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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / June 2005

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Octane question (For the Octane Savvy)

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Trey - 04 Jun 2005 01:57 GMT
Ok folks I am sure this one has been beaten into the ground many times.
However, I am now on a quest. Sort of.  A friend of mine had an interesting
view to share on the topic of 87 octane vs 91 octane (low vs high) Below is
his response to my statement (which is below his).
For the record, he has a Nissan Sentra, Spec-v, his wife has a Dodge Noen
(both run 91) I have a Dodge Dakota, and the bike I was referring to in my
post was my old Suzuki SV650s. (I run 87 in both, as per their owner's
manuals)

I know there are a few guys here that work for the oil companies. Do you
happen to know where I might find, in writing, on a fuel company's web site
that states that the only difference is the octane rating, and NOT the
detergents? (or proof stating otherwise)
I will be researching as best I can during the weekend, but any direction
would be appreciated.

------------------------------------------------
Yes, i've read some very very extensive articles on gasoline octane. Here's
a few notes:

- 91 will always run better than 87.
- 91 from the different gas companies is all DRASTICALLY different
- Running 91 on a car that doesn't need it WILL NOT damage the car. It will
make it run just the same as what the car is tuned for, but it will allow an
extra margin of safety from unpleasant car conditions (i.e. heat soaked
radiator causing overheating, creating knock conditions, 91 will not require
the ECU to compensate nearly as much or as early as if it was on 87)
- 91 octane at most gas stations will contain extra detergents and cleaners
which will prevent your injectors from clogging up as easy, keep the valves
cleaner, and keep all related fuel lines/pump cleaner and free of debris.
- 91 octane at 76 or Shell is considered the absolute cream of the crop for
Southern California. The difference between these two and
Cheveron/Exxon/Mobil/Generic brand is HUGE. Some stock cars are noticing a
5-15% power drop from just using the wrong brand of 91 octane.
- For reference, your air conditioner will sap around 10% of your cars
horsepower when turned on.
- Also for the record, if you do the math with a 10-11 gallon fillup, thats
only an extra $2 each time you fill up (1-2 times a week means an extra
$8-$16 a month) for a cleaner engine and safer driving condition. Thats
worth the extra cost in my book.

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Trey
Date: Jun 3, 2005 4:18 PM

Have you actually read up on what makes 91, 91? or what the three grades do?
If the car is not designed for it, the higher grade can actually damage teh
car. My truck for example, it notes not to run 91.
91 can degrade performance in a car designed for 87. Some cars (like your
spec-v) spec that it will run on 87, but to use 89 for best performance. In
that case, the car WILL run on 87, but the knock sensor will retard the
timing (reducing power) to keep it from knocking. and is able to advance the
timing with the 89.
I remember my motorcycle actually felt down on power when I ran 91, it
actually ran better on 87.
as for being "negligibly more expensive than 87" its about a .$20/gallon
difference. Doesnt sound like much, but when your buying 20 gallons at a
time, and get 12 MPG, it adds up VERY fast. Thats an extra $200 a year Im
just blowing out the tailpipe of the truck.
Steve Lusardi - 04 Jun 2005 10:14 GMT
Trey,
This is a loaded question. First, there are no detergents in fuel. Second,
there are additives and they are area specific, not brand specific. In most
cases the fuel at the pumps all come from the same local refinery. Different
states require different additive packages for ecology and weather reasons.
These packages typically change throughout the year. The worst of these
additives is MTBF. It is a form of Ether. This stuff is bad for everything,
including the gasoline itself. It will cause seal deterioration, fuel
gelling, skin damage, you name it. Generally, gasoline having this stuff
must be used within 90 days or else. Next wives tale to smother is there is
more power in 91 than in 87. Energy content is the same. Do not believe the
label on the pump, you could be buying anything. There are simply not enough
industry controls to validate conformity and eliminate cheating. Your best
bet is to buy fuel from a station you have a successful history with.
Lastly, never use more octane than your motor needs to be knock free, it is
a waste of money. The actual octane level the engine needs is a product of
engine design with consideration of the following factors. Mechanical
compression ratio, camshaft timing, inlet and exhaust restrictions and
operating temperature.
Steve

> Ok folks I am sure this one has been beaten into the ground many times.
> However, I am now on a quest. Sort of.  A friend of mine had an
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> time, and get 12 MPG, it adds up VERY fast. Thats an extra $200 a year Im
> just blowing out the tailpipe of the truck.
Coasty - 04 Jun 2005 10:55 GMT
Just a follow-up 87 burns at a faster rate than 91 octane fuel.  Also, use
what your owners manual or the manufacturer recommends.  I know my autos say
use 87 and my bike says use 87 or higher.  I use higher because it prevents
knocking when the bike gets hot especially in traffic.

