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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / June 2005ping GG tranny questions
gary, ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total loaded weight of trailer) back to billings. 2000 miles is a looong way in 3rd gear. is there _anything_ i can do on my '01.5 cummins that will enable me to safely use overdrive? would a fan blown external cooler do the trick? anything i could do on my '04.5 cummins? ......this is why my '02 dually (purchase pending) will have a 6 speed. the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. thanks,  SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com Do you really think traveling at 85 MPH with over 9000 pounds behind you is a good idea? SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > gary, > ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total loaded [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. > thanks, > Do you really think traveling at 85 MPH with over 9000 pounds behind you > is > a good idea? just a guess, youve never been to montana? SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com That would be correct but a blowout on a front tire at that speed with a trailer that heavy gets you just as dead, regardless of the landscape. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > Do you really think traveling at 85 MPH with over 9000 pounds behind you > > is > > a good idea? > > just a guess, youve never been to montana? > That would be correct but a blowout on a front tire at that speed with a > trailer that heavy gets you just as dead, regardless of the landscape. as would a blowout at 70, or 60 for that matter. the same goes for the cummins too.....it doesnt like 70 in 3rd either so the same applies. SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com > gary, > ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. > thanks, Your six speed CTD won't like 85 in fifth either:) Al 2004 600 CTD, six speed, 4X4. > Your six speed CTD won't like 85 in fifth either:) thanks to edge the power wont be the limiting factor. i just dont wanna kill a tranny over it. SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com Nate, lemme stick my .02 in here. If I had to choose, I'd pull it with the 04, since its got the better HP, but also because its got the 48RE, which is a couple of steps better than the 47RE in the 01. In particular, the 48 has more clutches in the OD unit, and a stronger planetary set. As to your cooler, I'd definitely run an aux. cooler, mounted as far from the A/C condenser as possible. At 80MPH, a fan is probably useless, since I doubt any electric fan could move air that fast. Not sure how much effect, or if its compatible with the Cummins engine management, but I'd also put a cooler T'stat in there, which will lower the coolant temp that flows over the radiator tank mounted cooler, if so equipped. I'd also install a trans temp guage, just to monitor the temp. Better to stop and relax over dinner than be stopped in the middle of nowhere and wonder if you will get dinner. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. > gary, > ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. > thanks, > Nate, lemme stick my .02 in here. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. >> thanks, Amen on the trans temp gauge, but your '04 CTD w/48RE should be just fine, thank you, towing in OD as long as the tranny doesn't hunt often. I tow about that with my '03 all the time and the trans temp barely rises over 140 degrees. Your 01' should be OK too. Mike > Your 01' should be OK too. Forgot to mention that my '00 does very well with 7000lbs in OD, and I live in the hills of PA. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> Nate, lemme stick my .02 in here. >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Mike > Your 01' should be OK too. in overdrive? what is it people are doing that gave the 47re such a bad name? SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com >> Your 01' should be OK too. > >in overdrive? what is it people are doing that gave the 47re such a bad >name? Maybe it's the "aww, sh.t" factor - you know, the one that says "One Aww sh.t is louder than a bunch of attaboys"? I cruise at about 65mph with my 12,000 lb fiver in overdrive until it starts hunting for a lower gear - and that takes a lot more than just the grade going up an overpass on the freeway. I have the fluids and filters on the tranny changed in accordance with the owner's manual recommendations and specifically ask the mechanic (not the service writer or manager) if he found anything "unusual, like shavings or chips" when he pulled the pan. Nothing bad has happened so far. Greg '98 3500 QC 4x2 Cummins ISB, Auto, 3.54:1, Driftwood with Leather and all the heavy duty options. '89 Nu-Wa Champagne Edition, 34 foot Fifth Wheel. > I cruise at about 65mph with my 12,000 lb fiver in overdrive youre pulling 