 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / April 2005Hybrids Gas Mileage in the real world...INTERESTING !
Noticed in last eveings local newspaper am article under the headline Defroster, air-conditioning put dent in Hybrids milage (Mark Phelan from Knight Ridder Newspapers) seems they tested a few Hybrids in real world conditions from late summer thru most of this winter... Look at these figures: Toyota Prius... rated at 60 city 51 highway Racked up 22.8 mpg Ford Escape.. Rated at 36 and 32 by the epa Racked up 21.6 mpg The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) Rated at 29 & 37 Racked up 20.4 mpg I mean in the Winter My little Dodge Dakota (3.9 5 sp) does fall to about 19 mpg .... but what the hell My one Corvette has averaged 24 mph over its entire 10 year life time... I have to wonder how much fuel milage a Hybird would loose it it had any full grocery bags stuffed inside...so much weight would really kill the gas mileage Bob Griffihs.. http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan3e_20050203.htm You mean this one?  SignatureSteve Williams > Noticed in last eveings local newspaper am article > under the headline [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Bob Griffihs.. > Look at these figures: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Bob Griffihs.. Technology has gotten a long way, hasn't it! ;-) Cripes my wife's '93 Caprice got 22 MPH last trip, with the air on, driving 75 MPH, with four people in the car. Try that in a hybrid! Plus the trunk is big enough to hold 2-3 bodies, and the rear seat leg room is good. The darned thing has 150k miles on it too. It is large enough so it feels like you are sitting in a car too, not wearing it! Greg >Technology has gotten a long way, hasn't it! ;-) >Cripes my wife's '93 Caprice got 22 MPH last trip, with the air on, driving >75 MPH, with four people in the car. Try that in a hybrid! Plus the trunk is >big enough to hold 2-3 bodies, and the rear seat leg room is good. The >darned thing has 150k miles on it too. It is large enough so it feels like >you are sitting in a car too, not wearing it! Back in the mid-1990s our 1993, 4200-lb "Land-Yacht" Lincoln Town Car (4.6L v8 rear-wheel drive monster) consistently got 19 in town and 26~27 on the highway with the trunk loaded down w/luggage and the A/C on and cruise set on 75. Imagine what I could have got with the A/C off, empty trunk, no passenger, no full-sized spare and plodding along at 55! I think the bottom line is it's a conspiracy by the big oil companies and auto manufacturers to stick it to the American consumer. They've "got us" by the short hairs and they know it. We're addicted to our cars like children are to candy. Car-pooling only works for that tiny percentage of milque toasts who have been successful in controlling this addiction. I'm sorry, but my car/truck is my freedom. The only thing that's going to happen when gasoline is $10/gallon is it will be costing me $260 to fill up, but I will still be out there with the rest of the motoring addicts driving. By the same token the tree huggers also share some of the blame. Just look at how they've phuqued things up in California. Already there's a $1/gallon price differential between Cal. and the rest of the US. > By the same token the tree huggers also share some of the blame. > Just look at how they've phuqued things up in California. Already there's > a $1/gallon price differential between Cal. and the rest of the US. You left our government out too. Why are there no congressional hearings on the fact that oil companies' profits during this time keep setting new records everytime there's an increase in what we pay at the pump? (that's a rhetorical question as I know the oil companies contribute heavily to both political parties) > > By the same token the tree huggers also share some of the blame. > > Just look at how they've phuqued things up in California. Already there's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > question as I know the oil companies contribute heavily to both political > parties) Congress cannot protect us from our own stupidity. If we are willing to pay the price to fuel oversized vehicles no matter how much it costs, then the oil companies can continue to reap in huge profits and well fund their congress. The only ones that can put a stop to it is the American people and we are far to dumb and selfish to do that. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Congress cannot protect us from our own stupidity. If we are willing to > pay > the price to fuel oversized vehicles no matter how much it costs, then the > oil companies can continue to reap in huge profits and well fund their > congress. The only ones that can put a stop to it is the American people > and we are far to dumb and selfish to do that. I just love those "Gas out" days that went around a while back "dont buy gas on Wednesday!" um, ok, I will fill my 55 gallon gas tank on Tuesday then.. accomplishes nothing. getting RID of the gas guzzler as a daily driver, now that makes a difference. I bet my truck does about 2,000-3,000 miles a year... if that. Every time I stop by the gs station, that electric car looks better and better!! throw some solar pannels on the roof of the house, and Im set! >> > By the same token the tree huggers also share some of the blame. >> > Just look at how they've phuqued things up in California. Already [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Congress cannot protect us from our own stupidity. they can't even protect from their own stupidity. that would be a great place for them to start. just saying. > If we are willing to pay >the price to fuel oversized vehicles no matter how much it costs, then the >oil companies can continue to reap in huge profits and well fund their >congress. The only ones that can put a stop to it is the American people >and we are far to dumb and selfish to do that. > >> > By the same token the tree huggers also share some of the blame. > >> > Just look at how they've phuqued things up in California. Already [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > they can't even protect from their own stupidity. that would be a > great place for them to start. LOL, how true. > just saying. And I agree. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > >Noticed in last eveings local newspaper am article [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Bob Griffihs.. I found this quote "In 2000, the first full year a hybrid -- the Honda Insight -- was on the market, hybrid fuel economy averaged 65 miles per gallon. Now, with seven hybrids on the market, average fuel economy has slipped to around 45 mpg, according to Edmunds.com. Over the same period, average horsepower for hybrids has climbed from 73 to 176.4 this year. " here: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/27/A01-126133.htm TANSTAAFL ;-( Greg > I found this quote > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Over the same period, average horsepower for hybrids has climbed from > 73 to 176.4 this year. " Of course. Fuel economy isn't _sexy_! Horsepower _is_! > here: > > http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/27/A01-126133.htm Good article. > TANSTAAFL ;-( Yup. If you want to make horsepower you have to burn fuel. But hybrids have certain other advantages. True hybrids, that is. Several years ago Oshkosh Diesel made a hybrid of their 8x8 heavy truck. They used off the shelf parts that have been used in diesel-electric locomotives for decades. They went from 2 transmissions and 5 gearboxes to engine, generator, controller, and 4 electric motors. Their truck's fuel consumption was cut in half, and reliability was doubled. Now if engineers can just get that kind of stuff small enough to use in a practical passenger vehicle we'll be in business. But I don't expect the oil companies to ever let it happen. AP > > I found this quote > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > a practical passenger vehicle we'll be in business. But I don't expect > the oil companies to ever let it happen. How exactly are the oil companies going to stop it? SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving [snip] > How exactly are the oil companies going to stop it? With money, connections, and political pressure in the right places. (Like the White House.) In other words: Business as usual. AP That's not quite so easy anymore. While it is obvious that they do own the White House, our high speed communications makes it much more difficult to pull that off. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > [snip] > > How exactly are the oil companies going to stop it? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > AP > That's not quite so easy anymore. While it is obvious that they do > own the White House, our high speed communications makes it much > more difficult to pull that off. LOL! "High speed communications" makes it easier and more efficient than ever. And with the willingness of our present administration to cozy up to these guys, no problem at all. The problem is the consumer relies on the US Govenment EPA ratings posted on the car. The problem is the way the test is conducted, does not give a true reflection of the fuel consumed by the car. If the test was conducted by most any normal person, they would put a gallon in the tank and driev over the same course and document the miles gone before the gas runs out! EPA mandates that the test be conduced differently! They measure the tailpipe emissions under certain circumstances. Obviously the electric engine helping will reduce the emissions, but the test does not factor real world driving. The hybrid owners have been flooding the dealers with complaints over the misrepresentation but they are using the only numbers the government allows. Articles I have read state that the hybrid owners are lucky to get 60% of the advertised MPG for any of the models. Save your money and don't buy hybrid, since you can buy cars now that are run on Gasoline with better fuel economy. > Noticed in last eveings local newspaper am article > under the headline [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Bob Griffihs.. <SNIPPED> >Save your money and don't buy hybrid, since you can buy cars now that are >run on Gasoline with better fuel economy. I won't waste my money on any of the hybrids since my RAM get almost as good on mileage as any of the three that Bob G.'s article listed - with A/C running full blast. >> Noticed in last eveings local newspaper am article >> under the headline [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> >> Bob Griffihs.. > The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) > Rated at 29 & 37 > Racked up 20.4 mpg I have no experience with the Accord hybrid, but my mother's Civic hybrid did a real-world 47mpg on the highway on a trip to New Jersey and back from Florida late last year. As far as the defroster sucking up fuel, that's because the engineers at the car companies assume their customers are idiots, and wire up the defrost to run the AC compressor whether it's needed or not. If they would go ahead and switch from an engine driven compressor to an electric one then it would have a MUCH diminished effect on fuel economy. Last time I looked the gas mileage of the US fleet was around 20mpg, which is the _lowest_ it's been in 20 years, and instead of getting better it's getting worse. AP >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) Rated at 29 & 37 >> Racked up 20.4 mpg [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > AP Its called Hemi, HD, 8.1 liter, H2, Escalade, Yukon, RAM, F250, Silverado... Funny how ten years ago 220 HP was a lot. Now its "insufficient". Tell me, just how much do those groceries and soccer balls weigh?? Do you really need 350+ HP on tap while parked in traffic? A Honda Civic sits motionless in traffic just as well as the tallest 4x4 you can find! Just goes to show how insecure so many people are, and how willing they are to spend the extra money for a little compensation. As for some folks that DO need a big truck (contractors, landscapers, 5th wheel pullers) if people bought what they needed and were not afraid of who might see them in a little car, then the national average MPG would go up and the fuel prices just might maintain a reasonable price. >Its called Hemi, HD, 8.1 liter, H2, Escalade, Yukon, RAM, F250, >Silverado... Funny how ten years ago 220 HP was a lot. Now its [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >little car, then the national average MPG would go up and the fuel prices >just might maintain a reasonable price. ============ Personally I would not feel insecure in a small car I just want a hell of a lot more horses under my right foot they offer... The worlds major user of OIL happens to be China... and last I heard they are not a nation know for driving cars at all.. . IF Americans would drive cars that were higher in fuel efficiency I honestly do not know if it would really make a difference in the price of oil....on the world market.... It would help a little...but just how much? Bob Griffiths > >Its called Hemi, HD, 8.1 liter, H2, Escalade, Yukon, RAM, F250, > >Silverado... Funny how ten years ago 220 HP was a lot. Now its [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Personally I would not feel insecure in a small car I just want a hell > of a lot more horses under my right foot they offer... Why??? Smaller cars don't need lots of HP to kick the sh.t out of larger ones. Are you trying to compensate for something :-) > The worlds major user of OIL happens to be China... and last I > heard they are not a nation know for driving cars at all.. Really??? Where did you hear this? From what I have read, China is the fastest growing user of oil but we are still the largest and a fairly high percentage of it is used to produce fuel. > . > IF Americans would drive cars that were higher in fuel efficiency I > honestly do not know if it would really make a difference in the price > of oil....on the world market.... It would help a little...but just > how much? It would help in 3 ways. 1. It would reduce our dependency on foreign oil as well as lower the price. 