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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / October 2007Replaced radiator, now it wont start :(
So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. fluid slowly dripping out, I fixed it and when I went to restart the car it wont, just a single click. I checked the oil, its okay but it still wont start, I'm currently taking the battery out to let the car discharge for a bit before I start again.. any suggestions? > So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running > fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > any suggestions? Hi... A couple, if I may - though be forewarned that I'm no mechanic. Put the battery back, try to start it again. If just a single click, then turn on the dome lights, try to crank it again. Do the dome lights remain unaffected, or do they dim noticeably, or do they go out completely? If the courtesy lights remain unaffected, then did you happen to do the same real dumb thing that I once did? Leave one of the many connections to the battery off? :) If you didn't, then disassemble and clean with a bit of sandpaper all the connections at the battery. On the other hand, if the dome lights go out completely, then charge the battery. Take care. Ken > > So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running > > fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Ken I reconnected the battery and the dome lights stayed on with barely even a dim > So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running > fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > any suggestions? If it's not a poor electrical connection as others have suggested, then the starter solenoid contacts may be worn out. The Denso/Nippondenso starters that Chrysler uses in a lot of its vehicles is known for this problem after some age/wear (starter operation becomes intermittent due to worn solenoid contacts). If this is the problem, then it's just coincidence that it happened when you replaced the radiator. Here's a good source for new solenoid contacts and plunger: http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=VLP&MfrPartNumber=ND34SOL $13 plus shipping. I had to put a set in my '98 Concorde about a month ago - same car and engine as yours. (www.partsamerica is the parent company for regional parts stores Advance, Schucks, Kragen, Checker, and Murray's. Be aware though that the local stores don't stock and can't order this particular part (at least not my local Advance store) - you have to order off the partsamerica web site.) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > > So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running > > fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') Bill, Thanks for the reply, do you really think it was such a coincidence that the solenoid went out right when I fixed the one tube, it was literally no more than 5 minutes later. I don't know exactly what these things do so if this single click is usually suspect of a bad solenoid then I trust ya :) >>>So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running >>>fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > these things do so if this single click is usually suspect of a bad > solenoid then I trust ya :) Well - definitely get a multimeter out and rule out any poor connections in the power feed (look for voltage drop or loss with key in the start position) before you assume it's the solenoid contacts. The starter is a moderate PITA to get out. Cycle the key to "start" several times also - usually the solenoid contacts will be intermittent, at least when the problem first shows up. IOW - if you cycle the key several times, it might decide to start about the 5th time. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > >>>So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running > >>>fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Yeah, I tried to start it about 15 times straight and it was a no go. Could it be something with the transmission tube I messed with? Could that be blocking something by the starter? > > >>>So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running > > >>>fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I tried jumping the battery but it was a no-go. I checked all the electrical I could but I just dont understand why it would be doing this. Im looking for my OBDII Reader to check for codes, I only had a little oil in it because I was about to change it when the rad when bad and a tiny bit leaked out the tube when I replaced the radiator. I have since filled it and its all clean, do you think it could be a precaution system not letting the car start? The car literally only ran for like 15 seconds with the low oil. >>>>>>So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running >>>>>>fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > precaution system not letting the car start? The car literally only > ran for like 15 seconds with the low oil. There is no computer input for low oil. The oil pressure switch is a dumb switch (contact closure) and controls the idiot light directly (no computer knows if the light is on), and that's it. IOW - it would let you run the engine with zero oil in it until the engine destroyed itself. Tme for multimeter and schematics (of the power/starting system to begine with). Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > >>>>>>So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running > >>>>>>fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thats weird, about 5 years ago we had a leak in the oil pan and the oil ran out, one day the engine just stopped and wouldnt start, when we took it in he said it was a failsafe as to not ruin the engine. >>>>>>>> So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running >>>>>>>> fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > oil ran out, one day the engine just stopped and wouldnt start, when > we took it in he said it was a failsafe as to not ruin the engine. Hi... Houston, we have a problem. Can't turn the starter 'till there's oil pressure, can't possibly have any oil pressure 'till the engine's at least cranking... Take care. Ken > Can't turn the starter 'till there's oil pressure, can't possibly > have any oil pressure 'till the engine's at least cranking... No oil pressure should kill the fuel pump. She should still crank all day long. Not that it's a good idea. ;)  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>Can't turn the starter 'till there's oil pressure, can't possibly >>have any oil pressure 'till the engine's at least cranking... > > No oil pressure should kill the fuel pump. She should still crank all day > long. Not that it's a good idea. ;) Excuse me - but there is only one engine oil pressure sensor on this vehicle, and it is the pressure switch for the idiot light on the instrument cluster. It does nothing but control that light. Its output does not go to any of the computers, and has no control whatsoever of the fuel pump or the fuel pump relay. LOW OIL PRESSURE WILL NOT SHUT THIS ENGINE DOWN. Here is the schematic from the '98/'99 LH vehicle FSM of the one and only engine oil pressure sensor (a switch) on this vehicle: ttp://images27.fotki.com/v972/photos/4/42816/143201/ncordeoilpressurewiringdiagram-vi.jpg I defy you and challenge anyone to present a schematic or a second engine oil pressure sensing part of any kind on this vehicle. There is no other on ANY 2nd gen LH car (probably 1st gen. too, but I don't know for sure on that), and the schematic is correct in showing no connection to anything other than the power from the fuse and the low oil pressure indicator in the cluster - ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO ANYTHING THAT WOULD SHUT IT DOWN FOR LOW ENGINE OIL PRESSURE. Would everyone please quit saying that there is any sensor that will shut this engine down for low oil pressure. If you disagree with that, then put up or shut up: Present either an accurate (i.e., from Chrysler FSM) schematic of the 2nd gen. LH car showing a second engine oil pressure sensor and/or a part number for an engine oil pressure sensor other than the low oil pressure light switch shown in the shcematic linked above. Not trying to be rude, but I find it necessary to be emphatic about this. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > ...Here is the schematic from the '98/'99 LH vehicle FSM of the one and > only engine oil pressure sensor (a switch) on this vehicle: > ttp://images27.fotki.com/v972/photos/4/42816/143201/ncordeoilpressurewiringdiagram-vi.jpg Oops the 'h' on 'http://' got chopped off of that link. Complete link to the schematic for the only low oil pressure sensor (which does nothing but control the idiot light in the cluster) in the 2nd gen. LH vehicle: http://images27.fotki.com/v972/photos/4/42816/143201/ncordeoilpressurewiringdiag ram-vi.jpg Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') Just to add - I suppose it it possible that an engine could shut off when its lifters totally collapse (if that happens before the bearings get destoyed) - certainly power would be reduced as lifters lost their oil supply. I can accept that as a possibility. But there is absolutley no shut down wired into any low engine oil pressure sensor or switch on this vehicle. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > > No oil pressure should kill the fuel pump. She should still crank all day > > long. Not that it's a good idea. ;) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > LOW OIL PRESSURE WILL NOT SHUT THIS ENGINE DOWN. Hence the word 'should'. My point was that in no way would it prevent the engine from cranking, which is totally true. The rest was a (wrong) assumption based on other engines. I stand corrected on that point. > Not trying to be rude... Better luck next time. ;) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>No oil pressure should kill the fuel pump. She should still crank all > day long. Not that it's a good idea. ;) >>Excuse me - but there is only one engine oil pressure sensor on this >>vehicle, and it is the pressure switch for the idiot light on the >>instrument cluster. It does nothing but control that light. Its output >>does not go to any of the computers, and has no control whatsoever of >>the fuel pump or the fuel pump relay. >>LOW OIL PRESSURE WILL NOT SHUT THIS ENGINE DOWN. > Hence the word 'should'. Which is the wrong word because if it's not designed to do so, then it not only shouldn't but wouldn't. > My point was that in no way would it prevent the > engine from cranking, which is totally true. The rest was a (wrong) > assumption based on other engines. I stand corrected on that point. Understood. >>Not trying to be rude... > Better luck next time. ;) Well damn - when you state the facts and people keep ignoring them, sometimes there's nowhere else to go. :) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > Thats weird, about 5 years ago we had a leak in the oil pan and the > oil ran out, one day the engine just stopped and wouldnt start, when > we took it in he said it was a failsafe as to not ruin the engine. On this engine? There is no failsafe on this engine. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >>>>>>> So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running >>>>>>> fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > Tme for multimeter and schematics (of the power/starting system to > begine with). Hi... Having trouble accepting the coincidence of the starter solenoid contacts going from good as new to nothing simultaneous with the work the OP did, so... Hoping that Winnipeg, Canada is too far away for either you or the OP to come and punch me in the nose, I'd like to suggest once more that he take a real good careful look at the battery positive (or extension connection post) and make absolutely sure that he replaced all the cables. Looking for a real thick stiff heavy cable; one that may have fallen down out of sight. If you can't see it anywhere, try to trace the heavy cable back from the starter, make sure it's there. And if that's not it; this saga made a flashback for me. A gazillion years ago, when I studied and worked both a full time and a part time job - there were never ever enough dollars to buy a new solenoid or the time to install it if there were. Had an old Olds, would start only once in a while. Rest of the time, I had to make durn sure it was in Park, parking brake on. Get down under the car with a screwdriver and a small hammer. Use the screwdriver to connect battery to the solenoid input (get the click) and then tap gently on the starter 'till she started. Thinking that you said it wasn't fun to r+r the starter, maybe sorta the same thing would work if the OP really wants to check. Safer and easier - get a trusty friend to put 'er in park, hand brake on, foot firmly on the service brake, and hold the key in the start position. Then a few sharp raps on the starter with a hammer, or maybe a broom stick (don't know where it is in his car) should confirm. Take care. Ken >>>>>>>> So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running >>>>>>>> fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > contacts going from good as new to nothing simultaneous with the work > the OP did, so... I agree - that's why I said "Well - definitely get a multimeter out and rule out any poor connections in the power feed (look for voltage drop or loss with key in the start position) before you assume it's the solenoid contacts". > Hoping that Winnipeg, Canada is too far away for either you or the OP > to come and punch me in the nose, I'd like to suggest once more that > he take a real good careful look at the battery positive (or extension > connection post) and make absolutely sure that he replaced all the > cables. No I agree. This is why I have suggested twice to get a multimeter out. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') Ken, I've confirmed bad solenoid contacts using the hammer method (not with the screwdriver though ... I have a partner in the vehicle turn the key to start while I rap lightly on the starter and take car not to be anywhere near anything that turns/moves under the vehicle) on many occasions! I find Nippondenso starter contacts last us about 5-7 years and 50-80K miles. I buy them now from a source on the Internet for pretty cheap and have them here ready and waiting since I have 3 Chryslers and a Mitsubishi that all use them! Bob >>>>>>>> So the radiator got replaced, started up the car and it was running >>>>>>>> fine, I went to check for tube leaks and found one with the trans. [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] > > Ken Ken, Bill, Blackfoot, Thanks for the flurry of replies, I really do appreciate you taking time out of your night to help me :) Ill try the starter trick tonight, I had an old Hyundai and I had to get under with a hammer for a while to get it to start sometimes. I just have one thing I cant get off my mind, if you can put it to rest that would help. The car started just fine when we first put the radiator in, I turned it off for not all of 30 seconds to fix the transmission fluid hose then it wouldn't start, is their anything I could have done to a battery terminal or switch that I wouldn't have noticed? I tend to have okay luck with cars when I work on em and hope that a starter going bad (or solenoid) at the exact time I was fixing another part would be improbable but Ive checked everything else I can think! I let the battery charge for about 15 minutes and it still wont turn. I have the day off tomorrow to sit in the 112 degree heat and work on this thing :) Again, if I see any of you in a bar, first rounds on me....I don't drink much so Ill have a Dr. Pepper... And ofcorse Bob..Cant forget Bob. > Ken, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Bob Hey Bob - look at http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=VLP&MfrPartNumber=ND34SOL (the parent company of Advance, Kragen, Schucks, etc.) $13 plus shipping. Same quality level as everyone else on the www as far as I can tell. I out a set in one of my Concordes a couple of months ago. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') Bill, Excellent site. Great prices! In the past I've managed to simply replace the contacts and wire brush the plunger. This has worked fine and I've always sold the vehicles before they needed a second set, but at this price, I agree it would be best to replace the plunger second time around! I will file this site for future reference. Bob > Hey Bob - look at > http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=VLP&MfrPartNumber=ND34SOL [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Bill Putney Glad to give you something to be excited about, Bob. :) Seriously - I was happy when I found it too. Saves all the looking up the various Denso starter applications and replacement contacts parts that seems to be the norm for the various internet sources for the contacts that people have provided links to in the past. And - yes - about the best price I've seen for what you get. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >>Bill Putney I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park interlock switch wires might have been knocked loose? Seems an obvious thing to check to me.... > I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what > make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park > interlock switch wires might have been knocked loose? Seems an obvious > thing to check to me.... well I put it in neurtral and it rolls back and the engine wont even try and click when that happens so I assume their in order. >>I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what >>make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > well I put it in neurtral and it rolls back and the engine wont even > try and click when that happens so I assume their in order. The neutral interlock has NOTHING to do with the car shifting out of park and to neutral. Its a switch that disables the starter whenever the gear selector is in anything but neutral or park. If the wires get knocked off, its the same as if the car were in "drive" or "reverse." The starter won't operate. > >>I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what > >>make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > knocked off, its the same as if the car were in "drive" or "reverse." > The starter won't operate. Exactly, but when I used to try and start the car when it was in drive or neutral it wouldnt do anything, it still dosent, when its in park it gives me the single click >>>>I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what >>>>make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > or neutral it wouldnt do anything, it still dosent, when its in park > it gives me the single click You're right - that proves that the neutral interlock is working. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >>>>I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what >>>>make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > or neutral it wouldnt do anything, it still dosent, when its in park > it gives me the single click So are you bound and determined *NOT* to get the voltmeter out and troubleshoot it, i.e., find out where the power gets interupted on the way to the starter? Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >>>>I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what >>>>make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > or neutral it wouldnt do anything, it still dosent, when its in park > it gives me the single click Oh, you didn't say you were getting a click. Nippondenso solenoid contacts strike again. Replace the contacts in the starter. > >>>>I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what > >>>>make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Alright I got under the car and put a multimeter to the starter. I turned the car and it went from 15 to 17.0 and kind of stayed for a bit. What does this mean? The numbers you've quoted below do not make much sense, at least to me since nominal battery voltage should be between 12 and 14 volts DC. Can you explain where you had the multi-meter leads attached? Also, which jacks on the MM were you using and what range had you selected at the time you saw these numbers? What DC voltage do you read across the battery terminals before attempting to start the vehicle and again during the period when the ignition key is turned to start? Bob >> - Show quoted text - > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What does this mean? >Alright I got under the car and put a multimeter to the starter. I >turned the car and it went from 15 to 17.0 and kind of stayed for a >bit. > >What does this mean? It means you don't know how to use a multimeter. Steve B. > >Alright I got under the car and put a multimeter to the starter. I > >turned the car and it went from 15 to 17.0 and kind of stayed for a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Steve B. Not necessarily. If it's a cheap meter and it's reading a bit high that could be valid. If the starter is not engaging at all, and turning the key to start turns off other loads (like headlights), it's quite normal to see a voltage rise like this. At this point, you have to look why the starter is not engaging, and the next step is to see if the solenoid is triggering. If it is, then the problem is in the high-current patch between the solenoid and the starter. I had an older Dodge Caravan that the 'transfer bar' was pitted and had this exact symptom. I couldn't get a replacement part on a Sunday, so I took it apart and put it back together with the bolts used for contact rotated 180 degrees (they were pitted only on one side of the bolthead so this exposed it to fresh metal) and put it back together. I picked up new parts from the dealer on Monday, but they stayed in the glove box for 10 years and were still there when the van was gone. If the problem is no signal to trigger the solenoid, then you have to backtrack from there. >> It means you don't know how to use a multimeter. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >starter is not engaging at all, and turning the key to start turns off other >loads (like headlights), it's quite normal to see a voltage rise like this. Bull Crap. The chances of an electronic meter being 40% off is nil. Hell I've got a handful of meters here that came from Harbor Freight for $1 each. You aren't going to get much cheaper than that and they are dead on every time. To the OP: You need to have the meter on the DC Volt scale and on the setting somewhere near 20V (depends on the scales on your meter) Mae sure you have the leads plugged in to the right two hole. The black one should be in the common and the red in the voltage (usually indicated by a straight line for DC and a wave line for AC and the letter V). Start by checking the voltage across the battery terminals. This will tell you that the battery is charged and that the meter is set and working properly. Voltage should read somewhere close to 12v. You want the black lead to go to ground and the red lead to go to the power lug on the starter itself (not the solenoid). It should read 0.0 until you turn the key to crank then it should go to whatever voltage the battery was at from the step above. Decimal points don't matter but if you read 12v at the battery and 8 volts at the starter then you know you either have a bad connection / bad points in the solenoid or the engine is locked up and the starter can't move it. If the engine is locked up the cables should get warm to the touch after a few seconds of trying to crank. CAUTION: You most likely have bad contacts in the starter as others here have said. Those contacts can suddenly work again at any point in time! You should connect your meter using alligator clip leads and have yourself safely away from the car when someone attempts to crank it. If it cranks while you are under there holding leads to the starter and not expecting it you will jump and that jump could cause you a great deal of injury. You can have the car fixed but you can't necessarily get a mangled arm put back right again. Steve B. > >> It means you don't know how to use a multimeter. > >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Steve B. Bull Crap? You obviously don't know anything about meters! I've seen a cheap flea market meters read a whole volt offset across the board. While that is a cheap meter, better meters rarely have problems like this. I've seen an otherwise decent B&K meter read over 1.5x high on every scale as the battery went weak. Most meters don't do this until well after the batteries are too way too low for use, but if someone doesn't notice the battery indicator. In either case, you can still use the meter to see a trend or what is going on, it's just not valid for quantitative measurements. Before you say "Bull Crap", learn about what you speak! >Bull Crap? You obviously don't know anything about meters! > >I've seen a cheap flea market meters read a whole volt offset across the >board. While that is a cheap meter, better meters rarely have problems >like this. That's nice but the OP said he was reading 17v. Don't know where you live but here 17 - 12 = more than 1 >I've seen an otherwise decent B&K meter read over 1.5x high on every >scale as the battery went weak. Most meters don't do this until well >after the batteries are too way too low for use, but if someone doesn't >notice the battery indicator. And I've seen catfish fall from the sky. Neither is even remotely likely to be happening in the OPs case./ >In either case, you can still use the meter to see a trend or what is going >on, it's just not valid for quantitative measurements. > >Before you say "Bull Crap", learn about what you speak! Bull Crap. You are so full of it your hair is brown. Steve B. > >Bull Crap? You obviously don't know anything about meters! > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's nice but the OP said he was reading 17v. Don't know where you > live but here 17 - 12 = more than 1 Now YOU don't know what you're talking about. Vehicles are not 12v! It's the nominal voltage if you want to pick nits. And that seems to be the extent of your ability in this. > >I've seen an otherwise decent B&K meter read over 1.5x high on every > >scale as the battery went weak. Most meters don't do this until well [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And I've seen catfish fall from the sky. Neither is even remotely > likely to be happening in the OPs case./ Why? Do you have hidden knowledge of this situation? Or are you all powerful. Just asking. > >In either case, you can still use the meter to see a trend or what is going > >on, it's just not valid for quantitative measurements. > > > >Before you say "Bull Crap", learn about what you speak! > > Bull Crap. You are so full of it your hair is brown. I'd have to ask what color your hair is. You may be mechanically inclined, but you obviously know little or nothing about meters or how to use them other then emperically. God forbid you have to use a meter that wasn't 'accurate'. I really hope you're not in a position to service anything electrical in a vehicle where a customer is paying for the service! >>>Bull Crap? You obviously don't know anything about meters! >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It's the nominal voltage if