12k on the 3.54 gears? how does it do? any mountain driving? SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com >> I cruise at about 65mph with my 12,000 lb fiver in overdrive > >youre pulling 12k on the 3.54 gears? how does it do? any mountain driving? I bought the trailer in Benson, AZ right after I got the truck and towed it back home to Norfolk. Lowest speed I saw was about 40 mph north/east bound on the big hill going north out of Las Cruces, NM towards Alamogordo. Ditto for going westbound over Black's Mountain in North Carolina on I-40(?). Caught the wife napping in Oklahoma, so I opened it up and it runs real nice at 85 with the trailer on the flats. Most of the stuff since then has been up and down the east coast with a few trips to Tennessee. I get around 13-13.5 towing at 65 mph. I'm happy with the combo, but intend to trade off both when I retire in a couple years and start my retirement with two fresh vehicles for full-timing. Greg '98 3500 QC 4x2 Cummins ISB, Auto, 3.54:1, Driftwood with Leather and all the heavy duty options. '89 Nu-Wa Champagne Edition, 34 foot Fifth Wheel. Driving it like its a sports car does that. The Cummins Dodge is equipment, not a common commuter. Drive it like it cannot fail, and it will. Drive it with respect, like it can damage itself and anything in its path, and it'll perform for a lifetime. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> Your 01' should be OK too. > > in overdrive? what is it people are doing that gave the 47re such a bad > name? > If I had to choose, I'd pull it with the 04, since its got the better HP, > but also because its got the 48RE, which is a couple of steps better than > the 47RE in the 01. In particular, the 48 has more clutches in the OD > unit, and a stronger planetary set. agreed. if possible however, id like to be able to do it with either truck, _if_ gg can come up with something where it could be done without blowing a tranny. > As to your cooler, I'd definitely run an aux. cooler, mounted as far from > the A/C condenser as possible. At 80MPH, a fan is probably useless, since > I doubt any electric fan could move air that fast. i looked at a couple different setups and they were all mounted under the truck bed with the fan blowing up. these were on a couple street legal ford racing trucks with diesels. i was hoping this would also work for my application. SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com > gary, > ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total > loaded weight of trailer) back to billings. 2000 miles is a looong way in > 3rd gear. is there _anything_ i can do on my '01.5 cummins that will > enable me to safely use overdrive? would a fan blown external cooler do > the trick? anything i could do on my '04.5 cummins? Nate, I know Gary is a advocate for aux coolers and stuff, but with the Cummins I doubt you will have the need. I've moved a plow over a hundred miles in 85 degree weather and the temp and trans did just fine. One thing that DC didn't screw up was the cooling on the Cummins, gas engines may be a different story. Roy >> gary, >> ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Roy I should add that the plow was on the front of the truck, not in the bed. Roy Nate; The problem is lubrication to the OD section The OD kinda 'sucks hind tit' in that unit..............it gets the leftovers from cooler flow, after the pressure regulator sends fluid to control and clutch pack circuits, plus the cooler flow is HOT fluid, in spite of the cooler now, your truck SHOULD have a very good cooler alongside the AC condenser on the driver's side, its as good as any aftermarket, plus it is situated for good air-flow, but still, that's a LONG way to tow in OD but no, I would keep it in 3rd, since then the netire OD gear-set rotates as a locked unit...........the only place I would try OD (and it's your call) would be across IL, IN, IA and eastern SD (or ND if you go that route), as soon as you hit hills or even 'rolling terrain', get back in 3rd hey, if you're worried about taking extra time, the spare bedroom is available, stop by, we're 120 miles south of I-80 and then you can catch I-72 east to contunue east; or take I-72 to here, then head up to the Quad Cites and I-80 going west Gary > gary, > ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total loaded [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. > thanks, >Nate; > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Gary i appreciate your answer gary. the "to tow in overdrive" question is probably the biggest single debate on tdr (almost like our k&n :) ). at my local dealer, at one in vegas, at one in pahrump, and at two others in big cities out here in the west i spoke to the tranny guy about this. all of them sufggested that i tow with overdrive locked out. they all said the only thing i'd lose is a little mileage that i couldn't hurt the engine. they all felt that overdrive