2. It would reduce air pollution that we and our children have to breath in every day. 3. Even if the price of oil didn't drop by so much as 1 cent, we would still have more money in our pockets because we wouldn't need to buy any where near as much of it to live our lives and if it did, that's even more money. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> >Its called Hemi, HD, 8.1 liter, H2, Escalade, Yukon, RAM, F250, >> >Silverado... Funny how ten years ago 220 HP was a lot. Now its [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >fastest growing user of oil but we are still the largest and a fairly high >percentage of it is used to produce fuel. from what i have read, you are right. however, the increasing demand for diesel fuel in the asian countries has put a strain on our supply and has had an impact on the rise of those prices. >> . >> IF Americans would drive cars that were higher in fuel efficiency I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >where near as much of it to live our lives and if it did, that's even more >money. Ah yes, but the beauty of diesel is ... you don't *have* to get it from crude oil. Check out: http://www.dfwbiodiesel.com Additionally, diesel trucks/cars are A LOT more fuel efficient. The Hybrid and upcoming hydrogen cars coupled with diesel WILL reduce our dependence in foriegn oil. It's just going to take a few years. I would guess the Middle East will start seeing drastic changes in US dependence within 5 years. But then we, the US, will have to deal with the impact politically. Craig C. > Ah yes, but the beauty of diesel is ... you don't *have* to get it from > crude oil. Check out: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > But then we, the US, will have to deal with the impact politically. But before that happens, we the people of the US would have to be more willing to accept new technologies and do our part to help it along but as history shows, that doesn't happen here unless we are forced to do so and when the situation improves, we go directly back to our old ways. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > But then we, the US, will have to deal with the impact politically. > > But before that happens, we the people of the US would have to be more > willing to accept new technologies and do our part to help it along but as > history shows, that doesn't happen here unless we are forced to do so and > when the situation improves, we go directly back to our old ways. People in general, not just Americans, are creatures of habit. In the broad sense, people hate change, especially when changing something that has been part of our lives for so long. A prime example, other than this situation, is TV. HDTV has been out for how long now? 5-10+ years to the mass market? Yet there are STILL people that won't hear of it. They would pay MORE for a standard TV ... which makes the broadcasters drag their feet as well ... the demand just isn't there for HD broadcasting. (I just upgraded to a HDTV ... it rocks.) We are beginning to be forced into change right now on oil dependency. The rising cost of crude oil will push that faster than any government mandate. I read last week that gasoline could go as high as $4.00 per gallon. I can guarantee that alternative energy will start rolling big time when/if that happens. Note: I do feel that our government should do more. For example, Bush should not have LOWERED the tax deduction for buying hybrid vehicles ... he should have raised it. In fact, he had/has the opportunity to give this technology a huge kick in the a.s by offering larger tax incentives to the end consumer and to the manufacturer/distributor. Craig C. > People in general, not just Americans, are creatures of habit. In the > broad sense, people hate change, especially when changing something [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > by offering larger tax incentives to the end consumer and to the > manufacturer/distributor. One argument I encounter a lot when I mention to gassers that I want a Diesel is "ohh, its hard to find diesel" apparently, they never actually look for it. However, they have a point, there are about half as many Diesel stations then gas station around here (that means I only have about 50 diesel stations in a ten mile radius) If they want something to replace gas they need the infrastructure to back it. You can buy gas on just about every corner, but where do you fill with natural gas, or hydrogen? If the government mandated that every gas station was to carry hydrogen and natural gas, then people might be a little more open to the idea. I am looking forward to seeing $4/gallon gas prices! I want to see all those escalade owners and H2 owners and all those kids that were given a Ford F250 v10 for graduating highschool to spend $120 each time they fill! and it will just cost me $20 to fill my motorcycle! Something that would work well for me is an electric car with a solar panel roof. it would spend just about its entire life outside, and most of the time, parked. Leave it outside for nine hours while I'm at work, and its fully charged for the drive home! never have to fill it, never have to plug it in! If only they were not so UGLY!! > Note: I do feel that our government should > do more. For example, Bush should not have LOWERED the tax deduction > for buying hybrid vehicles ... he should have raised it. In fact, he > had/has the opportunity to give this technology a huge kick in the a.s > by offering larger tax incentives to the end consumer and to the > manufacturer/distributor. But that would hurt his buds in the oil industry. You know, the ones who are largely resposible for getting him into office. AP > The > Hybrid and upcoming hydrogen cars coupled with diesel WILL reduce our > dependence in foriegn oil. Ah, yes. The mythical "hydrogen economy". Greenwash at its best. AP > >> >Its called Hemi, HD, 8.1 liter, H2, Escalade, Yukon, RAM, F250, > >> >Silverado... Funny how ten years ago 220 HP was a lot. Now its [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > for diesel fuel in the asian countries has put a strain on our supply > and has had an impact on the rise of those prices. Agreed, and you can include India and the Ukraine into that mix as well. The point is that this strain isn't going to go away and we have a choice to make. We can either do our part to help reduce the demand or not. Justifications to continue as we have sound good but mean nothing and will ultimately cost us big time. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Agreed, and you can include India and the Ukraine into that mix as well. > The point is that this strain isn't going to go away and we have a choice > to > make. We can either do our part to help reduce the demand or not. > Justifications to continue as we have sound good but mean nothing and will > ultimately cost us big time. Doing nothing is still a desision, and is just as costly. The demand may still rise, but if we get away from it, then not only will that lower the global demand (at least for a little while), but it will allow the US market to spend that money elsewhere. and let the rest of the world deal with the oil shortage. [snip] > Personally I would not feel insecure in a small car I just want a hell > of a lot more horses under my right foot they offer... If you don't think small cars offer enough horsepower then you haven't been looking at the right small cars. Looked at import tuners lately? A Toyota Supra with the appropriate bolt on kit can put 1000 HP under your right foot. Is that enough? A cousin of mine has a Lexus sports car with 300hp under the hood right off the lot. Its performance is somewhere between crazy and insane. With the hybrids, when that electric motor kicks in the accelleration can be neck snapping. Electric motors have a property called "locked rotor torque", which is the torque applied with the rotor held still. It's the highest torque the motor can pull, and it's available right off the line. When a hybrid comes off the line all of the electric motor's torque is available instantly, which is one of the reasons they have reasonably good acceleration off the line even with their heavy load of batteries. > The worlds major user of OIL happens to be China... and last I > heard they are not a nation know for driving cars at all.. Hmm... Do you have a source for that? One thing I recall reading about China is that they're the largest emerging market for cars in the world, and all of the manufacturers are climbing over each other to get sales rights over there. > IF Americans would drive cars that were higher in fuel efficiency I > honestly do not know if it would really make a difference in the price > of oil....on the world market.... It would help a little...but just > how much? Indeed, that is a good question. I think how much depends on the greed of the oil companies and the patience of consumers. AP > >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) Rated at 29 & 37 > >> Racked up 20.4 mpg [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > little car, then the national average MPG would go up and the fuel prices > just might maintain a reasonable price. But driving around in an economy vehicle just doesn't look cool and the typical driver simply cannot have that. It is much better to look cool and do without lots of money that could be used for other things, isn't it? SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving OK so lets do some calculating. I drive a car or truck about 9,000 miles a year. My current vehicles get 12 MPG average so I use 750 gallons of gas a year at $2 per gal that is $1500. All my vehicles are paid for so no payment to make plus they are older so license and insurance are relatively low also repairs which I can do are very cheap. So now if I buy one of these new vehicles that get 60 MPG I would use 150 gallons at $2 per gal $300 for fuel. I expect that my insurance would be about $300 more and my license would be at least $100 more. So $300 + $300 + $100 = $700 now subtract that from $1500 I end up with $800/year for a car payment or $66 per month. Think I can find a dealer that will sell me one of these fuel efficient cars for a payment of $66 a month ? We could work this backwards to find out at what price gas will have to get to before I would be equal to the new car payment. Now if I was driving 90,000 a year I am sure I would be rushing to a dealer to buy one. Ron >>>>The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) Rated at 29 & 37 >>>> Racked up 20.4 mpg [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > typical driver simply cannot have that. It is much better to look cool and > do without lots of money that could be used for other things, isn't it? > OK so lets do some calculating. I drive a car or truck about 9,000 miles > a year. My current vehicles get 12 MPG average so I use 750 gallons of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Ron I have seen five year old trucks for sale with over 400k miles on them. I know quite a few people that commute over 60 miles each way for work. That comes out to over 31k miles a year in JUST commuting to work. Its not just the fuel economy though, its the size of the vehicles. One full size consumes just about as much space as two economy cars. If we got rid of the unnecessary big SUVs and trucks, then traffic would not be as bad ether.. and with better traffic comes a higher average speed, approaching closer to a more efficient speed for the engine. allowing the engine to operate in its more efficient range AND less time is spent sitting in traffic. Less traffic, less stress, less road rage, lower blood pressure and less medication due to stress induced ailments. something else to think about 2000-3000 pounds of steel and aluminum. compared to 5000-7000 pounds of steel and aluminum. Not only would our dependence on foreign oil go down, but our need for steel and aluminum (as well as the needed energy to manipulate that raw materials) will go down. lowering the price of the raw materials associated with building the cars. Smaller tires, less rubber. less glass, less plastic. All materials that we ether produce or import, but what if our consumption was less then our production? then we could export these materials and actually bring some money into this country! > But driving around in an economy vehicle just doesn't look cool and the > typical driver simply cannot have that. It is much better to look cool > and > do without lots of money that could be used for other things, isn't it? I would have to completely agree! come on now, really, can you put a price on the cost of popularity?? Geez, I wouldn't be caught dead riding on last season's wheels! ;-) I wonder, is there a three month lease program?? then I can ALWAYS have something new and trendy! [snip] > But driving around in an economy vehicle just doesn't look cool and the > typical driver simply cannot have that. It is much better to look cool and > do without lots of money that could be used for other things, isn't it? Depends on who you are, I suppose. There are some insecure men who just need that Penis Enhancement Vehicle. AP > [snip] >> But driving around in an economy vehicle just doesn't look cool and the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > AP I like to refer to it as "small manhood syndrome" >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) >> Rated at 29 & 37 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >hybrid did a real-world 47mpg on the highway on a trip to New Jersey and >back from Florida late last year. ============ My original post (a few weeks ago was just because I could not believe these... wonderful... Hybrids were getting such poor (relative to their advertised ) fuel mileage... Not surprised on the mileage your moms Civic got on the trip... Hell my Corvette got 34 mpg on a 400 mile run down the interstate ..with the speed control set at 82 mph... no starting or stopping very little acceleration...pretty level terrain... Still 30 percent less then your moms car...but it made me happy... Bob.... > >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) > >> Rated at 29 & 37 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > these... wonderful... Hybrids were getting such poor (relative