Signature

Coasty
Semper Paratus
(Always Ready)

> Trey,
> This is a loaded question. First, there are no detergents in fuel. Second,
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>> time, and get 12 MPG, it adds up VERY fast. Thats an extra $200 a year Im
>> just blowing out the tailpipe of the truck.
RamMan@dodgecity.cc - 04 Jun 2005 20:07 GMT
>Just a follow-up 87 burns at a faster rate than 91 octane fuel.  Also, use
>what your owners manual or the manufacturer recommends.  I know my autos say
>use 87 and my bike says use 87 or higher.  I use higher because it prevents
>knocking when the bike gets hot especially in traffic.

Coasty is correct; 87 octane gasoline does burn faster. Regarding the
previous poster's comment about refineries, that too is correct. Gasoline
is gasoline. The refineries all crank out 87-octane Regular-Unleaded. What
makes the difference in 87 or 89 or higher octane gasoline is ADDITIVES.
Contrary to urban legend 91 (or 93) octane gasoline is not more highly
refined or more "pure". Gasoline is gasoline, period.

When your vehicle runs poorly on a certain brand and better on a different
brand (octane rating otherwise being the same) likely what is causing the
performance difference is the additives. Different brands use different
formulations based on their own research and marketing.

Yes, gasoline is also custom-blended for different areas, altitudes,
seasons and emissions performance.

You are wise to follow your owner's manual when selecting the fuel octane
rating. If your vehicle performs poorly on the recommended octane then
perhaps you should take it to the dealer to find out why.

Using a higher-than-recommended octane is foolish. It may give you a warm,
fuzzy feeling to squander money needlessly, but you're impressing no one.
Jerry - 06 Jun 2005 20:32 GMT
>>Just a follow-up 87 burns at a faster rate than 91 octane fuel.  Also, use
>>what your owners manual or the manufacturer recommends.  I know my autos say
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Using a higher-than-recommended octane is foolish. It may give you a warm,
> fuzzy feeling to squander money needlessly, but you're impressing no one.

Lower octane gas does burn faster than high octane but only under
identical combustion chamber conditions.  Octane is nothing more than a
measure of the anti- knock characteristics of a given fuel.  Running
higher octane than what the manual calls for or throwing in those
bottles that raise the octane level only keep company CEO's happy and
your wallet thinner.

Jerry
nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca - 04 Jun 2005 20:08 GMT
>Just a follow-up 87 burns at a faster rate than 91 octane fuel.  Also, use
>what your owners manual or the manufacturer recommends.  I know my autos say
>use 87 and my bike says use 87 or higher.  I use higher because it prevents
>knocking when the bike gets hot especially in traffic.

To date, with about 38 years behind me in the trade, I have NEVER
experienced an engine running worse on 91 than on 87. I have never
seen mileage decrease by using higher octane fuel.
I HAVE seen many engines that specify regular fuel run much better,
and get better mileage, on super.

As for the additives, refinery capacity is shared, but additive packs
are added at the tank farm - often directly into the tanker, and these
additives ARE brand specific. Some ARE detergents. Some are
oxygenators. And SOME premium fuels will definitely help the engine
run cleaner.

Some additive packs cause problems too, like the problem over the last
few years with fuel guages on some models of vehicles using Shell (
and apparently one or two other brands) fuel.

There are more problems with different BRANDS of fuel causing engines
to run better, or worse, than with different octanes, per se. It
depends what is being used as the octane booster in the fuel. Some of
the "Equine Urine" being sold as gasoline in some parts of North
America won't run right in a car requiring 91 OR 87 octane.
Steve W. - 04 Jun 2005 20:21 GMT
Actually the additive packages AND detergents are different between most
brands.
Techron is a detergent package that is advertised as such, but most
companies have a similar package as well. These are needed to keep the
entire fuel system clean and functional. They reduce gum formation and
break down any existing deposits.
The base stock MAY be the same for each brand though. The states
themselves do NOT require different packages, however the companies may
change formulations to help reduce the effects of the seasons on
emissions.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/  For a FAQ that
should answer any questions about gasoline.