in either the 47re or the 48re won't hold up to towing. they all felt tha the 48re was a significant improvement over the 47re, but not necessarily in the overdrive area. the owner of dtt (tranny specialistics for diesels in washington) also agreed. so, i tow with overdrive locked out. but only due to what i have been told, i am not a tranny tech or mechanically inclined in that area so i rely on the advise of others. i still read a lot of threads on tdr from guys with 47re's and 48re's that have towed big trailers with overdrive on for thousands of miles without any apparent problems at all though, so the debate goes on. >> gary, >> ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. >> thanks, > >Nate; > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > that have towed big trailers with overdrive on for thousands of miles > without any apparent problems at all though, so the debate goes on. well, as I said, it's a lube issue consider this: the Cummins has low-end torque out the wazoo that means it will lug down before it shifts out of OD; my expereince with this unit is that it takes a sharp jab on the pedal to force a kick-down, if you gradually apply pressure, you can have the pedal to the floor and still not shift down now, consider the factors here: 1) bogged down, if the converter unlocks, that means gobs of heat, even if it doesn't unlock, the factors below come into play 2) pedal to the floor, pressures to clutch packs to the max, less flow to converter 3) lower ground speed, less air flow thru cooler 4) lugging engine, radiator temp is up (cooler flow is first thru air cooler, then thru radiator cooler, at least on the ones I've seen) 5) lower engine speed means lower pump output, less overall flow now, one or two of these factors won't do in the OD, but add 'em all up and you have an OD section that is being lubed by an insufficient flow of very hot fluid, under extreme strain as the engine speed drops and individual pulses of power become more pronounced, and the reuslts cannot be good. G Quick question Gary and not to dispute your points, more for my education. Under full throttle and as slower speeds or RPM's, wouldn't the computer force both an unlock of the converter and a shift out of overdrive? SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > >Nate; > > > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > G the 46/47/48 RE uses an electronically-controlled hydraulic 'governor' (shift control) in the first three gears and electronics for 4th and OD it's a hybrid system that seems to me to have too much 'hysterysis' (lag between input sugnal and output switching), for lack of a better word if you are in 4th and gradually apply full throttle, it will not kick down until about 30 mph you have to drive one, loaded down, to get the full feel of what it does and doesn't do I've tried messing with governor pressures vs throttle pressure to get an earlier k/d, just won't happen the Transgo kit has a resistor that is added to the governor pressure sensor to get it to 'lag' the GP solenoid a bit, which helps, but not enough IMO > Quick question Gary and not to dispute your points, more for my education. > Under full throttle and as slower speeds or RPM's, wouldn't the computer [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > > > > G No, it would not. Unloaded, and with some light loading, my truck is able to climb hills without a thought at 1500RPM in OD. When I discovered this, I started manually killing OD. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. > Quick question Gary and not to dispute your points, more for my education. > Under full throttle and as slower speeds or RPM's, wouldn't the computer [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] >> >> G > No, it would not. Unloaded, and with some light loading, my truck is able > to climb hills without a thought at 1500RPM in OD. When I discovered this, > I started manually killing OD. if youre unloaded or loaded lightly, why the concern? SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com Cummins lists lugging as more pedal but not more RPM. Since the truck weighs in at 7000+lbs, going up a hill in OD is not only pulling the RPM down, its creating more EGT, more strain, etc. All of that is unnecessary, since I have a direct ratio, so why not use it, and avoid all bad effects? My MPG rarely suffers with such a move. With no adverse effect, and a bunch of good things happening, its not worth the constant bragging rights. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> No, it would not. Unloaded, and with some light loading, my truck is able >> to climb hills without a thought at 1500RPM in OD. When I discovered >> this, I started manually killing OD. > > if youre unloaded or loaded lightly, why the concern? > they all felt that overdrive in either the > 47re or the 48re won't hold up to towing. at what point (assuming flat ground)? i mean, towing a 400 pound atv on a 400 pound trailer obviously wouldnt hurt a toyota tranny in overdrive, much less one built for the cummins. is 1000 pounds the shift point (taking it out of overdrive)? 