to > their advertised ) fuel mileage... Why should this surprise you? If you actually read what was said, you would see that these cars were being driven in their worst possible way and under the worst conditions. If you operate them as they were intended, the mileage would get much closer to what they are advertized to be in many situations. > Not surprised on the mileage your moms Civic got on the trip... > > Hell my Corvette got 34 mpg on a 400 mile run down the interstate > ..with the speed control set at 82 mph... no starting or stopping very > little acceleration...pretty level terrain... Yea, because you were driving it under ideal conditions and not the way it was intended to be driven. If you get on it (since it is a sports car) in the city, I bet that you get about half of that mileage. > Still 30 percent less then your moms car...but it made me happy... I'm sure that it does but that is not realistic driving and I'll bet that a hybrid under those conditions (perhaps not that fast) would be getting closer to 60 MPG. You really need to compare apples to apples. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) >> >> Rated at 29 & 37 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > they were intended, the mileage would get much closer to what they > are advertized to be in many situations. Nonsense - it's exactly the opposite. Advertised mileage is almost always fiction. For many people, the way those cars were driven are considered normal driving. >> Not surprised on the mileage your moms Civic got on the trip... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sports car) in the city, I bet that you get about half of that > mileage. Just like hybrids will get less than half their advertised mileage when they're driven under real world (i.e., horrible) conditions. >> Still 30 percent less then your moms car...but it made me happy... > > I'm sure that it does but that is not realistic driving and I'll bet > that a hybrid under those conditions (perhaps not that fast) would > be getting closer to 60 MPG. You really need to compare apples to > apples. It's very simple - hybrids driven normally in the real world don't get anywhere near their advertised mileage. > >> >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) > >> >> Rated at 29 & 37 [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > always fiction. For many people, the way those cars were driven are > considered normal driving. For the few who complained, I suspect that to be true but once again, they were not driving them the way they were intended to be driven. The example that you gave also had the defroster on all of the time which was a worst case condition for that type of vehicle. I think that I used my defroster about 20 times since I bought it in 97 and I lived in NJ for most of that time so the constant use of the defroster is not a common thing. If you also want to try and drive it like a sports car then the mileage will be significantly reduced but they are not sports cars. > >> Not surprised on the mileage your moms Civic got on the trip... > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Just like hybrids will get less than half their advertised mileage > when they're driven under real world (i.e., horrible) conditions. And what is the advertized mileage of your Vette? The simple fact is that they are capable of significant mileage if you drive them that way and even though that cannot be done all of the time, they will still ALWAYS do better than your Vette under similar situations. > >> Still 30 percent less then your moms car...but it made me happy... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's very simple - hybrids driven normally in the real world don't get > anywhere near their advertised mileage. And your proof of this is where and exactly what is your definition of normal? SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >For the few who complained, I suspect that to be true but once again, they >were not driving them the way they were intended to be driven. The example [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >also want to try and drive it like a sports car then the mileage will be >significantly reduced but they are not sports cars. ========= No arguemnt on them not being sports cars...But I live in Maryland and to be honest my heater is on almost all winter...and my defroster is used almost every morning... In the summer I can and normally do drive without the air conditioner..... But many people use it all the time during the summer... >And what is the advertized mileage of your Vette? The simple fact is that >they are capable of significant mileage if you drive them that way and even >though that cannot be done all of the time, they will still ALWAYS do better >than your Vette under similar situations. I do not know...What I can tell you is that I own 5 Corvettes and a BB Chevelle ( I am in the car hobby)...and have a computer in each garage into which I record every nut, bolt, drop of oil, gallon of gasoline, etc for each of my cars.... The overall average MPG on that Corvette is 24.2 mpg over the entire 69,923 miles I have driven it since new... I will admit that I do not race around town in the car and generally have a fairly light foot... The Chevelle is another story... but I use it differently ...very differently...usually 1./4 mile at a time... Enjoy Bob Griffiths >>For the few who complained, I suspect that to be true but once again, they >>were not driving them the way they were intended to be driven. The [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Bob Griffiths A friend at work has a daily driven Corvette (C6?? not the brand new one, I think its a 2003) she says that with her lead foot, she gets about 19 in the city, and about 30 on her road trips (usually with a lot of triple digit cruising in there) When the car weighs nothing, and has a very low RPM engine traveling at a high speed, it all adds up. >> >> >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) >> >> >> Rated at 29 & 37 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > again, they were not driving them the way they were intended to be > driven. And what is that? You buy a car and you drive it however you drive it. Obviously, if you drive as efficiently as possile, you'll get better mileage than if you race from stoplight to stoplight. > The example that you gave also had the defroster on all of > the time which was a worst case condition for that type of vehicle. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > drive it like a sports car then the mileage will be significantly > reduced but they are not sports cars. I used to live in NJ years ago, and you always drove with the defroster on in the morning simply because of the humidity. Now I live in Florida, and everybody always drives with the A/C on 24/7/365. I suspect it's the same from here through Texas and beyond. The point is that a _lot_ of people use the defroster and a/c a lot more than you might think. That's "normal" driving. >> >> Not surprised on the mileage your moms Civic got on the trip... >> >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > And what is the advertized mileage of your Vette? The Corvette is someone else's. > The simple fact > is that they are capable of significant mileage if you drive them > that way and even though that cannot be done all of the time, they > will still ALWAYS do better than your Vette under similar > situations. Exactly like the hybrids, and every other vehicle on the road. >> >> Still 30 percent less then your moms car...but it made me >> >> happy... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > And your proof of this is where and exactly what is your definition > of normal? My "proof" is what most people are experiencing right now. "Normal" is how most people drive. Most people do not drive the way advertised (i.e., maximum) mileage is achieved. That's not "normal". The next time you go out on the road, observe how most people drive. They're not driving at a steady 45 on a flat, smooth road with no defroster or a/c on and the windows all rolled up. They're speeding up, slowing down, turning, going up and down hills, using their accessories, etc. That's "normal". >And what is that? You buy a car and you drive it however you drive >it. Obviously, if you drive as efficiently as possile, you'll get >better mileage than if you race from stoplight to stoplight. I forget which mag I was browsing at the barbershop yesterday, but the * next to the 52 mpg figure for the Prius city driving said "* constant 20 mph". More realistic figures would probably be attained by stopping and then accelerating to 30-35 mph every 1/4 mile. >>And what is that? You buy a car and you drive it however you drive >>it. Obviously, if you drive as efficiently as possile, you'll get [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > constant 20 mph". More realistic figures would probably be attained > by stopping and then accelerating to 30-35 mph every 1/4 mile. Who drives at a constant 20MPH? around here, its 0-50-0 wait for two minutes idling- 50-0 wait for two minutes.... Same thing with the 55 freeway during rush hour. it will vary from 0 to 80 back to 0 again. If you leave any kind of cushion, even just one carlength, so you can kind of just coast when the car stops, then goes again to smooth out your speed. Someone will cut you off and there goes your cushion. There are just too many cars. Get rid of about 15% of the cars on the freeway (ether by carpool, mass transit, or telecommuting) and the traffic would be a lot better. Get the traffic to move at a steady pace, and everyone's fuel economy will improve. Fewer cars on the road PLUS the improved economy of the cars on the road equates to less fuel burned, less money spent on fuel, and less smog. Hmm, I wonder.. do you think its a "too many cars" thing? or a "too many stupid drivers" thing? Here is SoCal its legal for motorcycles to split traffic. So when traffic gets bad, I split the lanes on my motorcycle. I will be splitting along, then all the sudden, I will pass a car in the middle lane that is doing 45 MPH and everyone is trying to get around them.. after I pass that one "lead slow car" its smooth sailing at 85+. They don't even realize they have two miles of cars backed up behind them. As for on the street with traffic lights. They are getting smarter, but they are still pretty darn dumb. I have spent a countless collective hours waiting at a vacant traffic signal, waiting for the light to turn green for me. I have sat there for as long as ten minutes before, yeah TEN minutes. without a single car go though the green. I also love it when one light turns green, and you see the next light, about 100 yards up just turn yellow for you. then after coming to a full stop, it turns green, and you see the next light 100 yards up turn yellow and you roll up and stop just in time to go again. >As for on the street with traffic lights. They are getting smarter, but they >are still pretty darn dumb. I have spent a countless collective hours [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >next light 100 yards up turn yellow and you roll up and stop just in time to >go again. Timing, my man, Timing. ;-( > As for on the street with traffic lights. They are getting smarter, but they > are still pretty darn dumb. I have spent a countless collective hours > waiting at a vacant traffic signal, waiting for the light to turn green for > me. I have sat there for as long as ten minutes before, yeah TEN minutes. > without a single car go though the green. I also love it when one light I recall a late evening/early morning return from a party stopping for a light out on the edges of College Station, TX. Waited for a few minutes while giving the gal I was with an earful about how humans should not be subjected to the mindless idiocy of machines. Absolutely no one around. Finally, the woman said "Why don't you just go through then!" So I did, and encountered the cop sitting in the dark up ahead waiting for people dumber than stoplights! Got a ticket for running a red light, which I've always felt was really unwarranted. I had actually stopped for it for a period before passing through. Always felt it should have been a warning, but considering I might have flunked a breathalyser at the time, I suppose I made out as well as could be expected. SMH > On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:03:07 GMT, "Trey" <treydog90spam@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > SMH That is especially frustrating on the motorcycle since most the time I dont have enough steel to trip the lights... I will see the "smart" lights cycle though a few times, skipping me since it doesnt see anyone in that lane. > That is especially frustrating on the motorcycle since most the time I dont > have enough steel to trip the lights... I will see the "smart" lights cycle > though a few times, skipping me since it doesnt see anyone in that lane. Yeah, I bicycle commute, so the problem can be even more pronounced. They say you can try leaning the bike over a bit to help the light recognize you're there. More detectable magnetic field? No, matter, never seems to work. And not effective if the bicycle is aluminum, or on a motorcycle that you can only lean over so far. Maybe a motorcycle lying on its side might trip the light. Probably best not to try! SMH If you have a kick stand. Just push it down to touch the ground in the detector area. Al >> That is especially frustrating on the motorcycle since most the time I dont >> have enough steel to trip the lights... I will see the "smart" lights cycle [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >SMH __ Arold "Al" Green Arold "Al" Green wrote: > If you have a kick stand. Just push it down to touch the ground in > the detector area. I have tried this with mixed results. Not enough data to tell if it's me or just some coincidence. IOW, it seems to work sometimes and not other times, all at the same street/light. It's a bother no matter what. ;-) Jeff > Al > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > __ > Arold "Al" Green >> That is especially frustrating on the motorcycle since most the time I >> dont [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that