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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / July 200597 2500 4.10 auto transmission
Driving down the highway today at about 70mph, felt a bump, and my tranny came out of OD. Now it appears I have no 1st gear,and no OD. Ideas? Do you have 2nd and 3rd? If so, suspect problems with the front band, servo, VB, governor or governor circuit. Check the truck for codes. If you find one, it should be for the governor. After that, you'll have to pull the pan, check the front band for proper position, as well as the front servo piston for proper orientation in the bore. After that is checking the VB and the governor for valve malfunction.  SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. > Driving down the highway today at about 70mph, felt a bump, and my > tranny came out of OD. Now it appears I have no 1st gear,and no OD. > Ideas? will it go into '1' if you put the selector in '1' ?\ > Driving down the highway today at about 70mph, felt a bump, and my > tranny came out of OD. Now it appears I have no 1st gear,and no OD. > Ideas? No, it won't shift into 1st at all. 2nd and 3rd seem to be fine. that's really strange...........the hydraulics of the manual lever should over-ride the governor hydraulics in '1' > No, it won't shift into 1st at all. 2nd and 3rd seem to be fine. Even when brand new, the lever would not allow a shift into "1" unless my speed was below approx. 15 mph. When I would shift into "1", the shift would not occur until my speed was slowed. > Driving down the highway today at about 70mph, felt a bump, and my > tranny came out of OD. Now it appears I have no 1st gear,and no OD. > Ideas? Sounds like the transmission has gone into the limp mode. > Sounds like the transmission has gone into the limp mode. 'limp mode' ?????? on a 518 ??????? HAHAHAHA >> Sounds like the transmission has gone into the limp mode. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > HAHAHAHA '97 is an RE. > >> Sounds like the transmission has gone into the limp mode. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > '97 is an RE. yes, and an 'RE' is hydraulically shifted, via a governor pressure solenoid and transducer for 1-2-3, and electrically enabled for 4th off the same governor pressure circuit, and electrically off of 3rd oil for L/U there is no 'limp mode on the A500 /518 /618 family >> >> Sounds like the transmission has gone into the limp mode. >> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > there is no 'limp mode on the A500 /518 /618 family Oh? Perhaps you haven't read Daimler-Chrysler literature regarding the situation (too busy looking at your image in the mirror). Below is a direct quote from DC TSB 21-04-00 referring to the '96-'99 46RE transmission: "The vehicle operator may experience slower than normal vehicle accelerations because the transmission may have temporarily entered its third gear "Limp-in" mode as a result of the DTC. The "Limp- In" mode may last until the vehicle owner cycles the ignition key. The technician may not detect a problem with the automatic transmission during a diagnostic test or test drive." The quotation marks surrounding "Limp-in" are DC's, not mine; making it rather obvious that the "A500 /518 /618 family" does indeed go into a limp mode under certain circumstances. Got a problem with that? Talk to DC. > Below is a direct quote from DC TSB 21-04-00 referring to the '96-'99 46RE > transmission: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > rather obvious that the "A500 /518 /618 family" does indeed go into a limp > mode under certain circumstances. Got a problem with that? Talk to DC. first off, a 97 2500 would have a 47RE if a V-8, and a 48RE if a V-10, so this TSB does not apply to the vehicle in question second, Mopar's use of quotation marks indicates that this is a non-factory-programmed event, kind of like windows 98 freezing up if it were a factory programed mode, Limp Mode would be called Limp Mode, not "limp-in" Just to put this whole issue to bed, I replaced the overdrive/lockup solenoid, the governor pressure switch,the governor pressure solenoid, and put in a valve body kit. All better now. Thanks. Just to put this whole issue to bed, I replaced the overdrive/lockup solenoid, the governor pressure switch,the governor pressure solenoid, and put in a valve body kit. All better now. Thanks. > first off, a 97 2500 would have a 47RE if a V-8, and a 48RE if a V-10, so > this TSB does not apply to the vehicle in question In '97, the 47RE was the biggest trans (48RE didn't come out until '03.5), and only went to the V10 and Cummins trucks. The 360 got the 46RE. >> Below is a direct quote from DC TSB 21-04-00 referring to the '96-'99 >> 46RE [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > first off, a 97 2500 would have a 47RE if a V-8, and a 48RE if a V-10, so > this TSB does not apply to the vehicle in question AU CONTRAIRE!! The TSB specifically refers to all RE's. Again, a direct quote from the TSB: "THIS INFORMATION APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A RE SERIES AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION BUILT BEFORE DECEMBER 18, 1998 (MDH 1218XX)" The original