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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / January 2005

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3.9 L V-6 in Dodge Dakota Smoking on Start-up

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Wulfdog - 19 Jan 2005 20:59 GMT
I have a 1995 Dodge Dakota with the 3.9 V6.  I have changed the oil
religeously in it every 3K since it was new and now has 139K on it.
Recently it has started to smoke when I start it, and is using oil.  Is
there anything cheap or like and additive I can put in it to solve this
problem?  I know it needs rebuild, but I cant afford that.

John
maxpower - 19 Jan 2005 21:21 GMT
if you are looking for a magic potion from a can forget it, save your money,
sounds like possibly bad valve stem oil seals or the intake manifold plenum
gasket is bad..
NO: 09-05-00
SUBJECT: Spark Knock And Engine Oil Consumption Due To Intake Manifold Pan
Gasket Oil Leak
DATE: Feb. 25, 2000
This bulletin involves the replacement of the engine intake manifold plenum
pan gasket.

NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLE EQUIPPED WITH A 3.9L, 5.2L. OR 5.9L
GASOLINE ENGINE.

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
An engine intake manifold plenum pan gasket oil leak may occur on some V-6
and V-8 style engines. The oil leak is internal to the engine so no external
oil leakage will be present. Two symptoms of this oil leak condition may be
present. The vehicle operator may experience an engine spark knock during
acceleration and/or an increase in the amount of engine oil consumed by the
engine.

DIAGNOSIS:
Inspect the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve. Shake the PCV valve
to verify that the pintle inside of the PCV valve is free. Replace the PVC
if the pintle is not free.

If the intake manifold plenum pan gasket is leaking, an additional vacuum
source will be created inside of the engine at the location of the pan
gasket leakage. Engine combustion blow-by gases, oil vapor, and air from the
crankcase filter/breather may be drawn past the leaking pan gasket and into
the intake manifold. In most cases when this condition occurs, an engine at
idle will create the highest vacuum and lowest amount of engine blow-by.

 1.. Allow the engine to reach normal operating temperature.
 2.. Stop the engine.
 3.. Disconnect the breather hose from the air cleaner.
 4.. Attach a vacuum / pressure gauge to the end of the breather hose
(Figure 1).
 5.. Disconnect the PCV valve hose from the intake manifold.
 6.. Seal off the intake manifold PCV valve hose port opening.
 7.. Seal off the open end of the PCV valve hose (Figure 2).
 NOTE: DURING THIS DIAGNOSIS, IT WOULD BE NORMAL FOR THE ENGINE TO DEVELOP
PRESSURE WITHIN THE ENGINE CRANKCASE. THIS IS DUE TO THE NORMAL PROCESS OF
EXHAUST BLOW-BY GASES LEAKING PAST THE ENGINE PISTON RINGS AND ACCUMULATING
IN THE ENGINE CRANKCASE. DO NOT ALLOW MORE THAN 3 PSI (20.7 kPa) OF PRESSURE
TO BUILD WITHIN THE ENGINE WHEN PERFORMING THE FOLLOWING DIAGNOSTIC
PROCEDURE.

 8.. Start the warmed engine and observe the vacuum gauge.
 9.. Allow the engine to idle for approximately 30 seconds. Do not allow
more than 3 psi (20.7 kPa) of pressure to develop in the engine crankcase.
 10.. If the attached vacuum / pressure gauge does not indicate that a
vacuum is present in the engine crankcase, then the intake manifold plenum
pan gasket is good and no further internal engine vacuum leak diagnosis is
required.
 11.. If an internal vacuum leak is present then perform the Repair
Procedure.
 12..  Remove intake and install plenum gasket
> I have a 1995 Dodge Dakota with the 3.9 V6.  I have changed the oil
> religeously in it every 3K since it was new and now has 139K on it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> John
Henry - 20 Jan 2005 13:06 GMT
Sir,
An engine with 139k miles will use some oil due to ring wear etc.   As I am
shure you are aware, blue smoke is oil and white is water.
I had a 318 cid ram that started showing those symptoms,
that is  small amounts of blue smoke when starting. It was leaking oil past
the valve stem seals.
The fix was to have the heads rebuilt, any decent auto machine shop will do
it.

Maxpower is also correct when suggesting not to use aditives. They indeed
are a waste of money and can actually leave deposits thruout the lower
engine and block passages.

Henry

>I have a 1995 Dodge Dakota with the 3.9 V6.  I have changed the oil
> religeously in it every 3K since it was new and now has 139K on it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> John
Wulfdog - 21 Jan 2005 15:27 GMT
Thanks guys.  I was nearly sure in my own mind additives wouldn't work, and
I was nearly certain there was something with the valve seals.  I think it
has a tapping sound on the right side of the engine, so there may even be a
lose valve over there.  I appreciate you confirming my suspicions.  Thanks
John.

