Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / September 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Better milage while using premium fuel...

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
MWarren - 31 Aug 2005 01:19 GMT
2001 1500, 5.2L

Not mine, but curious if you're burning premium fuel all the time anyway,
would it be beneficial to install a chip or other modification designed for
premium fuel?  I don't know that much about perf chips but from my
understanding they are designed to get the most out of premium fuel... but
will it on an '01.  Any advice appreciated.. It seems that opinions on these
things vary widely.

Matt
Mike Simmons - 31 Aug 2005 02:14 GMT
Premium fuel does nothing, chip or no chip to improve fuel economy.

Mike

> 2001 1500, 5.2L
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Matt
SnoMan - 31 Aug 2005 23:41 GMT
>Premium fuel does nothing, chip or no chip to improve fuel economy.
>
>Mike

A non believer. I have been using premium for a many years in my V8
and the only one I use 87 in is a old carbed AMC360 with 8 to 1
compression in a J20 Jeep truck. Everything else is 89 or better.
(personally I think that 87 should be taken off the market because it
is more trouble than it is worth and a real hidden performance killer
on a hot day when your ECM has to retard the spark to control fuel
knock). I have 89 4x4 burb that I bought new and when I ran it on 87
for first few thousand miles it was gutless in warm weather and prone
to ping (even with ECM retarding spark some)  I switched over the
premium and reset base timing at 8 BTDC and the difference was night
and day and been running it that way since. I can get a honest 19 MPG
on hiway at 65mph with A/C on and that is on a 560 plus mile trip and
one tank of fuel (40 gallon tank). On 87 the best it ever did was a
little over 16mpg with A/C off on one trip on flat lands. It is very
perky to drive and runs like a champ. But there are those that think
they know more than automotive engineers and engine designers and that
87 is the fuel to use. We even use 89 or better in my wifes 4 banger
2000 Cherokee in summer as it will get in the low 20’s around town
with A/C running on 93 (23.5 last tank) and the best it will do on 87
is about 20 or so in same usage and it runs noticably smoother too on
93 than 87.
Tom Lawrence - 01 Sep 2005 00:23 GMT
> on a hot day when your ECM has to retard the spark to control fuel
> knock).

You do understand your V8 (assuming you're driving a Dodge truck, of course)
has no knock sensor, and therefore no ability to retard timing, and
therefore, as Mike says, premium fuel offers NO benefit over mid-grade
gasoline.  And since the OP has a 5.2L V8, Mike's statement is 100% correct.

> they know more than automotive engineers and engine designers and that
> 87 is the fuel to use.

You mean like the engineers who wrote the owner's manual that states the
vehicle was designed to run on 87 octane fuel?
Trey - 01 Sep 2005 21:01 GMT
>> on a hot day when your ECM has to retard the spark to control fuel
>> knock).
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> You mean like the engineers who wrote the owner's manual that states the
> vehicle was designed to run on 87 octane fuel?

I ran 91 in my Dakota 5.2 for a while... After getting the cat replaced, I
stuck with 87 and have not had any problems since.
SnoMan - 02 Sep 2005 06:40 GMT
>You do understand your V8 (assuming you’re driving a Dodge
>truck, of course) has no knock sensor, and therefore no ability to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>states the
>vehicle was designed to run on 87 octane fuel?

It is not 100% correct and the only reason it says 87 in manual
(minimum too) is because it is a sales death sentence to have 89 in
manual not because it is best fuel. Youdo not that when they run EPA
MPG tests that they have long used 93, not 87 when testing because
tests do not require the use of 87 octane fuel. (they can do it
because manuals say 87 minimum, not 87 only)
.boB - 31 Aug 2005 02:28 GMT
> 2001 1500, 5.2L
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Matt

   Why are you burning premium all the time now?

Signature

.boB
1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged!
2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92
1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver
1965 FFR Cobra - Finally on the Road!

BDK - 31 Aug 2005 02:33 GMT
> > 2001 1500, 5.2L
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> >
>     Why are you burning premium all the time now?

