 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / June 2005Emulate injectors - how?
Dodge Durango 99 5.9L, converted to run on LPG (single point). When running on LPG injectors are disconnected to prevent them from working (or rather the common positive lead is routed thru resistor so that voltage drop on injectors is insufficient for them to operate), and naturally PCM complains about open injector circuits. Alldata is pretty vague about P0201-P0208 codes, and only says "if induction kick is not detected PCM will set the code". Apparently it checks not just for correct resistance but also for the 'inductive kick'. Anybody knows how to properly emulate injectors on this engine? Peter Why don't you just disconnect the fuel pump and let the injectors operate normally.  SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Dodge Durango 99 5.9L, converted to run on LPG (single point). When running > on LPG injectors are disconnected to prevent them from working (or rather [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Peter > Why don't you just disconnect the fuel pump and let the injectors operate > normally. I'm not sure that'd be wise. Many injector designs depend on fuel flow to cool the solenoid windings (i.e., to prevent them overheating and cooking). >> Why don't you just disconnect the fuel pump and let the injectors operate >> normally. > > I'm not sure that'd be wise. Many injector designs depend on fuel flow to > cool the solenoid windings (i.e., to prevent them overheating and > cooking). I'm not sure it's a good idea, too. Fuel pumps are designed to work continuously, and disconnecting it could be yet another reason for CEL to come on. Peter > >> Why don't you just disconnect the fuel pump and let the injectors operate > >> normally. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > continuously, and disconnecting it could be yet another reason for CEL to > come on. While it is possible that the fuel injectors may overheat, the CEL will not be set by the fuel pump being disconnected. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> >> Why don't you just disconnect the fuel pump and let the injectors >operate [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >While it is possible that the fuel injectors may overheat, the CEL will not >be set by the fuel pump being disconnected. There may be a fuel pressure sensor which would be triggered IIRC late Volvo's have one. Incidentally my fuel pump does not run continuously. There is a pressure switch on the rail which controls it. If you listen you can hear the pump start up then after a few seconds switch off when first switching on the ignition. I run my LR 4.0 litre V8 with injectors running and pump off and have done so for 50k+ miles. Switch back to petrol and absolutely no problem. We did this on the advice of a technical consultant in this field who advised us that these injectors do not rely on petrol for any form of cooling or lubrication. However I don't recall whether he was actually referring to "all" injectors. Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting > Incidentally my fuel pump does not run continuously. There is a > pressure switch on the rail which controls it. You're sure you're not seeing a fuel pressure regulator? > If you listen you can hear the pump start up then after a few seconds > switch off when first switching on the ignition. That's how most all electric pumps are set up -- most systems don't toggle the pump with any kind of a pressure switch, though. The momentary pump run upon switching the ignition on is just the prime pulse. Usually just a plain old temp/time pump duration lookup in the ECM, or even just a fixed-time momentary run. DS >There may be a fuel pressure sensor which would be triggered IIRC late >Volvo's have one. Incidentally my fuel pump does not run continuously. >There is a pressure switch on the rail which controls it. If you listen >you can hear the pump start up then after a few seconds switch off when >first switching on the ignition. however, my 3.5 hotwire which may not be the same system runs the pump initially when you switch on as you describe, and then stops, but AIUI this is because it detects no ignition activity, but when you turn the engine the pump starts again and appears to run continuously thereafter. >I run my LR 4.0 litre V8 with injectors >running and pump off and have done so for 50k+ miles. Switch back to >petrol and absolutely no problem. We did this on the advice of a >technical consultant in this field who advised us that these injectors >do not rely on petrol for any form of cooling or lubrication. However I >don't recall whether he was actually referring to "all" injectors. On mine, again, I have 2 relays which interrupt the injector supply to each bank; these have a wiring loom with 4 sockets and 4 plugs; you unplug the injector plug from the injector and plug it into the socket instead, then plug the other end of the wiring onto the injector. They have a delay on switch-off which allows the LPG to get through from the mixer. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that Confidence: Before important work meetings, boost your confidence by reading a few pages from "The Tibetan Book of the Dead" from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. >>> >> Why don't you just disconnect the fuel pump and let the injectors >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > you can hear the pump start up then after a few seconds switch off when > first switching on the ignition. Depends on the vehicle in question. Most fuel pumps run continuously and pressure regulation is done by releasing fuel from the rail back to the fuel tank. Some late model vehicles simply moved this regulation fuction back to the fuel pump itself, but it still runs continuously. I dont' know about your specific vehicle, but on the ones I'm familiar with, the only reason that the fuel pump shuts off a few seconds after turning on the key is because the auto shut-down system isn't detecting ignition pulses and kills the fuel pump. As soon as you start cranking the engine, the fuel pump comes back on and (on these vehicles) STAYS on. >>>> >> Why don't you just disconnect the fuel pump and let the injectors >>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >ignition pulses and kills the fuel pump. As soon as you start cranking >the engine, the fuel pump comes back on and (on these vehicles) STAYS on. You could be right, but it's done 50k+ miles on LPG with typically the petrol pump used once a day just to prime the system to start on petrol to avoid a lot of cranking to get the gas through if its stood for a while. I actually put the switch back to gas before actually starting the engine. Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting >> >> Why don't you just disconnect the fuel pump and let the injectors >operate [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >While it is possible that the fuel injectors may overheat, the CEL will not >be set by the fuel pump being disconnected. I've heard warnings against firing electronic injectors with no fuel, as well. you need an injector emulator. I don't know where you get one, but there are such things as many of the more modern cars need 'em. 