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Car Forum / Citroen Cars / March 2007Diesel Starting Problem
Hi I have a Citroen Synergie 1999 1.9TD (60k miles) which isn't too relevant because it has a Peugeot engine which is fitted in lots of cars! Anyway, when I start it from cold the glow plug indicator lights up and goes out after about six seconds, if I try to start the car it just turns over. If I heat the glow plugs about 4 times, it is fine and will start (with some white/grey smoke, not much) If I run it for about 2 minutes, turn the engine off, it starts fine and will be fine for the rest of the day. Now, you instantly think it is the glow plugs, well....we had this problem last winter and had the glow plugs replaced and it seemed ok, but since it was getting warm, it wasn't really a problem over the summer, again the problem recurred and took the car to my mechanic, who charged me £35 for him to diagnose the problem with the computer so that he could fix it!!! He said two of the plugs had failed, strange, since they were just over 12 months old, oh well got them replaced and got the car back and it was fine and then after just a few days the problem is recurring. I have fitted a new battery as the currently fitted battery was 400 amps (but healthy), the new one is 700 amps. Is the problem could be to do with the glow plug relay burning the plugs out, as it is faulty. Or could this also have been because the battery was the wrong one? Help!! PS. I have learnt alot about diesels! > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I would say it's the plugs again. Take 'em out, put 'em across a 12v supply and they should glow red within 10 secs. If they don't they're knackered. I suppose if the plugs are on all the time they will fail quickly, that is to say that the relay is not cutting out after the appropriate time. You can probably check that by putting a meter or bulb across the plug which should light then go out after some 30 seconds or so. They will not necessarily go out when the light on the dash goes out, that's just to tell you it's OK to try to start the car. TonyB <snip> > or so. They will not necessarily go out when the light on the dash > goes out, > that's just to tell you it's OK to try to start the car. Total tosh! When the light goes out it does so because the relay has cut the power to both the warning light and the heater plugs - if the circuit worked as you suggest PSA could save a lot of money in parts and labour by just printing "After turning the steering column key to the 'On' position, count 10 seconds and then start the engine" in the drivers instruction manual....! :Jerry: wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the 'On' position, count 10 seconds and then start the engine" in the > drivers instruction manual....! Not necessarily tosh. Some cars keep the plugs on for a short while after the engine starts to help with cold running or so I'm told.  SignatureMalc You will pay for your sins. If you have already paid, please disregard this message. > :Jerry: wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Not necessarily tosh. Some cars keep the plugs on for a short while > after the engine starts to help with cold running or so I'm told. I've never come across that but then I've only been in the trade for 30 years so could have missed some applications I suppose... :Jerry: wrote: >> Not necessarily tosh. Some cars keep the plugs on for a short while >> after the engine starts to help with cold running or so I'm told. > > I've never come across that but then I've only been in the trade for > 30 years so could have missed some applications I suppose... On the Renault Megane, the glowplugs can remain on for up to three minutes after the engine has started depending on conditions. They stay on always for between ten and thiry seconds after the indicator light goes out and then depending on engine load and other conditions for a varying length of time. > :Jerry: wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > light goes out and then depending on engine load and other > conditions for a varying length of time. Fairy 'nough then, I assume this is on HDi engines, but considering that this thread is about a 1999 PSA diesel engine I hold to my original remark about the comment by TonyB. :Jerry: (INVALID@INVALID.INVALID) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >> On the Renault Megane, the glowplugs can remain on for up to three >> minutes after the engine has started depending on conditions. They >> stay on always for between ten and thiry seconds after the indicator >> light goes out and then depending on engine load and other >> conditions for a varying length of time. > Fairy 'nough then, I assume this is on HDi engines, Unlikely in a Megane... dCI, p'raps... > but considering that this thread is about a 1999 PSA diesel engine I hold > to my original remark about the comment by TonyB. Lovely, an' all. Shame the HDi has been around since '98 - a '99 Synergie could be either 1.9TD or 2.0HDi. :Jerry: wrote: >> :Jerry: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I've never come across that but then I've only been in the trade for >30 years so could have missed some applications I suppose... what a thread!!! ,just read it all ... just a question .. i find it funny that jerry has 30 years experience ,yet he's never heard of post heating!! regards mark > :Jerry: wrote: > >> :Jerry: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that jerry has 30 years experience ,yet he's never heard of post heating!! > regards mark I suppose if he has never had to deal with Diesel engines, he would be ignorant of the modern systems. Well, not quite modern, post heating goes back at least 15 years to my limited knowledge. >> :Jerry: wrote: >> >> :Jerry: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ignorant of the modern systems. Well, not quite modern, post heating goes > back at least 15 years to my limited knowledge. I've seen a smallish century-old marine diesel fitted with glow-plugs heated by a 'blow-torch' arrangement; the plugs would be kept hot until the engine was running smoothly. I think that counts as 'post heating'! (The starter-motor for the diesel, was a fairly large petrol engine). Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ >:Jerry: wrote: >>> :Jerry: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >that jerry has 30 years experience ,yet he's never heard of post heating!! >regards mark Hi mark can you help me with your peugeot knowledge, i have a 306 hdi that will take ebout 30to 60 seconds on the key to start if the battery dosnt go flat first, but it will start almost instantly with a tow. cheers jf > <snip> > > or so. They will not necessarily go out when the light on the dash [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the 'On' position, count 10 seconds and then start the engine" in the > drivers instruction manual....! No it's not total tosh, what you are saying is though. On all the PSA turbo diesel engines the light goes out after a few seconds to indicate that you should be able to start OK, but the heater plugs are kept on for up to a couple of minutes to reduce smoke output. They are turned off either when the temprature rises in the block enough, or the throttle is kept above a certain setting for a given period. >> <snip> >> > or so. They will not necessarily go out when the light on the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > the > throttle is kept above a certain setting for a given period. Can you cite that please? All the relays I've have come across turn both light and heater plugs off at the same time. > >> Total tosh! When the light goes out it does so because the relay > >> has [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Can you cite that please? All the relays I've have come across turn > both light and heater plugs off at the same time. Firstly, I am aware that the Haynes manual is not always absolutely correct, but the post heating is well documented in there. Secondly, if you look at the Bosch injection pump, you will see a small microswitch on the top, which is activated by the trottle arm. this is what turns the post heating off in some conditions. It is obviously very similar to the Megane engine in this respect. <snip> > Is the problem could be to do with the glow plug relay burning the > plugs out, as it is faulty. Or could this also have been because > the battery was the wrong one? The problem is probably the heater relay burning out. What happens with these units is that the relay load contacts start to burn, this in turn causes the relay to heat up, causing the bi-metal strip to switch the relay off to soon and acting as a resistor in the heater plugs supply - IOW a double whammy and a difficult engine to start from cold! > Is the problem could be to do with the glow plug relay burning the > plugs out, as it is faulty. Do you know what brand of glow plugs were put in a year ago? Some of them are cheap shite, and a year is a good innings... You said two of the newish ones have already been replaced - the other two could well have died. > Or could this also have been because the battery was the wrong one? Unlikely. The amp rating of the battery is mainly to do with the ability to spin the starter motor on a cold morning. The glow plugs won't draw anything like that much. > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Help!! PS. I have learnt alot about diesels! Hi, can't really help you with the starting problem except to say that I also have a 1999 TD Synergie and its good to know that I am not the only one on this forum that has one. I do find that if its been a cold night, then sometimes it will take 2 attempts to get mine running, I find that holding the clutch pedal down while turning the engine over seems to help.(no idea why this helps). My Synergie has 132,000 miles on the clock though ,so I allow it a little extra to get running. GGJ > I do find that if its been a cold night, then sometimes it will take 2 > attempts to get mine running, I find that holding the clutch pedal down > while turning the engine over seems to help.(no idea why this helps). Might be worth looking at getting the gearbox oil changed, perhaps a slightly thinner oil put in. What's happening is that - without the clutch depressed - the input shaft of the 'box is being spun by the starter along with the engine, and that's sapping some of the "oomph". > Gary G Jones (ggjggjnospam@btopenworld.com) gurgled happily, > sounding [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > along > with the engine, and that's sapping some of the "oomph". Err, except that you are placing a considerable side loading onto the crankshaft, many cars *wont* start with the clutch peddle depressed due to this, certainly putting a thinner oil might reduce 'drag' from the input shaft might you might just end up causing more friction when the oil breaks down in use and at high temperature!.... :Jerry: wrote: >> Gary G Jones (ggjggjnospam@btopenworld.com) gurgled happily, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the input shaft might you might just end up causing more friction when > the oil breaks down in use and at high temperature!.... How does depressing the clutch put a side load onto the crank? Can you say which cars won't start with the clutch depressed? I've driven hundreds of different makes/models