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Car Forum / Chrysler Cars / July 2009Slow AC evaporator leak '96 LHS
'96 Chrysler LHS - California rules. Problem: very slow AC refrigerant leak; works satisfactorily for 6-8 weeks before needing recharge. Testing under the hood is negative to electronic sniffer and blacklight visual inspection for dye leakage. Electronic sniffer appears to be positive inside the interior vents, suspect evaporator section or its connectivity Repair consideration: disassembling the dash to access the evaporator section will be labor expensive and 'awkward' Workaround: my mechanic is 'compatible' with my doing some of my own recharging and he is willing to (also/alternatively) recharge with his shop's recovery system *BUT* it is his belief that R-134a recharges which contain leakseal are bad for his recovery system, and he doesn't want me to use those types when I recharge. Conflict: I would like to continue to use both my own DIY recharging as well as periodically having him fill it up properly; but I would also like to see if the leakseal would help my situation. Questions: Is it a myth or not that leakseal fouls up recovery systems? Can anyone provide me with any 'documentation' or a link of a discussion on this subject so that I can present my arguments to him for 'allowing' me to use leakseal? The local auto parts store sez that they've never heard of leakseal fouling/damaging recovery systems. Is there a difference in this context in the danger of the older leak seals for Freon systems vs for newer 134a leak seal additives?  SignatureMike Easter > '96 Chrysler LHS - California rules. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > difference in this context in the danger of the older leak seals for > Freon systems vs for newer 134a leak seal additives? I know I'm not answering the question you asked, but I don't know if I've heard of a single case of sealer actually working for any length of time. SignatureBill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >> Questions: Is it a myth or not that leakseal fouls up recovery >> systems? > I know I'm not answering the question you asked, but I don't know if > I've heard of a single case of sealer actually working for any length of > time. I am also interested in that experience information. If you ask the stores that sell the stuff whether or not anyone ever reports it working, naturally they say Yes. HoweverAnd, those stores also sell refrigerant without leak seal. And also naturally the shops that fix the systems which DIY attempts with leak seal which didn't work (permanently) are going to see 100% eventual failures. I would think no one would come in to the car AC repair shop to report a system which isn't leaking any more. I haven't reviewed the chronology properly, but I think this leak's time between recharge is getting smaller/less in terms of weeks. SignatureMike Easter >>> Questions: Is it a myth or not that leakseal fouls up recovery >>> systems? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I haven't reviewed the chronology properly, but I think this leak's time > between recharge is getting smaller/less in terms of weeks. If that's the case, chances are a bad evaporator - it almost always is on the 2nd gen LH's, and they use the same evap. part as 1st gens. Also someone posted in the past that a trick for detecting a bad evap. in a system that has the dye already in it is to check the end of the condensate tube with a black light - if evap. leaks, the dye will get on the outside of the evap. and get picked up by the condensate - hence glowing inside of condensate tube. Clever, eh? SignatureBill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > Also someone posted in the past that a trick for detecting a bad evap. > in a system that has the dye already in it is to check the end of the > condensate tube with a black light - if evap. leaks, the dye will get on > the outside of the evap. and get picked up by the condensate - hence > glowing inside of condensate tube. Clever, eh? I'm (pretty) sure we/he didn't look there with his light. Good idea. The next time I'm in there to chat with him, we can take a peek. I don't know my generations, so I don't understand this very well: > If that's the case, chances are a bad evaporator - it almost always is > on the 2nd gen LH's, and they use the same evap. part as 1st gens. Does this mean that the 96 is a 2nd generation, but the evaporator is 'no better' than the earlier generation or what? SignatureMike Easter >> Also someone posted in the past that a trick for detecting a bad evap. >> in a system that has the dye already in it is to check the end of the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Does this mean that the 96 is a 2nd generation, but the evaporator is > 'no better' than the earlier generation or what? Yours is 1st gen. 1st gen was '93-'97. '98-'04 was 2nd gen. (no 300M in 1st gen, and not until '99 MY). 2nd gen was new body style and engines and many re-designed mechanical parts (same tranny). SignatureBill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >>> If that's the case, chances are a bad evaporator - it almost always is >>> on the 2nd gen LH's, and they use the same evap. part as 1st gens. > Yours is 1st gen. 1st gen was '93-'97. '98-'04 was 2nd gen. (no 300M > in 1st gen, and not until '99 MY). 2nd gen was new body style and > engines and many re-designed mechanical parts (same tranny). Oh, I get it now. You are accustomed to diagnosing 2nd gen AC problems and they are frequently evaporator -- which is the same evaporator part as the previous gen/models. Thanks. SignatureMike Easter > '96 Chrysler LHS - California rules. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > which contain leakseal are bad for his recovery system, and he doesn't > want me to use those types when I recharge. He's correct. Also, the leak seal products are bad for your AC system. Two types of sealer; the ones that harden plug the passages in the evaporator, condenser, orifice tube, accumulator, compressor, muffler. The ones that swell seals are ineffective on an evaporator or other hardware component and they also damage the system by softening the inside of the hoses (they eventually turn to goo) allowing the hose material to contaminate the entire system. AC sealer products are for those who don't know any better. Once installed, you can pretty much consider the entire system 'totaled.' > Conflict: I would like to continue to use both my own DIY recharging as > well as periodically having him fill it up properly; This makes no sense. What is the advantage to alternating back and forth? > but I would also > like to see if the leakseal would help my situation. Not only will it not help, it will increase the cost of a proper repair drastically. > Questions: Is it a myth or not that leakseal fouls up recovery systems? No