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Car Forum / Citroen Cars / May 2006Veggie oil - the truth.
Having scanned though the previous thread I figure that you guys should really know the real life experiences of a close relative and his good friend who both run Xants on oil. Three have been used extensively, a bog standard 19, a 19 Turbo, and a series 2 2.1 Turbo. The 19 turbo has now been running on exclusively oil for over a year - no diesel at all except when in a dire "Oh sh*t no fuel!!" situation. The 19 was run for about a year and the 2.1 has now been going for about 9 months. All on the same exclusive-except-emergency basis. None of the cars has been modified in any way shape or form (except the addition of a cleverly shaped funnel in the boot for topping up!!!). None of the cars has experienced any failure of any fuel related component. None of the cars has failed to start (and we live in a northerly climate!), they are however just a little sluggish to start on *very* cold winter mornings (say minus 5 and below...) The tax aspect is interesting, it is a completely unenforcable law in the UK, remember to prosecute they need the evidence, the only evidence they have is the volume of oil in your tank. As it is a tax issue, all they can do is bill you for the tax and prosecute if you don't pay. Running your car on oil IS NOT AND WILL NOT EVER BE ILLEGAL IN THE UK. So where does this leave you? In a very good position as it goes. If you get pulled and have your tank dipped, plod will try to convince you that it is illegal - it just isn't, tell him so (if it comes out with a pinkish tinge you *are* stuffed as agricultural and heating diesel *IS* illegal...). All plod can do is tell H.M. C&E that you have a tank full of oil and it is up to them to recover the duty due ON THAT TANKFUL, there is no other concrete evidence that you have used or will use more oil. When you tell them that their cost to recover that duty is going to be more than the duty itself, you should hear no more. If you do hear more, keep pushing the point that it is costing them more and more money to recover the piffling amount of tax and that it wouldn't look good if it hit The Sun... ...keep going right up until the point where they give you the "Stump up within 7 days or we will take you to court" letter then send them the cheque for the couple of quid that they will be asking for and make the point again that it has just cost them X-hundred pounds of tax payers money to recover £2.74 in tax etc... ...you will hear no more!!! Even if you do get stopped again, all you will have to pay is the duty on the amount of oil you have in your tank at the time assuming that your protestations about tax payers money etc etc... So what else to you need to know? Not a lot except that you do get *very* funny looks buying an entire trolleyful of Tesco's cheapest!!! And yes, your car does smell... *appetising*!!! I once followed one of these Xants for about 40 miles and I was STARVING by the time we reached our destination... Happy oil burning guys! CAS PS. Anyone got a 2.5 XM in SEI spec they want to sell me? I could use a bit of cheap luxurious motoring! >Having scanned though the previous thread I figure that you guys should >really know the real life experiences of a close relative and his good >friend who both run Xants on oil. <snip> >The tax aspect is interesting, it is a completely unenforcable law in the >UK, remember to prosecute they need the evidence, the only evidence they >have is the volume of oil in your tank. As it is a tax issue, all they can >do is bill you for the tax and prosecute if you don't pay. Running your car >on oil IS NOT AND WILL NOT EVER BE ILLEGAL IN THE UK. <snip> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2312521.stm  SignatureIan Message i.d.:<news:e6jpl1lrc57u03mc51okc3a35he8ie4hpp@4ax.com>, by author Ian Dalziel aka <iandalziel@lineone.net> inspired me, > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2312521.stm On a weird way the link confirms, vegetable oil is popular and probably safe to use. Dodging taxes, a sport for some, is easier with a diesel engine. I am not sure how the Dutch Customs treat the veggiedrivers. Signatured:Johan; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup [18 lines] [Press ENTER to retrieve this message.] [Press M to mark this message for later retrieval.] > >Having scanned though the previous thread I figure that you guys should > >really know the real life experiences of a close relative and his good [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2312521.stm Journo's hey! Just cos the Beeb says it doesn't mean its right. As I said, red diesel = illegal, bio diesel = perfectly fine. Tax evasion = illegal and carries the penalties noted in the article. Stump up the tax and you haven't committed any offence. As to the impounding of cars, well that is quite frankly a joke - how can you (if you decided to) legitimately stump up your fuel duty on spec? If plod continues doing this they may well arrest the wrong bloke and end up paying substantial compo... CAS >> > The tax aspect is interesting, it is a completely unenforcable law >> > in the UK, remember to prosecute they need the evidence, the only >> > evidence they have is the volume of oil in your tank. As it is a >> > tax issue, all they can do is bill you for the tax and prosecute if >> > you don't pay. Running your car on oil IS NOT AND WILL NOT EVER BE >> > ILLEGAL IN THE UK. >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2312521.stm > Journo's hey! Just cos the Beeb says it doesn't mean its right. If you don't mind, I'll go with the Beeb over "some bloke on the net"... > As I said, red diesel = illegal, bio diesel = perfectly fine. If you pay the tax. > Tax evasion = illegal and carries the penalties noted in the article. Right. So biodiesel without paying the tax = illegal. > Stump up the tax and you haven't committed any offence. Stump up the tax on *all they believe you've used*... This is HMC&E (Well, HMR&C this week) - The VAT Man. They don't have to knock. They don't have to say please. You do NOT piss around with them, because they won't piss around with you. And don't forget that if you're caught using Veg *without* having told HMR&C that you're going to be, you are already committing an offence. You may like to read this :- http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal ?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&propertyType=document&id=HMCE _CL_000205 (http://tinyurl.com/a6x2f) >>> > The tax aspect is interesting, it is a completely unenforcable law >>> > in the UK, remember to prosecute they need the evidence, the only [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > If you don't mind, I'll go with the Beeb over "some bloke on the net"... hehehe - fair enough!!! >> As I said, red diesel = illegal, bio diesel = perfectly fine. > > If you pay the tax. No. That is not the point I'm making. Having red diesel in your tank at any time is illegal. Having chip oil in your tank is simply NOT illegal. The only offence is not paying road fuel duty on it. Plod should not be impounding cars at the roadside - THAT is illegal!!! >> Tax evasion = illegal and carries the penalties noted in the article. > > Right. So biodiesel without paying the tax = illegal. Yes, correct. Chip fat in tank = legal. Driving car with chip fat in tank and not paying duty = illegal. >> Stump up the tax and you haven't committed any offence. > > Stump up the tax on *all they believe you've used*... This is HMC&E (Well, > HMR&C this week) - The VAT Man. They don't have to knock. They don't have > to say please. You do NOT piss around with them, because they won't piss > around with you. Yes they do have to say please. The HM C&E are legally bound by tax and common law the same as every other person, company or agency in the United Kingdom. They cannot tax you on income they cannot prove you have earned, they cannot tax you on fuel they cannot prove you have used. Simple as that, its the law. > And don't forget that if you're caught using Veg *without* having told > HMR&C that you're going to be, you are already committing an offence. That seems to be the case, however it could (and should) be easily argued that as this is becoming more commonplace the C&E should be issuing notices, advertisments etc relating to the obligation of the user. Until they do a decent brief will get you off... > You may like to read this :- > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (http://tinyurl.com/a6x2f) Excellent find that man!! Particularly the part where if you register, they send you a form every month which you send back as NILL until the month where you get your tank dipped at which point you declare how much was in your tank at the time... perfect! You then continue to send in NILLs and when they ask you say "I'm using diesel - I can't be arsed getting stopped". When you get dipped again, "I decided that actually I might give it another go...", etc, etc... CAS wow the C&E have some forms dont they ... I cannot fond the one to which you refer ?? sound like a good wheeze to me ... I'm so happy to have halved my fuel lbill since selling the Volvo (T5 .. mmmmm ....) - halving it again would really help !!! Brgds Steve PS - how do you do those replies with all the >> etc ??? >>>> > The tax aspect is interesting, it is a completely unenforcable law >>>> > in the UK, remember to prosecute they need the evidence, the only [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > CAS > PS - how do you do those replies with all the >> etc ??? Any decent news client will do that - together with posting your reply at the bottom, where it should be. It won't do the trimming of excess rubbish, though - you need to do that yourself. <checks headers> Ah. You're using Outlook Express. That explains it all... >> PS - how do you do those replies with all the >> etc ??? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > <checks headers> > Ah. You're using Outlook Express. That explains it all... Yebut so do I. My version of OE seems to put the appropriate symbols in etc. and posts at the bottom and I've never had a problem with it doing otherwise on all the versions I've used. SignatureMalc No evil genius is available to take your call at this time. Please record your world domination plans and we will return your call as soon as possible. >>> PS - how do you do those replies with all the >> etc ??? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and posts at the bottom and I've never had a problem with it doing otherwise > on all the versions I've used. So does drd's version; but he's fallen into the 'cursor at the top of the body' trap and probably hasn't noticed the reams of quoted stuff below his message. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ >>> PS - how do you do those replies with all the >> etc ??? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > etc. and posts at the bottom and I've never had a problem with it doing > otherwise on all the versions I've used. aha - like this huh? apologies for past lack of netiquette .... best regards to all Steve >> Yebut so do I. My version of OE seems to put the appropriate symbols in >> etc. and posts at the bottom and I've never had a problem with it doing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > apologies for past lack of netiquette .... Yes but you also need to snip signatures too, otherwise you still get another couple of lines of crap creeping in (and there's usually crap in my sig) SignatureMalc No evil genius is available to take your call at this time. Please record your world domination plans and we will return your call as soon as possible. snip > You may like to read this :- > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (http://tinyurl.com/a6x2f) That seems to be definitive as far as the UK fuel duty regulations go; essentially you have to register in advance and then make monthly returns (including NIL returns) for all oil used as road vehicle fuel, and pay the duty due within 15 days of the end of each month. The tax man can inspect your 'premises' (but not private dwellings) and vehicles, and you must make sure that the oil used is within the chemical composition set down. Your measurements must also be up to standard, and if you use any special recipe then you may have to comply with 'health and safety' and pollution regulations too. You have to keep your records for at least six years. At present, there is no on-line facility for the monthly declarations or payments (and when there is, don't be too surprised if it only works properly for certain web-browsers and doesn't work at all half the time). If you buy the oil in the bottles or cans used for selling domestic or commercial cooking oil, I would guess that the quantities marked on those containers would be 'accurate enough' for declaring fuel tax; that would be a point to discuss further with your friendly tax-collector, perhaps, along with the little matter of the chemical composition of each batch. Presumably, if a police or tax spot-check reveals that there is veggie oil in your tank, production of your fuel-tax documents and receipts should be accepted as evidence that you are not breaking the law. If the police are impounding vehicles on the spot, you'd better have those papers with you. A letter to the local Chief Constable stating that you use vegetable oil as road fuel and that you comply with the taxation regulations, and asking for his reassurance in writing that your vehicle will not be impounded, might be a good idea. It might even get the local cops to run their noddy-cars on it too :)) The vehicle maker is probably best placed to advise what if any alterations would be sensible for running on 'straight vegetable oil'. I wouldn't put it past the garage trade to charge heavily for work that isn't really necessary - or even for not actually doing anything. The handbook for my ZX 1.9D states that only 5% vegetable oil added to normal diesel fuel is 'within specification'. I don't know what the basis for that statement is; perhaps Citroen are covering their back by not seeming to encourage people to use 'alternative' fuels. As a side note, I remember that when I lived in Salford in the '70s there was a garage near Manchester city centre that sold ICI 'synthetic petrol' at the pumps; my 2CV was perfectly happy running on it, although it was inclined to 'foam up' when filling the tank. I believe that was a 'by-product' from some chemical process. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ Looks like a case of find your local biodiesel supplier buy a tankful and keep the receipt in your car. When you get pulled by the plod present the biodiesel receipt as 'evidence' that the car contains legitimate tax paid chip fat, drive away. Many biodiesel outlets are selling 5% mixes (5% vegetable oil, 95% derv) but there are an increasing amount selling pure biodiesel which presumably would smell just as bad (or good depending on what you're opinion is) as regular cooking oil unless they're treating it in some way. Check out: http://www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk/outlets.htm for details of your local tax paid supplier. Regards, Jason. >>Having scanned though the previous thread I figure that you guys should >>really know the real life experiences of a close relative and his good [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2312521.stm --- Replace nntp with my name to reply. N0 5pAm H3r3: Include this tagline to pass my spam filter. Message i.d.:<news:3s3shqFm9j6lU1@individual.net>, by author CAS aka <calumscottREMOVETHISBIT@yahoo.com> inspired me, > *very* funny looks buying an entire trolleyful of Tesco's > cheapest!!! And yes, your car does smell... *appetising*!!! I > once followed one of these Xants for about 40 miles and I was > STARVING by the time we reached our destination... The smell is awfull and now that I know how it smells, I have smelled it before quite often. Signatured:Johan; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup IHUMFA > Message i.d.:<news:3s3shqFm9j6lU1@individual.net>, > by author CAS aka <calumscottREMOVETHISBIT@yahoo.com> inspired me, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The smell is awfull and now that I know how it smells, I have smelled > it before quite often. I'm sure that some heavy lorries are using it. I drove over 200 miles yesterday and some of the smells were distinctly un-diesel. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ > So what else to you need to know? Not a lot except that you do get > *very* funny looks buying an entire trolleyful of Tesco's cheapest!!! Indeed. Surely it'd make far more sense to go down the cash & carry to get it by the 20l drum? Or even talk to the chippy, find out who he uses as a wholesaler? I'd imagine they'd be QUITE happy delivering (say) 100+ litres per month...? Message i.d.:<news:Xns96FA97CA2A47Eadrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170>, by author Adrian aka <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> inspired me, >> So what else to you need to know? Not a lot except that you do get >> *very* funny looks buying an entire trolleyful of Tesco's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to get it by the 20l drum? Or even talk to the chippy, find out who > he uses as a wholesaler? I guess chippies (the English I learn in this newsgroup,,) use hard fat, not liquid. It only becomes liquid when it's used for some time. Now those hard lumps are hard to squeeze into the tank. > I'd imagine they'd be QUITE happy delivering (say) 100+ litres per > month...? Out here you need to know someone that knows someone with a special card. Those cards are only available for companies and give access to wholesales with friendly prices. Gonna try, I know someone :-) Signatured:Johan; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup Random sigs should be banned from Usenet >> Indeed. Surely it'd make far more sense to go down the cash & carry >> to get it by the 20l drum? Or even talk to the chippy, find out who >> he uses as a wholesaler? > I guess chippies (the English I learn in this newsgroup,,) use hard > fat, not liquid. No, they use big 20l drums of liquid vegetable oil. > Out here you need to know someone that knows someone with a special > card. Those cards are only available for companies and give access to > wholesales with friendly prices. Hmmm. I wonder where I put my membership card for Makro (big cash&carry chain) in Agadir, Morocco. I must see how far it gets me with Makro UK... >>> Indeed. Surely it'd make far more sense to go down the cash & carry >>> to get it by the 20l drum? Or even talk to the chippy, find out who [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, they use big 20l drums of liquid vegetable oil. Sadly true; real lard is rarely used by chippies these days. Probably because the oil is so much easier to handle. snip Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ > Sadly true; real lard is rarely used by chippies these days. Probably > because the oil is so much easier to handle. Together with health concerns over saturated fats, and veggies not liking chips cooked in cow. The message <ab3433-03c.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net> from Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> contains these words: > > No, they use big 20l drums of liquid vegetable oil. > Sadly true; real lard is rarely used by chippies these days. Probably > because the oil is so much easier to handle. Not really. They have to cater for Vegetarians, Muslims and other Ethic minorities TAAAW. SignatureRod >> > No, they use big 20l drums of liquid vegetable oil. >> Sadly true; real lard is rarely used by chippies these days. Probably >> because the oil is so much easier to handle. > Not really. They have to cater for Vegetarians, Muslims and other Ethic > minorities TAAAW. I'm not convinced that Veggies count as an ethnic minority... >>> > No, they use big 20l drums of liquid vegetable oil. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I'm not convinced that Veggies count as an ethnic minority... Nor do Muslims. SignatureIan >>> Not really. They have to cater for Vegetarians, Muslims and other >>> Ethic minorities TAAAW. >>I'm not convinced that Veggies count as an ethnic minority... > Nor do Muslims. Indeed. Not with somewhere around 200,000 (15% or so) UK Muslims being "white". The rest are a mix of ethnic groups - Subcontinent, Arab, sub- Saharan "black" and gawd knows what else. But I think they might be able to lay a better claim on the term that lentil-munchers. The message <ugsvl1d2cqq2ehhlq6afvgu5bo4togjaap@4ax.com> from Ian Dalziel <iandalziel@lineone.net> contains these words: > >>> > No, they use big 20l drums of liquid vegetable oil. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > >I'm not convinced that Veggies count as an ethnic minority... > Nor do Muslims. Re-read my post. I did not write Ethnic!!!!!!! SignatureRod >> >> Not really. They have to cater for Vegetarians, Muslims and other >> >> Ethic minorities TAAAW. >> >I'm not convinced that Veggies count as an ethnic minority... >> Nor do Muslims. > Re-read my post. I did not write Ethnic!!!!!!! <re-reads> <rubs eyes> <re-reads> <rubs eyes> <re-reads> Indeed you did not... The message <Xns96FD62113E24Aadrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170> from Adrian <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> contains these words: > >> >> Not really. They have to cater for Vegetarians, Muslims and other > >> >> Ethic minorities TAAAW. > >> >I'm not convinced that Veggies count as an ethnic minority... > >> Nor do Muslims. > > Re-read my post. I did not write Ethnic!!!!!!! > <re-reads> > <rubs eyes> > <re-reads> > <rubs eyes> > <re-reads> > Indeed you did not... :-) SignatureRod > The message <ab3433-03c.