4.12 Are brands different?

Yes. The above specifications are intended to ensure minimal quality
standards are maintained, however as well as the fuel hydrocarbons, the
manufacturers add their own special ingredients to provide additional
benefits. A quality gasoline additive package would include:-
* octane-enhancing additives ( improve octane ratings )
* anti-oxidants ( inhibit gum formation, improve stability )
* metal deactivators ( inhibit gum formation, improve stability )
* deposit modifiers ( reduce deposits, spark-plug fouling and
 preignition )
* surfactants ( prevent icing, improve vaporization, inhibit deposits,
 reduce NOx emissions )
* freezing point depressants ( prevent icing )
* corrosion inhibitors ( prevent gasoline corroding storage tanks )
* dyes ( product colour for safety or regulatory purposes ).

During the 1980s significant problems with deposits accumulating on
intake
valve surfaces occurred as new fuel injection systems were introduced.
These intake valve deposits (IVD) were different than the injector
deposits,
in part because the valve can reach 300C. Engine design changes that
prevent
deposits usually consist of ensuring the valve is flushed with liquid
gasoline, and provision of adequate valve rotation. Gasoline factors
that
cause deposits are the presence of alcohols or olefins [46]. Gasoline
manufacturers now routinely use additives that prevent IVD and also
maintain
the cleanliness of injectors. These usually include a surfactant and
light
oil to maintain the wetting of important surfaces. Intake valve deposits
have
also been shown to have significant adverse effects on emissions [47],
and
deposit control additives will be required to both reduce emissions and
provide clean engine operation [48]. A slightly more detailed
description
of additives is provided in Section 9.1.

Texaco demonstrated that a well-formulated package could improve fuel
economy, reduce NOx emissions, and restore engine performance because,
as
well as the traditional liquid-phase deposit removal, some additives can
work in the vapor phase to remove existing engine deposits without
adversely
affecting performance ( as happens when water is poured into a running
engine
to remove carbon deposits :-) )[49]. Chevron have also published data on
the
effectiveness of their additives [50], and successfully litigated to get
Texaco to modify some of their claims [51]. Most suppliers of quality
gasolines will formulate similar additives into their products, and
cheaper
product lines are less likely to have such additives added. As different
brands of gasoline use different additives and oxygenates, it is
probable
that important fuel parameters, such as octane distribution, are
slightly
different, even though the pump octane ratings are the same.

So, if you know your car is well-tuned, and in good condition, but the
drivability is pathetic on the correct octane, try another brand.
Remember
that the composition will change with the season, so if you lose
drivability, try yet another brand. As various Clean Air Act changes are
introduced over the next few years, gasoline will continue to change.

Signature

Steve

> Trey,
> This is a loaded question. First, there are no detergents in fuel. Second,
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> > time, and get 12 MPG, it adds up VERY fast. Thats an extra $200 a year Im
> > just blowing out the tailpipe of the truck.
rudyxhiebert@yahoo.com - 05 Jun 2005 04:20 GMT
I have Octane Boost and am inclined to experiment w/ it. It will
increase octane as much as seven points. Recommended for off road and
racing. Any thoughts or feedback on that?
Trey - 05 Jun 2005 08:11 GMT
>I have Octane Boost and am inclined to experiment w/ it. It will
> increase octane as much as seven points. Recommended for off road and
> racing. Any thoughts or feedback on that?

What kind of timing, compression, cams, or boost are you running, and on
what engine? Bone stock Dodge Ram, you will be disapointed...
Coasty - 05 Jun 2005 11:15 GMT
More info on Octane
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gasoline3.htm
Signature

Coasty
Semper Paratus
(Always Ready)

> Ok folks I am sure this one has been beaten into the ground many times.
> However, I am now on a quest. Sort of.  A friend of mine had an
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> time, and get 12 MPG, it adds up VERY fast. Thats an extra $200 a year Im
> just blowing out the tailpipe of the truck.
 
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