I would imagine to keep the normally pinging 318 or 360 from sounding
like it's got a bag of ball bearings in it.

BDK
.boB - 31 Aug 2005 14:19 GMT
>>>2001 1500, 5.2L
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> BDK
     Well, I run mid grade in mine, but only because I used a Hypertech programmer.
 Prior to that I used the cheap stuff without a problem.

Signature

.boB
1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged!
2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92
1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver
1965 FFR Cobra - Finally on the Road!

MWarren - 31 Aug 2005 15:57 GMT
> >>>2001 1500, 5.2L
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> >>
> >>    Why are you burning premium all the time now?

The truck belongs to my sister, who will not run cheaper gas in it, despite
my reasoning with her that all she is doing is spending more money.  I know
that in certain applications, I believe older vehicles (OBDI), that chips
and such may help fuel economy when using premium gas... didn't know if this
was the case with late model trucks, or older ones for that matter.  Thanks

Matt
Steve W. - 31 Aug 2005 16:26 GMT
6.13 Can higher octane fuels give me more power?

On modern engines with sophisticated engine management systems, the
engine
can operate efficiently on fuels of a wider range of octane rating, but
there
remains an optimum octane for the engine under specific driving
conditions.
Older cars without such systems are more restricted in their choice of
fuel,
as the engine can not automatically adjust to accommodate lower octane
fuel.
Because knock is so destructive, owners of older cars must use fuel that
will
not knock under the most demanding conditions they encounter, and must
continue to use that fuel, even if they only occasionally require the
octane.

If you are already using the proper octane fuel, you will not obtain
more
power from higher octane fuels. The engine will be already operating at
optimum settings, and a higher octane should have no effect on the
management
system. Your drivability and fuel economy will remain the same. The
higher
octane fuel costs more, so you are just throwing money away. If you are
already using a fuel with an octane rating slightly below the optimum,
then
using a higher octane fuel will cause the engine management system to
move to
the optimum settings, possibly resulting in both increased power and
improved
fuel economy. You may be able to change octanes between seasons ( reduce
octane in winter ) to obtain the most cost-effective fuel without loss
of
drivability.

Once you have identified the fuel that keeps the engine at optimum
settings,
there is no advantage in moving to an even higher octane fuel. The
manufacturer's recommendation is conservative, so you may be able to
carefully reduce the fuel octane. The penalty for getting it badly
wrong,
and not realizing that you have, could be expensive engine damage.

6.14 Does low octane fuel increase engine wear?

Not if you are meeting the octane requirement of the engine. If you are
not
meeting the octane requirement, the engine will rapidly suffer major
damage
due to knock. You must not use fuels that produce sustained audible
knock,
as engine damage will occur. If the octane is just sufficient, the
engine
management system will move settings to a less optimal position, and the
only major penalty will be increased costs due to poor fuel economy.
Whenever possible, engines should be operated at the optimum position
for
long-term reliability. Engine wear is mainly related to design,
manufacturing, maintenance and lubrication factors. Once the octane and
run-on requirements of the engine are satisfied, increased octane will
have
no beneficial effect on the engine. Run-on is the tendency of an engine
to
continue running after the ignition has been switched off, and is
discussed
in more detail in Section 8.2. The quality of gasoline, and the additive
package used, would be more likely to affect the rate of engine wear,
rather
than the octane rating.

6.16 What happens if I use the wrong octane fuel?

If you use a fuel with an octane rating below the requirement of the
engine,
the management system may move the engine settings into an area of less
efficient combustion, resulting in reduced power and reduced fuel
economy.
You will be losing both money and drivability. If you use a fuel with an
octane rating higher than what the engine can use, you are just wasting
money by paying for octane that you can not utilize. The additive
packages
are matched to the engines using the fuel, for example intake valve
deposit
control additive concentrations may be increased in the premium octane
grade.
If your vehicle does not have a knock sensor, then using a fuel with an
octane rating significantly below the octane requirement of the engine
means
that the little men with hammers will gleefully pummel your engine to
pieces.