you want to pick nits. And that seems to be the > extent of your ability in this. >>>I've seen an otherwise decent B&K meter read over 1.5x high on every >>>scale as the battery went weak. Most meters don't do this until well >>>after the batteries are too way too low for use, but if someone doesn't >>>notice the battery indicator. Without knowing what kind of meter (analog or digital) or anything else about it, if the batteries are going out, all bets are off about what any reading means. IOW - I wouldn't draw any conclusions whatsoever from the OP's post on his readings whether it's due to low batteries or something else. If a meter is reading 17 volts on a wire that can't possibly be at more than 13 volts (engine not running), I don't draw any conclusions (other than something is seriously wrong with the reading). The tension between you two aside, I have to side with Steve on this. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > >>>Bull Crap? You obviously don't know anything about meters! > >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') I'm just saying that a lot of non-electrical type people leave the meter in the box and forget about it. They don't use it for quantitative work on a regular enough basis to trust absolute readings. The meter may be in there for weeks without use, then when they use it it's lucky to work at all. In that case, even a bad meter still tells you something. A failing meter may not be close at all to registering an accurate voltage, but you can STILL use it to see what's going on. Does it matter that it reads 12v, or 14, or even 18? The meter is going to be used to see the 'trend' and see 'what happens', not take a measurement. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that 99% of the time with automotive work, a test lamp would tell a good tech almost as much as a meter. Especially when it comes to diagnosing a starter issue. Sorry, I guess I just tripped off on the incredibly helpful comment telling the original poster nothing other than that he didn't know how to use a meter. >If a meter is reading 17 volts on a wire that can't possibly be at more >than 13 volts (engine not running), I don't draw any conclusions (other >than something is seriously wrong with the reading). The OP is the same guy who hooked up the battery backwards in this same car in the middle of July. Many people tried to help with that problem. He never bothered to let us know if anything helped or what became of the car. He didn't share that incident with the group this time even though that kind of info would be kind of handy to have when helping to troubleshoot an electrical problem. Then the radiator and now the starter and the meter that reads 17v... Steve B. Minor Correction: He never said 17 VOLTS. He just said 17. That is why I asked if it was set to voltage. If it was, then my maybe it was set to AC volts, although I'd think that would display as less than DCV. Bob > Then the radiator and now the starter and the meter that reads 17v... > > Steve B. >> >Bull Crap? You obviously don't know anything about meters! >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >It's the nominal voltage if you want to pick nits. And that seems to be the >extent of your ability in this. Again, I don't know how the do math where you live but down here in the South 40% is more than a nit. This car hasn't run since the 27th of August and the battery was charged on that date so it is reasonable to expect his battery is still in the neighborhood of 12v. If he was reading 13 and it should be 12.6 thats a nit... 5 volts on a 12v system is not a nit. >I'd have to ask what color your hair is. You may be mechanically inclined, >but you obviously know little or nothing about meters or how to use them >other then emperically. God forbid you have to use a meter that wasn't >'accurate'. Yes, God forbid I can't afford to run down to Harbor Freight and pick up another DVM for $1.07. Have a handful running around here now and each is as close to accurate as I will ever need to get. And yes, I still have the Simpson with a needle for the stuff that matters but have never needed it on a car. >I really hope you're not in a position to service anything electrical in a >vehicle where a customer is paying for the service! Yeah Yeah Yeah. You don't know me and I don't know you. You really shouldn't let old farts like me get so far under your skin. It isn't healthy. Steve B. > Yeah Yeah Yeah. You don't know me and I don't know you. You really > shouldn't let old farts like me get so far under your skin. It isn't > healthy. > > Steve B. Don't worry, it's not the skin! Hmm, you're a cantankerous piss. Probably someone I'd share a beer with if we met in person. After we both got done pissing. Mike > >> >Bull Crap? You obviously don't know anything about meters! > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Alright I'm back and seriously guys. f.cking chill. I'm going to prove half of you right and say I don't know a multimeter from a hole in my a.s (which is odd since I'm a computer technician. Just never had to use one) I had a buddy who was trying to guide me on what to use, the meter had a 12V switch (it was a 25$ EQUUS 3320 from wally world) and those were the numbers it was giving me. Mind you of the following A: I don't know where the hell I was supposed to put it so I pulled the little plastic cap off and stuck it there. B: It was so goddamn cramped in there I probably wouldn't put it in the right spot if I