'course, if the computer is putting a warning light on, you could just remove the bulb... SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994) In uk.rec.cars.fuel.lpg Austin Shackles <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote: > you need an injector emulator. I don't know where you get one, but there > are such things as many of the more modern cars need 'em. They are just electric solenoids... Perhaps a bunch of similar current draw relays switching nothing in particular? SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > Dodge Durango 99 5.9L, converted to run on LPG (single point). When running > on LPG injectors are disconnected to prevent them from working (or rather [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Peter If it were me, I'd probably just ignore the check-engine light :-) But I wonder if you could wind a set of 8 iron-core electromagnets to be the same inductance as a fuel injector, and then have the LPG system cut over to the bank of "dummy" injectors. The fact that they don't have a moving pintle might affect the waveform a bit, but I bet it wouldn't be enough to trip the computer. It would add a lot of complexity since you would have to put in 8 relays to switch over from the real injectors to the dummies, intstead of a single relay to cut in the resistor on the common side. >> Dodge Durango 99 5.9L, converted to run on LPG (single point). When >> running on LPG injectors are disconnected to prevent them from working [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> > If it were me, I'd probably just ignore the check-engine light :-) I've considered that ;-) However this way I may miss other reasons CEL is on > But I wonder if you could wind a set of 8 iron-core electromagnets to be > the same inductance as a fuel injector, and then have the LPG system cut I don't know what is the injector inductance. Alldata only specifies resistance of 12 ohms > over to the bank of "dummy" injectors. The fact that they don't have a > moving pintle might affect the waveform a bit, but I bet it wouldn't be > enough to trip the computer. It would add a lot of complexity since you > would have to put in 8 relays to switch over from the real injectors to > the dummies, intstead of a single relay to cut in the resistor on the > common side. Yep, 8 relays it is. I've considered it, but this would mean ungainly bundle of wires, relays and coils of unknown inductance (or injectors from junkyard). Are there relays that will switch 4/8 separate circuits? Peter >>over to the bank of "dummy" injectors. The fact that they don't have a >>moving pintle might affect the waveform a bit, but I bet it wouldn't be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of wires, relays and coils of unknown inductance (or injectors from > junkyard). Are there relays that will switch 4/8 separate circuits? You can get 4-pole double-throw relays, can't remember where I seen them but I definitely came across them as I was going to use it as part of a car-phone kit with the two front speakers (two wires in each being switched hence the 4-pole required). Never seen an 8-pole, but it would be pretty huge packaging wise - the 4PDT has 14 pins! Paul. just buy an emulator! i know AEB make them for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder vehicles. wireing it in takes under an hour too :) > Dodge Durango 99 5.9L, converted to run on LPG (single point). When running > on LPG injectors are disconnected to prevent them from working (or rather [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Peter > just buy an emulator! i know AEB make them for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder > vehicles. wireing it in takes under an hour too :) Fairly pricey. A good 4-cyl emulator with coils instead of resistors will cost about 70$ (equivalent of). Do you know where in EU I can mail-order them for less? Peter >>just buy an emulator! i know AEB make them for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder >>vehicles. wireing it in takes under an hour too :) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Peter Far better get another set of injectors, use the same connectors, neat job. If you want to cool them use water and a small circulation pump and a small heatsink (aluminium box). When I have developed ECUs it's always been better to use real loads. Wire wound resistors do not give the same load characteristics. Happy tinkering. >>just buy an emulator! i know AEB make them for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder >>vehicles. wireing it in takes under an hour too :) That's what I'm talkin' 'bout when I posted "I hope someone presents you with the answer (which it would seem would be simple and off-the-shelf rather than you having to re-invent the wheel so-to-speak)". > Fairly pricey. A good 4-cyl emulator with coils instead of resistors will > cost about 70$ (equivalent of). Do you know where in EU I can mail-order > them for less? By the time you got thru buying parts and taking the time to wire up and debug your "one-of-a-kind" design, you'd wish you had chosen the simple off-the-shelf solution. Of course, nothing wrong with trying to find a better price. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > By the time you got thru buying parts and taking the time to wire up and > debug your "one-of-a-kind" design, you'd wish you had chosen the simple > off-the-shelf solution. That there is an Engineering Truth. Bill, did I ever tell you about the turn signals on the UM Solar Car of '99? >>By the time you got thru buying parts and taking the time to wire up and >>debug your "one-of-a-kind" design, you'd wish you had chosen the simple >>off-the-shelf solution. > > That there is an Engineering Truth. Bill, did I ever tell you about the > turn signals on the UM Solar Car of '99? I don't recall ever hearing it. Lay it on me! Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') I know nothing of LPG conversions (but I do know something about back-EMF/inductive kick). I guess I'm left wondering how someone doing the conversion knew enough about putting in the resistors to fool the computer but didn't know that the lack of inductive kick would create a computer problem (i.e., didn't know enough to do a totally successful real-world conversion). But I guess that doesn't help you. I hope someone presents you with the answer (which it would seem would be simple and off-the-shelf rather than you having to re-invent the wheel so-to-speak). Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x') > Dodge Durango 99 5.9L, converted to run on LPG (single point). When running > on LPG injectors are disconnected to prevent them from working (or rather [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Peter |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.