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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / October 2005tranny service advice
Hello... Couple questions for the transmission guru's around here. First off, My truck is a 2000 Ram CTD QuadCab Shortbed 3.55 gears all stock 61,000 miles. I plan on doing the 60k service which includes transmission fluid ,filter and adjust bands. The transmission seems fine...upshifts and downshifts great and no shudder or slippage. After talking to a couple shops ,seems like I have 2-3 alternatives to attack the transmission. 1) Drop pan and change filter , reinstall and add fluid.Could also have shop lower valve body to get even more fluid out. 2) Leave pan installed and use a flush machine to circulate new +4 oil into the tranny. 3)A local shop suggested using their flush machine to circulate,clean and refill using ATF+3 and a friction modifier (Lubeguard 63010) The shop owner has a Ram and said thats all he's ever done to his truck and its fine.He even went as far as to say Lubeguard gaurantees my transmission after the product is installed. My choice so far is number 2....seems like using brand new oil throughout the tranny would be best,even though there is a downside of not changing the screen. My concern with this approach also is the flush machine connections at the cooler. Is there any chance of damage to connections or possibly loosening something that could cause engine coolant to contaminate transmission oil? Next question...do my bands need attention even if it seems to shift fine? Sorry for the long post and also,thanks in advance for taking time for me. When was the last time fluid was changed? I hope by 60K you'd had it done at least once. I change mine every 15K because I tow and live in the desert. If your manual states ATF+4 then do not use ATF+3 with a modifier. No need to drop the pan and change the filter every time if fluid is changed frequently. I have the pan dropped every other time (30K). > Hello... Couple questions for the transmission guru's around here. > First off, My truck is a 2000 Ram CTD QuadCab Shortbed 3.55 gears all stock [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Next question...do my bands need attention even if it seems to shift fine? > Sorry for the long post and also,thanks in advance for taking time for me. I bought the truck used from my dad who had it since new.All of the reccomended service mileage points in the manual are filled out, so I think he had it done several times.A phone call could confirm that. When you change yours and don't drop the pan,do you use the flush type system?(guess thats the only way) > When was the last time fluid was changed? I hope by 60K you'd had it done > at least once. I change mine every 15K because I tow and live in the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> Sorry for the long post and also,thanks in advance for taking time for >> me. > I bought the truck used from my dad who had it since new.All of the > reccomended service mileage points in the manual are filled out, so I think > he had it done several times.A phone call could confirm that. > When you change yours and don't drop the pan,do you use the flush type > system?(guess thats the only way) Yes, I've had it flushed by the dealership with ATF+4. I have a 2001 Ram 5.9L. I also changed the pan to an aftermarket slight deeper one with a drain plug and temp sensor hole. If I tow long distance on a hot day I'll quickly drain the pan and at least get 5 quarts or so replaced. Easy to do with the drain plug. Own a 99 Quad CTD 2WD with around 75K and do a fair amount of towing 8K 5er. Try to change mine every 15K as suggested by the shop manual for heavy use. Have had both ATF3 and ATF4 put in by DC service techs at different dealerships in different parts of the country. Obviously two trains of thought going on here. What is the difference between the two types??...is one synthetic?? . Also...thanks for the tips Tom. Fred >> I bought the truck used from my dad who had it since new.All of the >> reccomended service mileage points in the manual are filled out, so I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > quickly drain the pan and at least get 5 quarts or so replaced. Easy to do > with the drain plug. Well, found out dad was slack and never had the tranny serviced.Sounds like I should drop the pan AND have it flushed out,then refilled with ATF+4. He's 78 years old, so Ill cut him a break. :) > Own a 99 Quad CTD 2WD with around 75K and do a fair amount of towing 8K > 5er. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> I'll quickly drain the pan and at least get 5 quarts or so replaced. Easy >> to do with the drain plug. That is because your dad is from a time when things were built to last, unlike the junk that we have to deal with and accept as normal today.  SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Well, found out dad was slack and never had the tranny serviced.Sounds like > I should drop the pan AND have it flushed out,then refilled with ATF+4. He's [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >> I'll quickly drain the pan and at least get 5 quarts or so replaced. Easy > >> to do with the drain plug. > That is because your dad is from a time when things were built to last, > unlike the junk that we have to deal with and accept as normal today. Some things were built better way back when but far from all. Back then 100K on a car was considered high mileage and about time for an engine rebuild. Today thats just getting broken in. > That is because your dad is from a time when things were built to last, > unlike the junk that we have to deal with and accept as normal today. Once again you prove yourself full of sh.t. The current A500/518/618/42/44/46/47/48R(H/E) are ALL the same design as the A727 and A904 transmissions. Pull apart a 727, and the guts from it will interchange with the guts from the three speed section of a 46 with no differences except the tailshaft. The only other differences in going to the 47/48 are numbers of clutch plates, so the drums have the snap ring groove cut in a different location. The real difference, which you have claimed to be smart enough to know, is the heat generated by the OD unit. This breaks down the ATF, which is what causes most of the failures associated with the OD transmissions. You've read that here many times, and its the only point on which you agree with TransSurgeon, yet you couldn't dig it up from your morass of knowledge. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. > That is because your dad is from a time when things were built to last, > unlike the junk that we have to deal with and accept as normal today. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Easy >> >> to do with the drain plug. > > That is because your dad is from a time when things were built to last, > > unlike the junk that we have to deal with and accept as normal today. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > numbers of clutch plates, so the drums have the snap ring groove cut in a > different location. Yep, instead of redesigning the unit to handle the new requirements they instead just stuff more sh.t into the same bag, IOW, turn a solid long life transmission into a high maintenance POS. > The real difference, which you have claimed to be smart enough to know, is > the heat generated by the OD unit. This breaks down the ATF, which is what > causes most of the failures associated with the OD transmissions. LOL, you just made my point again Maxi. Instead of redesigning the transmission to either better deal with the heat generated or make servicing it about as easy as an oil change, they just stuffed more parts into a difficult to service unit requiring the owner to go to the aftermarket to get parts that are basically a requirement for reliable, long term operation. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Yep, instead of redesigning the unit to handle the new requirements they > instead just stuff more sh.t into the same bag, IOW, turn a solid long > life > transmission into a high maintenance POS. Wrong again. 1975 Dodge FSM claims trans fluid and filter should be changed at 30k normallly, 20k for severe service. 2000 Dodge FSM calls for medium duty (schedule A) ATF change at 24k, heavy duty (schedule B) at 12k. Given the higher heat and loading of OD, the maintenance is not "high". Secondly, since the new transmissions are virtually the same, but with an OD ratio literally bolted on, it hardly diminishes the quality of engineering or the track record of the trans as a whole. > LOL, you just made my point again Maxi. Instead of redesigning the > transmission to either better deal with the heat generated or make [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > get parts that are basically a requirement for reliable, long term > operation. Wrong again. The trans now comes with a cooler for towing. Second, there are no more parts in the front section than there used to be. Third, its not difficult to service, certainly no more so than its predecessor, which wasn't difficult either. Parts from the aftermarket aren't required for long term operation. I have 62,000 on mine, and have changed the fluid twice. Its about due for another change. I'm not sure where you get your information, but you certainly don't have any real facts. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> > That is because your dad is from a time when things were built to last, >> > unlike the junk that we have to deal with and accept as normal today. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > get parts that are basically a requirement for reliable, long term > operation. > > Yep, instead of redesigning the unit to handle the new requirements they > > instead just stuff more sh.t into the same bag, IOW, turn a solid long [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wrong again. 1975 Dodge FSM claims trans fluid and filter should be changed > at 30k normallly, 20k for severe service. Really? for what type of vehicle? Either way, that is once every 2 to 3 years. > 2000 Dodge FSM calls for medium > duty (schedule A) ATF change at 24k, heavy duty (schedule B) at 12k. That is just about twice as often. > Given the higher heat and loading of OD, the maintenance is not "high". With the advances in materials and lubrication, it most certianly is, especially when you pretty much have to take the trans apart (remove the pan) to do it. > Secondly, since the new transmissions are virtually the same, but with an OD ratio > literally bolted on, it hardly diminishes the quality of engineering or the > track record of the trans as a whole. The trans is only as good as it's weakest point. We had this discussion with the DC 9 1/4 rears and you were wrong there too. While the design of the rear was unchanged, they decided to save a little money by using second rate bearings and that turned the rear into a POS as well, especially for those who had to cough up the big bucks to repair it. > > LOL, you just made my point again Maxi. Instead of redesigning the > > transmission to either better deal with the heat generated or make [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Wrong again. The trans now comes with a cooler for towing. Then why are so many people installing aftermarket coolers? > Second, there are no more parts in the front section than there used to be. Is that the same as no more parts inside of the case at all and if not, WTF is your point? The point is that NOTHING is different even though the internal parts run MUCH hotter than the non-OD units of the past. How about a deeper pan and a drain plug? > Third, its not difficult to service, certainly no more so than its predecessor, which > wasn't difficult either. Sure it is. Much harder than changing the oil and the frequency is damn near the same amount anymore, especially with the new oils comming out. > Parts from the aftermarket aren't required for long > term operation. I have 62,000 on mine, and have changed the fluid twice. Its > about due for another change. And for each change, you have to remove 4000 bolts to drop the pan (and it doesn't have a drain), remove and replace the filter while it continues to drip fluid on you, hope that the new gasket that comes with the kit is not damaged or folded so that it will leak for sure, reinstall the 4000 bolts that hold the pan on making sure not to overtighten any of them or strip any of them, and then pour the new fluid through the dipstick tube while praying that it doesn't piss half of it onto the ground. Now while this was acceptable when the change frequency was never or once in the life time of the vehicle, 1 or more times a year is unacceptable. A simple redesign would use a deep sump finned pan with a drain plug and converting the filter to an external spin on type but that would cost a few $$ per vehicle and we just can't have that now, can we. > I'm not sure where you get your information, but you certainly don't have > any real facts. Neither do you although your half-truths are interesting. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> 2000 Dodge FSM calls for medium >> duty (schedule A) ATF change at 24k, heavy duty (schedule B) at 12k. > > That is just about twice as often. Let's deal with current applications. For the 48RE, DC calls for fluid/filter changes every 30,000 miles for severe service (from my '03 FSM). Ford calls for the same (from Ford's online publications). GM (actually Allison) wants fluid/filter changes every 12,000 miles (from Allison's online publications). Now - who's excessive here? > With the advances in materials and lubrication, it most certianly is, Better tell that to the supposedly-highest-technology transmission out there... both Dodge and Ford trannies can go over twice as long on fluid/filter changes. > especially when you pretty much have to take the trans apart (remove the > pan) to do it. Right.... because removing twelve bolts is JUST like disassembling the entire transmission. It's no different than a differential, Tom... are you going to piss and moan about Dana or AAM axles, as well? > And for each change, you have to remove 4000 bolts to drop the pan Only off by 3,988. Hey, for