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net> > from Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Not really. They have to cater for Vegetarians, Muslims and other Ethic > minorities TAAAW. OK, I'm flummoxed again; TAAAW? Even <http://www.noslang.com/> doesn't know that one. Actually, chippies don't /have/ to cater for 'minorities'; it might be good business to do so where a minority predominates, of course. I'd be surprised if a typical chippy were to be Halal, or Kosher for that matter, whatever the frying medium is, and certainly not vegetarian (unless there is a seperate vegetables-only fryer). Around here, the chippies are mostly run by a 'minority', ie 'Chinese'. They seem to be quite happy dealing with pork, shellfish, squid, or anything else vaguely edible - all in the same wrapper if you want. I think some of our fried chicken and 'kebab' purveyors could be of a Moslem persuasion, and a Hindu/Buddhist vegetarian restaurant managed to survive for a few years. We can also get curried goat and other 'West Indian' delights (or indeed, whole goats from some of our butchers). Strangely, the native 'jellied eels' and 'pie and mash' are not in evidence at all. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ The message <mcq633-76d.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net> from Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> contains these words: > OK, I'm flummoxed again; TAAAW? Too, Also, And As Well. A somewhat overly re-inforcement of a point. :-) SignatureRod > The message <mcq633-76d.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net> > from Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Too, Also, And As Well. A somewhat overly re-inforcement of a point. > :-) I've been reading uk.rec.sheds for so long I didn't even notice the TAAAW! SignatureMalc No evil genius is available to take your call at this time. Please record your world domination plans and we will return your call as soon as possible. >> The message <mcq633-76d.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net> >> from Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > I've been reading uk.rec.sheds for so long I didn't even notice the TAAAW! I wondered why Google wanted to send me to the shed when I sought enlightenment. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ >> So what else to you need to know? Not a lot except that you do get >> *very* funny looks buying an entire trolleyful of Tesco's cheapest!!! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I'd imagine they'd be QUITE happy delivering (say) 100+ litres per > month...? ... if your local chippy uses vegetable oil he might pay you to take the used stuff off his hands for you to filter and use as fuel. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ > ... if your local chippy uses vegetable oil he might pay you to take the > used stuff off his hands for you to filter and use as fuel. No, it needs more than that, there is animal fat and other contaminants in used chip fat. >> ... if your local chippy uses vegetable oil he might pay you to take the >> used stuff off his hands for you to filter and use as fuel. > > No, it needs more than that, there is animal fat and other contaminants in > used chip fat. Yeah, a lot of places use an oil/fat mix. However, if it is liquid at the apropriate temperature for your climate there is no reason why it can't be used as fuel. Animal fat burns just the same as veggie oil or diesel. The trouble with used is getting the crud out. To filter it sufficiently is very time consuming (its a very viscous product and the particulates you need to remove are very small...). There is a method of precipitating the particulates using a chemical or other that I can't quite remember the name of - it literally is a case of bung some into a drum of the stuff and syphon off the nice clear stuff from the top. Remember with used stuff you *will* smell like where you get it from!!! CAS > There is a method of precipitating the particulates using a chemical or > other that I can't quite remember the name of - it literally is a case of > bung some into a drum of the stuff and syphon off the nice clear stuff from > the top. And having just spoken to the fella... the stuff you need is sodium methoxide - not a particularly nice chemical and you have to know what you are doing with it in relation to the process of precipitation and the relative quantities... CAS > .... if your local chippy uses vegetable oil he might pay you to take the > used stuff off his hands for you to filter and use as fuel. Except that, IIRC, used cooking oil is now classed as a hazardous waste and has to be disposed of properly (ie paperwork which can be traced) and can't just be given away. It would have made sense to recycle it as fuel, another opportunity missed..... Alan SignatureWarning! - This newsgroup may contain nuts.... Mail sent to this address might get read....Eventually >> .... if your local chippy uses vegetable oil he might pay you to take the >> used stuff off his hands for you to filter and use as fuel. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It would have made sense to recycle it as fuel, another opportunity > missed..... Round Gloucester you can take it to the local tip and they'll recycle it for biodiesel or so they say. Mind you if it's anything like their asbestos disposal place I wouldn't be so sure. SignatureMalc No evil genius is available to take your call at this time. Please record your world domination plans and we will return your call as soon as possible. >> .... if your local chippy uses vegetable oil he might pay you to take the >> used stuff off his hands for you to filter and use as fuel. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Alan I think you could register yourself as a 'used cooking oil re-cycler' too; if you're only doing it for your own use and don't get paid for taking the stuff away, there probably won't be any great problem. Using the stuff as fuel is a perfectly acceptable way of disposing of it. You do have the 'residues' to get rid of properly of course. As soon as the numbers look as though they add up to 'profit' I'm sure someone will start to process used cooking fats and other organic wastes into vehicle fuel on a commercial basis. There are probably 'pilot projects' already under way. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ >> .... if your local chippy uses vegetable oil he might pay you to take the >> used stuff off his hands for you to filter and use as fuel. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Alan http://www.bromley.gov.uk/news/newsarchive2005/oct2005/New+scheme+turns+used+coo king+oil+into+diesel.htm Looks like exactly what they're doing in Southeast London... Regards, Jason. --- Replace nntp with my name to reply. N0 5pAm H3r3: Include this tagline to pass my spam filter. >>Except that, IIRC, used cooking oil is now classed as a hazardous waste >>and has to be disposed of properly (ie paperwork which can be traced) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Looks like exactly what they're doing in Southeast London... Indeed. My comment referred to the likes of you and me befriending our local chippy, blagging some used oil and doing it ourselves..... I read somewhere (but typically can't find it now :o) ) that catering establishments now (or will shortly) have to prove that their waste oil has been sent to an 'approved' disposal site and not just 'tipped down the drain' as mentioned in the article you gave. This would preclude the DIYer as it would be prohibitively expensive to get yourself set up as an approved recycler. The HSE have something to say about DIY biodiesel too :o) Alan SignatureWarning! - This newsgroup may contain nuts.... Mail sent to this address might get read....Eventually Looks like its a 50/50 SVO/Derv blend then (with a suitable receipt in the glove box of course). Just looked under the hood to confirm I do have Bosch fuel pump which is great as if it had been Lucas these are a no-no for use with straight vegetable oil. I was listening to 'Changing World' on Radio 4 the other afternoon and they were talking biodiesel and the guy from Argent Energy was saying that even a 5% mix makes the engine burn the remaining mineral diesel better. Apparently the squeeze to reduce sulphur content means modern diesel is very 'dry' and the veg oil helps lube the engine. Regards, Jason. >>>Except that, IIRC, used cooking oil is now classed as a hazardous waste >>>and has to be disposed of properly (ie paperwork which can be traced) [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Alan --- Replace nntp with my name to reply. N0 5pAm H3r3: Include this tagline to pass my spam filter. > Indeed. Surely it'd make far more sense to go down the cash & carry > to get it by the 20l drum? Or even talk to the chippy, find out who > he uses as a wholesaler? > > I'd imagine they'd be QUITE happy delivering (say) 100+ litres per > month...? Don't you have to add something to the veggie oil - white spirit or something ? Does it mix ok with diesel ? -- Tim Robson mailto:tim602robsontrousers@gmail.com (remove trousers please!) >> Indeed. Surely it'd make far more sense to go down the cash & carry >> to get it by the 20l drum? Or even talk to the chippy, find out who [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > something ? > Does it mix ok with diesel ? At the risk of sounding arsey - read the OP... CAS Hi I have a '92 ZX 1.9D Auto. I have tried running on Veg oil but in anything like slightly chilli weather it struggles at tickover, It's fine on a day like today (20c+) but even early this morning at maybe 7-8c it still stopped a couple of times. I know several other people with ZX's who have no problems. No one has any idea but have no direct experience of Diesel Autos. Does anyone have an answer? > slightly chilli weather It has been pleasantly hot lately, hasn't it? But I haven't noticed many kidney beans about... Or did you mean "Chilly"? > it struggles at tickover, It's fine on a day like today (20c+) but even > early this morning at maybe 7-8c it still stopped a couple of times. I > know several other people with ZX's who have no problems. No one has any > idea but have no direct experience of Diesel Autos. Does anyone have an > answer? Glow plugs? Is it running on all four when it struggles to idle? Oil waxing? Does it do it if you fill with normal diesel? What are you actually filling it with? Just plain ordinary supermarket stripy cooking oil? Or are you going through the whole process of treating it and turning it into biodiesel? The one thing that's certain is that if it's doing it at idle, it's nothing to do with the fact it's an auto. (My mind boggles as to how sluggish an auto 1.9D ZX must be...) I was reading <news:Xns97BFD71208B25adrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170>, made by the entity known as Adrian, that requests spam to be sent to <toomany2cvs@gmail.com> and I became inspired, > What are you actually filling it with? Just plain ordinary > supermarket stripy cooking oil? Or are you going through the whole > process of treating it and turning it into biodiesel? I read somewhere that biodiesel can dissolve rubber. Biodiesel is chemical transferred vegetable (waste) oil. They do that to reduce viscosity afaik. Signatured:J0han; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup Live spelled backwards. > I was reading > <news:Xns97BFD71208B25adrianachapmanfreeis@204.153.244.170>, made by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Biodiesel is chemical transferred vegetable (waste) oil. They do that > to reduce viscosity afaik. That is not