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Car Forum / Citroen Cars / March 2006Xantia Accumulator Sphere
Has anyone got any tips on unscrewing these? I've just been trying to remove it and so far I've tried a Boa strap wrench with a rubber strap - too big and too stretchy, a chain wrench purchased from Machine Mart http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=040210243&r=2076&g=111 - snapped when two spanners were applied and one of those strapwrenches with a socket adaptor http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=040210245&r=2076&g=111 Which still won't shift it even with one foot braced firmly against the underside of the car. The system is depressurised by unscrewing the nut on the regulator.  SignatureMalc Permitted to use the outs de lan > Has anyone got any tips on unscrewing these? I've just been trying to > remove it and so far I've tried a Boa strap wrench with a rubber strap - > too big and too stretchy, a chain wrench purchased from Machine Mart There is a back issue of Car Mechanic mag which covers this work, give them a look. PDH > Has anyone got any tips on unscrewing these? I've just been trying to > remove it and so far I've tried a Boa strap wrench with a rubber [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the underside of the car. The system is depressurised by unscrewing > the nut on the regulator. from memory (wait a day or two before taking my advice) if anyone knows better pipe up ! pressurise the system, crack the sphere but only just crack it. depressurise the system and unscrew the sphere. > from memory (wait a day or two before taking my advice) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > depressurise the system and unscrew the sphere. And there are apparently 7 of the things scattered around the car. PDH >> from memory (wait a day or two before taking my advice) >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And there are apparently 7 of the things scattered around the car. 7 accumulator spheres ? you sure ? >> depressurise the system and unscrew the sphere. > > And there are apparently 7 of the things scattered around the car. Number of spheres depends on the model. The Activa version has them all over. If you are within reach of Chorlton cum Hardy, 'Westroen' (father and son in a suburban semi) at 7, Nell Lane will replace all the spheres with recon units at £25 each. Three year guarantee. For another £40 they drain and replace the hydraulic fluid and change the filters in the reservoir. All that while you wait in about an hour. It's all they do and they know the job inside out. Their sphere removal tool is a big steel split ring with a big tensioning bolt, welded to a heavy steel bar that gets belted with a lump hammer. You're wasting your time with filter type wrenches (and can damage the mounting block and pipes if you try- particularly the rears which get clogged with road muck and corrosion). DaveK. >>> depressurise the system and unscrew the sphere. >> >> And there are apparently 7 of the things scattered around the car. >> > Number of spheres depends on the model. The Activa version has them > all over. 7 accumulator spheres out of 10 ? > If you are within reach of Chorlton cum Hardy, 'Westroen' (father and > son in a suburban semi) at 7, Nell Lane will replace all the spheres [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > rears which get clogged with road muck and corrosion). > DaveK. recon spheres ? hiow does that work then ? "regassed" or new membranes ? No No No Please don't try to even crack open the main accumulator sphere with the pressure on, you only need to do this with the rear suspension spheres and this is to stop the cylinders from moving. To remove. Undo the 12mm bleed screw on the regulator by 2 turns max. Using a wrench, undo the sphere. Remove the O ring from the grove. Replacing, Fit the new O ring in the grove, Screw on the replacement sphere, as tight as you can get it by hand only. Start the engine and run for approx 2 mins Tighten the bleed screw. The best tool for the job is a band wrench from Pleiades www.pleiades.uk.com Or give them a ring on 01487 831239 I have used and abused mine for years and still aint broke it. Recon spheres ? How does that work then ? I have allways used recon spheres without any worries again from pleiades, the spheres are guaranteed for 2 years unlimited milage!! They dont have new membranes as they are sealed and I dont think that you could replace the membranes, but Pleiades tell me that the spheres are all inspected before re pressurising, thats why they can give them a long guarantee Sorry if this post comes out twice, but I had an error message with the first time I replyed!!! Regards. Slim. > No No No > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Start the engine and run for approx 2 mins > Tighten the bleed screw. fairysnuff ! I bow to your superior knowledge, slim ! < bows > :-) > The best tool for the job is a band wrench from Pleiades > www.pleiades.uk.com > Or give them a ring on 01487 831239 > I have used and abused mine for years and still aint broke it. >> Recon spheres ? How does that work then ? > I have allways used recon spheres without any worries again from > pleiades, the spheres are guaranteed for 2 years unlimited milage!! > They dont have new membranes as they are sealed and I dont think that > you could replace the membranes, but Pleiades tell me that the spheres > are all inspected before re pressurising, thats why they can give them > a long guarantee :confused: I've been told that the spheres