>
Steve - 19 Jan 2005 15:58 GMT
>>You drove it like that for *months* before you got it fixed. Coolant is a
>>rotten engine lubricant when cold, even worse when baked and whipped with
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> be design and fabrication perfection; ie, prevention of such failure modes,
> so detection of these malfunctions need not be made by owners or users.

So you're saying people intelligent enough to work their way into a
position of designing machinery should be held to a standard of
perfection, but its OK for everyone else to be stupid blithering idiots.

Figures.

Personally, I'd rather eliminate idiots than demand perfection from anyone.
Sportster4Eva - 19 Jan 2005 16:39 GMT
> You miss the entire point of this failure mode, Dan.  The objective should
> be design and fabrication perfection; ie, prevention of such failure modes,
> so detection of these malfunctions need not be made by owners or users.

<snippage of overly technical unfeasible resolution>
The answer comes in 5 words; Copper O-Ringed Block and Heads
Gaskets could be made this way...
Signature

Paul
'91 XL1200
'77 GL1000 (W.I.P.)
"I feel more like I do now than when I got here"

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.