and ALWAYS depress the clutch to start - so as to avoid false neutrals - and have never encountered even one that won't start. SignatureRegards Steve G > :Jerry: wrote: >>> Gary G Jones (ggjggjnospam@btopenworld.com) gurgled happily, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> temperature!.... > How does depressing the clutch put a side load onto the crank? If you need to ask that you must be clueless as to how a clutch works, or not thinking before pressing 'Send'...! If you are causing the release bearing to push against and hold the clutch diaphragm spring compressed (by depressing the clutch pedal) the crank will attempt to move way from the clutch cover, this movement will be within the crankcase and cause the crankshaft to be forced into heavy contact with crankshaft side thrust (end float control) bearings - this is why they are fitted, an engine doesn't need these thrust bearing unless there is a side thrust present. It's also possible to find the opposite happening if light pressure is applied to the clutch pedal were the engine has end float issues, you can find slight up and down movement of the clutch pedal. > Can you say which cars won't start with the clutch depressed? I've > driven hundreds of different makes/models and ALWAYS depress the > clutch to start - so as to avoid false neutrals - and have never > encountered even one that won't start. Many, of all makes and models, fresh from the factory all should start with the clutch depressed, 50 / 70k down the road some will still start OK whilst other won't. >> Can you say which cars won't start with the clutch depressed? I've driven >> hundreds of different makes/models and ALWAYS depress the clutch to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with the clutch depressed, 50 / 70k down the road some will still start OK > whilst other won't. Well my one has made it to 130,000+ so far. So I think its a little late to worry about it now, although like I said I don't always start it with the clutch pressed. GGJ :Jerry: wrote: >> :Jerry: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > with the clutch depressed, 50 / 70k down the road some will still > start OK whilst other won't. I'm neither clueless nor unthinking. I find it difficult to accept that the small additional side thrust encountered in the 5(ish) seconds that it takes to start the engine has a significantly higher effect than the side thrust encountered during normal running. Let's face it, it takes hardly any more time to start the car than to change gear - and you do that far more times than starting up. By your reckoning my Series 2a Land Rover with 460,000 miles on the clock should be on its 7th clutch by now, whereas it's actually on its second. Likewise, all the Discovery's I've owned should have been on their 2nd or 3rd - but were still running originals at 150k+. Ditto the current Xantia with 170k+ on its original clutch. BTW, the Xantia owners handbook says you should depress the clutch whilst staring the engine (petrol or diesel) in cold weather. SignatureRegards Steve G SteveG (_@_._) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > BTW, the Xantia owners handbook says you should depress the clutch > whilst staring the engine (petrol or diesel) in cold weather. Bear in mind that some modern cars actually have a starter inhibitor switch on the clutch pedal to PREVENT you starting the car unless the pedal's planted... <snip> > Bear in mind that some modern cars actually have a starter inhibitor > switch > on the clutch pedal to PREVENT you starting the car unless the > pedal's > planted... Your point being what exactly? All the above would mean is that any engine with faulty crankshaft side thrust bearings might never start! :Jerry: (INVALID@INVALID.INVALID) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >> Bear in mind that some modern cars actually have a starter inhibitor >> switch on the clutch pedal to PREVENT you starting the car unless the >> pedal's planted... > Your point being what exactly? All the above would mean is that any > engine with faulty crankshaft side thrust bearings might never start! And that every engine will quickly develop said f.cked thrust bearings... Unless, of course, you're Not Quite Correct on this one...? > :Jerry: (INVALID@INVALID.INVALID) gurgled happily, sounding much > like they [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Unless, of course, you're Not Quite Correct on this one...? I never said that all engines would be affected. I've known some engines that stalled the starter motor if the clutch was depressed at the same time, OTOH I've known cases were the end float on the crank was so bad that the clutch would not fully disengage (causing gear selection issues) but would start quite happily with the clutch depressed. Perhaps we are just seeing different sides if the trade, I know a couple of mechanics who have never come across a truly worn out engine due to only having worked in main dealers, although they have seen other faults that rarely get seen outside of main dealers IYSWIM? > SteveG (_@_._) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on the clutch pedal to PREVENT you starting the car unless the pedal's > planted... Just as I've never encountered a car exhibiting Jerry's non-starting due to excessive side thrust I've also never driven a car that MUST have the pedal depressed to start it. What have I missed out on? SignatureRegards Steve G >> SteveG (_@_._) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to excessive side thrust I've also never driven a car that MUST have the >pedal depressed to start it. What have I missed out on? i agree mate <snip> >>Just as I've never encountered