you, that's pretty damn good... > doesn't have a drain), remove and replace the filter while it continues to > drip fluid on you Only if you're stupid enough to put you head in the way. > hope that the new gasket that comes with the kit is not > damaged or folded so that it will leak for sure Funny... I could have sworn my gasket was re-useable. Oh yeah - that's because it is. > reinstall the 4000 bolts that hold the pan on Yep - just like the 4,000 bolts that hold a differential cover on... > making sure not to overtighten any of them or strip any of them Correct. Basic mechanical knowledge and practices are required. If you can't handle that, you're better off paying someone who knows what they're doing... just like anything else on the truck. > >> 2000 Dodge FSM calls for medium > >> duty (schedule A) ATF change at 24k, heavy duty (schedule B) at 12k. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (actually Allison) wants fluid/filter changes every 12,000 miles (from > Allison's online publications). Pardon me while I completely side step this pissing contest and ask a question ... On the fluid/filter change called for by DC, are they recommending a complete fluid change or just the nasty crap that falls when the pan comes off? I have read that a complete change is preferable. However, if I requested that of my "5 star" service department, they would look at me like I had 4 heads. I took my truck a "free detail" after I purchased it. When I drove into the service department, the service guy came over and took my information ... meanwhile my truck is still idling, while we're standing less than 6 inches from the driver side front tire ... the next question floored me ... "Hey, is this thang a diesel?" Craig C. >> >> 2000 Dodge FSM calls for medium >> >> duty (schedule A) ATF change at 24k, heavy duty (schedule B) at 12k. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Pardon me while I completely side step this pissing contest and ask a > question ... But that is what this group is all about!! <G> > On the fluid/filter change called for by DC, are they recommending a > complete fluid change or just the nasty crap that falls when the pan > comes off? I have read that a complete change is preferable. However, > if I requested that of my "5 star" service department, they would look > at me like I had 4 heads. In my "opinion" by having 26 years in the trade and by what I do on my own truck that is used fairly hard, every other time the pan is pulled and filter changed. This gives me a chance to see if there are any sparklies or chunks laying in the pan. The in-between times I put the flush machine on it and just exchange the fluid. > I took my truck a "free detail" after I purchased it. When I drove > into the service department, the service guy came over and took my > information ... meanwhile my truck is still idling, while we're > standing less than 6 inches from the driver side front tire ... the > next question floored me ... "Hey, is this thang a diesel?" I didn't know ole tbone worked in a service dept..... <VBG> Denny > Craig C. > On the fluid/filter change called for by DC, are they recommending a > complete fluid change or just the nasty crap that falls when the pan > comes off? Just the contents of the pan. > I have read that a complete change is preferable. Not in any DC publication... > if I requested that of my "5 star" service department, they would look > at me like I had 4 heads. If regular fluid/filter changes are performed, and the transmission isn't abused (ie. fluid burnt up), there's no need to do anything other than drop the pan (yep, all 4,000 bolts), change the filter, and re-fill. > If regular fluid/filter changes are performed, and the transmission isn't > abused (ie. fluid burnt up), there's no need to do anything other than drop > the pan (yep, all 4,000 bolts), change the filter, and re-fill. Good to know, thanks. One more thing. I have 25k on my truck right now. I usually prefer to change my own fluids, however there is the whole band adjustment thing which I would rather not mess with. So, is it wise then to take it in and let the dealer do the tranny? I will, in turn just change the trasfer case and diffs myself. Craig C. > now. I usually prefer to change my own fluids, however there is the > whole band adjustment thing which I would rather not mess with. It's really nothing to be intimidated about. Just pick up an inch-pound torque wrench (you don't need to go overboard here... I use a $25 wrench I bought from Harbor Freight). The front band can be adjusted without removing anything... the rear is adjusted when you have the pan off. You loosen a locknut with a wrench, tighten the adjuster to 72in.lbs., then back it off a prescribed