2000? 5000? > the debate goes on. ......sure wish i had gotten the 6 speed now. had i forseen just how much towing i would be doing (getting ready to purchase a slide in camper and will be pulling the 7x18 loaded with the toys every chance i get) i wouldnt have got the automatic in the .04.5. SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com > ......sure wish i had gotten the 6 speed now. had i forseen just how much > towing i would be doing (getting ready to purchase a slide in camper and > will be pulling the 7x18 loaded with the toys every chance i get) i > wouldnt have got the automatic in the .04.5. Nate, the 48RE isn't the concern here... the concern is the 47RE in your '01. The 48RE has better fluid flow to the OD unit, more clutches in the OD pack, and MANY more clutches in the direct pack. Put a temp gauge in it, don't let it go over 180-190°F or so, and don't lug it in OD (below 1500-1600RPMs), just like you wouldn't do with a manual. Dry your eyes, blow your nose, and cheer up... your automatic will handle your towing needs just fine... yep, even in the mighty mountains of the great northwest :) > Nate, the 48RE isn't the concern here... the concern is the 47RE in your > '01. The 48RE has better fluid flow to the OD unit, more clutches in the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > your towing needs just fine... yep, even in the mighty mountains of the > great northwest :) sweet. do you feel that an automatic would also do "fine" in the '02 dually im searching for? SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com > sweet. do you feel that an automatic would also do "fine" in the '02 > dually im searching for? ....and just out of curiosity, how difficult would it be to retrofit a 48re into an '02? SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com > sweet. do you feel that an automatic would also do "fine" in the '02 > dually im searching for? I'm a little less optimistic with the 47RE towing >8,000lbs. in OD, unless it's on flat ground - just because of the issues with the OD unit we've talked about previously. As for retro-fitting a 48RE, it's not that difficult at all. Physically, they're identical. Electrically, I'm pretty sure the valve body connector and underlying electronics are the same. The only thing you'd have to work on would be adapting the wiring from the 47RE's park/neutral switch to the 48RE's transmission range sensor. Fortunately, the TRS has a separate output that mimics the P/N switch behavior, so that should just be a matter of obtaining the proper connector and splicing a wire. If you can get a good-condition 48RE for cheap, then that would be the way to go. Otherwise, I'd just look at having the 47RE upgraded by a good transmission shop - one that's familiar with the Mopar trannies, and who can address the shortcomings when it comes to towing heavy. Remember that most of the heat comes from the torque converter, and until very recently ('05 and up), Dodge still had a very anti-tow-friendly lockup strategy, and a barely adequate converter to boot. I can tell you that my beefed-up 48RE, with a better torque converter and electronic controller for improved lock-up, has pulled a 10K load effortlessly, up several 4-5% grades (one about 2 miles - the other about 6 miles), and I never saw over 160°F on the temp gauge - that was only when I hammered it from a stop to "see what she'd do", and the converter was slipping until 3rd gear. Any other time, and the needle never came off the 140°F peg. > Otherwise, I'd just look at having the 47RE upgraded by a good > transmission shop can the 47re be upgraded to the same durability as the 48re? > until very recently ('05 and up), Dodge still had a very anti-tow-friendly > lockup strategy, and a barely adequate converter to boot. does this include the '04.5? SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com >> Otherwise, I'd just look at having the 47RE upgraded by a good >> transmission shop > > can the 47re be upgraded to the same durability as the 48re? Nate, these folks build as close to bullet proof as you can get. www.dieseltrans.com Roy > Nate, these folks build as close to bullet proof as you can get. > www.dieseltrans.com And, of course, the obligatory counter-point to that: http://www.atsdiesel.com >> Nate, these folks build as close to bullet proof as you can get. >> www.dieseltrans.com > > And, of course, the obligatory counter-point to that: > http://www.atsdiesel.com Certainly, you can only recommend what you have had good fortune with. My DTT was fantastic, never had a ats. Roy >> they all felt that overdrive in either the >> 47re or the 48re won't hold up to towing. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >less one built for the cummins. is 1000 pounds the shift point (taking it >out of overdrive)? 