myth. In addition to it fouling recovery equipment (which the customer should be on the hook for) if I dug around thru my bookmarks I could find links to a Ford pick up truck that had sealer installed, the explosion took out the compressor, the condenser, the radiator and one of the valve covers on the engine. The sealer has installed by a HVAC "pro." > Can anyone provide me with any 'documentation' or a link of a discussion > on this subject so that I can present my arguments to him for 'allowing' > me to use leakseal? There is no shortage of stories out there that claim "it worked great." More important is what they're not telling, i.e., that they system eventually failed catastrophically, or that subsequent repairs involved replacing every component in the system, or that they scrapped the car shortly after. > The local auto parts store sez that they've never > heard of leakseal fouling/damaging recovery systems. And how would they know? They're not in the repair business, they're not in the equipment business, they're not in the AC business. They are in the ring up your purchase business. By and large, parts stores are bad places to go to for advise. > Is there a > difference in this context in the danger of the older leak seals for > Freon systems vs for newer 134a leak seal additives? None what so ever. I can tell you from 40 years of experience, 30 of them doing AC repairs that short cuts never work and more often than not, back fire and wind up costing much more than a proper repair. > "Mike Easter" >> Conflict: I would like to continue to use both my own DIY recharging >> as well as periodically having him fill it up properly; > > This makes no sense. What is the advantage to alternating back and > forth? My mechanic is very reasonable in his charges for me. Now that he has completed all of his troubleshooting to his satisfaction, he is comfortable with just evacuating and charging the system and charging me 'modestly' for the r134a. used, and he buys it a lot cheaper per pound in his tank than little cans at the retail consumer auto parts store. My personal experience with recharging with a kit - so far - is currently zero, but it seems easy enough, considering that I know when I start that -1- the system is empty and -2- it doesn't take very much refrigerant for the AC to work satisfactorily for me. The evidence to me for #2 above is that the AC works adequately right up until the time that it is virtually completely empty. If I were going to charge it, I might just put in a can or less than a pound. Maybe 2 cans, a bit over a pound and a half. If he were going to charge it, he would fill it. I don't know exactly from him how 'bad' the evaporator R&R labor costs would be, but my reading of the description in the Chilcott manual sounds pretty extensive to remove the dash. SignatureMike Easter For what it's worth, a can (12 oz.) of R134 at Auto Zone cost $8.99. A case of 12 (12 oz.) cans at Sams is $39. If it goes 6-8 weeks on a addition of R134, get a case at Sams. > For what it's worth, a can (12 oz.) of R134 at Auto Zone cost $8.99. > > A case of 12 (12 oz.) cans at Sams is $39. > > If it goes 6-8 weeks on a addition of R134, get a case at Sams. Yep; that's the direction I'm leaning, except I don't have a Sams and my WalMart doesn't have that good case deal you describe - I haven't seen any cases online that cheap . I'm hoping this 6-8 week/charge business holds up. Such an interval was based on a full charge. Today the AC function was 'gone'. I added 13 oz from a kit can which came with a connector and trigger for about $5 more than the same size can. I also bought a couple of $9 Kragen DuPont Suva 12 oz cans at the same time. The 13oz charge restored good cooling function; so I'm going with that for the time being. I suspect that it won't last as long as a full charge. If the interval is too short, next time I'll use 2 cans. SignatureMike Easter >> For what it's worth, a can (12 oz.) of R134 at Auto Zone cost $8.99. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > If the interval is too short, next time I'll use 2 cans. If it is in fact your evaporator, the time between needs to recharge will get shorter and shorter to where eventually you'll be charging it as much as you're driving it - IOW, forget it at that point. The hole is caused by corrosion, so it starts out as a microscopic pinhole, and gets bigger day by day. As you can imagine, it doesn't take much of a hole to drain a few ozs. of refrigerant quickly. One of my Concordes developed a leak in the evap. I did like you (recharged as needed), and people on the LH car forums told me that would only work for a while, and they were right. I replaced it myself about 3 years ago. SignatureBill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > The hole > is caused by corrosion, so it starts out as a microscopic pinhole, and > gets bigger day by day. How about if I introduce a nanobot with some kind of metallic repair tools into the system? It/They would travel thru' the system until they reached the hole's edges, set up a repair station, bond the necessary repair lattice to the existing corroded structure, and then fill in the lattice with an appropriate composite delivered by other nanobots. I should be able to invent such a 'bot complex by the time Boeing figures out how to attach the wing to the backordered 787. :-/ SignatureMike Easter >> The hole >> is caused by corrosion, so it starts out as a microscopic pinhole, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > existing corroded structure, and then fill in the lattice with an > appropriate composite delivered by other nanobots. That would work! SignatureBill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >> The hole >> is caused by corrosion, so it starts out as a microscopic pinhole, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > :-/ Or you could cornpone it: Go to wrecking yard, find an old transmission fluid cooler, take home, clean out with mineral spirits, cut hoses off old evap, clamp hose ends to cooler, install 12v muffin fan from old computer behind cooler, mount under dash. Instant remote evap! ;-) Ted A/C hoses for your car, cut the inside ends off hoses, replace with > > "Mike Easter" > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > would be, but my reading of the description in the Chilcott manual > sounds pretty extensive to remove the dash. As I mentioned earlier, shortcuts usually cause greater damage... The refrigerant capacity of your system is 28 ounces. You're planning on charging 12 ounces at a time. (less than half) Oil is circulated thru the system via the refrigerant charge. Half the charge, half the oil circulation (actually, less than half since some is already leaking out). Shortcut = $450 (new compressor) +labor extra over and above doing the job properly. |
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