tried Now a lot of you guys have been posting good stuff. A lot of you have been a.sholes, which I somehow understand because it can be frustrating to talk to someone trying to DIY who knows so much less than you on any given subject but is that not what were here for? I don't see an advanced on this rec.auto.makers.chrysler so I know I'm in the right place. I digress. I'm going to get under it this next weekend (this week to to crazy) and try and get this son of a bitch out even though its so cramped, Ill test it on a vice when I get it out and might just replace it since a good replacement is only 100 or so dollars. Anymore info you think I might need is more than appreciated but I'm warning you now. I'm an armature at this so don't be a dick about it. Oh and one more thing, the battery discharged so I put a new one in just so I know I wont be using a crap battery. > Alright I'm back and seriously guys. f.cking chill. > > I'm going to prove half of you right and say I don't know a multimeter > from a hole in my a.s (which is odd since I'm a computer technician. > Just never had to use one) Which - the multimeter or the hole in your a.s? (sorry - couldn't resist) :) > I had a buddy who was trying to guide me on what to use, the meter had > a 12V switch (it was a 25$ EQUUS 3320 from wally world) and those were > the numbers it was giving me. Mind you of the following Does that mean that it's not supposed to read any higher than 12 volts on that settting? Or does it meant it reads in that general range? Did you read the manual on how to use the voltmeter function? 17 volt reading on your car with the engine off and no chrager on means the meter is defective or there's something you have not related accurately (because that reading is impossible on a good meter under the conditions you stated). > A: I don't know where the hell I was supposed to put it so I pulled > the little plastic cap off and stuck it there. That's equivalent to someone saying I didn't understand the instructions you gave me for my computer problem, so I clicked "format drive". If you don't know what you're doing, ask questions - don't just do random stuff and expect to be able to make sense of it. The results you get with voltage readings at specific points under specific conditions tell you certain things. But just to stick it at some random point, and get some weird reading and ask "What does this mean "is ludicrous. > B: It was so goddamn cramped in there I probably wouldn't put it in > the right spot if I tried Yep - that's what working on a modern car is. You either get the information you need to figure it out and don't do anything until you understand what you're doing, or you pay someone else to do it. > Now a lot of you guys have been posting good stuff. A lot of you have > been a.sholes, which I somehow understand because it can be > frustrating to talk to someone trying to DIY who knows so much less > than you on any given subject but is that not what were here for? I > don't see an advanced on this rec.auto.makers.chrysler so I know I'm > in the right place. Yes - when you don't know anything about what you are doing, you need to follow specific instructions without trying to wing it. That's why several of us told you what points to read and under what conditions. You didn't know enough to do that. You should have asked questions. I don't know what to tell you about your meter readings - like I said, it's either defective, or your ignorance (not an insult - it's an accurate word in this situation) is blocking you from understanding what really happened and relating it to us. 17 volts under the circumstances you described? Impossible. > I digress. > > I'm going to get under it this next weekend (this week to to crazy) > and try and get this son of a bitch out even though its so cramped, > Ill test it on a vice when I get it out and might just replace it > since a good replacement is only 100 or so dollars. You don't say what your planning on replacing. Entire starter? > Anymore info you think I might need is more than appreciated but I'm > warning you now. I'm an armature at this so don't be a dick about it. We've pretty much told you what you need to know. It boils down to this: Power is on the hot side of the solenoid contacts. It gets transfered to the output side of the contacts directly to the starter when you turn the key to "start" *if* the contacts are good. It might help if you had a shop manual (factory - not Haynes or other aftermarket). But then that begs the question: WOuld you know how to read the schematics and diagrams? (Again - not an insult - an honest question due to where you are on the learning curve of things automotive and electrical). Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > ...You don't say what [your] planning on replacing. Should be "you're". Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') OK guys, I just put a brand new starter in and its doing the same f.cking thing. Is it time to burn this car yet? > OK guys, I just put a brand new starter in and its doing the same > f.cking thing. > > Is it time to burn this car yet? No. Just time to give it to soemone who knows how to troubleshoot with a multimeter. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') I did, he actually got it running, it took him a full day, he had to replace 6 wires that were just old, he said he was suprised it hadnt happened earlier, and he also said the starter was dead. Greatest thing of all.. He only charged me a 24 pack of diet coke. > I did, he actually got it running, it took him a full day, he had to > replace 6 wires that were just old, he said he was suprised it hadnt > happened earlier, and he also said the starter was dead. Greatest > thing of all.. He only charged me a 24 pack of diet coke. Well either he is not a competent troubleshooter, or the starter was in fact bad *and* there is an additional as-yet-undetermined problem. Things are not adding up in that last post. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > Not necessarily. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > problem > is in the high-current patch between the solenoid and the starter. See my very first post, as well as recent ones, in this thread. > I had an older Dodge Caravan that the 'transfer bar' was pitted and > had this exact symptom. I couldn't get a replacement part on a Sunday, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I picked up new parts from the dealer on Monday, but they stayed in > the glove box for 10 years and were still there when the van was gone. This particular starter/solenoid is not the type that you can rotate the solenoid contacts 180°. Again - read my earlier posts in this thread. I have this exact year and option package/engine Concorde, and I replaced the solenoid plunger/contacts (Nippon Denso starter) just a couple of months ago. > If the problem is no signal to trigger the solenoid, then you have to > backtrack from there. Yes - we (several of us) have been addressing that with the OP, giving specific details. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >>>>>>I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what >>>>>>make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > What does this mean? I agree with the others - something's not right there. You are not using the meter right or the meter is defective. AND - you have to know *where* on the starter you are putting the meter lead. The hot lead from the battery goes to the input side of the solenoid. That would always be "hot". *IF* the solenoid contacts are bad, you need the meter lead on the ouput side of the solenoid/input side of the starter motor which *should* b ground with ignition switch off, and nominal 12 volts when igntion switch is in the "start" position. If that last reading is significantly lower than 12 volts (say, anywhere from 0 to 9 volts), then the contacts are bad like I've been suggesting since my very first post in this thread. To reiterate: You have to realize that the contact is a large relay that passes the huge current from the battery to the starter. It's the output of the solnoid contacts that you have to look at with the ignition switch in the "start" position - *not* the hot wire from the battery. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >>>>>>I haven't followed this thread from the start, don't know what >>>>>>make/model car it is.... but has ANYONE suggested the neutral/park [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > What does this mean? I agree with the others - bad meter or you're not using it right. No way you have over 13 volts anywhere with the engine not running and no charger on it. You need to be looking at the *output* side of the solenoid contacts/input to the starter motor - *not* the hot wire from the battery to the solenoid. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') OK, divide and conquer. Get a multimeter with alligator clips. Put it right on the starter bolt that feeds the high current power to the starter, then the frame of the car. If you have a built in solenoid it should read 12v. If you have an external solenoid, it might read 0 or 12v. Try to start the car and watch the meter. What it does when it doesn't start will help tell you where to look. If it drops to a volt or so and the starter doesn't crank, it's PROBABLY a battery/cable issue before where you're measuring. Start moving back towards the battery. If you measure the voltage right on the battery post and it drops and still doesn't start, it's gotta be something with the battery. As you move back toward the battery, if you suddenly see it STAY at 12v or at least stay somewhat high where previously it was diving to 0 you know you just passed the bad point. If you have a solenoid in the starter, put the meter on the 'control' post for the solenoid. If you see it change when you try to start, chances are the problem is internal. If it doesn't change, then it's a problem somewhere else in the car like an interlock or even the key switch. All right guys, heres what I did, I didnt want to break out a multimeter for one good reason, I didnt have one :) Yesterday I bought a new negative cable, positive cable, fusable link and battery....and a multimeter :) I put all the goodies in and it still gives me a single click, I got the meter out but right when I was about to test a huge downpour came and has kept me from the car since. ill post when I go at it with the MM "AFX" > I didnt want to break out a multimeter for one good reason, I didnt > have one :) Multimeter - $ 10 > Yesterday I bought a new negative cable, positive cable, fusable link > and battery....and a multimeter :) Bunch of new parts - $100 > I put all the goodies in and it still gives me a single click, I got > the meter out but right when I was about to test a huge downpour came > and has kept me from the car since. Another day in the life of a fool - priceless. - J |
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