2000? 5000? Nate.. to me (as one who's been wanting a ctd for years) the question would be "IS the transmission built for the Cummins?"... Or, it is a standard transmission that is the best that they have for the Cummins.. Sort of off topic.. we tow with a 5.9 gasser and our TT is only about 6,000 pounds or so, but we are very rarely in OD... 2 reasons for this: Unless we're on flat ground and at pretty good speed, (65+), it takes a lot more pedal pressure to maintain speed that it does in OD.. my guess is that more pedal pressure means less MPG, and more heat generated.. I sort of think of it like I would a 5 speed manual.. you can run it all day in 4th without hurting it, but sometimes being in 5th CAN hurt it.. We've played around with OD on trips and it seems like we get the same 8-9 MPG either way, so I'd rather be driving with OD locked out and not having to worry about the tranny.. YMMV mac Please remove splinters before emailing > as one who's been wanting a ctd for years hey, i can hook you up. http://UtilityOffRoad.com/dodge :-) > We've played around with OD on trips and it seems like we get the same 8-9 > MPG > either way i wasnt real concerened about mileage, i just didnt wanna wind up a diesel like that, and i didnt want to limit myself to 60 mph either. SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com > i wasnt real concerened about mileage, i just didnt wanna wind up a diesel > like that, and i didnt want to limit myself to 60 mph either. So long as you don't lug it, and don't hit the rev limiter, it'll be just fine. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> as one who's been wanting a ctd for years > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > i wasnt real concerened about mileage, i just didnt wanna wind up a diesel > like that, and i didnt want to limit myself to 60 mph either. > So long as you don't lug it, and don't hit the rev limiter, it'll be just > fine. assuming youre talking about both the 48re and the 47re, SWEET! SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com I'm talking about the Cummins, the trannies will hold up to 6000 RPM no problem. Drive smart, and you'll be fine. Downshift when ya would if it was a stick, and the ECM hasn't done it yet. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> So long as you don't lug it, and don't hit the rev limiter, it'll be just >> fine. > > assuming youre talking about both the 48re and the 47re, SWEET! >> as one who's been wanting a ctd for years > >hey, i can hook you up. http://UtilityOffRoad.com/dodge :-) too late... we bought a couple of lots in Baja instead of a ctd and a bigger trailer.. >> We've played around with OD on trips and it seems like we get the same 8-9 >> MPG >> either way > >i wasnt real concerened about mileage, i just didnt wanna wind up a diesel >like that, and i didnt want to limit myself to 60 mph either. Again, I have little ctd experience, but since OD is over drive, are you really winding it up that much? Also, my original point (a few days ago) was that if you ARE winding it up high in 3rd, then OD should be ok.. just lock it out if the rpm's drop.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing > I would keep it in 3rd ouch. i just hate winding my cummins (either one) that tight. i dont like getting anywhere near redline. > the only place I would try OD (and it's your call) > would be across IL, IN, IA and eastern SD (or ND if you go that route), as > soon as you hit hills or even 'rolling terrain', get back in 3rd cool, i can handle that. does it hurt to run in o/d so long as the tranny isnt hunting? > hey, if you're worried about taking extra time, the spare bedroom is > available sweet, will have to get back to you when i know a little more about what im doing. SignatureNathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com > gary, > ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. > thanks, I've got an 05 dually. I pull my 13000 pound 5th wheeler in over drive, with the cruise control on at about 80 MPH on the open road. Toad it all the way from Churchville NY to Dallas and it only downshifted on the steepest of hills and quickly made the speed up and upshifted to overdrive again. SignatureMoParMaN---Remove Clothes To Reply! --SCUD Coordinates 32.61204 North: 96.92993 West-- > I've got an 05 dually. I pull my 13000 pound 5th wheeler in over drive 4.10's or 3.73's? >gary, >ill soon be travelling over 2000 miles to tow over 9000 pounds (total loaded [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the cummins doesnt like 85mph in 3rd gear. >thanks, IMHO, from my non-deisel towing, if you can do 85 mph, you can leave it in OD... now, at 60, I'd lock it out unless you were on flat ground and it wasn't taking a lot of throttle to maintain speed.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
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