You should initially be guided by the vehicle manufacturer's
recommendations,
however you can experiment, as the variations in vehicle tolerances can
mean that Octane Number Requirement for a given vehicle model can range
over 6 Octane Numbers. Caution should be used, and remember to
compensate
if the conditions change, such as carrying more people or driving in
different ambient conditions. You can often reduce the octane of the
fuel
you use in winter because the temperature decrease and possible humidity
changes may significantly reduce the octane requirement of the engine.

Use the octane that provides cost-effective drivability and performance,
using anything more is waste of money, and anything less could result in
an unscheduled, expensive visit to your mechanic.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/preamble.html

Signature

Steve Williams

> > >>>2001 1500, 5.2L
> > >>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Matt
.boB - 31 Aug 2005 19:34 GMT
 The truck belongs to my sister, who will not run cheaper gas in it, despite
> my reasoning with her that all she is doing is spending more money.  I know
> that in certain applications, I believe older vehicles (OBDI), that chips
> and such may help fuel economy when using premium gas... didn't know if this
> was the case with late model trucks, or older ones for that matter.  Thanks
>
> Matt

    I used a Hypertech programmer on mine.   I set it to the mid grade program, and
power and mileage actually went up.  Then I set it to the premium fuel programm.
Power went up just a little, but not much.  Fuel mileage went down.
    If she insists on using premium fuel anyway, might as well use the hypertech and
set it mid grade.  I gained about 2mpg on steady highway driving, and about 1mpg
around town.  The hypertech cost about $275-300.  I'll let you do the math on this one.

Signature

.boB
1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged!
2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92
1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver
1965 FFR Cobra - Finally on the Road!

BDK - 31 Aug 2005 16:20 GMT
> >>>2001 1500, 5.2L
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>       Well, I run mid grade in mine, but only because I used a Hypertech programmer.
>   Prior to that I used the cheap stuff without a problem.

Every 318 or 360 I ave ever owned (3 360's) or driven, over a dozen
pinged a little, or in the case of the 2000's and 2001's a lot. I didn't
buy a 2000 Ram, and that was one of the main reason.

BDK 2003 hemi Ram..
Big Al - 01 Sep 2005 16:59 GMT
> Every 318 or 360 I ave ever owned (3 360's) or driven, over a dozen
> pinged a little, or in the case of the 2000's and 2001's a lot. I didn't
> buy a 2000 Ram, and that was one of the main reason.
>
> BDK 2003 hemi Ram..

I've only owned two. A 90 and a 92. Both pinged until I put colder plugs in.
The 92 tows everything, and has most of its life. I run 87 in it and it
never pings. With the factory plugs it would ping under medium power output.
Give it more or less throttle and it would quit.

Al

92 W250, 360, 5 speed.
SnoMan - 05 Sep 2005 18:41 GMT
>> Every 318 or 360 I ave ever owned (3 360’s) or driven, over
>a dozen
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>92 W250, 360, 5 speed.

When you put in colder plug you are in effect retarding the spped of
spread of the flame after ignition and reducing engine efficency. You
may have think you cured it but your cure is costing you in fuel
consumption and give that with today price that better fuel can be
bought for a mere 2 or 3% more, way would you insist on still using
the lowest octane fuel you can buy when MPG gains can more than offset
the cost?
Big Al - 06 Sep 2005 07:30 GMT
>>> Every 318 or 360 I ave ever owned (3 360's) or driven, over
>>a dozen
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> the lowest octane fuel you can buy when MPG gains can more than offset
> the cost?

Where did this info come from? I'm interested in reading it.