you can only lean over so far. Maybe a motorcycle lying > on its side might trip the light. Probably best not to try! Usually, you can see where they have cut the ground to put the loops in. Passing right over the middle does nothing. I try to hit just inside the side of the loop at a reasonable speed. that seems to trip most of them.. However. I think the signal polls the loops. so if I pull up on a yellow, I know I trip the signal, but by the time its cycled though the other directions, its almost like it forgot I was there... I just roll the bike back a little and then move forward real quick and it trips it again and it turns green. There are some though, where a 4" think steel plate wont trip them! As for bicycles, I have the same problem. My old Canondale is all Aluminum, and my new Litespeed is all Ti. My friend has a Carbon Colnago C40, and seems to be able to trip them some how. This summer, I plan on cycle commuting, save gas, AND get some miles in for the race in October. > My "proof" is what most people are experiencing right now. "Normal" > is how most people drive. Most people do not drive the way advertised [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > up, slowing down, turning, going up and down hills, using their > accessories, etc. That's "normal". Ah. You mean like the "city" course that is used to determine the "city" mileage rating? AP >> My "proof" is what most people are experiencing right now. >> "Normal" [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > AP No, read it again: Like the real world driving that everybody does every day. > >> >> >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) > >> >> >> Rated at 29 & 37 [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > it. Obviously, if you drive as efficiently as possile, you'll get > better mileage than if you race from stoplight to stoplight. Correct but different cars are optimized for different things. A Hybrid is optomized for mileage but to take advantage of that, you need to drive it as efficiently as possible to gain those benefits. > > The example that you gave also had the defroster on all of > > the time which was a worst case condition for that type of vehicle. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > live in Florida, and everybody always drives with the A/C on 24/7/365. > I suspect it's the same from here through Texas and beyond. Perhaps if you cleaned the inside of you windshield every now and then it wouldn't fog up so bad. As for Florida and the deep south, that perhaps is not the best place for a first generation hybrid vehicle. > The point is that a _lot_ of people use the defroster and a/c a lot > more than you might think. That's "normal" driving. Normal for them and in these areas, the current hybrid technology mignt not be the correct fit. You have to be willing to give a little to get a little. > >> >> Not surprised on the mileage your moms Civic got on the trip... > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Exactly like the hybrids, and every other vehicle on the road. Not every vehicle is capable of significant mileage. > >> >> Still 30 percent less then your moms car...but it made me > >> >> happy... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > is how most people drive. Most people do not drive the way advertised > (i.e., maximum) mileage is achieved. That's not "normal". Sounds like justifications and excuses to me. Just because people decide to drive wastefully doesn't make the car a bad thing. > The next time you go out on the road, observe how most people drive. > They're not driving at a steady 45 on a flat, smooth road with no > defroster or a/c on and the windows all rolled up. They're speeding > up, slowing down, turning, going up and down hills, using their > accessories, etc. That's "normal". No, that is normal for the older tech cars but hey, if people want to continue to drive gas sucking pigs then they had better get used to dishing out a large portion of their income for the privilege. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> >> >> >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) >> >> >> >> Rated at 29 & 37 [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Hybrid is optomized for mileage but to take advantage of that, you > need to drive it as efficiently as possible to gain those benefits. Right, but unfortunately that opportunity doesn't present itself all that much in real world driving. Thus the decreased actual mileage results. >> > The example that you gave also had the defroster on all of >> > the time which was a worst case condition for that type of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Perhaps if you cleaned the inside of you windshield every now and > then it wouldn't fog up so bad. a) I've always cleaned the windshields every weekend, and (b) using the defroster's got nothing to do with dirt. It's got everything to do with humidity. > As for Florida and the deep south, > that perhaps is not the best place for a first generation hybrid > vehicle. First, there's a substantial number of people that live in warm climates here in the U.S. There are also a helluva lot of people that use their a/c 24/7/365, even in cooler climates. Running a/c all the time is real world - it's standard equipment, btw. >> The point is that a _lot_ of people use the defroster and a/c a lot >> more than you might think. That's "normal" driving. > > Normal for them and in these areas, the current hybrid technology > mignt not be the correct fit. You have to be willing to give a > little to get a little. Nonsense. Companies selling hybrids know all this, but yet they continue to market their cars as across-the-board alternatives. That's simply not true. It's ridiculous that we'll pay an extra whatever thousand dollars for a car that's not going to get the advertised mileage, and we have to drive it in a "special way" to come anywhere near that advertised mileage. >> >> >> Not surprised on the mileage your moms Civic got on the >> >> >> trip... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Not every vehicle is capable of significant mileage. I'll bite - what is "significant mileage"? Is there some universal cutoff point where a mileage figure becomes "significant"? So maybe 29mpg isn't significant but 30mpg is? >> >> >> Still 30 percent less then your moms car...but it made me >> >> >> happy... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Sounds like justifications and excuses to me. Just because people > decide to drive wastefully doesn't make the car a bad thing. Driving wastefully is not the same as driving normally for most people. Like I've already said below, pick any day and go out and see how people drive. Some will drive conservatively, others will drive wastefully, but most will be driving normally. >> The next time you go out on the road, observe how most people >> drive. They're not driving at a steady 45 on a flat, smooth road [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No, that is normal for the older tech cars Newsflash: It's normal for any car. > but hey, if people want > to continue to drive gas sucking pigs then they had better get used > to dishing out a large portion of their income for the privilege. Very true. >> >> The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) >> >> Rated at 29 & 37 >> >> Racked up 20.4 mpg >> > >> >I have no experience with the Accord hybrid, but my mother's Civic >> >hybrid did a real-world 47mpg on the highway on a trip to New Jersey and >Why should this surprise you? If you actually read what was said, you would >see that these cars were being driven in their worst possible way and under >the worst conditions. If you operate them as they were intended, the >mileage would get much closer to what they are advertized to be in many >situations. What I read said the cars were long term test vehicles...driven during the summer and into the winter...driven normally as you or I may drive...Nowhere did it indicate they were driven in any abnormal way.. The point of the article was that if the driver needed to use the cars defroster or heater or god forbid the air conditioner (things I know at least I "want" to use when required for both saftey and comfort...the fuel effeciency went down the tubes... Honestly IF I were in the market for a new vehicle I would consider buying a hybird but It would be stupid financially to buy one purely to save money on fuel... Bob Griffiths > Honestly IF I were in the market for a new vehicle I would consider > buying a hybird but It would be stupid financially to buy one purely > to save money on fuel... Agreed. The savings is nice, but not enough to pay for the increase in cost over the same model with a 100% gas driven drivetrain, unless you are driving a good distance. In fact, I drive about 140 miles per day ... and even at that, the ROI for a hybrid Civic is negligible. I'm still going to buy a hybrid or other alternative energy vehicle within the next 3 years ... but the thing driving that decision is not saving money ... it's to support the technology that will free us from the grip of the Arabs and improve the environment ... No offense, but the change to alternative energies is not about $$$, it's about doing the RIGHT thing. Craig C. > I'm still going to buy a hybrid or other alternative energy vehicle > within the next 3 years ... but the thing driving that decision is not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No offense, but the change to alternative energies is not about $$$, > it's about doing the RIGHT thing. I don't really see it as a "right thing" or "wrong thing" except of course in political terms. Is it really more "right" burning, say hydrogen, or using electricity via batteries with their own manufacture complications as well as recharge demands? Seems we're simply exchanging one set of positives/negatives of an energy source with another. I like "gasahol". My truck seems to like it too. And the idea I might be helping out some American corn grower has its attractions too. But of course its an energy net loss IIRC in the grand scheme of things. I look forward to the maturation of alternative energies in propelling me about town or keeping me warm during winter, but I don't think there's going to be any great financial or even political liberation coming out of it. Just means some other energy producer instead of Exxon will have their hands in my pocket! SMH >> I'm still going to buy a hybrid or other alternative energy vehicle >> within the next 3 years ... but the thing driving that decision is not [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > SMH no, it will still be Exxon. Instead of buying Exxon gas, you be buying Exxon hydrogen. Energy companies will always adapt to keep your money flowing their way. >> I'm still going to buy a hybrid or other alternative energy vehicle >> within the next 3 years ... but the thing driving that decision is not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > too. But of course its an energy net loss IIRC in the grand scheme > of things. That depends on who you choose to believe. Properly produced, ethanol produces a net energy _gain_ of about 1.2:1, and can have other positive environmental benefits as well. Look here http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html for more. The major problem is that gasohol, or e85 if you can get it, requires _anhydrous_ ethanol, and most anhydrous ethanol in the US is made not from corn, but from _coal_. > I look forward to the maturation of alternative energies in propelling > me about town or keeping me warm during winter, but I don't think > there's going to be any great financial or even political liberation > coming out of it. Just means some other energy producer instead of > Exxon will have their hands in my pocket! It'll probably be Exxon. Don't understimate the oil companies. They can see the writing on the wall just as well as anyone else, and they have been for some years now moving into the alternative energy arena. AP >>Honestly IF I were in the market for a new vehicle I would consider >>buying a hybird but It would be stupid financially to buy one purely [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are driving a good distance. In fact, I drive about 140 miles per day > ... and even at that, the ROI for a hybrid Civic is negligible. Give it a few more years and the costs for the hybrid systems will come down. I hope. > I'm still going to buy a hybrid or other alternative energy vehicle > within the next 3 years ... but the thing driving that decision is not > saving money ... it's to support the technology that will free us from > the grip of the Arabs and improve the environment ... Something like one of these? http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm ;-) > No offense, but the change to alternative energies is not about $$$, > it's about doing the RIGHT thing. Hear, hear! AP >>>>The Honda Accord (with the electric motor) >>>> Rated at 29 & 37 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > mileage would get much closer to what they are advertized to be in many > situations. Indeed, it makes the reader wonder if the test was intentionally rigged to get the absolutely worst mileage out of the hybrids. That would be par for the course with hybrid bashers. >>Not surprised on the mileage your moms Civic got on the trip... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > was intended to be driven. If you get on it (since it is a sports car) in > the city, I bet that you get about half of that mileage. Well, hey. You can't be getting on it _all_ the time. They really do get pretty good mileage when they're cruising, and the engine only has to produce ~20 hp to keep the thing at highway speed. >>Still 30 percent less then your moms car...but it made me happy... > > I'm sure that it does but that is not realistic driving and I'll bet that a > hybrid under those conditions (perhaps not that fast) would be getting > closer to 60 MPG. You really need to compare apples to apples. Nope. My mother's boyfriend was driving, and he had the cruise control set at 85mph the whole time. Real world 47mpg on the highway. AP |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.