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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / March 20061996 Dodge Grand Caravan won't start or barely runs
My 1996 Grand Caravan (3.3L) stalled last week at a light. It does that often, but this time it was difficult to get it restarted. It finally started and off I went. About a mile later, it stalled again, this time it wouldn't restart. I left the van and came back to it periodically to try to get it started again, but with no luck. I got it towed home over the weekend and went to try to start it. It took about 20 minutes (and a constant jump from my wife's Quest), but I finally managed to get it to start, but it would only idle at about 500RPM and would stay running for about a minute on average, with the longest being about 5 minutes. If I even so much as breathe on the accellerator, the car dies and I have to start it again. My first thought was the fuel pump's dead, but getting the car to run (barely) all but ruled it out. I thought that maybe the filter needs to be changed, which could be the case seeing as how it's never been changed since I got the van (90K miles, it now has 126K). Someone suggested the EGR or fuel pressure regulator. Any thoughts on what this could be? I have no problems doing the work myself (I've replaced the water pump, front and passenger side motor mounts, and several hoses) so I kinda just need to be led in the right direction and I'll take it from there. I'm not sure from your description what the problem is with your van not starting, but the fact that it idled rough and then died while idling at a stop light tells me it probably needed a good and thorough throttle body cleaning. Before doing anything, you should check to see if there are any stored engine diagnostic codes to help point you to a possible cause. On the fuel filter, just replace it as it is long overdue and could be causing fuel starvation or already caused permanent damage to the fuel pump. Also add a bottle of good fuel injector cleaner, like DuPont Techron, to the gas tank too since your injectors could be badly clogged from the old filter as well. Also, you do not say when your 3.3 was last properly tuned. Symptoms you describe could be related to fouled plugs or bad ignition wires. Bottom line is that I'd recommend you start with these above simple actions first so that you know where you stand. It might be the fuel pump has gone bad. If so, then a pressure test on the fuel rail will reveal this to be the case. Bob > My 1996 Grand Caravan (3.3L) stalled last week at a light. It does that > often, but this time it was difficult to get it restarted. It finally > started and off I went. About a mile later, it stalled again, this time > it wouldn't restart. I haven't given it a tune up at all. I did buy new plugs, air filter, and oil filter the day before this happened figuring that I had put it off long enough. I'll grab wires today and see if this helps at all. BTW, how do I clean the throttle body? > My first thought was the fuel pump's dead, but getting the car to run > (barely) all but ruled it out. I think it probably IS the fuel pump. They don't always fail completely, and may continue to try to pump. Go down to Autozone, or equivalent, and rent or borrow a fuel pump pressure gauge. Hook up at the fuel rail and monitor the pressure as you try to start the vehicle. The fuel pump should run the first 2 seconds when the key goes to "on" and give you approx. 45psi. Then when the engine starts (if it does) it should continue to give a steady 45 - 48psi. My bet is that your not getting much if any volume or pressure. I had a similar problem but mine is old spark plug wires. the one between the distributor and the ignition coil was bad. you can eliminate the fule problem by spraying carb cleaner in tothe intake and see if it runs that way. ifnot you have a spark problem... I had the same thing happen to my 1996 -- it would stall and then after wating awhile run just fine. It was the fuel pump. Tim > My 1996 Grand Caravan (3.3L) stalled last week at a light. It does that > often, but this time it was difficult to get it restarted. It finally [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > so I kinda just need to be led in the right direction and I'll take it > from there. Just out of curiousity, it is my understanding that the fuel pump is actually in the fuel tank. Does the design allow for the pump itself to be replaced? or are you stuck replacing the tank/pump as an assembly? What were the approximate costs? (I have a 94 GC w/3.3l) >I had the same thing happen to my 1996 -- it would stall and then after >wating awhile run just fine. It was the fuel pump. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> so I kinda just need to be led in the right direction and I'll take it >> from there. > Just out of curiousity, it is my understanding that the fuel pump is > actually in the fuel tank. Does the design allow for the pump itself > to be replaced? yes or are you stuck replacing the tank/pump as an > assembly? no > What were the approximate costs? (I have a 94 GC w/3.3l) I think pumps are around $100-200. For most people the labor is the expensive part. Hopefully your fuel tank is nearly empty. For the future, note that the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline. If you make a point of refilling your gas tank when the level hits the 1/4 mark instead of letting it draw all the way down, the fuel pump will last a lot longer. Ted that depends if your going to do the work or not. Ted > >I had the same thing happen to my 1996 -- it would stall and then after > >wating awhile run just fine. It was the fuel pump. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >> so I kinda just need to be led in the right direction and I'll take it > >> from there. > ...For the future, note that the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline. > If you make a point of refilling your gas tank when the level > hits the 1/4 mark instead of letting it draw all the way down, > the fuel pump will last a lot longer. I believe that to be a myth. The overwhelmingly greatest amount of cooling is from the continual flow of the fuel *thru* the pump (bathes the armature, commutator, brushes, bearings/bushingds, etc.). The cooling effect of mostly stagnant fuel around the envelope of the pump (or its absence) is going to have little effect on those ciritical internal parts. There might be some small thermal effect on the magnets. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >> ...For the future, note that the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline. >> If you make a point of refilling your gas tank when the level [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >address with the letter 'x') Myth or not, I HATE IT when my tank gets to less than 1/2 a tank. When I was a child, my mom had a Volkswagen Square Back. The gas gauge on this car was NOT linear, it was exponential! So it looked like it was "full" for a long time. THEN, the needle would drop like a rock! Worse than that, there was no "E" for Emplty, there was an "R" and a little warning flag to signify "RESERVE". You could travel around 40 miles on the "Reserve". The problem is that mom would jump into the car day after day and say "Oh, I'm on reserve, no problem!". We would often run out of gas and get stuck. Henceforth I have an aversion to letting my tank get "low". I always feel like a car runs better on a full tank as well (personal superstition ;). As well, I find that the gas gauge on my GC does pretty mych the same thing. It will stay "full" for a long time. But once is starts to drop, it drops very quickly. So I avoid any problems and just fill up before it gets below 1/2 - unless I am on a long trip on a freeway. Then I will look for a fill as I cross 1/4. > > ...For the future, note that the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline. > > If you make a point of refilling your gas tank when the level [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (or its absence) is going to have little effect on those ciritical > internal parts. There might be some small thermal effect on the magnets. That could be true, but one other thing that might be an issue is if the pump is fully submerged, it's fully primed when it starts. If it's not submerged or partly submerged, with just the pickup tube in the fuel, then when the engine is started the pump has no fuel in the internal parts and pumps air for a second or so. Whether this introduces significant wear I don't know, I've never had an in-tank fuel pump fail and so have never taken one apart to see what part does the failing. Ted >> > ...For the future, note that the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline. >> > If you make a point of refilling your gas tank when the level [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Ted What does the failing is usually the brushes wear out. An easy way to tell the condition of the pump if you have the tools is to view the current draw pattern on an oscilloscope. If the pattern is a smooth ripple from the brushes crossing the comutator segment gaps all is usually OK. If you see regular current spikes then there is something shorting two adjacent bars together and if you see either random or regular dips or dropouts the brushes are almost worn out and all it takes is for the rotor to stop at a spot where they lose contact when you shut off the engine to leave you stranded. Note that when the brushes are no longer making constant contact that the pump motor will also slow down reducing the available volume of fuel for hard accelleration etc. >>>...For the future, note that the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline. >>>If you make a point of refilling your gas tank when the level [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > never had an in-tank fuel pump fail and so have never taken one apart to > see what part does the failing. No - there is a check valve in line with the pump - often built into the pump itself. That keeps a column of fluid in the system - pump doesn't run dry. Now - sometimes, if a car is hard to start in the morning (i.e., typically takes two tries to start it), it's either because one or more injectors are leaky (emptying out the fuel rail), or the check valve at the pump is leaky - allowing the initial run-dry situation that you mention. the two starts allows the intial second or so of pump run time to re-fill/pressurize the system, and the engine starts on the 2nd or 3rd try. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') According to a few repair shops, the problem was the fuel pump. They all wanted $500+ to replace it with the most expensive being $585 to replace the pump and filter. I did the job myself with hand tools and a couple of jacks. $129 for the pump, $19 for the filter. The biggest problem with doing it was putting the gas tank, with about 5 gallons of fuel in it, back into place. The actual job of lowering the tank, disconnecting all of the hoses, and getting the pump out wasn't that bad. I started at 8am and had that part done by 11am. The hard part was putting it back up with the tools I had. If I had the proper tools, and empty tank, and a lift, this would have been a 2 hour job. I have to wonder what the hell the shops were going to charge me for. > According to a few repair shops, the problem was the fuel pump. They > all wanted $500+ to replace it with the most expensive being $585 to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > been a 2 hour job. I have to wonder what the hell the shops were going > to charge me for. Maybe they were going to charge you that because they have to pay for those proper tools!!!! Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech > According to a few repair shops, the problem was the fuel pump. They > all wanted $500+ to replace it with the most expensive being $585 to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > been a 2 hour job. I have to wonder what the hell the shops were going > to charge me for. Do you think they get those proper tools for free? Matt The only proper tool they would have had was a hydraulic lift (and possibly a strap wrench). Two of the shops even told me that they would use a hammer and chisel to get the lock nut over the pump off. Oh, and a mechanical siphon to get the gas out of my tank. Other than that, everything unbolts with simple sockets. With labor running at about $50-$60 and hour, a two hour job should have run me a maximum of $120, not $300+. |
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