Thanks,
Al
SnoMan - 06 Sep 2005 19:42 GMT
>>>> Every 318 or 360 I ave ever owned (3 360’s) or
>driven, over
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>Thanks,
>Al

Why do you think the ping stopped? By magic? "Ping" is caused by too
quick of flame speed spread (speed of spread is determined by pressure
and tempature of ignition source) Detenation is caused by the fuel
igniting  without a spark. By retarding the spark or using a colder
plug to can "retard" the peak pressure and rate of flame spread in
relation to piston cycle but when you "retard" combution process to
control ping you loose efficency. Man I took this stuff in college
when studing for a engineering degree in the late 70’s and the physics
of the processes in a IC engine have not changed any, only some of the
methods to control and feed it has.
nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca - 06 Sep 2005 23:05 GMT
>Why do you think the ping stopped? By magic? "Ping" is caused by too
>quick of flame speed spread (speed of spread is determined by pressure
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>of the processes in a IC engine have not changed any, only some of the
>methods to control and feed it has.

The heat range of a spark plug is an indicator of how hot the tip of
the plug can run A shorter thermal path to the shell means a colder
plug.It has NO effect on ignition timing.
A vehicle running under load CAN ping due to pre-ignition from a hot
plug. It is NOT common with factory spec plugs, but has been known to
happen. Changing to a colder range plug in this instance CAN eliminate
the ping - and at NO COST IN EFFICIENCY OR PERFORMANCE. Changing to a
higher octane fuel CAN eliminate the ping in the VERY odd instance -
but only if the higher octane fuel causes the hot plug to run cooler -
and this virtually only happens if the engine is on the "edge"
octane-wise to start with, and "mild detonation" is destroying the
boundary layer in the combustion chamber, transferring excessive
combustion heat to the plug. It is VERY difficult to differentiate
between pre-ignition and detonation, particularly since either one CAN
cause the other - and it's very difficult to tell which came first -
Kinda like the Chicken and the Egg.

If higher octane fuel does not reduce the "ping", strongly suspect
"pre-ignition" due to hot spots in the cyl.Things like too hot a plug,
carbon deposits glowing, or poorly fitting head gaskets "glowing" in
the cyl.(or overheatred valves - or even an overheated engine - which
CAN be caused by timing retarded too far trying to get rid of "ping"
or "knock" caused by running too low an octane rating of fuel for the
engine design.

First line of defence with a "pinging" engine is to run higher octane
fuel.
Big Al - 06 Sep 2005 23:13 GMT
>>>>> Every 318 or 360 I ave ever owned (3 360's) or
>>driven, over
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> of the processes in a IC engine have not changed any, only some of the
> methods to control and feed it has.

I thought the ping stopped because the tip of the plug was too hot. Can you
find an article about this? How do you tell ping from detonation? My trucks,
both of them, had a slight knock when pulling at about 1/4 output. My 92 is
a 5 speed and if it started doing it I could stuff it in overdrive and it
would quit. Whatever changing the plugs did stopped it. I've towed all over
the Southwest with no problems.

I appreciate your answer. I'm not trying to bust your chops, I just would
like to read about it. When I first asked about this I was told the plug
wires caused it and there was a TSB about some crossfire problems. Changed
the wires and the problem did not go away.

Did a Google search to see if I could find something revelevent:

http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/spark_plugs_catalog.html

http://www.dansmc.com/sparkplugs1.htm

http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html

http://www.boschusa.com/AutoParts/FAQs/SparkPlugs/

http://corvettefever.com/techarticles/153_0503w_plug/

http://www.mopar.com/m_maint_inspection_plugs_tune.html

http://www.centuryperformance.com/spark.asp

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/spkplghnbook.htm

And lots more. None of them mention what your saying??

Al
James Sedwick - 07 Sep 2005 01:03 GMT
Try a K&N Air filter...and a bottle of Lucas Fuel System Cleaner...your ping
may be due to improper fuel/air mixing...and carbon deposits on the
valves...hope this helps!
>>> Every 318 or 360 I ave ever owned (3 360's) or driven, over
>>a dozen
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> the lowest octane fuel you can buy when MPG gains can more than offset
> the cost?
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.