entirely true, it depends on the type of bio diesel. It is the additive which is harmful to some types of rubber. Lots of information here http://www.bio-power.co.uk/index.htm If you are running on 100% veggie oil, as bought in a supermarket, then you really need an additional heat exchanger to warm it up a bit, as it is far more viscous than pump diesel. On the other hand, a 50/50 mix works fine. In the UK you also risk having the vehicle confiscated, and then offered back to you at market value, on top of a fine etc. It is cheaper to murder someone in the UK than deny the greedy government some money. Oh, and people have been caught using veggie oil in the UK. "In the UK you also risk having the vehicle confiscated, and then offered back to you at market value, on top of a fine etc. It is cheaper to murder someone in the UK than deny the greedy government some money. Oh, and people have been caught using veggie oil in the UK." This seems to contradict what I have read elsewhere here which suuggests that the only action taken would be that you have to pay the duty on what you have in the tank. > "In the UK you also risk having the vehicle confiscated, and then offered > back to you at market value, on top of a fine etc. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that the only action taken would be that you have to pay the duty on what > you have in the tank. Well, I have seen posts confirming my claim. Certainly HM C&E do have the right to confiscate the vehicle in the case of duty evasion on road fuel. Same applies to veggie oil as red diesel. Anyway, anyone who wants to take a chance is free to do so. Just be prepared for the worst. I also saw a post with a reference to HM C&E website which claimed that pure veggie oil was not classed as bio-diesel, and so attracted the full excise duty. >> "In the UK you also risk having the vehicle confiscated, and then offered >> back to you at market value, on top of a fine etc. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > veggie oil was not classed as bio-diesel, and so attracted the full excise > duty. The UK govt tax-collectors' web site is undergoing reconstruction at present, so the search for 'biodiesel' throws up lots of links that are broken. Probably something to do with the recent decision to join 'Inland Revenue' and 'Customs and Excise' into one entity, 'Revenue and Customs' <http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/>. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ >> slightly chilli weather > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > (My mind boggles as to how sluggish an auto 1.9D ZX must be...) Would pre-existing clogging of the fuel lines, filters if any, and jets, make cool-weather running on PVO less reliable than if there were no such clogging? I haven't made any detailed comparisons, but the oil I use in the kitchen does seem to be noticeably thicker than the mineral diesel that goes into the car. So I'd expect the mineral oil would be less impeded by clogged pipes. Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks, 2 of the jets are new, I have changed the filter twice but apart from off the shelf cleaners havent donemuch about the pipes etc. snip >> Would pre-existing clogging of the fuel lines, filters if any, and jets, >> make cool-weather running on PVO less reliable than if there were no such [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, 2 of the jets are new, I have changed the filter twice but apart > from off the shelf cleaners havent donemuch about the pipes etc. Garages offer a more thorough chemical clean-through than most of the normal 'consumer' additives can manage. Does the "talkaboutautos.com" web interface you are using offer the facility to 'quote' relevent text from the article you are replying to, so as to give context to your reply? That would give those of us using the normal access to newsgroups a much easier time working out what it is you are replying to ;)) (I've patched in the contextual 'quotes' in this reply, so that you can see what I mean - unless the service you are using contrives to hide it somehow). Signature-- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks, I hadn't thought of running it on Kidney beans:-) The glow plugs are quite new, it is just the stuff from the supermarket, no it doesnt do it with proper diesel and surprising it is not at all sluggish, a friend who has a Volcane TD was really quite surprised, It obviously doesnt keep up with his but the performance is probably about the same as a 1.4 petrol. I was reading <news:7fea8dd8fe3e4c856f6c85751f3ef238@localhost.talkaboutautos.com>, made by the entity known as JMThompson, that requests spam to be sent to <jonathanmthompson@tiscali.co.uk> and I became inspired, > Hi I have a '92 ZX 1.9D Auto. I have tried running on Veg oil but in > anything like slightly chilli weather it struggles at tickover, > It's fine on a day like today (20c+) but even early this morning at > maybe 7-8c it still stopped a couple of times. I know several other > people with ZX's who have no problems. No one has any idea but have > no direct experience of Diesel Autos. Does anyone have an answer? I have a 97 Xantia TD. I have it running now for about 15000km on 50% sunflower oil mixed with diesel. It ran without problems when it was -7C this winter. The only problem I have is the morning after filling the veggy oil. The car doesn't run smooth since it isn't mixed yet, the engine has never stalled though. Tried to solve it with a hand pump and recirculate, it's a bit better now. Had a close look at the fuel filter