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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / March 20052000 Concorde LXi Tranmission
While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a slight shift or hesitation and began looking at gages, suspecting the worst; nothing but the speedometer registered unusual and the car continued. I traveled about a quarter to a half mile, stopped at a station, checked the trans fluid and found nothing unusual. slight odor from the fluid but nothing like burnt fluid. I pulled out of the station and chose to drive side roads rather than turn back on the throughway; a wise decision. The speedometer continued to stay at zero and - although I must have been traveling no more than 35 to 40 miles an hour, the RPMs exceeded 2000; as though I were stuck in first gear. After traveling about half a mile, the transmission light came on ( I assume that's what it was despite my failure to find a similar picture in the service manual). I continued to drive with that light on for another quarter of a mile to half mile then shut off the car as soon as I found a safe place and called a tow truck. It was towed to a Chrysler dealer. Now I sit here shuddering about the call I expect Monday morning;$$$$. What are likely root causes of this problem? My '95 Concorde had the transmission replaced at 25000. I was "assured" the trans problems were corrected. Now another Concorde five years younger - with only 55000 - starts sputtering in the drive chain. What the hell's the mater with these components? Or could this be an electrical issue.like a computer module of some sort? And what's my likelihood of getting Chrysler to pick up at least half the tab? > While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my > speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > some sort? And what's my likelihood of getting Chrysler to pick up at least > half the tab? Your out put speed sensor quit on you, have the dealer replace both sensors on this trans, the Input and the Output speed sensor, the two parts should cost about $65.00 and I wouldn't expect to pay more then 1.5 labor for the job. Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech I never thought I'd be pleased to hear my car needed repair but that's what happens when you expect a $2500 bill and learn it's gonna' cost less than $200. I appreciate the help. A few more questions: Q1) That indicator light. Is that something that gets triggered by transmission fluid heat but needs to shut off by a mechanic. In other words, it goes on automatically but not off automatically. Q2) Are these parts that are readily accessible without tampering with the transmission itself - like something bolted onto the housing or somewhere else in the engine? Q3) I have a manual and am mechanically inclined. I'm also retired and not readily inclined to slide under my car for very long. An Hour and a half may be too long. >> While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my >> speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Glenn Beasley > Chrysler Tech > Q1) That indicator light. Is that something that gets triggered by > transmission fluid heat but needs to shut off by a mechanic. In other > words, it goes on automatically but not off automatically. It's on because the computer isn't seeing proper signals from the output speed sensor. > Q2) Are these parts that are readily accessible without tampering with > the transmission itself - like something bolted onto the housing or > somewhere else in the engine? They are indeed accessible from the outside, without disassembling the transmission. > Q3) I have a manual and am mechanically inclined. I'm also retired and > not readily inclined to slide under my car for very long. An Hour and a > half may be too long. Which manual do you have? It must be a FACTORY manual, not a Haynes or Chilton, etc., or you are wasting your time and risking injury and/or damage. I've got the official factory service manual from Chrysler. Will the light automatically go out when the parts are replaced? If those parts are on the outside, I have trouble understanding what risk of injury or damage might occur. But then... I haven't looked at the manual yet for this operation. When I think about it though, it's a moot point. The car is at the dealership, I'd have to tow it about two miles (assuming I shouldn't drive it as is), then I'd have to get the parts Monday and make the repair in the rain followed by snow (northern Ohio). Bunk! I'll just let Chrysler do it and be guided by what I'm told here. I'm acquainted with the service manager (he's help give me advice on various things I've done myself) and he seems to be fair. If I let him know Monday that I seem to have my finger on the problem that should help keep the labor where it ought to be. I assume the 1.5 is what "the book" (what IS that book called that gives you guys the expected time of repair?) calls for. I appreciate all the help. >> Q1) That indicator light. Is that something that gets triggered by >> transmission fluid heat but needs to shut off by a mechanic. In other [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Chilton, etc., or you are wasting your time and risking injury and/or > damage. > I've got the official factory service manual from Chrysler. Will the light > automatically go out when the parts are replaced? If those parts are on the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I appreciate all the help. Shop rate book. 20 minute job for a DIY'er. They'll probably charge you the 1.5 hours - one of the costs of having "professionals" do it. BTW - you might want to visit and consider joining the 300M Enthusiasts Club: http://300mclub.100megs42.com/ Their forums: http://300mclub.100megs42.com/forums/index.php Also www.dodgeintrepid.net forums. All 2nd gen. LH cars are 95+% mechanically the same. There are no good Concorde forums, so those are the places to hang out. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > I've got the official factory service manual from Chrysler. Will the light > automatically go out when the parts are replaced? If those parts are on the > outside, I have trouble understanding what risk of injury or damage might > occur. Daniel Stern had a car he couldnt fix a few years ago and got into a deep mess with the owner so he blamed the after market manual for that. That is what he meant when by the comment below > > Which manual do you have? It must be a FACTORY manual, not a Haynes or > > Chilton, etc., or you are wasting your time and risking injury and/or > > damage. But then... I haven't looked at the manual yet for this operation. > When I think about it though, it's a moot point. The car is at the > dealership, I'd have to tow it about two miles (assuming I shouldn't drive [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1.5 is what "the book" (what IS that book called that gives you guys the > expected time of repair?) calls for. 1.5 labor I said was on the high side. > I appreciate all the help. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Chilton, etc., or you are wasting your time and risking injury and/or > > damage. You should have no problem driving the car home a few miles from the dealership if you want to fix it yourself. The trans is locked in second gear so accelerate slowly and don't go excessivley fast. The input sensor failed on my sisters car a while back and she was at the dealership less than 30 minutes total to get it replaced. Steve B. > I've got the official factory service manual from Chrysler. Excellent. > Will the light automatically go out when the parts are replaced? I'm not certain -- the manual will contain this information. > If those parts are on the > outside, I have trouble understanding what risk of injury or damage might > occur. The reference was to the many errors and grossly incorrect procedures present in Haynes and Chilton manuals. > I assume the 1.5 is what "the book" (what IS that book called that gives > you guys the expected time of repair?) calls for. "Flat-rate manual". > I never thought I'd be pleased to hear my car needed repair but that's what > happens when you expect a $2500 bill and learn it's gonna' cost less than [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > readily inclined to slide under my car for very long. An Hour and a half may > be too long. Here's a How To linked from the 300M Enthusisats Club web site (300M has identical power train and chassis as Concorde) - tells you everything you need to know including diagram showing location of sensors: http://theswampbbs.com/300m/Servicestuff/speedsensor.htm You'll need the front end or the left front up on jack stands - you'll be reaching in to the center of the vehicle from the left side - you'll be on the ground on your back. To access one of the sensors, you may need either an open end or deep well (1"). Regular socket (1") will work for the other one (sensor is shorter, and less obstructions). 20 minute job. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > I never thought I'd be pleased to hear my car needed repair but that's what > happens when you expect a $2500 bill and learn it's gonna' cost less than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > transmission fluid heat but needs to shut off by a mechanic. In other words, > it goes on automatically but not off automatically. I believe what you saw was the "check engine" light which illuminates whenever a fairly serious trouble code is stored by the computer. Some more serious conditions will also cause the light to flash instead of being on steady. The light should go out after the computer detects the problem has not reoccurred after a period of time. If the dealer does the repair they may be able to reset it with their scan tool equipment. You can also view some trouble codes by turning the ignition ON three times repeatedly (don't start the engine) and watching the odometer display. This won't get all codes but it often can give you the more serious ones. Consult the FSM for their meanings. > I never thought I'd be pleased to hear my car needed repair but that's what > happens when you expect a $2500 bill and learn it's gonna' cost less than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > transmission fluid heat but needs to shut off by a mechanic. In other words, > it goes on automatically but not off automatically In you case it set due to a fault code with the output speed sensor, If you put the part on yourself it will see the problem is fixed and will turn it off. after a few few trips. Or a scan tool will reset it. > Q2) Are these parts that are readily accessible without tampering with the > transmission itself - like something bolted onto the housing or somewhere > else in the engine? On the left side outside of trans. > Q3) I have a manual and am mechanically inclined. I'm also retired and not > readily inclined to slide under my car for very long. An Hour and a half may > be too long. It wouldnt take an hour and a half, but you would have to raise at least the left side of the vehicle > >> While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my > >> speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Glenn Beasley > > Chrysler Tech Also have the dealer change the AT fluid since it got very hot. >> While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my >> speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Glenn Beasley > Chrysler Tech > While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my > speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > trans fluid and found nothing unusual. slight odor from the fluid but > nothing like burnt fluid. To expand on what others have said, a transmission speed sensor failed. There are two such sensors, one that measures input shaft speed and one that measures output shaft speed. In your case, we know that it was your output sensor that failed, because of the failed speedometer indication. Because the TCM (transmission control module) wasn't receiving normal readings, it went into a preprogrammed (limp home) mode that locks the transmission in 2nd gear, hence your high tachometer reading. This protects the transmission and allows you to still drive, all though with great care and at slow speed. These sensors are known to fail for some reason. I'm not sure if newer sensors will last longer, or if sensors manufactured before some data are not prone to failure. However they are readily available (many models use the same sensors and dealers tend to keep a bunch in their stock) and not excessively expensive. It is an easy do it yourself repair with the caveat that you need to be able to get under the car (sensors are accessed from under the transmission on the right (driver) side and a factory service manual is important. You may wish to replace the nearby input sensor too, although I don't have any evidence to suggest that the new sensor would be any better. The input and output sensors have different part numbers with a slightly different socket to prevent them from being reversed. These are hall effect sensors. > While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my > speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > some sort? And what's my likelihood of getting Chrysler to pick up at least > half the tab? Sounds like a speed sensor shouldn't be too big of a bill. Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed me for 2 hours labor. Told me there was no need to worry about the transmission fluid; new, improved and designed to withstand the temperatures of hell. They also did a safety bulletin repair for two seat bolts so they got paid by Chrysler for that as well. Did I get rooked? >> While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my >> speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> > Sounds like a speed sensor shouldn't be too big of a bill. > Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed me for > 2 hours labor. Told me there was no need to worry about the transmission [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >> > > Sounds like a speed sensor shouldn't be too big of a bill. Yup a little steep with the labor >>Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed me > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>Did I get rooked? > Yup a little steep with the labor Yeah - I'd like to get paid for 2 hours for 30 minutes work. Where do I sign up! I'd at least tell them to knock it back to book rate - and ask them to explain why they take that long to do a 30 minute job. You really should change the fluid and filter regardless of what they say. Every 80k miles would be reasonable. DIY for cost of fluid and filter and 2 hours time, and get a thorough changeout of fluid in the bargain - not less than half from a pan drop. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') I have 4 of these same/very similar Chrysler electronic transmissions in a 1991 Mitsubishi 300GT (130K miles) 1996 Eagle Vision (75K miles) , 1999 T&C Minivan (64K miles), and 2001 Dodge Intrepid (40K miles). I have dropped the pans and changed all these vehicles transmission fluid (use the correct ATF+3/4 fluid) and filter on 30-36K mile intervals and all are still performing just like when they were new. I am still amazed at the shift quality in the 14.5 year old 3000GT every time I drive it! I know that dropping the pan does not get all the fluid, but believe that this approach is much better than the "power flush" recommended at the dealer. I personally have seen the gunk in the trans pan and the filings on the magnet and know these will not come out using the power flush method. I also believe in replacing the filter since it can only clog and restrict fluid pressure over time. With regard to the speed sensors, I doubt both were actually defective. From what you had described, I would have guessed the output sensor was bad. I've replaced three of these over the years on the vehicles listed above and previous Chryslers as well. About two years back the part cost me about $25 or so dollars at the local dealer. Access was a breeze if you can get under the vehicle and it took about 10 minutes to remove the electrical connector , unscrew the part using a simple wrench and then screw in the replacement and re-connect the connector. I personally do not see the value in the price you paid, but then again, you might not have the tools or the inclination so $200 to fix it may well be worth it to you. Bob > >>Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed me > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x') There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission fluid here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change is necessary. The dealer claims - after checking the fluid - no change is necessary. I can understand the position one might take if they have changed fluid over the years with no incidence of trans failure. However, that fact alone - particularly in view of recommendation from the manufacture NOT to change - doesn't serve as proof that changing fluid prevents failure. The same results may have occurred without the changes. On the other hand, it may be like chicken soup as a remedy for the common; it can't hurt. That being the case... Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself, check the magnet, and replace the filter? Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't think I did for the '95 Concorde I had) Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan and drained? (Assuming the pan is the only thing I could drop reasonably) >I have 4 of these same/very similar Chrysler electronic transmissions in a > 1991 Mitsubishi 300GT (130K miles) 1996 Eagle Vision (75K miles) , 1999 [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >> adddress with the letter 'x') > There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission fluid > here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change > is necessary. The manual has claimed "No fluid change is necessary" for decades now. It was OK to follow this suggestion in the days of the overengineered, bulletproof Torqueflite transmissions. With the electronic transmissions, it's difficult to change the fluid often enough. > I can understand the position one might take if they have changed fluid > over the years with no incidence of trans failure. However, that fact > alone - particularly in view of recommendation from the manufacture NOT > to change - doesn't serve as proof that changing fluid prevents failure. > The same results may have occurred without the changes. How lucky do you feel? Are you comfortable gambling the $2500 (plus or minus) repair cost on this academic bit of sophistry? > Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself, > check the magnet, and replace the filter? You don't, if that's the procedure you use. But that's OK, 'cause you don't have to. The idea is fluid