> Sir,
> An engine with 139k miles will use some oil due to ring wear etc.   As I am
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> >
> > John
James Goforth - 21 Jan 2005 16:45 GMT
 The fact that it smokes immediately upon start-up is your clue that
it's the valve guides/seals--replacing them is much cheaper than engine
rebuild.
Rick Blaine - 22 Jan 2005 05:06 GMT
>   The fact that it smokes immediately upon start-up is your clue that
> it's the valve guides/seals--replacing them is much cheaper than engine
> rebuild.
No need to rebuild the heads though.  If you have and air compressor (and
even if you don't) you can replace the valve seals without removing the
heads.  There are some good additives, no miracles in a can or anything but
I've had good results with restore.
James Goforth - 22 Jan 2005 18:46 GMT
 Yeah, I've thought that Restore would probably work well, except only
under just certain conditions, i.e. scored cylinder walls.
 Wouldn't do anything for an oil control problem originating in the
heads, which I think the vast majority of oil-control problems are.
 Glad to finally hear from someone who has actually used that stuff
(and that you had positive results).
Rick Blaine - 26 Jan 2005 02:49 GMT
>   Yeah, I've thought that Restore would probably work well, except only
> under just certain conditions, i.e. scored cylinder walls.
>   Wouldn't do anything for an oil control problem originating in the
> heads, which I think the vast majority of oil-control problems are.
>   Glad to finally hear from someone who has actually used that stuff
> (and that you had positive results).

Yea, it's the only one that's made any noticeable difference on oil
consumption.  And the engine did run better.  It was a high mileage 300k kms
318.
Wulfdog - 26 Jan 2005 19:13 GMT
Rick,

How do you replace the valves without out removing the heads?  Also what
does the air compressor have to do with changing the valves?

John

> >   Yeah, I've thought that Restore would probably work well, except only
> > under just certain conditions, i.e. scored cylinder walls.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> consumption.  And the engine did run better.  It was a high mileage 300k kms
> 318.
TBone - 26 Jan 2005 20:03 GMT
It is not the valve that you need to replace, it is the valve seal.  The
compressed air is used to hold the valve in place while you remove the valve
spring retainer and spring which is required to get to the valve seal.

Signature

If at first you don't succeed,  you're not cut out for skydiving

> Rick,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> kms
> > 318.
Tom Lawrence - 26 Jan 2005 23:37 GMT
> How do you replace the valves without out removing the heads?  Also what
> does the air compressor have to do with changing the valves?

As TBone said, the compressed air is used to hold the valves closed.
There's a fitting that screws into the head in place of the spark plug that
allows an air line to be connected.  The cylinder has to be placed at
top-dead-center, or the compressed air will drive the piston down, spinning
the engine.

Anotehr method is to remove the spark plug, and thread about a foot or so of
clothesline rope into the cylinder.  You then roll the engine over to bring
the piston up, and it compresses the rope against the valves, holding them
in place mechanically rather than pneumatically.  This is the typical
'backyard' method for changing valve springs and seals - works pretty well,
actually.
Wulfdog - 27 Jan 2005 16:37 GMT
I understand, so the air holds the valves up so you're better able to take
the springs and retainer off.  So then where is the seal as opposed to the
spring is it under the spring against the head?  Also will I have to take
the rocker arms off to get to the springs?  I guess you can tell I have very
limited experiance working with valves or the internal workings of engines.
I know a lot about them from what I've read, but I have very limited
experience in overhauling an engine.  I have though rebuilt the automatic
transmission on a D-7 Cat dozer, but I had help, instructions and big parts
to work with.

> > How do you replace the valves without out removing the heads?  Also what
> > does the air compressor have to do with changing the valves?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> 'backyard' method for changing valve springs and seals - works pretty well,
> actually.
Rick Blaine - 27 Jan 2005 18:47 GMT
> I understand, so the air holds the valves up so you're better able to take
> the springs and retainer off.  So then where is the seal as opposed to the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> transmission on a D-7 Cat dozer, but I had help, instructions and big parts
> to work with.

You will have to take the rockers off, not a big deal.  This is not a
difficult job, just somewhat time consuming.  The valve seal is on the valve
stem and seals it to the guide, once you get the valve cover off it will be
obvious.  Though the old seals may have disintegrated and you may find
chunks of them here and there and not on the valve like they should be.  One
caveat, by the time the valve seals fail, usually the guides are worn out as
well.  Putting new seals on my reduce oil burning but may not eliminate it.
Wulfdog - 27 Jan 2005 19:51 GMT
Thanks Rick that makes a lot of sense to me now.  I will especailly be happy
just to see something that looks worn in there so I can replace it.
Replacing the valve guides would involve removing the heads right?

John
Rick Blaine - 27 Jan 2005 20:45 GMT
> > Replacing the valve guides would involve removing the heads right?

Yup.  If you do decide to rip the heads off, might as well install a new
timing chain when you have it all apart.  And maybe a water pump...
Wulfdog - 27 Jan 2005 22:18 GMT
Water pump about two months ago. :-(
John

> > > Replacing the valve guides would involve removing the heads right?
>
> Yup.  If you do decide to rip the heads off, might as well install a new
> timing chain when you have it all apart.  And maybe a water pump...
Wulfdog - 31 Jan 2005 16:03 GMT
I put a can of Restore in it Yesterday, Sunday, and it seems to have helped
it.  (knock on wood)  Seems to run and idle a lot smoother.

Thanks for the help.

John

> Water pump about two months ago. :-(
> John
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > Yup.  If you do decide to rip the heads off, might as well install a new
> > timing chain when you have it all apart.  And maybe a water pump...
 
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