which are re-gassed don't take into consideration the deterioration of the membrane. I know that the spheres are filled with nitrogen, right ? nitrogen molecules are supposed to be too big to escape through rubber (see also tyres) so why do the spheres fail ? is it the deterioration of the membrane ? where does the nitrogen go if it's not through the membranes ? if the nitrogen does escape through the membranes can it get into the LHM fluid and cause that to deteriorate ? when I bought my xantia I noticed that 4 spheres were still under warranty and I managed to get them replaced at the main dealer when I took it in for it's 78,000 mile service. you should have seen the look on their faces when they told me that all 4 spheres needed replacing and I produced the warranty !! that's the only reason I took it into the main dealer, btw ;-) for this reason, I haven't had the need to buy any spheres yet so I'm all ears as to why they fail in the first place. so many questions ! > when I bought my xantia I noticed that 4 spheres were still under warranty > and I managed to get them replaced at the main dealer when I took it in > for it's 78,000 mile service. you should have seen the look on their faces > when they told me that all 4 spheres needed replacing and I produced the > warranty !! that's the only reason I took it into the main dealer, btw ;-) This is what I like to hear, somebody socking it to a dealer....! :o) There is a god after all. PDH The gradual deteriation of a sphere is down to molecular diffusion (Grahams Law) This diffusion takes place place as the nitrogen gas migrates through the molecular structure of the rubber diaphraghm. Much the same as a helium balloon going down, not because it's got a hole in it, just because they do!! When you buy a helium balloon for the kids, you expect it to float up rapid, the next day or two we expect it to be on the floor, but still with no holes in it. If you had purchased a foil type balloon, this would stay up for much longer, the reason being that the molecular structure of foil is closer than rubber. All spheres go down, we cannot avoid it, it's the way things are. Typically on the Citroen the spheres reach about half the pressure within 3 years, if you have them recharged at this point there will be no damage to the diaphragm and they will last for another 3 years or so. If you leave it untill the suspension is solid, the diaphragm will hit the top and at this point irreversable damage occurs, therefore your sphere is scrap metal. The shelf life of a sphere is years and years, as when not being used the gas has to migrate not only through the rubber diaphragm, but also through the steel wall of the sphere, this takes a lot longer as the molocular structure of steel is a lot better. When the diffusion takes place (ongoing from day one) the gas does go into the LHM system, but this is so gradual it will work it's way out to the reservoir and you wont even notice it. I am suprised however that you managed to get a warranty claim to stick!! Most warranty companys will only pay out on sudden failure, not normal wear and tear. Lucky you !!! Sorry its a bit long winded, but I am not to good at explaining technical bits. Regards. Slim > The shelf life of a sphere is years and years, as when not being used > the gas has to migrate not only through the rubber diaphragm, but also > through the steel wall of the sphere, this takes a lot longer as the > molocular structure of steel is a lot better. Gas diffusion through steel, eh? Giggle. (No, it won't happen. Which if you're a diver is probably a good thing :-) ) cheers, clive In uk.rec.cars.maintenance Clive George <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote: >> The shelf life of a sphere is years and years, as when not being used >> the gas has to migrate not only through the rubber diaphragm, but also [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > (No, it won't happen. Which if you're a diver is probably a good thing :-) ) Gasses do indeed diffuse through metals. The rate depends on the metal, the thickness, porosity, temperature, gas, but is generally orders of magnitude below that through plastics or rubbers. And it's not inherent that the spheres have to go down. It could use a metal bellows inside, for example. The message <4419c29b$0$3639$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net> from Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> contains these words: > And it's not inherent that the spheres have to go down. > It could use a metal bellows inside, for example. The reason hydrolastic used to go down (apart from losing fluid) was mostly 'cos the nylon threads that reinforced the rubber crept under load. They were replaced with terylene which didn't. I know this 'cos it was one of the first reserach things my brother did for Dunlop when he joined them after leaving uni many moons ago. SignatureSkipweasel Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. >> Gas diffusion through steel, eh? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > gas, but is generally orders of magnitude below that through plastics or > rubbers. Go on, how many orders of magnitude for nitrogen through accumulator-thickness steel at room temperature? Will any make it out before the end of the solar system? (assuming it doesn't rust :-) ) cheers, clive > The gradual deteriation of a sphere is down to molecular diffusion > (Grahams Law) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > When you buy a helium balloon for the kids, you expect it to float up > rapid, the next day or two we expect it to be on the floor, I've usually inhaled it all by then :o) > but still > with no holes in it. If you had purchased a foil type balloon, this [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Regards. > Slim ta for that. I'm having the LHM flushed & replaced & return filters blasted tomorrow for £25+ vat . if I do have to replace the spheres at any point in the future I'll bear in mind what you have said. Clive, Actually gas diffusion does happen through steel as steel is a molecular structure, The time taken to notice any loss at all would be years though, (luck for the divers indeed) Regards Slim http://www.chem.tamu.edu/class/majors/tutorialnotefiles/graham.htm Hydraulic system flushed, filters washed, LHM replaced. £25 ????? If it sounds to good to be true, It normally is too good to be true!! To flush the system First drain the fluid, remove the reservoir and wash, including filters (using parrafin) Fill with Hydraflush, then excercise the system for at least 20 mins. up, down, steering etc. Remove the wheels and bleed through each brake caliper. Drain the fluid again,. Remove the reservoir, wash again and wash the filters. Re-fill with QUALITY, ie Castrol or Total LHM Bleed through each caliper untill clean LHM is seen at each bleed nipple. All this will take about 2-- 2.5 hours + £15 ish for the flushing fluid and £25 for LHM. Sorry to piss on yer fireworks but thats just my opinion. Regards. Slim. > Actually gas diffusion does happen through steel as steel is a > molecular structure, The time taken to notice any loss at all would be > years though, (luck for the divers indeed) > > http://www.chem.tamu.edu/class/majors/tutorialnotefiles/graham.htm Slim - Why have you given me a link to a page explaining how gas diffusion is the rate two gases mix? How fast do you think nitrogen diffuses through steel? You earlier implied it would be sufficiently fast to explain spheres going flat. This is of course at normal temperatures, ie say 40C max. Do you think any would have escaped the spheres by the time the earth stops existing? (What is a molecular structure in this context?) cheers, clive Sorry But I already said that I am not to good at explaining tech bits!! Gas migating through steel does happen albeit very very slowly, infact the rate is insuggnificant. The sphere going down is gas migrating through rubber, as in a sphere the diaphragm sits about halfway up the sphere during normal use. The rate of a sphere loosing its pressure is determined by use and heat, the front spheres and accumulator will loose pressure at the rate of about 10 bar per year, and the rears by about 5 bar per year. (under bonnet heat accounting for the greater loss) The way I read it molecular structure is the fact that everything is made from tiny molecules!!!!!!!!! Yeah ok sorry again wrong link??? But if you google Graham's Law you can find out all sorts of very booring info if you feel realy bored. Regards. Slim. > Sorry But I already said that I am not to good at explaining tech > bits!! > > Gas migating through steel does happen albeit very very slowly, infact > the rate is insuggnificant. At ambient temperature how much does it happen? > The sphere going down is gas migrating through rubber, as in a sphere > the diaphragm sits about halfway up the sphere during normal use. Agreed. > The way I read it molecular structure is the fact that everything is > made from tiny molecules!!!!!!!!! Well, y'see there's a bit of your problem. Metals aren't made from tiny molecules. Everything is made from atoms, yes, but the structure varies quite a lot. You've got conventional covalent molecular bonds in the little molecules like notrogen and water, going to bigger ones like octane, proteins, DNA, polythene, etc. Minerals can use the same bonds - eg diamond, quartz, and that can lead to some quite big lattices. Then you've got the ionic bonds - eg as in salt - that's not really a molecular structure at all. Then you've got weaker bonds holding the molecules together - eg hydrogen bonding in water and most molecules involved in life. Then you've got metals, which are something else altogether. Great lattices of metal atoms, with electrons whizzing about all over the place, all shared (hence electrical and thermal conductivity). You can squeeze some smaller atoms into the lattice - eg carbon for steel, and nitrogen, but that's as atoms - the Nitrogen doesn't exist as the gas molecule. Metals also tend to have a crystal structure - look eg at the surface of galvanized steel - where different lumps of these great lattices meet. cheers, clive You can squeeze some smaller atoms into the lattice. Or if we could split one!! now theres another thread! Clive, you obviously know tor molecules and atoms. Where you my physics teacher? cos I diddnt listen very well did I, D- Regards. Slim. No No No Please don't try to even crack open the main accumulator sphere with the pressure on, you only need to do this with the rear suspension spheres and this is to stop the cylinders from moving. To remove. Undo the 12mm bleed screw on the regulator by 2 turns max. Using a wrench, undo the sphere. Remove the O ring from the grove. Replacing, Fit the new O ring in the grove, Screw on the replacement sphere, as tight as you can get it by hand only. Start the engine and run for approx 2 mins Tighten the bleed screw. The best tool for the job is a band wrench from Pleiades www.pleiades.uk.com Or give them a ring on 01487 831239 I have used and abused mine for years and still aint broke it. Recon spheres ? How does