replenishment. > Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't think > I did for the '95 Concorde I had) No. > Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan and > drained? Don't worry about it, see Q3. My answers to your questions are embedded below. Bob > There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission fluid > here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change > is necessary. The dealer claims - after checking the fluid - no change is > necessary. This is indeed terue, but the early Chrysler FWD electronic transmissions experiencesd a lot of early failures and word of mouth in this group seemed to confirm that frequent changes coupled with additional fluid coolers helped improve the life. I still follow this even though the product has obviously been improved. > I can understand the position one might take if they have changed fluid over > the years with no incidence of trans failure. However, that fact alone - > particularly in view of recommendation from the manufacture NOT to change - > doesn't serve as proof that changing fluid prevents failure. The same > results may have occurred without the changes. Again, absolutely true. My philosphy has always been to do PREVENTIVE maintenance where ever possible. You and everyone else are free to do whatever you like. > On the other hand, it may be like chicken soup as a remedy for the common; > it can't hurt. That being the case... Again, I agree. It can't hurt if done right. > Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself, > check the magnet, and replace the filter? I do not get all the fluid out. I just get what I can and let it drain overnight. I figure I get 5-6 quarts each time which is roughly speaking about half. > Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't think > I did for the '95 Concorde I had) No special tools needed: A 3/8" ratchet and appropriate metric socket, some extenders, possibly a swivel if there is a bracket in the way (I do not think there was one, but each vehicle was different), a gasket scraper or wire brush, some brake cleaner and a torque wrench to re-tighten the bolts. > Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan and > drained? (Assuming the pan is the only thing I could drop reasonably) See comment above. I do this to get the gunk out of the pan as there is always residue there which I am assuming comes from the clutch material. I also do this to change the filter as well. This just seems like good practice to me as I would never change engine oil and leave in a dirty filter even though this is what the OM says to do every 7500 miles. (I change engine oil and filter religiously at 3K miles and have never had an engine failure of any kind in over 30 years of driving.) > There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission fluid > here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change > is necessary. The dealer claims - after checking the fluid - no change is > necessary. That may be true. However, I have read on forums of DC dealers refusing to honor a warranty repair on a tranny because the fluid was not changed. When the customer complained that their driving meets the Schedule A conditions, the dealer claimed that they refuse to recognize that Schedule A driving is possible and that they consider Schedule B the only valid schedule - claim denied. > ...Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself, > check the magnet, and replace the filter? Glad you asked. I posted this info. recently in another thread: "See this thread on the 300M Enthusiasts forum to see how it's done (300M and Concorde power trains and chassis are identical - in fact, the photos in my post in that thread show where I spliced the cooler return line on my Concorde for changing out the tranny fluid): http://300mclub.100megs42.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6295&highlight=return+fluid". Now - truth is, it is a dilution process, so it will never be 100% fluid exchange. But if you use, say, 12 quarts of fluid in the flush, the replacement will be 95+% complete (vs. 40% of a simple pan drop and add fluid). > Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't think > I did for the '95 Concorde I had) > > Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan and > drained? (Assuming the pan is the only thing I could drop reasonably) System holds slightly less than 10 qts. Dropping the pan ends up "wasting" 4 to 4-1/2 qts. You do the math. 8^) Another method that is between the method that I posted above and simply dropping the pan as far as effectiveness of fluid exchange is to drop the pan (replace filter), close it up , fill with new fluid, drive for a few miles, drop pan again, close up, fill with fresh fluid. WAG - about 70 to 75% effective exchange of old/new fluid. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > ...I know that > dropping the pan does not get all the fluid, but believe that this approach > is much better than the "power flush" recommended at the dealer. I > personally have seen the gunk in the trans pan and the filings on the magnet > and know these will not come out using the power flush method... Correct. That's the beauty of the DIY non-power flush method. Combined with first dropping the pan to replace the filter, you then use the tranny's own pump to pump the fluid at normal rates out of the cooler return line. You get a 95+% fluid changeout, cleaned pan and magnet, new filter, and non of the risks of the power flush at minimum cost. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') Out of curiosity, I phoned another large Chrysler dealer to get an estimate of this repair. $249! If the part costs $65 and they billed by "the book", that means labor runs $122.66 and hour. Can this be right? Q1) Is there a book available at the library - or on line - that will give standard time for all repair jobs? I think it would be wise to be armed with this information before agreeing to a repair... not that I'm complaining about mine. I may have been clipped a little but the dealership has been fair with me in the past. And... if his competitor is any guide, my dealer actually gave me "a break". Q2) What is the going hourly rate for a Chrysler dealership repair these days? >>>Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed me >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x') > Out of curiosity, I phoned another large Chrysler dealer to get an estimate > of this repair. $249! If the part costs $65 and they billed by "the book", > that means labor runs $122.66 and hour. Can this be right? Only if one makes certain assumptions and/or jumps to conclusions. > Q1) Is there a book available at the library - or on line - that will give > standard time for all repair jobs? That would be up to an individual library system. On line, I doubt it. > I think it would be wise to be armed with this information before agreeing > to a repair... not that I'm complaining about mine. I may have been clipped > a little but the dealership has been fair with me in the past. And... if his > competitor is any guide, my dealer actually gave me "a break". The dealer charged exactly what the labor guide calls for. > Q2) What is the going hourly rate for a Chrysler dealership repair these > days? Varies by region. > Out of curiosity, I phoned another large Chrysler dealer to get an estimate > of this repair. $249! If the part costs $65 and they billed by "the book", [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > > adddress with the letter 'x') The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, In order to verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the connectors to perform the test, therefore half the work was already done. The book that AArcuda is referring too normally says test and replace, .5 for each sensor. He would be charging you an overlapping time of 1.0 hr. ( 1.5 is an average labor price and as I said on the high side) Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech > The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, In order to > verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the > connectors to perform the test... Not true. The fact that, along with the limp mode, the speedometer was not working tells you with a fair degree of certainty that the output sensor was bad. I get the impression from some people that some dealers would not do certain work, like replace a sensor, without doing and charging for a diagnostic. Out of curiosity, if I walked into your dealership and said "I am pretty certain that my output sensor is bad. If I agree to pay your price for replacing the sensor and accept the possibility that that isn't the problem, will you replace the output sensor without charging me for a diagnostic test?" would they do that? Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > > The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, In order to > > verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the > > connectors to perform the test... > > Not true. whats not true? The fact that, along with the limp mode, the speedometer was > not working tells you with a fair degree of certainty that the output > sensor was bad. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > isn't the problem, will you replace the output sensor without charging > me for a diagnostic test?" would they do that? And yes if the cust only wanted the part we would have to install the part. The same as nrake work, if the cust doesnt want the rotors turned, we wont machine the rotors, There will be notes on the owners RO > Bill Putney > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x') >>>The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, In order to >>>verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > whats not true? Read the very next sentence I wrote. You said that to verify which part (I assume you mean input vs. output sensor), you have to run a diagnostic. My very next sentence (still below) says that the fact that the speeodmeter doesn't work when it goes into limp mode tells you that it's the output sensor. If the customer already told you that, then you are ripping him off by charging him to re-discover what he already told you that completely diagnoses it for you. > The fact that, along with the limp mode, the speedometer was > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > machine the rotors, > There will be notes on the owners RO Well good. So why do you perform and charge for a diagnosis when the customer already told you the work he wanted done and the diagnosis won't affect the outcome? That's like going to a doctor with a cut on your finger, and he won't sew it up until he takes photos of the cut and sends it off to a specialist to verify that it is indeed cut and that it needs to be sewn up. For goodness sake - sew it up and quit gouging the customer with bogus charges. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > >>>The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, In order to > >>>verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the speeodmeter doesn't work when it goes into limp mode tells you that > it's the output sensor. If the customer already told you that, then you > are ripping him off by charging him to re-discover what he already told > you that completely diagnoses it for you. Ripping him off??? or verifying the repair?? I mean you still have the 6 step trouble shoot even if we know what the problem is. > > The fact that, along with the limp mode, the speedometer was > > > >>not working tells you with a fair degree of certainty that the output > >>sensor was bad. That is true, for me and you, we know what is bad, but for Joe blow or Aarcuda down the street, he may not know that, Also just because the customer says his speedo doesnt work doesnt mean that there may be something else wrong, maybe another fault, We at least want to check the system with the DRB and then clear the codes and test drive it. The labor op for the sensor is .2 the diagnostic time is .6. > >>I get the impression from some people that some dealers would not do > >>certain work, like replace a sensor, without doing and charging for a [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x') > > Well good. So why do you perform and charge for a diagnosis when the > > customer already told you the work he wanted done and the diagnosis [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > Bill Putney if a person comes to my dealership and says "my output speed sensor is bad" my reply is if you would like for me to replace the sensor and not do any diagnosis, I would be proud to perform the repair BUT I cannot guarantee that will fix your issue without proper diagnosis. >>>Well good. So why do you perform and charge for a diagnosis when the >>>customer already told you the work he wanted done and the diagnosis [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > diagnosis, I would be proud to perform the repair BUT I cannot guarantee > that will fix your issue without proper diagnosis. And that would be an acceptable answer. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, Is that what they would have paid you Glenn, one hour? > In order to > verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the > connectors to perform the test, therefore half the work was already done. Misleading at best. There is more to the diagnostic than just checking the sensor. > The book that AArcuda is referring too normally says test and replace, .5 > for each sensor. He would be charging you an overlapping time of 1.0 hr. > ( 1.5 is an average labor price and as I said on the high side) Really? Did you check? Which labor guide did I use? Chiltons? Mitchell? Real Time? I suspect that you're BSing since that is not what the labor time guide describes. > > The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > for each sensor. He would be charging you an overlapping time of 1.0 hr. > > ( 1.5 is an average labor price and as I said on the high side) I wonder if you read the word normally in this statement? > Really? > Did you check? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I suspect that you're BSing since that is not what the labor time > guide describes. > I wonder if you read the word normally in this statement? Yes I did. Your use of the word "normally" suggests that on one day the page in the labor guide says one thing and on another day, it says something else. LOL > > I wonder if you read the word normally in this statement? > > Yes I did. Your use of the word "normally" suggests that on one > day the page in the labor guide says one thing and on another > day, it says something else. > LOL > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > day the page in the labor guide says one thing and on another > > day, it says something else. Well, does it or doesn't it? > > LOL > > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Well, does it or doesn't it? Once again, My humble apologies, I forget that you have no common sense and I have to spell things out., I will go out and find the stick... But may I ask you this? where can I find one of the magical books!!!! > > > > Yes I did. Your use of the word "normally" suggests that on one > > > > day the page in the labor guide says one thing and on another [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have to spell things out., I will go out and find the stick... But may I > ask you this? where can I find one of the magical books!!!! Still, you haven't answered the question. -DO- the procedures change from day to day? If so, your work habits are inconsistent and undisciplined. If not, then you are merely BSing your way through this. The stick is up your a.s where you left it. The "magical" book is available from Mitchell; http://buymitchell1.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product _Code=MLE05&Category_Code=ESTMAN Or, you can buy one from Real Time; http://www.laborguide.net/ And there is always Chilton's; http://www.chiltonsonline.com/ Notice that Chilton's also shows a Timing Belt manual, it probably only shows how to replace them, not how to diagnose when one has jumped the sprockets, so it won't help you much. Chilton's isn't that great. Larry Behold Beware Believe | > > > > Yes I did. Your use of the word "normally" suggests that on one | > > > > day the page in the labor guide says one thing and on another [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] | probably only shows how to replace them, not how to diagnose when | one has jumped the sprockets, so it won't help you much. > Chilton's isn't that great. The Chilton Labor Manual is not the same as the Harry Homeowner screw-it-yerself guides from the same publisher. > Out of curiosity, I phoned another large Chrysler dealer to get an estimate > of this repair. $249! If the part costs $65 and they billed by "the book", > that means labor runs $122.66 and hour. Can this be right? $65 is about what you can get *both* sensors (combined) for, every day, all over the place. Thanks for posting all this stuff. It reminds me of a big part of why I do as much of my own work as possible. > I think it would be wise to be armed with this information before agreeing > to a repair... not that I'm complaining about mine. I may have been clipped > a little but the dealership has been fair with me in the past. And... if his > competitor is any guide, my dealer actually gave me "a break". Yeah - "I like *this* mugger over here better than that one over there because this one only took my cash and not my credit cards too. I really respect him because when he stabbed me, he didn't twist the knife." 8^) > Q2) What is the going hourly rate for a Chrysler dealership repair these > days? Apparently as much as they want it to be. Let's see - 30 minutes work for $250 - I think that works out to about $500/hr. 8^) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed me for > 2 hours labor. Told me there was no need to worry about the transmission [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Did I get rooked? Nope. Labor time is; diagnose 1.0 hrs replace input speed sensor .5 hrs replace output speed sensor .5 hrs Just for the heck of it, I've drafted a letter to Chrysler with most of the comments made here (no names) concerning fluid change. I'm curious to see what Chrysler says. When I hear from them, I'll post the results. Thanks to all of you for the help and comments. I picked up a few pointers. >> Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed me >> for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > replace input speed sensor .5 hrs > replace output speed sensor .5 hrs > Just for the heck of it, I've drafted a letter to Chrysler with most of the > comments made here (no names) concerning fluid change. I'm curious to see [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > replace input speed sensor .5 hrs > > replace output