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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / January 2004Cummins Chip?
Hello, I'm getting my Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel tomorrow and I've already started to think about chipping it. I've started looking around for chips and I was told by my car dealership that if I put in a Cummins Power Chip it well not void my warranty. I was wondering if someone could tell me a place I could get this chip on the net, website about the chip and specs before and after the chip. Thanks in advance. - TheNew BrgNewman Is there a particular reason that you want to do this or do you just want to abuse your vehicle right from the start?  SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - TheNew BrgNewman > Is there a particular reason that you want to do this or do you just want to > abuse your vehicle right from the start? He probably wants more performance from it. Nothing wrong with that imo. Actually for a few years the Cummins was detuned a bit for the dodge lt application. Not sure if that is still the case. If he really wants to go out and play he should ask over at www.turbodieselregister.com A bunch of info and answers there. Roy > > Is there a particular reason that you want to do this or do you just want > to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Actually for a few years the Cummins was detuned a bit for the dodge lt > application. Not sure if that is still the case. I would agree with that if HE ACTUALLY HAD THE VEHICLE! Since he hasn't even driven it yet, he doesn't have any idea what the factory performance is. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > > Is there a particular reason that you want to do this or do you just > want [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > even driven it yet, he doesn't have any idea what the factory performance > is. Perhaps he has driven a truck that is similar or maybe a friend owns one. Cummins don't vary a whole hell of a lot. Don't you have an idea of what factory performance is before you buy a vehicle? Roy Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially if it is brand new and I am curious as to his. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > "Roy" <Roy@home.net> wrote in message > news:VhoIb.17193$xX.46161@attbi_s02... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Roy > Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially if it > is brand new and I am curious as to his. I believe you said "since he hasn't even driven it yet he dosen't have any idea what the factory performance is" Odd that you assume he doesn't and you of course would have that knowledge before buying a vehicle. Guess I'm missing something here. > > Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially if > it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Guess I'm missing something here. Yes Roy, I think that you are. You asked if I had an idea of what the performance would be and I said yes. I didn't say that I knew exactly what performance it would have or every upcoming need. And I also said that if I intended to make changes to a new vehicle, I had a specific reason for doing it and was curious as to what his were. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >And I also said that if I >intended to make changes to a new vehicle, I had a specific reason for doing >it and was curious as to what his were. Bullshit, you accused him of abusing the vehicle already. Spin all ya like. Max Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. Perhaps you should go read the original post, pinhead. I did ask if he had a reason for this mod or did he just intend to abuse a new vehicle. IOW for the mentally challenged like yourself and Jerry, If you don't have a good reason or need to do so, you are just abusing it and with the cost of a Cummins truck, that is a pretty stupid thing to do. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > >And I also said that if I > >intended to make changes to a new vehicle, I had a specific reason for doing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon > characters. >Perhaps you should go read the original post, pinhead. I did ask if he had >a reason for this mod or did he just intend to abuse a new vehicle. So you admit you accused him of abuse, but deny you were accusing him of abusing the vehicle? thats funny..... >IOW for >the mentally challenged like yourself and Jerry, If you don't have a good >reason or need to do so, you are just abusing it and with the cost of a >Cummins truck, that is a pretty stupid thing to do. Nowhere does it say you have to hgave a reason to add a power chip, nor does it say that no reason means its abuse. Furthermore, you are pulling a judgement call on somehting you have all but admitted to knowing nothing about. You admitted to not making any mods involving a chip, and you admitted to not having a reason. Beyond that, you've got nothing but accusation, rhetoric and spin. Max Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. > >Perhaps you should go read the original post, pinhead. I did ask if he had > >a reason for this mod or did he just intend to abuse a new vehicle. > > So you admit you accused him of abuse, but deny you were accusing him of > abusing the vehicle? thats funny..... It is comical to watch you spin this way, it has been a while. I asked him if he had an actual need for this performance increase OR did he just want to hop it up to be cool (and probably abuse the vehicle). Were those two degrees of yours mail order? > >IOW for > >the mentally challenged like yourself and Jerry, If you don't have a good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Nowhere does it say you have to hgave a reason to add a power chip, nor does it > say that no reason means its abuse. There is always a reason and I was just curious to see what it was. > Furthermore, you are pulling a judgement > call on somehting you have all but admitted to knowing nothing about. You > admitted to not making any mods involving a chip, and you admitted to not > having a reason. Beyond that, you've got nothing but accusation, rhetoric and > spin. Sorry Maxi, but the only one spinning here is you. If I think of these additions as possible abuse, so will DC and if the trans or other drive train component fails after these mods (as explained by Tom and Jerry), he could be SOL or his warranty. Sometimes the non-tactful way of saying it open peoples eyes better than the drawn out explanation. Look how fast it got you and Jerry spinning. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >It is comical to watch you spin this way Sadly, the only spin you see is the blur outside your window.... >I asked him >if he had an actual need for this performance increase OR did he just want >to hop it up to be cool No, you said nothing about being cool. >(and probably abuse the vehicle) There was no probably about it. Here is what you said: "Is there a particular reason that you want to do this or do you just want to abuse your vehicle right from the start?" Nothing about cool, all about abuse, with no "probably" involved. >Were those two >degrees of yours mail order? I don't need a degree to see that you are lying your a.s off here. >> Nowhere does it say you have to hgave a reason to add a power chip, nor >does it >> say that no reason means its abuse. > >There is always a reason and I was just curious to see what it was. So "I just felt like it" is a reason? You weren't curious, Jerry has you pegged again, you just wanted to stir sh.t and play troll. >Sorry Maxi, but the only one spinning here is you. Better go read again. >I think of these >additions as possible abuse, so will DC Um, no, you are not the standard by which DC determines abuse. >and if the trans or other drive >train component fails after these mods (as explained by Tom and Jerry), he >could be SOL or his warranty. Yup, he could. And he might not just as easily. >Sometimes the non-tactful way of saying it >open peoples eyes better than the drawn out explanation. Nontactful and making assumptions are two different things. You did both. >Look how fast it >got you and Jerry spinning. The psychological phenominon is known as projection, wherein the person actually experiencing the mental state perceives that all those around him are behaving strangely, rather than himself. Max Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. >The psychological phenominon is known as projection, wherein the person >actually experiencing the mental state perceives that all those around him >are >behaving strangely, rather than himself. I watched the Jack Nicholson movie, "Something about Schmidt" the other night. When he took the Percodon is about how I perceive T bone at the moment <BFG> The groom's Mother coming out to the hot tub and dropping her robe would have brought anybody out of "projection"!!!!!!!! Now that was "abuse"!!!!!!!!!!!! <g> I'll start watching reality TV shows, when I can vote people off the planet. > >It is comical to watch you spin this way > > Sadly, the only spin you see is the blur outside your window.... Caused by you. > >I asked him > >if he had an actual need for this performance increase OR did he just want > >to hop it up to be cool > > No, you said nothing about being cool. If he has no other reason, that would be it by default. > >(and probably abuse the vehicle) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Is there a particular reason that you want to do this or do you just want to > abuse your vehicle right from the start?" Yep, that is exactly what I said. Now what buisness is it of yours? The fact that you are trying to tell me what I said now has you making the very assumptions that you are whining about me making. > Nothing about cool, all about abuse, with no "probably" involved. > > >Were those two > >degrees of yours mail order? > > I don't need a degree to see that you are lying your a.s off here. POT, KETTLE, BLACK > >> Nowhere does it say you have to hgave a reason to add a power chip, nor > >does it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So "I just felt like it" is a reason? Yep. IOW, to be cool. > You weren't curious, Jerry has you pegged again, you just wanted to stir sh.t > and play troll. No, Jerry is just a bitter old man that acts like a 5 year old. > >Sorry Maxi, but the only one spinning here is you. > > Better go read again. I did and you still are. > >I think of these > >additions as possible abuse, so will DC > > Um, no, you are not the standard by which DC determines abuse. Never claimed to be. > >and if the trans or other drive > >train component fails after these mods (as explained by Tom and Jerry), he > >could be SOL or his warranty. > > Yup, he could. And he might not just as easily. But he definitely wouldn't if he doesn't make unnecessary mods. I really don't care either way, I am just curious as to why he wants to hop up a big heavy truck or does he hava an actual need. > >Sometimes the non-tactful way of saying it > >open peoples eyes better than the drawn out explanation. > > Nontactful and making assumptions are two different things. You did both. Nothing short of what you and your buddy Dudd do every chance you get. > >Look how fast it > >got you and Jerry spinning. > > The psychological phenominon is known as projection, wherein the person > actually experiencing the mental state perceives that all those around him are > behaving strangely, rather than himself. You would know this phenominon better than anybody with all of the experience that you have in it. > Max > > Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon > characters. > > > Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially if > > it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > intended to make changes to a new vehicle, I had a specific reason for doing > it and was curious as to what his were. No Tom, It would seem that I didn't miss much of anything. It was just you doing your usual. > > > > Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially > if [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > No Tom, It would seem that I didn't miss much of anything. It was just you > doing your usual. Ditto SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > > > > Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, > especially [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Ditto Gee Tom, that was a good one. You are becoming exactly what you rail about. Here's a suggestion for ya, step back and read through the threads you have been involved in the past week. See a pattern there? > -- > If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially if it > is brand new and I am curious as to his. Hmmmmmmmmm........ when someone else does it, it abusing the vehicle but when you do it it is just making changes......... Learn how to read Jerry. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially if it > > is brand new and I am curious as to his. > > Hmmmmmmmmm........ when someone else does it, it abusing the vehicle but > when you do it it is just making changes......... >Learn how to read Jerry. Jerry got it just fine. I don't like Jerry's opinions all the time, but he nailed this squarely. Max Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. > Learn how to read Jerry. Oh, I can read tommy and you accused the guy of abusing the vehicle because he wanted to upgrade. Seems the word abuse disappeared when you do the same thing and it then just becomes "specific changes". Strange I've never seen abuse chips advertised ............. then again I've also never seen specific chips. But, you are consistent tommy ....... someone asks a simply honest question and tommy troll is on the spot....what a hoot. Jerry > > Learn how to read Jerry. > > Oh, I can read tommy and you accused the guy of abusing the vehicle > because he wanted to upgrade. That is not true. Like I said, learn how to read. > Seems the word abuse disappeared when you > do the same thing and it then just becomes "specific changes". Once again, your low IQ fails to grasp even the simplest of sentences. Perhaps your new buddy Dudd could help you put here. I never said that I did make performance upgrades to a new vehicle. I said that if I intend to make a change to a new vehicle, I have a specific reason for doing it. > Strange I've never seen abuse chips advertised ............. then again Then you don't see very much, do you. > I've also never seen specific chips. Then you are just an idiot since every chip is specific, moron. LOL!!! - If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >>Oh, I can read tommy and you accused the guy of abusing the vehicle >>because he wanted to upgrade. > > That is not true. Like I said, learn how to read. Yes it is true. Like it or not you said it. > Once again, your low IQ fails to grasp even the simplest of sentences. > Perhaps your new buddy Dudd could help you put here. I never said that I > did make performance upgrades to a new vehicle. I said that if I intend to > make a change to a new vehicle, I have a specific reason for doing it. Well if you have never done a upgrade then you have never had a specific reason to want to do one then have you. Make up your mind sponge gums, have you or haven't you. Fact is you were simply on a troll to start one of your bs flames which is 90% of your posts. >>Strange I've never seen abuse chips advertised ............. then again > > Then you don't see very much, do you. Okay troll boy, show me one........ go ahead, give me a link to one. >>I've also never seen specific chips. > > Then you are just an idiot since every chip is specific, moron. LOL!!! Awwww.... is troll boy getting all bent out of shape now...... is that your best shot troll boy. Looks like little tommy troll is in one of his melt downs again............... Should I use one of those little funny faces for you tommy or maybe a LOL since you like those AOL chat room symbols to help you understand what your reading. Damn if we could only use crayons here you would be in fat city huh. I'm so excited about your next post troll boy, now don't disappoint us......... Jerry > >>Oh, I can read tommy and you accused the guy of abusing the vehicle > >>because he wanted to upgrade. > > > > That is not true. Like I said, learn how to read. > > Yes it is true. Like it or not you said it. No I didn't and if you think that I did, show me where. > > Once again, your low IQ fails to grasp even the simplest of sentences. > > Perhaps your new buddy Dudd could help you put here. I never said that I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sponge gums, have you or haven't you. Fact is you were simply on a > troll to start one of your bs flames which is 90% of your posts. There are many 'changes' that can be done besides performance upgrades or is it beyond your old shriveled up little mind to figure that one out. The only one trolling here now is you. > >>Strange I've never seen abuse chips advertised ............. then again > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > your best shot troll boy. Looks like little tommy troll is in one of > his melt downs again............... LOL, here comes the sh.t when poor little Jerry gets caught with his pants down again. > Should I use one of those little > funny faces for you tommy or maybe a LOL since you like those AOL chat > room symbols to help you understand what your reading. If it was intended to be humorous, you would have indicated so. Face it pinhead, you got it wrong, probably like so many other things in your pitiful life. > Damn if we could > only use crayons here you would be in fat city huh. Yea, then your room mates in the home would be able to loan you more writing instruments. > I'm so excited > about your next post troll boy, now don't disappoint us......... This I can believe with an existence as pitiful as yours. Now I can see why you were giving Dudd such a hard time before. He is a perfect example of where you will be in a few years or is that months. God help you. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >There are many 'changes' that can be done besides performance upgrades or is >it beyond your old shriveled up little mind to figure that one out. You mean like your diaper needing changing? Hope you got that 2 by 4 strapped to your a.s, cause you're sinking fast I'll start watching reality TV shows, when I can vote people off the planet. >> >>Oh, I can read tommy and you accused the guy of abusing the vehicle >> >>because he wanted to upgrade. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >you were giving Dudd such a hard time before. He is a perfect example of >where you will be in a few years or is that months. God help you. Durn, son. Four people kicking you around this thread like a soccer ball and you still come back for more. Sic em boy get em! Throw some more spin in the fray! AW >That is not true. Like I said, learn how to read. We know how to read..... >Once again, your low IQ fails to grasp even the simplest of sentences. And your IQ fails to recognize that you are spinning desperately to figure a way around that line you typed in that makes you look stupid. >I never said that I >did make performance upgrades to a new vehicle. I said that if I intend to >make a change to a new vehicle, I have a specific reason for doing it. IOW, you are bullshitting. Max Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. > >That is not true. Like I said, learn how to read. > > We know how to read..... Then perhaps you need some work on comprehension. > >Once again, your low IQ fails to grasp even the simplest of sentences. > > And your IQ fails to recognize that you are spinning desperately to figure a > way around that line you typed in that makes you look stupid. And what line would that be? > >I never said that I > >did make performance upgrades to a new vehicle. I said that if I intend to > >make a change to a new vehicle, I have a specific reason for doing it. > > IOW, you are bullshitting. Oh really, then repost the line and read it again. Maybe then you might be able to understand it. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially if it >is brand new and I am curious as to his. Then perhaps you should have asked what his reasons were, instead of accusing/assuming he was abusing the truck. Max Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. > >Sure I do. I also have a reason for making changes to it, especially if it > >is brand new and I am curious as to his. > > Then perhaps you should have asked what his reasons were, instead of > accusing/assuming he was abusing the truck. I did ask pinhead, learn how to read. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> Then perhaps you should have asked what his reasons were, instead of >> accusing/assuming he was abusing the truck. > >I did ask pinhead, learn how to read. Really? Ok, here is what you said: "Is there a particular reason that you want to do this or do you just want to abuse your vehicle right from the start?" The second portion of your request basically criticizes any change, so you aren't asking, you are judging. Maybe if you had a better grasp of how the language worked, or just of any sort of tact..... Max Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. > >> Then perhaps you should have asked what his reasons were, instead of > >> accusing/assuming he was abusing the truck. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The second portion of your request basically criticizes any change, so you > aren't asking, you are judging. Once again, you are wrong. But I'll ask you then, if you don't have a partcular need to further increase the impressive torque and performance of the diesel, what exactly is the performance increase needed or going to be used for?????? > Maybe if you had a better grasp of how the language worked, or just of any sort > of tact..... LOL, like tact has ever been a strong point in this group. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >Once again, you are wrong. Keep repeating it and whether or not its true, you'll believe it. >But I'll ask you then, if you don't have a >partcular need to further increase the impressive torque and performance of >the diesel, what exactly is the performance increase needed or going to be >used for?????? Anything he wants, including just being able to say he has a chip modification. That is what is great about this democratic republic with capitalism as its economic system: People can do what ever they want and what ever they can afford, and they don't need a reason beyond a simple want to do it. I realize this concept is beyond your socialist/liberal/entitlement mindset, but thats the way it is in this country. >LOL, like tact has ever been a strong point in this group. Doesn't matter if you think it is or not. The properly raised, educated (no matter what level) well mannered person attempts to act in a civil manner, something you have failed to do since you got here. Or do you admit to lowering your standards to what you percieve as the level in here? Max Anvils don't kill cartoon characters, cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. > >Once again, you are wrong. > > Keep repeating it and whether or not its true, you'll believe it. Again, the word of experience. > >But I'll ask you then, if you don't have a > >partcular need to further increase the impressive torque and performance of > >the diesel, what exactly is the performance increase needed or going to be > >used for?????? > > Anything he wants, including just being able to say he has a chip modification. IOW, to brag and be cool. > That is what is great about this democratic republic with capitalism as its > economic system: People can do what ever they want and what ever they can > afford, and they don't need a reason beyond a simple want to do it. I never said anything different. Many times people make these mods to a vehicle just because they read about them and don't even think about the potential abuse these changes can cause to related components. > I realize this concept is beyond your socialist/liberal/entitlement mindset, but thats > the way it is in this country. Duh, really? > >LOL, like tact has ever been a strong point in this group. > > Doesn't matter if you think it is or not. The properly raised, educated (no > matter what level) well mannered person attempts to act in a civil manner, > something you have failed to do since you got here. Perhaps you should read your own posts and talk to your little puppy. > Or do you admit to lowering > your standards to what you percieve as the level in here? Sure I have to deal with you and others like you. But like what is regularly said (although seldom believed), this is not reality, so get over it. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > I was told by my car dealership that if I put in a Cummins Power Chip > it well not void my warranty. As usual, your dealership is clueless. At one point, there WAS a Cummins-approved uprate kit for the early (non-HO) 24V engines. It was expensive, and didn't add all that much power. There is no such kit available for the new ISBe engines (I'm assuming you're buying a new vehicle). Installing a "chip" (fueling box is the more appropriate term) does not "void" your warranty. However, DC is well within their rights to deny warranty coverage for any problem that might have been caused by the addition of that box. That means pretty much anything powertrain-related. If you blow up your transmission, don't expect to get it repaired under warranty. But, if your A/C evaporator springs a leak, DC can't point to your fueling box and say, "sorry - warranty void". > Installing a "chip" (fueling box is the more appropriate term) does not > "void" your warranty. However, DC is well within their rights to deny [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > warranty. But, if your A/C evaporator springs a leak, DC can't point to > your fueling box and say, "sorry - warranty void". Just a little additional info to the above......... Date: October, 2000 Involved Vehicles: All Discussion: This bulletin is intended to clarify DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation's warranty coverage policy on vehicles equipped with after-market engine performance enhancing modification packages or components. Although this applies to all vehicles, Dodge Ram Pickup trucks equipped with the Cummins diesel engine are particularly susceptible to performance enhancing kits. Section 3.7 of the Dodge Ram Pickup warranty Information booklet states "Your warranties don't cover the costs of repairing damage or conditions caused by . . . any changes made to your truck that don't comply with DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation or DaimlerChrysler Corporation specifications." This section also states that warranties do not cover "tampering with the emission systems, or with a part that could affect the emission systems". Unless certified, engine performance modification components violate both statements under the warranty terms. Therefore, prior to beginning repairs to any vehicle equipped, or suspected of being equipped with a performance enhancing modification, it is important to determine whether the needed repairs are a direct result of the kit. If so, they are the customer's responsibility. Keep in mind that the performance modifications may cause damage to non-engine components, such as transmissions, axles, electrical components, etc. Claims submitted for repairs not covered by the warranty are subject to chargeback. Also remember that dealership installation of such modification components or packages at any time, as well as the sale of vehicles modified with such components before delivery, may violate state and/or Federal emission regulations that carry substantial fines. K.A Murrenus Senior Manager Warranty Administration Not only is DC is covered to deny you warranty repair's there is a TSB http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2002/14-002-02.htm which instructs the shops in how to spot tampering. Personally I don't blame DC at all for this kind of action. As they say on the TDR, when you start to bomb the Cummins you become your own warranty. Jerry > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - TheNew BrgNewman To get back to the subject. What year, what are you using it for, what transmission? If it is a 2K, a quick change of injectors will liven it up. Roy >I'm getting my Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel tomorrow What year? If it is a new truck, '04, you won't need a chip if you are towing any load within the trucks GCVW rating, it has buckets of power. You may decide you don't need a chip after you have it a while. My stock 1999/3500/5spd/3.54 climbs the 14 FWY to Escondido Summit hauling a 10,000 lb trailer with the cruise control on - I do have to down shift to 4th, but it does it as fast as I'm willing to pull that heavy a trailer. It comes up the Grapevine hauling a loaded 3 horse slant load gooseneck (7,500 lbs) in 4th with the cruise on. If its a stick, you would be better served to spend the bucks on an exhaust brake IMO. The brakes are the weak point on the pre-2001 trucks, not the power of the Cummins. >and I've already started >to think about chipping it. I've started looking around for chips and >I was told by my car dealership that if I put in a Cummins Power Chip >it well not void my warranty. Get that in writing. The Cummins chip doesn't void the warranty on 1999 era Cummins engines (it doesn't add much power either), but I think it does void the warranty on the rest of the drive train like the transmission and clutch. If the truck is a 24V, put a boost pump ahead of the lift pump, and add a fuel pressure gage, boost gage, and exhaust temp gage "before" you plug in a chip. Fitch > The Cummins chip doesn't void the warranty on > 1999 era Cummins engines (it doesn't add much power either), Add on's like the VA will give you about a 20% HP and 40% torque increase. I wouldn't exactly call that not much additional power. The question is does a person really need it. You're right in that the newer models have all the power a person should need. I think the 2004 puts out as much stock as my 1999 would with a VA module added to it. Jerry |
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