a car exhibiting Jerry's non-starting >>due [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > i agree mate Two ignorant people don't change the facts though... :Jerry: (INVALID@INVALID.INVALID) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : > Two ignorant people don't change the facts though... Even when they're both you? :Jerry: wrote: ><snip> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Two ignorant people don't change the facts though... I'm not ignorant at all ... i accept all idea's i know i don't know everything and never will ,i work as a peugeot master technician..but yours jerry unfortunately come across as pure bollocks. You may have so many years experience ..but its obvious you haven't been doing the nitty gritty stuff. kind regards mark > :Jerry: wrote: >><snip> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > stuff. > kind regards mark You're a 'Peugeot master technician' then? That means you see only new or dealer maintained cars then, perhaps it's you who needs to do some nitty gritty stuff rather than spout the pure bollocks - if the dealer doesn't see the faults they can't exist... I once had an argument with a BMC/BL senior parts manager as he could not accept that one could have a loose gear on the distributor / oil pump drive of a Maxi engine - 'cos he had never ever had to supply one in all his years - until I showed him the faulty one I had on the bench behind the engine hanging off the crane in front. Or the Ford dealers workshop manager, in front of engineers from Dagenham, who had never seen an incorrectly drilled oil-way in a cylinder head before - even though his workshop staff had fitted three (yes, 3) camshafts to the same CVH engine in question under warranty - they couldn't understand why one of the cams failed within a few hundred miles - quite nice seeing senior Ford Motor Co. management giving a right bollocking to their dealers rep' in the middle of the workshop of a small inde garage... :~) :Jerry: wrote: >> :Jerry: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >bollocking to their dealers rep' in the middle of the workshop of a >small inde garage... :~) It sounds like the motor trade would be lost without you !. I do nitty gritty stuff EVERY day of my life so do all other master techs. we don't always just see dealer cars or dealer maintained ones. we see vehicles from some independent garages who don't have the knowledge to fix the vehicles (not their fault). Maxi engine and cvh engine probs wow SO WHAT?? you've spotted a fault a dealer couldn't ?? don't you think we see things other dealers or indep. have missed so what ?? its going to happen . Theirs only one ignorant person in here and im afraid its you .."In 30 years experience i haven't HEARD OF POST HEATING" . "Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance" :Jerry: wrote: > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Two ignorant people don't change the facts though... Your personal assessments of me have no bearing on this discussion. Making the statements that I must be clueless, unthinking or ignorant without any knowledge of me, my qualifications, experience or occupation speak volumes to everyone else in this newsgroup. To date, you have not produced one single fact: just anecdotal evidence from your experience, so here's a challenge for you. Name me just one car that has an inhibitor on the clutch pedal that means it won't start without the clutch depressed as a standard fit item and just one that works the opposite way. SignatureRegards Steve G In news:QNiJh.3846$DX5.3748@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk, SteveG <_@_._> wittered on forthwith; >> Jerry: wrote: >> <snip> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > means it won't start without the clutch depressed as a standard fit > item and just one that works the opposite way. The Renault Megane with the silly keycard thing won't start unless you have either the clutch or brake pedal depressed. I had an Alfa once that wouldn't start no matter what you did to the clutch pedal :-) SignaturePete M - Using the Scouse Side of the Force - Golf GTi, Mercedes 190E Auto OMF#9 Currently listening to "The Dead Class - Boo" > I had an Alfa once that wouldn't start no matter what you did to the > clutch pedal :-) I thought that was normal for Alfas? SignatureMalc "Bother!" said Pooh, and hid Piglet's corpse http://farcanal.biz/ > In news:QNiJh.3846$DX5.3748@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk, > SteveG <_@_._> wittered on forthwith; [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I had an Alfa once that wouldn't start no matter what you did to the clutch > pedal :-) That's it, Pete, go and spoil it for me :-) Here I am amusing myself baiting Jerry and you go ruin it <BCG> The Megane is so ugly (at least it's rear end is) they should have put n inhibitor on it so that it wouldn't start unless you were a registered scrap merchant. No offence intended if you own and/or like the back end of the Megane :-)) Can you imagine the read end of the Megane married to the front end of a Fiat Multipla? Now that would be seriously ugly! SignatureRegards Steve G >Just as I've never encountered a car exhibiting Jerry's non-starting due >to excessive side thrust I've also never driven a car that MUST have the >pedal depressed to start it. What have I missed out on? I have found only one. In 1991 I drove a Citroen AX330 (cheaper version of a 2CV) and it did not start with the clutch depressed due to the side thrust. I do think its a bit extreme to assume not using the clutch to start a modern car would be a standard practice though. I dont think it really matters and its safer to always depress the