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Car Forum / Citroen Cars / May 2006After veg oil, sugar waste
.-----<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/23/epsrc_hydrogen_project/> | Scientists build caramel-powered margarine-making fuel cell | Cadbury's E. coli hydrogen fermenter | By Chris Williams | Published Tuesday 23rd May 2006 14:31 GMT | Find your perfect job - click here for thousands of tech vacancies. | | Scientists from the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council | (EPSRC) have found that waste from confectionery production could be used | to produce useful amounts of hydrogen for electricity generation. The | feasibility study used sugar-rich waste from a Cadbury's factory to power | a fuel cell. | [...] '----- Please not that I do not condone the excessive consumption of sugar-based products, nor the use of 'hydrogenated vegetable oils' in any foodstuff. I wonder how much of Cadbury's sugar supply is imported at great environmental cost from distant countries who would have a more stable and self-reliant future if they grew food for themselves? I don't think that makes for a truly 'green' fuel ...  Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ I was reading <news:jnkek3-6af.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>, made by the entity known as Whiskers, that requests spam to be sent to <catwheezel@operamail.com> and I became inspired, > .-----<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/23/epsrc_hydrogen_project/> >> Scientists build caramel-powered margarine-making fuel cell [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > sugar-based products, nor the use of 'hydrogenated vegetable oils' > in any foodstuff. <chocaholic sounds follow> Thank you. No bad words about Cadbury. Been there, ate the bar and liked it. > I wonder how much of Cadbury's sugar supply is imported at great > environmental cost from distant countries who would have a more > stable and self-reliant future if they grew food for themselves? I > don't think that makes for a truly 'green' fuel ... If they use waste that else would go to waste it's green, and with a bit of luck, cheep. Honestly, There is no green fuel. Hydrogen perhaps. Anything that comes from plants to make a car move isn't green. The plants need a-lot-of chemicals to grow. To get enough fuel from plants to get all cars moved there would not be room for hungry man let alone for their vehicles. There isn't enough waste to produce enough gas to replace good old minerals. We are working on that though. Eat beans! Signatured:J0han; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup They killed the Credo. Viva el Credo! > I was reading <news:jnkek3-6af.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>, > made by the entity known as Whiskers, that requests spam to be sent to [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Honestly, > There is no green fuel. Hydrogen perhaps. Hydrogen isn't a 'fuel', so much as a means of storing energy: the energy used to extract the hydrogen from water or wherever. So hydrogen is only 'green' if it is extracted, compressed, and transported, using only 'renewable resources' of some sort - or at least something like wind, rain, tides, rivers, or geothermal energy, that is going to waste if it isn't 'used'. > Anything that comes from plants to make a car move isn't green. The > plants need a-lot-of chemicals to grow. I disagree about the need to have 'chemicals' to grow plants. While it is certianly possible to boost production in the short term by using lots of 'fertiliser' and 'pesticide', in the long term that only destroys the natural eco-systems that support life. Long term, agriculture will have to be 'organic' just for life on the planet to continue anything like the way we know it. > To get enough fuel from plants > to get all cars moved there would not be room for hungry man let alone > for their vehicles. True. We use cars and airoplanes far too much at present; I can remember when most people lived and worked and went shoping and went to school and so on, all within walking distance, here in the UK. For most of the world's people, that is still true. The crazy amount of travelling we in 'the west' do, is unsustainable even for us - it certainly isn't going to be possible for everyone in Africa, South Amaerica, and Asia, to do it too. > There isn't enough waste to produce enough gas to replace good old > minerals. We are working on that though. > Eat beans! Ah, yes, rocket power ============>>>>>>>> Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ I was reading <news:2v0fk3-fei.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>, made by the entity known as Whiskers, that requests spam to be sent to <catwheezel@operamail.com> and I became inspired, >> There is no green fuel. Hydrogen perhaps. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > least something like wind, rain, tides, rivers, or geothermal > energy, that is going to waste if it isn't 'used'. That's why I said: Perhaps. I guess it can be produced in hot sandy countries and make a profit. >> Anything that comes from plants to make a car move isn't green. The >> plants need a-lot-of chemicals to grow. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Long term, agriculture will have to be 'organic' just for life on > the planet to continue anything like the way we know it. But that would make the harvests even smaller than needed to fuel our economy. We're doomed. Signatured:J0han; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup Click -[ HERE ]- to continue..... > I was reading <news:2v0fk3-fei.