that work then ? I have allways used recon spheres without any worries again from pleiades, the spheres are guaranteed for 2 years unlimited milage!! They dont have new membranes as they are sealed and I dont think that you could replace the membranes, but Pleiades tell me that the spheres are all inspected before re pressurising, thats why they can give them a long guarantee Sorry if this post comes out twice, but I had an error message with the first time I replyed!!! Regards. Slim. > If you are within reach of Chorlton cum Hardy, 'Westroen' (father and son > in a suburban semi) at 7, Nell Lane will replace all the spheres with > recon units at £25 each. Three year guarantee. > For another £40 they drain and replace the hydraulic fluid and change the > filters in the reservoir. All that while you wait in about an hour. It's > all they do and they know the job inside out. For that sort of money It's not worth buggering about doing it yourself. >> If you are within reach of Chorlton cum Hardy, 'Westroen' (father and son >> in a suburban semi) at 7, Nell Lane will replace all the spheres with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> > For that sort of money It's not worth buggering about doing it yourself. Is there a postcode at all for these guys as save me buggering about under the bonnet and all in the future :o) Ta, Will >>> If you are within reach of Chorlton cum Hardy, 'Westroen' (father >>> and son in a suburban semi) at 7, Nell Lane will replace all the >>> spheres with recon units at £25 each. Three year guarantee. >>> For another £40 they drain and replace the hydraulic fluid and >>> change the filters in the reservoir. All that while you wait in >>> about an hour. It's all they do and they know the job inside out. > Is there a postcode at all for these guys as save me buggering about > under the bonnet and all in the future :o) Do you need your nose blowing for you as well? http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=westroen >>>> If you are within reach of Chorlton cum Hardy, 'Westroen' (father >>>> and son in a suburban semi) at 7, Nell Lane will replace all the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=westroen Achoo ;o) Thank you :o) No No No Please don't try to even crack the main accumulator loose with the pressure up. You only need to do this with the rear suspension, this is to hold the cylinder still. To remove the main accumulator, Undo the bleed screw by a max of 2 turns, Using a suitable wrench undo the sphere. Remove the old O ring. Replacing. Put the new O ring in the grove first, Screw the replacement sphere on as tight as you can do it by hand. Start the car up and run for approx 2 mins Tighten the bleed screw. The best tool for the job is a band wrench from Pleiades www.pleiades.uk.com or give them a ring on 01487 831239, I have been using and abusing my band wrench for years and still aint broke it. Regards. Slim >> Has anyone got any tips on unscrewing these? I've just been trying to >> remove it and so far I've tried a Boa strap wrench with a rubber [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > depressurise the system and unscrew the sphere. Aha it's the pressurising bit it was missing. Ta muchly. I knew the back struts had to be pressurised before cracking the spheres but I didn't know about the accumulator. SignatureMalc Permitted to use the outs de lan >>> Has anyone got any tips on unscrewing these? I've just been trying >>> to remove it and so far I've tried a Boa strap wrench with a rubber [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I knew the back struts had to be pressurised before cracking the > spheres but I didn't know about the accumulator. works all round on sticky spheres, apparently, but wait for others to chip in with a solution. hth > Has anyone got any tips on unscrewing these? I've just been trying to remove > it and so far I've tried a Boa strap wrench with a rubber strap - too big [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > underside of the car. The system is depressurised by unscrewing the nut on > the regulator. There's your problem. Crack the sphere with the egnine running, the system pressurised. Crack the seal, and NO more. i.e. about 1/16th of a turn. Then depressurise. Tim.. >> Has anyone got any tips on unscrewing these? I've just been trying >> to remove it and so far I've tried a Boa strap wrench with a rubber [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Crack the seal, and NO more. i.e. about 1/16th of a turn. Then > depressurise. Let me guess - more than 1/4 turn and they unscrew themselves - FAST! > Let me guess - more than 1/4 turn and they unscrew themselves - FAST! Very FAST. For all of those asking about recon spheres, apparently it has been a bit of a bugger in the past to obtain new OEM parts and there is a good trade in recon spheres. The ones removed from your car go back to be worked on for reuse. There is no performance difference on the quality of the recon spheres compared to the OEM units, they work exactly the same way. Getting them off is the bugger though. The other fault that you can diagnose if you have a suspension issue is the pump unit. Apparently it ticks every so often as it adjusts but if the ticking rate is under 30 seconds or coming reasonably fast, the pump is suspect. Again, an easy change job if you have the time and inclination. The major killer though of the whole system is and always will be dirty suspension fluid which will just wreck the whole thing over time. PDH |
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