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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / May 2005Converting NV4500 to NV5600
How about a dicussion about converting a 2500 QC, 360, NV4500 manual over to a 6 speed NV5600. I've heard the driveshaft lengths are different, and the flywheel. I'm considering going this route since I'll be adding the ProCharger and a few other items in the not too distant future. So, let the knowledge roll....  Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... I don't know why you would want to do this. The NV5600 is big, heavy, low geared and slow shifting. Unless you have 600+ ft lbs at 1800 rpm, it will add no value. Steve > How about a dicussion about converting a 2500 QC, 360, NV4500 > manual over to a 6 speed NV5600. I've heard the driveshaft lengths > are different, and the flywheel. I'm considering going this route since > I'll be adding the ProCharger and a few other items in the not too > distant future. So, let the knowledge roll.... Closer gear ratio basically. That and the 5600 is stronger than the 4500. The 4500 weighs almost the same as the 5600...only difference being thicker shafts, extra gears and such. They are housed in the same casing and use the same bell housing so it's not as big of a deal as you may think. Neither of these trannies are fast shifters. Only difference is the 5600 is a six speed whereas the 4500 is a 5 speed. So...it will indeed add value when coupled to the supercharger and other items I'll be installing. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... >I don't know why you would want to do this. The NV5600 is big, heavy, low >geared and slow shifting. Unless you have 600+ ft lbs at 1800 rpm, it will [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> I'll be adding the ProCharger and a few other items in the not too >> distant future. So, let the knowledge roll.... > shafts, extra gears and such. They are housed in the same casing and use > the I coulda sworn the 4500 was an aluminum case, and the 5600 was cast-iron... ?? > whereas the 4500 is a 5 speed. So...it will indeed add value when coupled > to the supercharger and other items I'll be installing. How? By adding an additional gear between low and 1:1, that you'll probably just skip over anyway? I agree here - I don't see the benefits at all... you're not going to put out enough power from a 360 to break the NV4500... those trannies ran just fine behind some pretty beefed-up Cummins engines, putting out way more torque than you could ever hope to muster with the 360, and the only real problem was with the 5th gear nut backing off, due to high torque at low RPMs vibrating the nut loose - another problem you won't have with a 360. No, the 4500 is cast iron as well. I won't be skipping gears all the time. Believe it or not, there comes a time when some, like myself can benefit from the additional gearing...like maybe plowing snow. It's a big jump from 1st to 2nd on the 4500. Also, the larger clutch will benefit on the plowing and with heavy loads. I actually started this to see what sort of "input" people had as to being able to make it happen....not as a request for nay-sayers to shoot it down because "they" don't think it's worth it. That being said, please lets limit the input to positive only on this thread and if you want to post negatives...start a different thread as a courtesy to me and others that may be interested in possibly doing the same conversion. TIA. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... >> shafts, extra gears and such. They are housed in the same casing and use >> the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > backing off, due to high torque at low RPMs vibrating the nut loose - > another problem you won't have with a 360. > No, the 4500 is cast iron as well. I won't be skipping gears > all the time. Believe it or not, there comes a time when some, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > thread as a courtesy to me and others that may be interested > in possibly doing the same conversion. TIA. A question if I may. Why do you feel the change will be benificial for snow plowing? Roy Closer gearing between 1st and 2nd is the biggest reason. Also, I feel the clutch on the 5600 (13") will be better suited and will give me more miles. I also will be starting to pull some pretty heavy loads as well. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... > >> No, the 4500 is cast iron as well. I won't be skipping gears [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Roy I am interested in the thread for my own project. So, for comparisons sake a 5600 weighs 360lbs and a 4500 weights 250lbs wet. 4500 input TQ rating 460ft-lbs on a 1 1/4" 10 spline shaft. 5600 input TQ rating 550ft-lbs on a 1 3/8" 10 spline shaft. Then how can anyone say they're basically the same gearbox other then the extra gear? When that's obviously not the case. > No, the 4500 is cast iron as well. I won't be skipping gears > all the time. Believe it or not, there comes a time when some, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > backing off, due to high torque at low RPMs vibrating the nut loose - > > another problem you won't have with a 360. With regards to the casing they are the same. If you follow the thread down from the beginning, you'll see the differences stated. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... >I am interested in the thread for my own project. > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >> > backing off, due to high torque at low RPMs vibrating the nut loose - >> > another problem you won't have with a 360. I did read the whole thread, I don't know what to say other than that is not correct. The cases are not at all the same. The 4500 is a top loader transmission & the 5600 is a rear loader. The only similarity there is that they're both cast iron. So my question still stands. > With regards to the casing they are the same. If you follow > the thread down from the beginning, you'll see the differences [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > >> > backing off, due to high torque at low RPMs vibrating the nut loose - > >> > another problem you won't have with a 360. And by "Rearloader" I meant "Endloader" gearbox. Hhmm....good info I guess. But please explain what you mean by endloader. It is my understanding that the differences are basically in the bell housing, larger shafts and longer overall assembly which will necessitate changing the lengths of the driveshafts. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... > And by "Rearloader" I meant "Endloader" gearbox. 4500 - everything comes out the top, shafts and all. Unbolt the shifter, then the coverplate which holds the shiftrails comes off the top. The whole top of the case is exposed. 5600 - You can't remove the top of the case. The rails and shafts come out the end. There's one link that was posted in this thread that shows pictures of both. It's clear to see that each case is constructed very different. > Hhmm....good info I guess. But please explain what you mean by > endloader. It is my understanding that the differences are basically [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I may have to change my signature...... > > And by "Rearloader" I meant "Endloader" gearbox. That's what I thought you meant. The shifter comes out in the same location on both trannies....that's the main point with regards to ability to fit. Doesn't matter to me how it is disassembled...that'd happen when it's out of the body anyway. The input shaft and output shaft are in the same location as well so it should just be a matter of modifications to a few parts to fit. From info that has been sent to me so far, I may just need an adapter plate for the bell housing and modify the lengths of the driveshafts. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... > 4500 - everything comes out the top, shafts and all. Unbolt the shifter, > then the coverplate which holds the shiftrails comes off the top. The [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> I may have to change my signature...... >> > And by "Rearloader" I meant "Endloader" gearbox. I see what you're getting at now. You don't care how the cases are constructed, just the physical size differences for swapping one with the other. So when you said the cases are the same you were just ignorant to the fact that they are not at all the same. Your statement "The input shaft and output shaft are in the same location as well so it should just be a matter of modifications to a few parts to fit." I find pretty funny. So you want to try and swap internals from a 4500 to a 5600? Good luck with that. For starters the overdrive on the 4500 is out the back of the main case. Thus the problem with the 5th gear nut backing off. The 5600 overdrive is on the main shaft in the front of the case. Then none of the gears would be swapable that would put the gear ratios out. And the syncros, why would you even want to swap those. Or are you just talking about modifying a few parts on the truck to be able to swap them? The 5600 is 5 1/2" longer than a 4500. So rear driveshaft needs to be cut and front needs to be lengthened. If you use a pre-'99 nv5600 you'll have the weaker version of it. it will have a 1 1/4" 12spline input shaft with a 12.25" clutch and a smaller pilot bearing. the 2000+ model year nv5600's have an upgraded input shaft at 1 3/8" 10 spline that uses a 13" clutch and slightly larger pilot bearing. If you end up useing a 24valve flywheel you'll need the 3/4" aluminum spacer for the starter. Or use a 12valve crossover flywheel (thats pre-drilled for the 13" clutch) then you don't need the starter spacer. Lots of people have done the swap, theres nothing new there. Myself, I'm in the process of putting an '01 nv5600 13"clutch behind a '95 12 valve. > That's what I thought you meant. The shifter comes out in the same > location on both trannies....that's the main point with regards to ability [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >> I may have to change my signature...... > >> > And by "Rearloader" I meant "Endloader" gearbox. >I see what you're getting at now. You don't care how the cases are > constructed, just the physical size differences for swapping one with the > other. Exactly. > So when you said the cases are the same you were just ignorant to the > fact that they are not at all the same. No...no ignorance. Just in your misunderstanding of what my plans are. > Your statement "The input shaft and output shaft are in the same location > as well so it should just be a matter of modifications to a few parts to > fit." I find pretty funny. So you want to try and swap internals from a > 4500 > to a 5600? Good luck with that. No one said anything about putting internals from a 56 into a 45. I think you again misunderstood. > Or are you just talking about modifying a few parts on the truck to be > able > to swap them? That's exactly what my plans are. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... >I see what you're getting at now. You don't care how the cases are > constructed, just the physical size differences for swapping one with the [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] >> >> I may have to change my signature...... >> >> > And by "Rearloader" I meant "Endloader" gearbox. I follow you now. I got thrown off track when you started talking about them being housed in the same case. I will be useing a crossover flywheel. and a np205 behind it. This is all in my '84 crew cab Chevy, so I can't say any thing to what else needs to be modified in a Dodge. But I believe the 5600 to be a good fit for the powerband of a 12 valve. Here's a screaming side-by-side comparison. NV4500 (TOP) NV5600 (BOTTOM) http://members.shaw.ca/luke76/Photos/NV45005600.jpg > Hhmm....good info I guess. But please explain what you mean by > endloader. It is my understanding that the differences are basically [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I may have to change my signature...... > > And by "Rearloader" I meant "Endloader" gearbox. >> shafts, extra gears and such. They are housed in the same casing and use >> the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > backing off, due to high torque at low RPMs vibrating the nut loose - > another problem you won't have with a 360. I have both. A 92 W250 and an 04 2500. Both are 4X4's. The NV4500 shifts much easier than the 5600. Driving the 04 empty is a chore with the six speed. The ratio splits are much better suited to pulling a heavy load. Can't imagine how slow it would shift if the engine was capable of pulling 5,000 RPM. It's the 3-4 shift that's wide with the 4500. IMHO, they would be well off coming up with a decent automatic. In the 04 I find myself wanting to use 2, 4, and 6th. The owner's manual says not to skip gears. Is this because they think we'll torture the synchros? Or, is there another reason? Ironically, I never feel the need to skip shift the 92. I view it as a HD three speed with overdrive and granny low. Al Hhmm...maybe I need to find a 6 speed here and take it for a spin. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... > >>> shafts, extra gears and such. They are housed in the same casing and [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Al > Hhmm...maybe I need to find a 6 speed here and take it for a spin. Hey! I thought nay-sayers weren't allowed here anymore... now you're actually CONSIDERING taking a contrary opinion?? I'm declaring shenanigans... No I'm not. And he was stating his experience with his 5600 which I find beneficial. Personally, I don't recall the 5600 trannied Ram I drove to be any more difficult but maybe I need to take one for another spin. I was obviously not turned off by the 5600 or I wouldn't be considering doing this. Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... >> Hhmm...maybe I need to find a 6 speed here and take it for a spin. > > Hey! I thought nay-sayers weren't allowed here anymore... now you're > actually CONSIDERING taking a contrary opinion?? > > I'm declaring shenanigans... > How about a dicussion about converting a 2500 QC, 360, NV4500 > manual over to a 6 speed NV5600. I've heard the driveshaft lengths > are different, and the flywheel. I'm considering going this route > since I'll be adding the ProCharger and a few other items in the not > too distant future. So, let the knowledge roll.... http://dodgeram.org/tech/transmission/nv5600_spec.html See the swap information link on this page. > How about a dicussion about converting a 2500 QC, 360, NV4500 > manual over to a 6 speed NV5600. I've heard the driveshaft lengths > are different, and the flywheel. I'm considering going this route since > I'll be adding the ProCharger and a few other items in the not too > distant future. So, let the knowledge roll.... http://www.drivetrain.com/nv5600.html I don't know about your 4500, but my 4500 is smooth, its slick and aluminum. It successfully worked against some significant loads on my 360 powered 1500 for years. My only complaint was the 3 - 4 backlash, but it worked flawlessly. On my '04 3500 Cummins dually, my 5600 is hard work. It is MUCH bigger and MUCH heavier. The pilot shaft is 1.250 in diameter. The 4500 pilot shaft is .750. You will never, blower or otherwise, ever create the low rpm torque the 5600 is designed to handle, with the 360. In full NASCAR trim you might see 600 ft lbs at 6200 rpm. A .750 pilot shaft will handle that just fine. I am not being negative. I am giving you damn good advice and I might add, for free. Now for the clutch, that's a different story. The 360 clutch is weak and needs help, but then again so does the 13 on the Cummins. I can easy smoke both of them with just a little abuse. However, if you are gentle and let them both hook up before applying power, you can get by for thousands of miles. Steve >> How about a dicussion about converting a 2500 QC, 360, NV4500 >> manual over to a 6 speed NV5600. I've heard the driveshaft lengths [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.drivetrain.com/nv5600.html What year is the truck your 4500 is in? Signature_________________________ Laszlo Almasi Carolina Watercraft Works, Inc. "In the battle between money and love, money will always triumph" I may have to change my signature...... >I don't know about your 4500, but my 4500 is smooth, its slick and >aluminum. It successfully worked against some significant loads on my 360 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> http://www.drivetrain.com/nv5600.html >I don't know about your 4500, but my 4500 is smooth, its slick and >aluminum. It successfully worked against some significant loads on my 360 >powered 1500 Did you swap that in? I thought the 1500's only came with a NV3500, and then only with the 5.2L. The 5.9L only came with an auto in the 1500's... > that just fine. I am not being negative. I am giving you damn good advice > and I might add, for free. Settle down with the 'for free', "Brent"... no one's holding a gun to your head here - you post because you want to, no other reason. > you are gentle and let them both hook up before applying power, you can > get by for thousands of miles. A clutch upgrade is certainly warranted if he's going to be putting higher HP through it... I ran a Centerforce DF on my 2500 with an NV4500 putting out about 350HP, 500lb.ft., and 38" tires. It's still holding up fine for the current owner. Like you said, I smoked the stock clutch in about 5,000 miles :) |
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