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>, > made by the entity known as Whiskers, that requests spam to be sent to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's why I said: Perhaps. I guess it can be produced in hot sandy > countries and make a profit. Currently, Iceland is in the lead with using hydrogen in vehicles; they use geothermal power to extract hydrogen from water. They have a /lot/ of geothermal power oozing out under their feet, as Iceland is sitting right on top of the 'mid Atlantic rift' where molten rock is flowing out of the Earth's core and stretching the Atlantic ocean (and Iceland). Lots of volcanoes and 'geysers' and hot springs. New Zealand and Japan are also well endowed with such things. >>> Anything that comes from plants to make a car move isn't green. The >>> plants need a-lot-of chemicals to grow. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > We're doomed. Not yet. There is plenty of food to go round, but it isn't evenly distributed. We might have to learn to drink less coffee and tea, and eat less chocolate, and consume a bit less recreational cocaine and opium, and learn to eat only locally seasonal produce. Bio-fuel for vehicles would encourage a big increase in the growing of oil-producing crops, such as rape (also known as canola or colza, I think) or sunflowers. Olive oil and palm oil are a bit 'thick' for most diesel engines. We shall have to curtail much of our current travelling, if we are to rely on bio-fuel only and still expect not to starve. I don't think that fermenting sugar-rich crops to get alcohol for use as fuel will be efficient enough to sustain very many spark-ignition engines, although some of them could be run on methane collected from sewage-treatment and composting works. Such schemes already exist, the methane being used to drive electricity generators and the 'waste' heat being used for heating. When the fossil fuels run out, the production of artificial fertilisers will cease anyway. But nature seems to have arranged matters in such a way that animals produce exactly the sort of food that plants most want, and in pretty much the appropriate quantities to replace the plants that the animals ate. We used to be very good at re-cycling all that stuff; I'm sure we don't /have/ to wash most of it out to sea ... Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ > I was reading <news:jnkek3-6af.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>, > made by the entity known as Whiskers, that requests spam to be sent to [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > minerals. We are working on that though. > Eat beans! Not quite sure what this discussion is doing on this newsgroup (although we are getting v.good fuel economy out of my other half's 1.4 (petrol) C2!)... But here's my contribution... There is no green fuel. Period. No engine is 100% efficient. Any energy not being converted to movement is lost through sound and (mainly) heat. Heat is a pollutant. BTW, Just saw a program on "Global dimming": if we use clean energy sources that produce no chemical polution (soot, gas etc...), we will save lives (less famines and lung disease), but at the cost of even more global warming. Basically, we can't win. SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one >> I was reading <news:jnkek3-6af.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>, >> made by the entity known as Whiskers, that requests spam to be sent to [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > we are getting v.good fuel economy out of my other half's 1.4 (petrol) > C2!)... I think fuel and energy use and conservation in motor vehicles is On Topic, isn't it? :)) > But here's my contribution... > > There is no green fuel. Period. > > No engine is 100% efficient. Any energy not being converted to movement > is lost through sound and (mainly) heat. Heat is a pollutant. On that basis, all living creatures are guilty ;)) > BTW, Just > saw a program on "Global dimming": if we use clean energy sources that > produce no chemical polution (soot, gas etc...), we will save lives (less > famines and lung disease), but at the cost of even more global warming. > Basically, we can't win. That's entropy for you ... Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ (snip) >> There is no green fuel. Period. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > On that basis, all living creatures are guilty ;)) Yes, but the amount of heat generated by a car engine is, to use a techical phrase, a helluva lot. >> BTW, Just >> saw a program on "Global dimming": if we use clean energy sources [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's entropy for you ... Nope, nothing to do with entropy, I don't think... SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one > (snip) >>> There is no green fuel. Period. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yes, but the amount of heat generated by a car engine is, to use a > techical phrase, a helluva lot. Yes. >>> BTW, Just >>> saw a program on "Global dimming": if we use clean energy sources [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > Nope, nothing to do with entropy, I don't think... You just can't get around it; whatever one does, everything tends towards ultimate chaos. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~
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