recently and it was completely clean. I think veggy oil is cleaner as diesel. You wouldn't cook a steak in diesel. I have heart of people that run a VW Golf on pure veggy oil. But that's hear-say. I had a small warning. If caught customs (I'm in The Netherlands) will charge taxes from the day you registered the car and add a small fee above that. But Diesel is e1.10 and sunflowerpower is e0.70 and I don't know of anyone that had their fuel tanks sniffed. <knocks wood> But, If you try it and loose the engine in the process, don't come and blame me. Signatured:J0han; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup [18 lines] [Press ENTER to retrieve this message.] [Press M to mark this message for later retrieval.] <snip> > I have it running now for about 15000km on 50% sunflower oil mixed > with diesel. I'd have thought rape seed oil would be sufficient! coming from the affluent south where we're all posh, I get my butler to fill the car with 50% organic extra virgin olive oil with a hint of korean toasted sesame oil ... I haven't notice any change in performance, and my driver informs me that the jalopy starts fine first time (in the heated garage of course which may help ...) Obviously we dont care about saving any money but the aroma from the tailpipe is quite intoxicating ... all the best Dr Dolittle I was reading <news:_zC8g.17216$mX1.10466@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, made by the entity known as drd, that requests spam to be sent to <drd@CITYZOO.COM> and I became inspired, > <snip> > >> I have it running now for about 15000km on 50% sunflower oil mixed >> with diesel. > > I'd have thought rape seed oil would be sufficient! I guess it is. But they sell it here in glass bottles as if it is something special, price is higher. The sunflowerpower is sold in plastic 1 liter bottles packed in boxes containing 15 bottles. I haven't seen cheaper vegetable oil, yet. > coming from the affluent south where we're all posh, I get my > butler to fill the car with 50% organic extra virgin olive oil with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Obviously we dont care about saving any money but the aroma from > the tailpipe is quite intoxicating ... Hahaha. I always get an urge for chips when I smell it. > Dr Dolittle The sheep lied. Signatured:J0han; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup Live spelled backwards. > > I'd have thought rape seed oil would be sufficient! > > I guess it is. But they sell it here in glass bottles as if it is > something special, price is higher. The sunflowerpower is sold in > plastic 1 liter bottles packed in boxes containing 15 bottles. I > haven't seen cheaper vegetable oil, yet. I have noticed that the UK is the only place where rape seed oil is cheaper and readily available. I also note that our local Tesco has raised the price from 43p to 53p /litre in the last couple of weeks. But of course diesel is now 99p per litre, about 1.40?. >>> I'd have thought rape seed oil would be sufficient! >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > /litre in the last couple of weeks. > But of course diesel is now 99p per litre, about 1.40?. it's 99.9p a litre here now - I thought the pump was broken the other day when the "litres" dial and the "£" dial were going round at the same rate !!! they should do something about it I'm sure ... atb S Is sunflower oil better than vegetable oil then? I was reading <news:4a071588701e343e2d6f88815666321a@localhost.talkaboutautos.com>, made by the entity known as JMThompson, that requests spam to be sent to <jonathanmthompson@tiscali.co.uk> and I became inspired, > Is sunflower oil better than vegetable oil then? That's not the reason why I use it. It's readily available in The Netherlands. Rape seed oil should be cheeper but it's harder to get that. AFAIK rape seed oil has a slightly lower viscosity compared with sunflower oil. Therefore rape seed oil should be better for a diesel engine. Signatured:J0han; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup This posting is optimised for reading with Microsoft Outlook Express I was reading <news:29db7aed22b0d986bedc7123fd6b62c9@nntp.aacity.net>, made by the entity known as 2Rowdy, that requests spam to be sent to <Harry131313@gmail.com> and I became inspired, > I have it running now for about 15000km on 50% sunflower oil mixed > with diesel. > It ran without problems when it was -7C this winter. A little note of warning though. If the veggy oil comes onto the body of the car be sure to remove that straigt away. If you don't it's hell go get it off later. Signatured:J0han; Certifiable me http://www.aacity.net Citroen Newsgroup No, I am not demented, just gray haired I've been runnning my Astra TDS on an 80% mix of veg oil fo a year now and now problems. If I run on 100% the car is lumpy at idle. I have been told that 80% veg oil above 6 degress and upto 30% below. >I was reading > <news:7fea8dd8fe3e4c856f6c85751f3ef238@localhost.talkaboutautos.com>, [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > If you try it and loose the engine in the process, don't come and > blame me. Whoops!, I meant no problems > I've been runnning my Astra TDS on an 80% mix of veg oil fo a year now and > now problems. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> If you try it and loose the engine in the process, don't come and >> blame me. Just as a point of interest it passed the MoT with just veggie oil in the tank Should have mentioned that this was yesterday Should have mentioned that this was yesterday |
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