pedal. SignatureEduardo K. | Roses are #FF0000 http://www.carfun.cl | Violets are #0000FF http://ev.nn.cl | All my base Are belong to you | > In 1991 I drove a Citroen AX330 (cheaper version of a 2CV) A *what*...? <thinks> Hold on a minute... .CL - Chile? Some local variant of a 2cv? I know there were a few. >> In 1991 I drove a Citroen AX330 (cheaper version of a 2CV) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Some local variant of a 2cv? I know there were a few. Adrian, ferchristsake... http://www.citroenet.org.uk/foreign/latin-america/chile/chile.html >> In 1991 I drove a Citroen AX330 (cheaper version of a 2CV) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Some local variant of a 2cv? I know there were a few. Yup. Made in Chile. I now drive (besides a BX and a Xantia) a 1979 Chilean assembled GS Club. http://usuarios.lycos.es/citroen3cv/histchile.htm SignatureEduardo K. | Roses are #FF0000 http://www.carfun.cl | Violets are #0000FF http://ev.nn.cl | All my base Are belong to you | >> Just as I've never encountered a car exhibiting Jerry's non-starting due >> to excessive side thrust I've also never driven a car that MUST have the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > car would be a standard practice though. I dont think it really matters and > its safer to always depress the pedal. Eduardo, that doesn't count. My response was to Adrian who said that some cars are fitted with an inhibitor. Excessive side thrust that prevents and engine starting may be an effective inhibitor but Citroen didn't design it in as a feature :-) Nice try though :-) SignatureRegards Steve G >>> Just as I've never encountered a car exhibiting Jerry's >>> non-starting due to excessive side thrust I've also never driven a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > prevents and engine starting may be an effective inhibitor but > Citroen didn't design it in as a feature But it does prove that I am correct and you an ignorant idiot for doubting that the fault can exist! <snip> > I'm neither clueless nor unthinking. Well we will have to agree to dis-agree on that then... :Jerry: wrote: > <snip> >> I'm neither clueless nor unthinking. > > Well we will have to agree to dis-agree on that then... Yawn. You're becoming repetitive and boring. SignatureRegards Steve G > :Jerry: wrote: >> <snip> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yawn. You're becoming repetitive and boring. Wow, it's taken five days for you to think of a 'come back', your brain must be really hurting! :Jerry: wrote: >> :Jerry: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Wow, it's taken five days for you to think of a 'come back', your > brain must be really hurting! Not really, I just didn't see your post SignatureRegards Steve G In news:5REHh.160$DX5.65@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk, SteveG <_@_._> wittered on forthwith; >> Jerry: wrote: >>> Gary G Jones (ggjggjnospam@btopenworld.com) gurgled happily, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > clutch to start - so as to avoid false neutrals - and have never > encountered even one that won't start. BMW, Mercedes and Ford very often instruct you in the handbook to depress the clutch when starting. There are also a few cars about that won't start *unless* the clutch is depressed. SignaturePete M - Using the Scouse Side of the Force - Golf GTi, Mercedes 190E Auto OMF#9 Currently listening to "The Dead Class - Boo" > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > months old, oh well got them replaced and got the car back and it was fine > and then after just a few days the problem is recurring. You could still have some faulty glow plugs. There are two types of plug made for these engines, the type for the turbo are made to stay on longer each start, so will last longer overall. Do not get the plugs for the non turbo model. It is also possible that you have a faulty glow plug relay, in that the light still comes on, but no power is actually being supplied to the plugs. The only way to test for this is with a voltmeter attached to one of the plugs while you turn on the ignition. You can also check the individual plugs by measuring the resistance of each, but you have to disconnect each one in turn from the supply cable. Faulty pugs will normally be open circuit. Normal resistance cold is under one ohm. Blimey, I wish I had never even mentioned pressing down the clutch on a cold morning and then starting the engine. GGJ > Blimey, I wish I had never even mentioned pressing down the clutch on a cold > morning and then starting the engine. > GGJ But Gary, you've given us such entertainment. Consider it an act of kindness to provide such an interesting tangent to explore :-) SignatureRegards Steve G > > Blimey, I wish I had never even mentioned pressing down the clutch on a cold > > morning and then starting the engine. > > GGJ > > But Gary, you've given us such entertainment. Consider it an act of > kindness to provide such an interesting tangent to explore :-) Actually disengaging the clutch before starting is a requisite on many bikes now, could be some American legislation or something. Perhaps Jerry is a bike mechanic? <snip> > Actually disengaging the clutch before starting is a requisite on > many bikes > now, could be some American legislation or something. Perhaps Jerry > is a > bike mechanic? I suggest that you learn how to read (the thread)!... Is there any chance we could stop the "I'm cleverer than you" argument? I'm getting bored with it now. You lot will have to try much harder to entertain me. SignatureMalc "Bother!" said Pooh, and hid Piglet's corpse http://farcanal.biz/ |
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