post didn't specify an engine size but only the diesel and V-10 had the 47RE in '97, the 48RE came along much later. > second, Mopar's use of quotation marks indicates that this is a > non-factory-programmed event, kind of like windows 98 freezing up If it automatically reverts to a certain gear when an error occurs it is a "factory-programmed event", just like Windows 98 flashing a blue screen. > if it were a factory programed mode, Limp Mode would be called Limp Mode, > not "limp-in" Picky, picky. I suppose it depends on the definition of limp. > >> Below is a direct quote from DC TSB 21-04-00 referring to the '96-'99 > >> 46RE [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Picky, picky. I suppose it depends on the definition of limp. > >> Below is a direct quote from DC TSB 21-04-00 referring to the '96-'99 > >> 46RE [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > "THIS INFORMATION APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A RE SERIES AUTOMATIC > TRANSMISSION BUILT BEFORE DECEMBER 18, 1998 (MDH 1218XX)" REALLY ? then why did you specifically say '46RE' originally ? > The original post didn't specify an engine size but only the diesel and V-10 > had the 47RE in '97, the 48RE came along much later. any 2500-series will have a 518, or 618 if later V-10 or Diesel > > second, Mopar's use of quotation marks indicates that this is a > > non-factory-programmed event, kind of like windows 98 freezing up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Picky, picky. I suppose it depends on the definition of limp. yes, it does and your interpretation of 'limp-in' is wrong >> >> Below is a direct quote from DC TSB 21-04-00 referring to the '96-'99 >> >> 46RE [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > then why did you specifically say '46RE' originally ? Irrelevant since you clearly stated that a transmission of the "A500, 518, 618" family could not enter such a mode regardless of what the mode is called. All of the RE series falls within that family. You're wrong, get over it. >> The original post didn't specify an engine size but only the diesel and > V-10 [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > and your interpretation of 'limp-in' is wrong Says you. I think the TSB's description of locking in 3rd gear clearly fits the classic definition of the limp mode. You're wrong, get over it. > Says you. I think the TSB's description of locking in 3rd gear clearly > fits the classic definition of the limp mode. You're wrong, get over it. FWIW, there is no limp home mode mentioned in any form in the '00 FSM description of operation of the 46/47RE SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >>> >> Below is a direct quote from DC TSB 21-04-00 referring to the '96-'99 >>> >> 46RE [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > Says you. I think the TSB's description of locking in 3rd gear clearly > fits the classic definition of the limp mode. You're wrong, get over it. > FWIW, there is no limp home mode mentioned in any form in the '00 FSM > description of operation of the 46/47RE Nor my '03... there is for the [5]45RFE, though. Still - why would it be mentioned in the TSB? What I want to know is... HOW exactly is it supposed to engage? What can be done electronically to prevent the application of 1st or 2nd gear? > Nor my '03... there is for the [5]45RFE, though. Still - why would it be > mentioned in the TSB? > > What I want to know is... HOW exactly is it supposed to engage? What can > be done electronically to prevent the application of 1st or 2nd gear? 1st: lock the shift lever in reverse and neutral only? 2nd: Same thing, as it needs the rear clutch (1st) to function. They could place a solenoid the VB and exhaust the feed to the rear clutch. Not too hard, but also knocks out all forward gears. Sorta kills the idea of limping home in 2nd and 3rd. The only solenoids in the RE transmissions were for OD, TCC and governor pressure. There are only four pressure curves, one for cold, one for hot, one for WOT, and one for low range. So, where's "limp home"? They don't mention it in my FSM. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> FWIW, there is no limp home mode mentioned in any form in the '00 FSM >> description of operation of the 46/47RE [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What I want to know is... HOW exactly is it supposed to engage? What can > be done electronically to prevent the application of 1st or 2nd gear? >> FWIW, there is no limp home mode mentioned in any form in the '00 FSM >> description of operation of the 46/47RE [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What I want to know is... HOW exactly is it supposed to engage? What can > be done electronically to prevent the application of 1st or 2nd gear? >> Says you. I think the TSB's description of locking in 3rd gear clearly >> fits the classic definition of the limp mode. You're wrong, get over it. > > FWIW, there is no limp home mode mentioned in any form in the '00 FSM > description of operation of the 46/47RE FWIW, the TSB only deals with transmissions built prior to December 18, 1998 which falls within the range of the original poster's unit. >>>> >> Below is a direct