number of turns (varies from year to year - either check a service manual, or post your exact config. here), then just re-tighten the lock nut. It really is that easy, and shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to to both. > So, is it wise then to take it in and let the dealer do the tranny? Only if you feel the above is beyond your skill level (and trust me, it isn't). Cool, I'll give it shot then. My specs: 2004 Ram 2500, CRD 305/555, 48RE, 4wd. I hope these are the specs your asking for? I suppose I can get serial numbers if that would be better. Craig C. > 2004 Ram 2500, CRD 305/555, 48RE, 4wd. I hope these are the specs your > asking for? I suppose I can get serial numbers if that would be > better. Nope, that's fine. For the front band, you'll need a Torx bit (somewhere between a T30 and a T45 - I don't remember exactly). The adjuster is on the driver's side of the case, right around where the front cooler line comes out of the case. Loosen the locknut with an open-end wrench, and back it off several turns (4-5). Now use the Torx bit on your torque wrench, and tighten the adjuster to 72 in.lbs. Next, back the adjuster off 1-3/4 turns. Hold the adjuster in place, and tighten up the lock nut. For the rear band, you'll need a regular 6-point socket. This adjuster is inside the transmission, and will be accessible with the pan removed. Again, loosen the locknut 4-5 turns with an open-end wrench, then tighten the adjuster to 72 in.lbs. Back off this adjuster 3 full turns, hold it in place, and re-tighten the lock nut. That's it. Thanks for the information. I will make my attempt at fluid changes for the diffs, transfer case and tranny weekend after next (along with a drain plug install and band adjustment). Craig C. I stopped by the dealership and bought all of the fluids and parts I would need to service the truck myself. I asked the service manager for torque specs on the tranny pan bolts and the diff bolts. He said: "Aw hell, just snug'em up." That kind of thinking is the reason I am doing this myself in the first place. :) A couple of questions: What do I torque the diff bolts to? What do I torque the tranny bolts to? (Note, I bought a new gasket and I don't to just "snug'em up". I want to do it right.) The parts guy said I needed friction modifier in the rear diff but not the front diff. But he personally recommended using it in the front diff. So I bought two bottles. Is it going to harm anything to use friction modifier in the front diff? Here's what I got, feel free to point out errors: 6 qts Mopar 75-140 synthetic gear lube 9 qts Mopar ATF+4 tranny fluid for tranny and transfer case tranny gasket 2 bottles of friction modifier tranny filter RTF for diffs Grand total: $235.00. GD! That gear lube is pricey ... $20 per qt. Craig C. >I stopped by the dealership and bought all of the fluids and parts I > would need to service the truck myself. I asked the service manager [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Craig C. Craig, I'm pretty sure you're in Dallas? Maybe you'd like to come visit our club tomorrow? http://www.bigddodgedieselclub.com/calendar.htm The group meets at Bic's Coffee Shop, at the corner of Keller Springs and Midway Road, in Dallas, Tx. (west side of Addison Airport and north of Beltline Rd). The address is 2245 Midway Road. Meetings are at 9:00 am on the 2nd Saturday of the month. Yep, I'm in the Dallas area (McKinney). Thanks for the invite. I couldn't make it today, but I glanced at your web site, perhaps I can make it to the next meeting. It really depends on whether I decide to give my liver a break the night before. :) I know exactly where Bic's is ... in fact I've spent a great deal of money in that place in past years. Craig C. > What do I torque the diff bolts to? Diff. bolts go to 30ft.lbs. > What do I torque the tranny bolts to? (Note, I bought a new gasket and > I don't to just "snug'em up". I want to do it right.) The book says 125in.lbs. 10 ft.lbs. if your torque wrench will read that low. > The parts guy said I needed friction modifier in the rear diff The parts guy is mis-informed... the AAM 10.5 and 11.5 rear differentials use a Trac-Rite helical-gear-based LSD, with no clutch packs. Friction modifier won't hurt, but is completely unnecessary, and a waste of money. > diff. So I bought two bottles. Is it going to harm anything to use > friction modifier in the front diff? Only to your wallet... the same goes for the new tranny pan gasket - the stock one is re-useable, just like the front and rear diff gaskets. > 6 qts Mopar 75-140 synthetic gear lube This was a mis-print by Dodge (since corrected). Standard oil is 75W-90 synthetic. The 75W-140 is only recommended if towing heavy and often. See TSB 03-001-04 for