speed sensor .5 hrs Good luck in getting a reply back from them Oh I'll get one... guaranteed. I asked for the warranty service record on the '95 Concorde I bought used and they refused to give it to me saying it was "confidential" between them and the original customer. I gave them my explanation of why it was public record and they stuck to their guns. I wrote my Senator (Ohio) and gave my side of the argument. The file arrived about three weeks later. I'll get an answer. What I'm concerned about is getting a wishy-washy answer and that is something I can't fight successfully. "Gotta see the car"... "Each case is different." And they successfully skit the issue. We'll see what happens. >> Just for the heck of it, I've drafted a letter to Chrysler with most of > the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> > Good luck in getting a reply back from them >>Just for the heck of it, I've drafted a letter to Chrysler with most of > > the > >>comments made here (no names) concerning fluid change. I'm curious to see >>what Chrysler says. When I hear from them, I'll post the results. Let me play Karnac the Magnificent, and I'll predict the reply: --- Dear Mr. Gregory, Thank you for your letter concerning your DaimlerChrysler product. We appreciate your business and your concerns are important to us. Regarding your questions about transmission fluid change intervals, please refer to your owners manual. Follow the service schedule that corresponds to the way you use your DaimlerChrysler Vehicle. Please do not hesitate to contact us if we may be of help in the future. --- The problem is that your letter will go to some MBA/Marketing type, not to an engineer. Its that way at all car companies, which is why the rest of us hang out here to exchange more useful information. Although, I DID once mention on a new vehicle survey that my '73 Plymouth had over 380,000 miles (at the time, now over 430,000 miles) and that I expected my wife's (then nearly new, now 220,000 miles) 93 Vision to be at least that good or I'd be really disappointed. They sent me a nice cast aluminum "Chrysler 100,000 mile club" license plate frame. So at least they're good for something, although they should have given me 3.8 "100,000 mile" license plate frames :-p > Let me play Karnac the Magnificent, and I'll predict the reply: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > --- Yep. It's a variation on what you get if you write to complain about the specific implementation of any aspect of the vehicle: Thank you for your letter concerning your <automaker> product. We appreciate your business and your concerns are important to us. Regarding your questions about <poor headlamp performance, turn signals, seat belts, gas filler door sticking in cold weather, cupholder size, whatever>: Please be advised that all <automaker> products, including your vehicle, comply in full with all applicable Federal standards. Please do not hesitate to contact us if we may be of help in the future. Sincerely, Misti Debbi Blondi, <automaker> Customer Relations Well... perhaps it will come to pass as you suggest, however, I've had considerable success in such maters by sending them to an individual. And that individual has to be an executive. Executives don't want to see or hear about their names being associated with negative press (the net). Often - usually very large corporations - their executive assistants write back with a letter containing some of what you suggest but nearly always with the name of someone they're giving it; that the old fly paper trap. Got it, get rid of it, still got it, get rid of it.... it goes in circles. They want to get rid of the piece of paper in their hand but the damn thing has their name on it. What to do? "Give it to Mikey. He'll eat it!" So Mikey get's it. Sooner or later it get low enough in the chain to where it lands on someone's desk who really understand the issues and has the capability of addressing them; usually an engineer or project manager. Because it now has HIS/HER name on it... and it came from above ... sent by someone "brave" enough to write the top brass... hey, man... better answer this so it stops flying around. "No on else ta' give it to!" It starts with something like this: Dear Mr. Zetsche: I realize this is misdirected but I want to make sure I receive a definitive response to the questions I ask. As a man in charge of producing a great car, I 'm sure you recognize the importance of solid communication with the consumers who buy those cars and keep those plants of yours running as well as they do; we're a fickle lot. So please see that his/her gets placed into the hands of a capable individual who can answer these questions. But... maybe I'll strike out. But again... maybe not. We'll see. >> Let me play Karnac the Magnificent, and I'll predict the reply: >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Misti Debbi Blondi, > <automaker> Customer Relations > Dear Mr. Zetsche: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But... maybe I'll strike out. You certainly will with that sloppy grammar and syntax. Your "pearls" will be right there swirling among all the other grammatical errors, Daniel. "The manual has claimed "No fluid change is necessary" for decades now. It was OK to follow this suggestion in the days of the overengineered, bulletproof Torqueflite transmissions. With the electronic transmissions, it's difficult to change the fluid often enough." Indeed! :-) >> Dear Mr. Zetsche: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > You certainly will with that sloppy grammar and syntax. > Your "pearls" will be right there swirling among all the other > grammatical errors, Daniel. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bulletproof Torqueflite transmissions. With the electronic > transmissions, it's difficult to change the fluid often enough." Alright, I'll bite. What grammatical errors do you think you see? Aw, Daniel. You don't REALLY wanna' do this do ya'? Alright. Here's a taste: 1) ".manual has claimed.." Manuals claim nothing; people and institutions represented as "legal entities" claim things. Manuals are inanimate objects. 2) " .for decades now." Which is it "decades" . or "now"? "Now" not needed; adds nothing. 3) "..this suggestion". The manual is not a compilation of "suggestions". A manual is a set of instructions. 