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Car Forum / Citroen Cars / March 2006Xantia rear suspension / timing belt
as subject, everything about the car is spot on except the rear suspension seems a little hard. the spheres are less than a year old and I've just had the LHM fluid replaced. there's plenty of waft up front but the rear seems a little stiff, there's less floatyness if you know what I mean and there's less give over bumps. the spheres are the correct 35psi ones and not 45psi. any ideas where to begin ? . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > as subject, everything about the car is spot on except the > rear suspension seems a little hard. the spheres are less [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > any ideas where to begin ? Rear arm bearings starting to break up? If you drop the car to flat, then raise it to full high, does it go up cleanly, with no creaking or jerkiness? Is the rear tyre wear even side-to- side? Front struts get sticky, too - again, jerkiness in rising is a visible symptom. > . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If you drop the car to flat, then raise it to full high, does it go up > cleanly, with no creaking or jerkiness? it does go up/down cleanly and smoothly but not as quick as the front. the front goes up first, quickly and even quicker now that the LHM has been replaced, then the back slowly follows. when I depressurise the system the front drops first and fast (engine weight) and the back eventually bottoms out after 10 to 20 seconds. > Is the rear tyre wear even side-to- side? it was, I put new tyres on all round last june and I did the weekly check today & they look fine. hardly any wear at all. > Front struts get sticky, too - again, jerkiness in rising is a visible > symptom. the front /does/ creak somewhat on the way up and the front rises in two or three jerks rather than a clean glide. I was going to grease the struts to see if that smoothed things out a bit but it's the rear that's niggling me. it's not quite right. I haven't checked the height for a while but when it was last at the main dealers for the service & spheres scam they did adjust and lube the rear height adjuster so I'm assuming it's within tolerance. the rear end floatiness gets much better with a full tank as if the spheres are working better with something to work against if that makes sense ? . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > it's not quite right. I haven't checked the height for a while but > when it was last at the main dealers for the service & spheres scam > they did adjust and lube the rear height adjuster so I'm assuming it's > within tolerance. Why ON EARTH are you letting a DEALER near it? > the rear end floatiness gets much better with a full tank as if the > spheres are working better with something to work against if that > makes sense ? Makes plenty of sense. > . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Why ON EARTH are you letting a DEALER near it? because when I bought it I noticed that all 4 spheres were under main dealer warranty so when I took it in for it's next service (to keep up with the full main dealer service stamps) and they pointed out that the spheres were in need of replacement I produced the warranty. their faces were a picture, I got them all replaced F.O.C and they're under warranty until may next year so: me 1 - main dealer -4 spheres. plus, I got a C5 (cool) for the day as a courtesy car, then a C2 (crap) when I had to take it back and after that a something picasso people carrier (rubbish) when I had to go back for the third time. that was the only time I've ever been near a main dealer and the last. >> the rear end floatiness gets much better with a full tank as if the >> spheres are working better with something to work against if that >> makes sense ? > > Makes plenty of sense. so it should, any solution to the rear end stiffness / lack of floatiness tho ? . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >>> it's not quite right. I haven't checked the height for a while but >>> when it was last at the main dealers for the service & spheres scam >>> they did adjust and lube the rear height adjuster so I'm assuming >>> it's within tolerance. >> Why ON EARTH are you letting a DEALER near it? > because when I bought it I noticed that all 4 spheres were under main > dealer warranty so when I took it in for it's next service (to keep up [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > people carrier (rubbish) when I had to go back for the third time. > that was the only time I've ever been near a main dealer and the last. Ah, furry muff. >>> the rear end floatiness gets much better with a full tank as if the >>> spheres are working better with something to work against if that >>> makes sense ? >> Makes plenty of sense. > so it should, any solution to the rear end stiffness / lack of > floatiness tho ? (Assuming correct spheres) Is the rear height correct? > . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Ah, furry muff. I'm not stupid ;-) >>>> the rear end floatiness gets much better with a full tank as if the >>>> spheres are working better with something to work against if that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > (Assuming correct spheres) the numbers on the rear spheres were checked by local independent citroen specialist and were the right poundage but for some reason, whoever he checked the numbers with "couldn't find them on the system" the cit specialist said that was unusual but couldn't elaborate. I'm dead suss and worried that the main dealer has put some dodgy spheres on, but I'm suspicious of almost everything. I had another cit specialist say 'they all ride differently' which made me wonder if he really was a specialist as they are all /engineered/ to ride the same, no ? > Is the rear height correct? again, the main dealers lubed & set the rear height adjuster last year so I'm guessing it's within tolerance. I /do/ think it may be riding slightly high but that's only by eye and comparing mine to other xantias as they go by. they /look/ like they are riding slightly lower than mine, maybe. . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > I'm not stupid ;-) <opens mouth> <closes mouth> >> (Assuming correct spheres) > the numbers on the rear spheres were checked by local independent > citroen specialist and were the right poundage but for some reason, > whoever he checked the numbers with "couldn't find them on the system" > the cit specialist said that was unusual but couldn't elaborate. I'm > dead suss and worried that the main dealer has put some dodgy spheres > on, but I'm suspicious of almost everything. There's much more to it that merely pressure - far more important is the damping. > I had another cit specialist say 'they all ride differently' which > made me wonder if he really was a specialist as they are all > /engineered/ to ride the same, no ? Heh. It's a hydraulic Cit. If the friggin' thing rides the same from one DAY to the next, it's a miracle. They're human, I swear it. My XM definitely has good and bad moods... In fact, I'm convinced it's female. >> Is the rear height correct? > again, the main dealers lubed & set the rear height adjuster last year > so I'm guessing it's within tolerance. I /do/ think it may be riding > slightly high but that's only by eye and comparing mine to other > xantias as they go by. > > they /look/ like they are riding slightly lower than mine, maybe. Considering a large proportion of Xants round here seem to be on stilts half the time... Get that tape measure out! The other possible is that the rear height corrector's a bit gunked internally. I very much doubt they stripped/reconditioned it. A quick squirt outside with brake cleaner and a blow over won't do it. You say it's been flushed through? How bad was the old LHM? How long was the flush left in for? > . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > >> I'm not stupid ;-) > > <opens mouth> > <closes mouth> good lad, keep it tidy. >>> (Assuming correct spheres) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > There's much more to it that merely pressure - far more important is > the damping. can you elaborate ? >> I had another cit specialist say 'they all ride differently' which >> made me wonder if he really was a specialist as they are all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > definitely has good and bad moods... In fact, I'm convinced it's > female. mine too. 'she' rides much better after a long run, of which I do many, but the xantia /was/ engineered to be a certain way and any drift away fom that ideal means a certain subset of faults need to be eliminated. >>> Is the rear height correct? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > internally. I very much doubt they stripped/reconditioned it. A quick > squirt outside with brake cleaner and a blow over won't do it. I've no idea what they actually did as you're not allowed in the bay and if I was it wouldn't have mattered as I was 300 miles away in teh C5 > You say it's been flushed through? no. just LHM replaced & return filter air blasted for £25 + vat but as a bonus, the guy actually managed to open the rear OS door which had been stuck shut for months and he lubed all the doors to be on the safe side and he did an oil/filter change for a fiver (labour) on a snowy wet day which saved me the hassle. he also confirmed slims 'take the inner panel off and smash the assembly off with a screwdriver' as being the only viable option. £45 for the lock thingy and an hour / hour and a half to do. > How bad was the old LHM? How long was the flush left in for? that's the last resort, flush and re LHM but I'm suspect of the spheres. I might even spank £50 on some of those recon jobs, see if that does it. as far as I'm aware, the LHM is the 'original' but the spheres have been replaced three times so some replacement has gone on if only through squirtage when changing the spheres. . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >> There's much more to it that merely pressure - far more important is >> the damping. > can you elaborate ? Normal car :- Springing is metal coil springs. Damping is "shock absorbers". Hydraulic cit :- Springing is pressurised nitrogen behind a rubber diaphragm in a metal sphere. Damping is a calibrated hole in a metal disk in the entrance to the sphere. Have a look at www.citroencarclub.org.uk/ds for the basic concepts - the vast majority of pump/suspension concepts are identical on a D to your Xant. >> You say it's been flushed through? > no. just LHM replaced & return filter air blasted Ah. Get it flushed. Get the old LHM out, clean reservoir and filters, put clean flush in, bleed the brakes through - leave it in for a thousand miles or so - then change back to LHM, again cleaning and bleeding. >> How bad was the old LHM? How long was the flush left in for? > that's the last resort, flush and re LHM That's the FIRST port of call. Any hydraulic Cit I buy gets flushed immediately. > but I'm suspect of the spheres. Not until you KNOW it's clean internally. > as far as I'm aware, the LHM is the 'original'but the spheres have > been replaced three times EEEEEK! DEFINITELY flush it properly, then. How many miles/what age? I change the LHM annually, but the XM's only recently onto the third set of spheres - at 120k/10yrs. <thinks> What spec's your Xant? Does it have Hippo? If so, could be a rear electrovalve issue. Does it have anti-sink? Did the anti-sink sphere get replaced? > . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Springing is metal coil springs. > Damping is "shock absorbers". knew that. > Hydraulic cit :- > > Springing is pressurised nitrogen behind a rubber diaphragm in a metal > sphere. knew that. > Damping is a calibrated hole in a metal disk in the entrance to the > sphere. callibrated ? ok, I knew there must be some regulator there. > Have a look at www.citroencarclub.org.uk/ds for the basic concepts - > the vast majority of pump/suspension concepts are identical on a D to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > bleed the brakes through - leave it in for a thousand miles or so - > then change back to LHM, again cleaning and bleeding. ok. >>> How bad was the old LHM? How long was the flush left in for? > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I change the LHM annually, but the XM's only recently onto the third > set of spheres - at 120k/10yrs. my xantia had it's third set of spheres at 78k > <thinks> > What spec's your Xant? Does it have Hippo? If so, could be a rear > electrovalve issue. 1.9TDi LX late '97 R (mechanically 100% and I had the trade over who was selling it by dumping an auction bought car on him and getting a three month warranty) > Does it have anti-sink? yes. > Did the anti-sink sphere get replaced? no. . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >> Damping is a calibrated hole in a metal disk in the entrance to the >> sphere. > callibrated ? ok, I knew there must be some regulator there. Yep, it's a tiny hole - you can drill it out a smidge to give a softer ride at the expense of increased wallow. >>> as far as I'm aware, the LHM is the 'original'but the spheres have >>> been replaced three times >> EEEEEK! >> DEFINITELY flush it properly, then. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> I change the LHM annually, but the XM's only recently onto the third >> set of spheres - at 120k/10yrs. > my xantia had it's third set of spheres at 78k And late '97 - somebody's priorities are definitely the wrong way round. >> <thinks> >> What spec's your Xant? Does it have Hippo? If so, could be a rear >> electrovalve issue. > 1.9TDi LX So we can rule out Hippo problems. >> Does it have anti-sink? > yes. >> Did the anti-sink sphere get replaced? > no. Do so. It does make a difference to the rear ride - but it's a pain in the tits to do. I dunno about Xant, but on XM it's exhaust off, rear subframe lowered. > . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Yep, it's a tiny hole - you can drill it out a smidge to give a softer > ride at the expense of increased wallow. when you say a smidge, what's that in mm ? >>>> as far as I'm aware, the LHM is the 'original'but the spheres have >>>> been replaced three times [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And late '97 - somebody's priorities are definitely the wrong way > round. eh ? >>> <thinks> >>> What spec's your Xant? Does it have Hippo? If so, could be a rear [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the tits to do. I dunno about Xant, but on XM it's exhaust off, rear > subframe lowered. I'll take that into consideration, thanks. Hi. I realy would not reccomend you drilling out the by pass hole in the centre of the damper, this is a calibrated hole measured in 0.1mm at a time. Lets face it, when Citroen designed you car, they spent time and lots of cash on research and development. Do you realy think that you can beat that with a box of drill bits and a Black & Decker?? Also when you are drilling, where will the swarf go?? most will come out through the flutes of the drill bit, but do you realy want to risk leaving some in? The tinyest piece of swarf in your hydraulic system could cost you loads. Changing the anti sink sphere will not make a blind bit of difference to the ride quality, although it will need changing if it aint been done yet. This sphere is used as a rear brake accumulator, but mainly comes into play when the pressure drops in the main hydraulic system, thus helping the car to stay up. Going back to the opening post, the sphere pressures are measured in bar, not psi, the correct spheres on your Xantia should have the 30 bar stamp on them. Supposing that the spheres are the correct ones and at the correct pressure, I would check, 1) The ride height, look along the car from a few yards away, does the sill look parralel with the ground? if it dont then adjust. 2)With the engine running, open the boot and jump in! the car will sink down, time it to see how long it takes to react. Next when the car has levelled off, jump out, the car will rise up, time it again to see how long it take to settle back down. What are the times?? It should have reacted within 10 seconds, a little longer will not cause a lot of bother, but if it takes ages the there a problem that needs fixing. A car with new height correctors on and clean LHM will react almost instant. 3) Check the rear suspension arm bearings, they do not allways crack or lean when gone, they can also get very stiff. Hope this helps in some way. Regards Slim I forgot to say, this maybe of some use www.citroen-hydraulics.com Regards Slim > Hi. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of cash on research and development. Do you realy think that you can > beat that with a box of drill bits and a Black & Decker?? no. Adrian did ;-) > Also when you are drilling, where will the swarf go?? most will come > out through the flutes of the drill bit, but do you realy want to risk > leaving some in? The tinyest piece of swarf in your hydraulic system > could cost you loads. agreed. > Changing the anti sink sphere will not make a blind bit of difference > to the ride quality, although it will need changing if it aint been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bar, not psi, the correct spheres on your Xantia should have the 30 > bar stamp on them. ok. will double check. it was a while ago that they were fitted. > Supposing that the spheres are the correct ones and at the correct > pressure, I would check, > > 1) The ride height, look along the car from a few yards away, does the > sill look parralel with the ground? if it dont then adjust. the cill looks paralell, it 'looks' like it's sat right but other xantias look lower at the back end. I've determined that the ride height ought to me 136mm and I'll check it after the weekend. > 2)With the engine running, open the boot and jump in! the car will > sink down, time it to see how long it takes to react. Next when the > car has levelled off, jump out, the car will rise up, time it again > to see how long it take to settle back down. hmm, ok. will do ! > What are the times?? It should have reacted within 10 seconds, a > little longer will not cause a lot of bother, but if it takes ages > the there a problem that needs fixing. A car with new height > correctors on and clean LHM will react almost instant. the rear end lifts it's self when I fill her up with diesel. just a bit but it does react but I once saw a very fat couple get into their xantia and the car almost sprang off the road, it really shot up v fast and levelled out quickly. that's probably why they bought a xantia ! > 3) Check the rear suspension arm bearings, they do not allways crack > or lean when gone, they can also get very stiff. at 96k would you expect them to be suss ? > Hope this helps in some way. I'm further along the path of citroen suspension enlightenment ;-) > Regards > Slim cheers . . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >> I realy would not reccomend you drilling out the by pass hole in the >> centre of the damper, this is a calibrated hole measured in 0.1mm at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> of cash on research and development. Do you realy think that you can >> beat that with a box of drill bits and a Black & Decker?? > no. Adrian did ;-) I said it could be done. I did not say it was a good idea... >> Also when you are drilling, where will the swarf go?? most will come >> out through the flutes of the drill bit, but do you realy want to >> risk leaving some in? The tinyest piece of swarf in your hydraulic >> system could cost you loads. > agreed. Hand drill and grease on the bit. >> 3) Check the rear suspension arm bearings, they do not allways crack >> or lean when gone, they can also get very stiff. > > at 96k would you expect them to be suss ? Not really. Mine are ok at 122k, but most of that has been with just me in it. Slim mentioned lean. For a quick check, stand behind the car and look at the rear wheels. They should be parallel (||) if they are leaning in slightly at the top (/\) the bearings have definitely worn.... Alan  SignatureWarning! - This newsgroup may contain nuts.... Mail sent to this address might get read....Eventually > Slim mentioned lean. For a quick check, stand behind the car and look at > the rear wheels. They should be parallel (||) if they are leaning in > slightly at the top (/\) the bearings have definitely worn.... By the time they get visible, though, they're utterly toast. They'll start cracking and wearing the tyres before that. If they are worn, this may be of help. http://citroen-hydraulics.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=9153576.64178*7S1eg5&produ ct=SuspensionArms Regards Slim. . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >> Yep, it's a tiny hole - you can drill it out a smidge to give a >> softer ride at the expense of increased wallow. > when you say a smidge, what's that in mm ? Bit bigger than a gnat's, bit smaller than a tidge. As Slim's pointed out - it's not a great idea unless you know what you're doing. You can buy "comfort" spheres, which are pretty much exactly that - spheres with bigger damper holes in. But, now that we know the LHM story on your car, anything other than flushing it through properly is a waste of time. >>> my xantia had it's third set of spheres at 78k >> And late '97 - somebody's priorities are definitely the wrong way >> round. > eh ? Spheres last plenty much longer than LHM. LHM is quick and simple to replace, and is good preventative for the rest of the system. > . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > can buy "comfort" spheres, which are pretty much exactly that - > spheres with bigger damper holes in. really ? any particular suppliers ? I'm all for having comfortable spheres ! > But, now that we know the LHM story on your car, anything other than > flushing it through properly is a waste of time. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > LHM is quick and simple to replace, and is good preventative for the > rest of the system. ok, but I've ony had the car x time and the spheres were replaced F.O.C so the priorities aren't mine to have the 'wrong way round' are they ? this is the first xantia I've owned having first driven one as a hire car when they first came out. . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >> You can buy "comfort" spheres, which are pretty much exactly that - >> spheres with bigger damper holes in. > really ? any particular suppliers ? I'm all for having comfortable > spheres ! GSF. But - from what you've said about the fluid - That Is Not Your Problem. Flush the hydraulics. Just Bloody Do It. >>>> And late '97 - somebody's priorities are definitely the wrong way >>>> round. >>> eh ? >> Spheres last plenty much longer than LHM. >> >> LHM is quick and simple to replace, and is good preventative for the >> rest of the system. > ok, but I've ony had the car x time and the spheres were replaced > F.O.C so the priorities aren't mine to have the 'wrong way round' > are they ? Woo. Touchy. Did I say they were your priorities? No. But changing the spheres again is not going to solve your problem, if the fluid's never been changed. After 8yrs and 100k miles, the fluid is going to be f.cked. It's going to be filthy internally. Change it for flush, do a thousand miles, then put clean LHM in. Just Bloody Do It. Stop worrying about the spheres. > . (-@-.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > But - from what you've said about the fluid - That Is Not Your > Problem. Flush the hydraulics. ok, will put it on the priority list. > Just Bloody Do It. chill, dude. >>>>> And late '97 - somebody's priorities are definitely the wrong way >>>>> round. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Woo. Touchy. Did I say they were your priorities? who's else is here ? me, you and the car. you, perhaps, ought to have said that the previous owner had their priorities teh wrong way round, no ? > But changing the spheres again is not going to solve your problem, if > the fluid's never been changed. After 8yrs and 100k miles, the fluid > is going to be f.cked. It's going to be filthy internally. Change it > for flush, do a thousand miles, then put clean LHM in. > > Just Bloody Do It. Stop worrying about the spheres. you're off again. Hi Sorry to but in again!! In my humble experience, and I have fitted loads and loads of spheres, from DS to C5 Comfort spheres are a placebo!! When a Citroen has knackered spheres on it you must agree that nothing is worse, so when the chap goes to get some more and the spotty teenager in the parts suppliers says "we can do you some comfort spheres for this" the owner thinks to himself, "well the bloody thing is so awfull that must be what I need" So he purchases the comfort spheres. When the spheres have been fitted, he goes out on a test drive and smiles to himself when he realises that the comfort spheres have sorted out all his troubles, the reccomends to his pals to ditch the spheres and fit comfort spheres. Little did he know that if he had fitted the correct spheres for the car, he would still have found it a marvelous difference and just as good a ride, but he would have kept the correct handling charcteristics of his car. Well thats my opinion and experience, cos I've tried both!! Some will disagree no doubt. Regards to all and have a good weekend. Slim. > In my humble experience, and I have fitted loads and loads of spheres, > from DS to C5 Comfort spheres are a placebo!! Not a placebo - they're masking a problem elsewhere. I've come across 'em most frequently on XMs with recalcitrant Hippo, so they're stuck in firm. > Little did he know that if he had fitted the correct spheres for the > car, he would still have found it a marvelous difference and just as > good a ride, but he would have kept the correct handling charcteristics > of his car. Especially if the LHM's filthy... I agree Yes the comfort spheres are used to mask a problem, but more often simply to avoid changing the 2 x suspension accumulators (XM & Xantia VSX) Also some people just cant get it that the LHM needs to be changed, would they leave the engine oil in for 8 years and 100k, Probabally not. The LHM is the most impotant bit in the system, keeping it clean will avoid all sorts of costly repairs. Cheers Slim. > more often simply to avoid changing the 2 x suspension accumulators (XM & > Xantia VSX) "Suspension accumulators"? There's still only one acc on a car with Hippo. (unless it's a LHD v6 XM with Diravi, which has a separate brake acc like SMs and CXs.) What there are is two centre spheres - one front, one rear, but they're not "accumulators". They're springing - they're the ones that get chopped out of circuit by the electrovalve for firm ride. It's usually a problem with the Hippo electronics that will stick it in PermaFirm. > Also some people just cant get it that the LHM needs to be changed, > would they leave the engine oil in for 8 years and 100k, Probabally > not. > > The LHM is the most impotant bit in the system, keeping it clean will > avoid all sorts of costly repairs. I think we have a consensus on this one, don't we? The question is, will Dot listen? Or will he keep wibbling about his spheres? All spheres are accumulators. this does not matter if they are to spring a Citroen, or to keep the cutting table level on a combine harvester. The two suspension accumulators I refer to are one by the steering rack and one at the back end in the middle, Citroen manuals refer to these as the suspension accumulator, or sometimes simply the extra sphere. I dont think that they knew what to call it. Wibble wibble wibble. Regards Slim > The two suspension accumulators I refer to are one by the steering rack > and one at the back end in the middle, Yeh, they're the ones. The Hippo centre spheres. > Citroen manuals refer to these > as the suspension accumulator, or sometimes simply the extra sphere. I > dont think that they knew what to call it. Surely not...? > Wibble wibble wibble. <g> >> more often simply to avoid changing the 2 x suspension accumulators >> (XM & Xantia VSX) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I think we have a consensus on this one, don't we? apparently, yes. and most informative it is too. > The question is only in your mind > will Dot listen? I'm all ears where good advice is freely given. > Or will he keep wibbling about his spheres? there you go again. > I agree > Yes the comfort spheres are used to mask a problem, but more often [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Cheers > Slim. will buy and 'install' the flushing oil as per the advice and specs as soon as I get back from where it is I'm going this weekend. |
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