quote from DC TSB 21-04-00 referring to the >>>> >> '96-'99 [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >> Says you. I think the TSB's description of locking in 3rd gear clearly >> fits the classic definition of the limp mode. You're wrong, get over it. > FWIW, the TSB only deals with transmissions built prior to December 18, > 1998 which falls within the range of the original poster's unit. So you are saying, in effect, that they did away with "limp home" mode? SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> FWIW, the TSB only deals with transmissions built prior to December 18, >> 1998 which falls within the range of the original poster's unit. > > So you are saying, in effect, that they did away with "limp home" mode? I dunno, I can only quote the TSB. If you think about it for a minute you'll realize that the whole idea behind TSB's is to disseminate info not contained in the service manual. If the limp mode/limp-in mode were addressed in the FSM, there would be no need to rehash it in a TSB. > If you think about it for a minute you'll realize that the whole idea > behind TSB's is to disseminate info not contained in the service manual. > If the limp mode/limp-in mode were addressed in the FSM, there would be no > need to rehash it in a TSB. If you think for a moment after reading the FSM and the complete description of operation, you might also come to the conclusion that there is no limp home mode. This is because it specifically details what the PCM is capable of doing. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >>> FWIW, the TSB only deals with transmissions built prior to December 18, >>> 1998 which falls within the range of the original poster's unit. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If the limp mode/limp-in mode were addressed in the FSM, there would be no > need to rehash it in a TSB. > > If you think about it for a minute you'll realize that the whole idea > > behind TSB's is to disseminate info not contained in the service manual. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > home mode. This is because it specifically details what the PCM is capable > of doing. Perhaps because they choose not to name this condition in the FSM or maybe it is an unexpected condition that happens enough to be given a name. IF these things didn't happen, then there would be no need for any TSB's. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Perhaps because they choose not to name this condition in the FSM or maybe > it is an unexpected condition that happens enough to be given a name. IF > these things didn't happen, then there would be no need for any TSB's. The FSM is specific as to the operation of the trans and its solenoids. No "limp home" mode is described. If it is an "unexpected condition", then its not an operating mode of the PCM, but an unexpected condition. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> > If you think about it for a minute you'll realize that the whole idea >> > behind TSB's is to disseminate info not contained in the service [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > it is an unexpected condition that happens enough to be given a name. IF > these things didn't happen, then there would be no need for any TSB's. > > Perhaps because they choose not to name this condition in the FSM or maybe > > it is an unexpected condition that happens enough to be given a name. IF [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "limp home" mode is described. If it is an "unexpected condition", then its > not an operating mode of the PCM, but an unexpected condition. Isn't that the point of a TSB, Max, to talk about, explain, and define an unexpected condition? Perhaps this feature or behavior was not intended during the design of the system but that doesn't mean that it will not or cannot happen or that it will not later get a name if this unintended behavior is then shown to be consistent for a given set of conditions. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Isn't that the point of a TSB, Max, to talk about, explain, and define an > unexpected condition? Perhaps this feature or behavior was not intended > during the design of the system but that doesn't mean that it will not or > cannot happen or that it will not later get a name if this unintended > behavior is then shown to be consistent for a given set of conditions. If the condition is not expected, then it is not a "mode of operation", but an unexpected condition. Generally, technicians call "unexpected conditions" what they are, failures. In the specific case mentioned, the failure of the govenor pressure sensor, "limp home" is a nifty name for "the computer is confused and does not know what the governor pressure is". This is not a mode operation, but a lack of information. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> > Perhaps because they choose not to name this condition in the FSM or > maybe [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > cannot happen or that it will not later get a name if this unintended > behavior is then shown to be consistent for a given set of conditions. > > Isn't that the point of a TSB, Max, to talk about, explain, and define an > > unexpected condition? Perhaps this feature or behavior was not intended [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > confused and does not know what the governor pressure is". This is not a > mode operation, but a lack of information. plus, the OP stated that it would not go into '1' even if the manual lever was put in '1' this is one of those 'weird' failure modes, because the ML should over-ride gov pressure, unless the VSS was ALSO giving a squirrely reading, like telling the ECM that the vehicle was above 45 or so, at which point the GS would be wide-open and preventing the 1-2 shift valve from returning to the at-rest position > If the condition is not expected, then it is not a "mode of operation", > but an unexpected condition. Generally, technicians call "unexpected > conditions" what they are, failures. In the specific case mentioned, the > failure of the govenor pressure sensor, "limp home" is a nifty name for > "the computer is confused and does not know what the governor pressure > is". This is not a mode operation, but a lack of information. The difference between "mode" and "mode of operation" is verbal masturbation (typical Max), if the transmission is in a certain configuration it is in a mode. The fact that the mode is abnormal is the reason for the original post. The point is, the condition can exist, with or without all of the pseudo-technical jargon, and a condition in which a transmission reverts to single gear operation is, throughout the industry, commonly called the "limp mode" or the "limp-in mode" for the purist. The TSB is evidence that the mode is recognized and has been named, the fact that there is no mention of it in the FSM is irrelevant. > The difference between "mode" and "mode of operation" is verbal > masturbation (typical Max), if the transmission is in a certain > configuration it is in a mode. The fact that the mode is abnormal is the > reason for the original post. But the transmisison is NOT in a configuration for which it was programmed, thus it is not an operating mode. However, it HAS failed, in that it cannot read the governor pressure. Indeed, in the very same TSB you cite, it mentions that the failure may disappear by cycling the key. With regard to your "verbal masturbation," perhaps you feel that a failure of the front band is a "lack of second gear mode?" Or perhaps failure of the rear clutch is a "back this mother up all the way home" mode? I'll leave your choice of words "verbal masturbation" to you, asking only this rhetorical question: Are you really that flexible? > The point is, the condition can exist, with or without all of the > pseudo-technical jargon, and a condition in which a transmission reverts > to single gear operation is, throughout the industry, commonly called the > "limp mode" or the "limp-in mode" for the purist. Really? Then a failure of hard parts for say, 2nd and 3rd gears would be a "damn, its gonna be a long drive home" mode, rather than a front servo failure? I guess it was inevitable that we have Transmission PC speak. > The TSB is evidence that the mode is recognized and has been named, the > fact that there is no mention of it in the FSM is irrelevant. I suppose its irrelevant that the TSB mentions how the failure can be fixed rather simply? SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> If the condition is not expected, then it is not a "mode of operation", >> but an unexpected condition. Generally, technicians call "unexpected [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the mode is recognized and has been named, the fact that there is no > mention of it in the FSM is irrelevant. >> The difference between "mode" and "mode of operation" is verbal >> masturbation (typical Max), if the transmission is in a certain [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But the transmisison is NOT in a configuration for which it was > programmed, thus it is not an operating mode. How do you know exactly what was programmed? Just because it isn't mentioned in the FSM doesn't mean it isn't programmed in. If the transmission has a combination of components properly applied at the command of the PCM so as to constitute a recognized gear, it is in a "mode" and if it will allow the vehicle to move forward it is in, by definition, an "operating mode". > However, it HAS failed, in that it cannot read the governor pressure. > Indeed, in the very same TSB you cite, it mentions that the failure may > disappear by cycling the key. And it might reappear after a restart, so what? If the computer repeatedly sends the transmission into a particular mode upon sensing a fault, it has been programmed to do so. > With regard to your "verbal masturbation," perhaps you feel that a failure > of the front band is a "lack of second gear mode?" Or perhaps failure of > the rear clutch is a "back this mother up all the way home" mode? Are those terms in common usage? If you enter the terms in google how many hits will you get? >> The TSB is evidence that the mode is recognized and has been named, the >> fact that there is no mention of it in the FSM is irrelevant. > > I suppose its irrelevant that the TSB mentions how the failure can be > fixed rather simply? Your point? I made no mention of ease of repair and see no correlation with the present "discussion". > The FSM is specific as to the operation of the trans and its solenoids. No > "limp home" mode is described. Exactly how many TSB's concerning the automatic transmission have been predicted in the FSM and given names? If the material was covered in the FSM there would be no need for a TSB to rehash it. I doubt if you'll find the term "broken camshaft" anywhere in a FSM, and nowhere will there be described a "mode of operation" that predictably leads to broken camshafts, but if there were a rash of such failures there would most likely be a TSB addressing it and the commonly used term "broken camshaft" would be used to describe the failure. . > Exactly how many TSB's concerning the automatic transmission have been > predicted in the FSM and given names? > If the material was covered in the FSM there would be no need for a TSB to > rehash it. While true, if it were actually a mode of operation, the FSM would cover it. > I doubt if you'll find the term "broken camshaft" anywhere in a FSM, and > nowhere will there be described a "mode of operation" that predictably > leads to broken camshafts, but if there were a rash of such failures there > would most likely be a TSB addressing it and the commonly used term > "broken camshaft" would be used to describe the failure. Problem is, you are referring to the PROBLEM as a mode of operation, not the mode of operation leading to the problem. Thus the reason why there are quotes around "limp in" in the TSB. Again, if it was not part of the design, its a failure, not a mode of operation. Is a flat tire a mode of operation? SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> The FSM is specific as to the operation of the trans and its solenoids. >> No "limp home" mode is described. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > . > Again, if it was not part of the design, its a failure, not a mode of > operation. > > Is a flat tire a mode of operation? Yada, yada, yada. The computer doesn't control the tires nor take action if one goes flat. Your analogies are lame. Pardon me if I don't put much stock in your interpretation of the FSM, the same interpretations that led to your "reset theory" in which the transmission pressure drops to zero at each shift and the transmission drops out of gear to "ease the strain on the gears". > Yada, yada, yada. The computer doesn't control the tires nor take action > if one goes flat. Your analogies are lame. As are your explanations as to why my analogies don't fit. Oh, wait, you didn't bother to explain, guess that "explains" that, eh? > Pardon me if I don't put much stock in your interpretation of the FSM, the > same interpretations that led to your "reset theory" in which the > transmission pressure drops to zero at each shift and the transmission > drops out of gear to "ease the strain on the gears". Well, you may not like it, but dropping the trans into two gear ratios at once is a bad thing, at least, so they tell me, not that I've ever seen any evidence of that (getting the sarcasm yet?). So I'm betting there was some though given to my theory when the trans was designed. Have a nice day John, been good to hear from you. Same old same old it appears. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> Again, if it was not part of the design, its a failure, not a mode of >> operation. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > transmission pressure drops to zero at each shift and the transmission > drops out of gear to "ease the strain on the gears". >> Yada, yada, yada. The computer doesn't control the tires nor take action >> if one goes flat. Your analogies are lame. > > As are your explanations as to why my analogies don't fit. Oh, wait, you > didn't bother to explain, guess that "explains" that, eh? The only simple fact that will emerge from this thread is that you, nor anyone else on this forum, knows exactly what is programmed into the PCM; if it is programmed to place the transmission in a certain mode when a certain failure occurs, the transmission is in an "operating mode" regardless of whether it's mentioned in the FSM. >> Pardon me if I don't put much stock in your interpretation of the FSM, >> the same interpretations that led to your "reset theory" in which the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > once is a bad thing, at least, so they tell me, not that I've ever seen > any evidence of that (getting the sarcasm yet?). Huh? >So I'm betting there was some though given to my theory when the trans was >designe. Not even a remote possibility since the designers of the TF used REAL hydraulic laws and theory and they could easily cite a source of that knowledge. So far the only offer of proof of your theories has been "It's so 'cause I say so". If you were so confident of your theories you'd cite credible sources of your "hydraulic laws" as I have challenged you to do on numerous occasions. > Have a nice day John, been good to hear from you. Same old same old it > appears. Yea, same old status in Maxworld where bullshit reigns. |
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