4) ".change the fluid often enough". Awkward. "Enough"? There's something called "too much" and "too little"? By what standard? You? The manual? Not clear. Or did you mean something to the effect that "it's difficult to know just when to change the fluid."? That's enough. I quite. You're fine. J >> Your "pearls" will be right there swirling among all the other >> grammatical errors, Daniel. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Alright, I'll bite. What grammatical errors do you think you see? > Aw, Daniel. You don't REALLY wanna' do this do ya'? Alright. Here's a taste: > 1) ".manual has claimed.." Manuals claim nothing; people and > institutions represented as "legal entities" claim things. Manuals are > inanimate objects. That's not a grammatical error, it's sophistry on your part. No points. > 2) " .for decades now." Which is it "decades" . or "now"? "Now" not > needed; adds nothing. The "now" does border on being redundant, but "For decades now", "for years now", etc. is perfectly acceptable usage. Zero points. > 3) "..this suggestion". The manual is not a compilation of > "suggestions". A manual is a set of instructions. Sophistry. Zero points. > 4) ".change the fluid often enough". Awkward. "It is difficult to change the fluid often enough" is perfectly clear and not at all awkward. Zero points. > That's enough. I quite. You *what*, now? Hardly sophistry... and you know it with such a weak defense. But definitely a Sisyphean exercise to make you see otherwise. I saw it coming. That's why I said "I quite". Grammar AND syntax errors, Daniel. Your "Pearls." Lets get back to mechanics. Your no English teacher... and that's OK. >> Aw, Daniel. You don't REALLY wanna' do this do ya'? Alright. Here's a >> taste: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > You *what*, now? > Hardly sophistry... and you know it with such a weak defense. > But definitely a Sisyphean exercise to make you see otherwise. I saw it > coming. That's why I said "I quite". > Grammar AND syntax errors, Daniel. Your "Pearls." Lets get back to > mechanics. Your no English teacher... and that's OK. Wow! I didn't know we were being graded on our posts,and to think I thought I was seeing "pearls" of knowledge.I guess I better find a group that doesn't have such a strict instructor.I quite too! :-) (smile) I didn't know I was bein' graded either. I was just tryin' ta' find out a few things about my transmission then found myself in an English class.Oh well. Ya' lives yer life an' hope fer the best. >> Hardly sophistry... and you know it with such a weak defense. >> But definitely a Sisyphean exercise to make you see otherwise. I saw it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I was seeing "pearls" of knowledge.I guess I better find a group that > doesn't have such a strict instructor.I quite too! > Hardly sophistry... and you know it with such a weak defense. > But definitely a Sisyphean exercise to make you see otherwise. I saw it > coming. That's why I said "I quite". > Grammar AND syntax errors, Daniel. Your "Pearls." Lets get back to > mechanics. Your no English teacher... and that's OK. Hmmm - "...Your no English teacher...". A grammatical error, or more master-baiting? Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') What's the point? An "executive" doesn't know dick about transmissions unless he came up through engineering, in which case he probably knows more detailed info about a 1980 Torqueflite 904 than about the current products. He's just going to punt it off to a flunkie, who may or may not bump in to the right engineer who knows the real answer. Either way, you'll get a "definitive" answer, but the odds of it being right are about 50/50. In this case, the sensible thing to do is what everyone who is familiar with these transmissions recommends: follow the "severe usage" schedule. Your bases are covered that way. > Well... perhaps it will come to pass as you suggest, however, I've had > considerable success in such maters by sending them to an individual. And [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >>Misti Debbi Blondi, >><automaker> Customer Relations That's exactly what I plan to do unless I get an answer form Chrysler engineering telling me it isn't necessary. > What's the point? An "executive" doesn't know dick about transmissions > unless he came up through engineering, in which case he probably knows [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] >>>Misti Debbi Blondi, >>><automaker> Customer Relations > That's exactly what I plan to do unless I get an answer form Chrysler > engineering telling me it isn't necessary. You really like to do things the hard way, eh? I don't relish the thought, but often do find myself pushing on a rope. >> That's exactly what I plan to do unless I get an answer form Chrysler >> engineering telling me it isn't necessary. > > You really like to do things the hard way, eh? > While cruising between 65 and 70 on the throughway this evening, my > speedometer suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) dropped to zero. I felt a > slight shift or hesitation and began looking at gages, Output speed sensor died or connection came loose. > I pulled out of the station and chose to drive side roads rather than turn > back on the throughway; a wise decision. The speedometer continued to stay > at zero and - although I must have been traveling no more than 35 to 40 > miles an hour, the RPMs exceeded 2000; Without a valid output speed reading, the transmission controller assumes that the transmission is slipping and reverts to "limp" mode- you have 2nd gear and reverse, nothing else. as though I were stuck in first gear. Second gear, actually. . Now I sit here > shuddering about the call I expect Monday morning;$$$$. Sensors are cheap. Probably $30 or so for the part, plus installation. > What are likely root causes of this problem? My '95 Concorde had the > transmission replaced at 25000. I was "assured" the trans problems were > corrected. Now another Concorde five years younger - with only 55000 - > starts sputtering in the drive chain. What the hell's the mater with these > components? Nothing inherent. Replace the sensor and get on with life. |
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