reference: http://www.dodgeram.info/tsb/2004/03-001-04A.htm > RTF for diffs No, no, no! The diff covers now use reuseable gaskets that are to be applied dry - no RTV (or even RTF, for that matter) at all. Tell the guys in the parts dept. to learn about the new trucks. > GD! That gear lube is pricey ... $20 per qt. That's because of the magical Mopar dust. I spend about $6/qt. at my local parts place. In fact: 6 qts. Mobil 1 75W-90 synthetic - $36 12 qts. Pennzoil ATF+3 - $36 (I know they specify the +4... this is what I use) NAPA (Wix) tranny filter - $12 Grand total, with tax: $89. This is why I never buy parts/supplies from the dealership. Thanks for the torque specs. I took your advice and purchased the $28 in. lb. torque wrench from Harbor Freight. So, I'm set for the tranny torqueing. The information I received from the dealership is very troubling. I gave my vin so that they could make sure to give me correct information ... it seems that didn't pan out quite the way I had hoped. Did I get enough tranny fluid? 9 qts. 2 for the transfer case and 6 for the tranny? (1 extra just in case) I'm glad you sent me the TSB on the diff fluid. Now I know to only fill them up 1/4" from the hole. Otherwise I would have filled it until it spilled out. So, I will return the RTV and friction modifiers. Regarding the gaskets, I am more comfortable not re-using what is already there. So, I will purchase the diff gaskets when I return the other stuff. I'm so mad, I could just spit. Craig C. > Did I get enough tranny fluid? 9 qts. 2 for the transfer case and 6 > for the tranny? (1 extra just in case) Yeah, that should be enough. > I'm glad you sent me the TSB on the diff fluid. Now I know to only > fill them up 1/4" from the hole. Otherwise I would have filled it > until it spilled out. I have the 11.5" rear axle, and the spec on that is 1/4" below the fill hole, +/-/4". I read that as, "fill it till it leaks out". The caution against fluid foaming is somewhat laughable... the fluid is constantly getting churned up by the ring gear no matter what, and as such, is formulated with anti-foaming agents. > So, I will return the RTV and friction modifiers. Regarding the > gaskets, I am more comfortable not re-using what is already there. So, > I will purchase the diff gaskets when I return the other stuff. <shrug> That's up to you, but believe me when I tell you, they're meant to be re-used. Double-lipped, rubber over steel. I've had my diff covers on and off probably a half-dozen times, and have never had any leaks. > I'm so mad, I could just spit. Tell the parts guy to put his nose in an '03+ service manual once in a while... these aren't Dana axles anymore (which need both the RTV and the modifier). I finished the fluid changes today. Both diffs, tranny and transfer case. Thanks for the advice and specs you sent . This was my first attempt at adjusting the bands. All went well, but it would have been nice if the front band was as easy as the rear band ... As a side note ... the tranny fluid looked clean. It still had a brilliant red color. The front diff fluid was perfectly clean. The rear diff was pretty nasty. Here's the part that shocked me, the transfer case fluid was really dirty. Since I use 4wd so rarely, I was a bit shocked. 25k, BTW. Craig C. > rear diff was pretty nasty. Here's the part that shocked me, the > transfer case fluid was really dirty. Since I use 4wd so rarely, I was > a bit shocked. Well, everything is always spinning inside the transfer case, regardless of 2WD or 4WD operation. Since the '03+ trucks have no front axle disconnect, the front driveshaft is always turning, which means the front output shaft and chain are always turning. In fact, the only difference between 2WD and 4WD in the transfer case is that when in 4WD, the sprocket that drives the chain (and therefore the front output shaft) is coupled to the rear output shaft. Glad to hear everything went well.... you saved yourself a bunch of money doing it yourself. > >> 2000 Dodge FSM calls for medium > >> duty (schedule A) ATF change at 24k, heavy duty (schedule B) at 12k. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Now - who's excessive here? But the Allison is designed to make this level of service EASY, unlike Ford and DC and from what I have heard, it is a much stronger trans and therefore can be subjected to much more severe use requiring more frequent changes. > > With the advances in materials and lubrication, it most certianly is, > > Better tell that to the supposedly-highest-technology transmission out > there... both Dodge and Ford trannies can go over twice as long on > fluid/filter changes. I would suspect that the Allison could follow the DC and Ford specs with no real problems under the same work loads. What really matters is the individual definitions of severity use that the makers are going by. > > especially when you pretty much have to take the trans apart (remove the > > pan) to do it. > > Right.... because removing twelve bolts is JUST like disassembling the > entire transmission. It's no different than a differential, Tom... are you > going to piss and moan about Dana or AAM axles, as well? For someone who tends to be a stickler for words, you really are dropping the ball here. I said take it apart not completely disassemble it and since the pan is a part of the case, you ARE taking it apart to get to the filter. > > And for each change, you have to remove 4000 bolts to drop the pan > > Only off by 3,988. Hey, for you, that's pretty damn good... Yawn. > > doesn't have a drain), remove and replace the filter while it continues to > > drip fluid on you > > Only if you're stupid enough to put you head in the way. Which is easy to do if you have never done it before. > > hope that the new gasket that comes with the kit is not > > damaged or folded so that it will leak for sure > > Funny... I could have sworn my gasket was re-useable. Oh yeah - that's > because it is. And I guess indestructible as well and if by some magic it tears or is damaged while being removed, can you get it at the auto-parts store? > > reinstall the 4000 bolts that hold the pan on > > Yep - just like the 4,000 bolts that hold a differential cover on... Who cares about the Diff, are we not talking about transmissions and BTW, I have NEVER changed the fluid in a diff (unless I swamped it) and with the exception of the current POS DC 9 1/4 rear, have NEVER had a failure. > > making sure not to overtighten any of them or strip any of them > > Correct. Basic mechanical knowledge and practices are required. If you > can't handle that, you're better off paying someone who knows what they're > doing... just like anything else on the truck. Which costs many people even more money since it does take longer to change the filter and fluid when you need to remove the damn pan to do it and time = $$$$$ for service work. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > For someone who tends to be a stickler for words, you really are dropping > the ball here. I said take it apart not completely disassemble it "pretty much take the trans apart"... sounds like disassemble to me. > the pan is a part of the case The pan is it's own part - it's bolted TO the case. Is the oil pan part of the block? The cover part of the differential housing? >> Only if you're stupid enough to put you head in the way. > > Which is easy to do if you have never done it before. Pretty easy to do with an engine oil change, too... you live, you learn. > And I guess indestructible as well and if by some magic it tears or is > damaged while being removed, can you get it at the auto-parts store? Actually, yes. But, given that it's a steel-core gasket covered in a flexible plastic, the chances of it tearing are pretty slim. > Who cares about the Diff, are we not talking about transmissions I know - but I bring it up because it's the same procedure. > have NEVER changed the fluid in a diff (unless I swamped it) and with the "With these trucks' abilities to be taken off-road, and therefore be subjected to mud and water, it's patently rediculous that they would design the axles to be so difficult to service. They should have drain plugs, fill plugs, check plugs, and water separators so I don't have to spend 2 minutes removing 12 bolts to change the damn fluid". Sounds pretty rediculous, doesn't it? > Which costs many people even more money since it does take longer to > change > the filter and fluid when you need to remove the damn pan to do it and > time > = $$$$$ for service work. I'm willing to bet that the price of a transmission service at the Chevy dealer is going to be pretty much on par (within 5%) of the Dodge dealer. The fact is, any shop is more than equipped to handle this kind of work, and the extra 10 minutes spent removing the pan (which would have to be done anyway, because the bands are to be adjusted when the fluid is changed) and filter isn't going to alter the rate, since it's all billed on the hour anyway. Shall we now discuss why the Dodge transmissions are junk because they use bands, instead of a more complicated system of holding clutches? > Really? for what type of vehicle? Either way, that is once every 2 to 3 > years. Everything from a D100 to a D600, according to the FSM. > With the advances in materials and lubrication, it most certianly is, > especially when you pretty much have to take the trans apart (remove the > pan) to do it. LOL, you CLEARLY have never had a trans apart. Pan bolts and three screws, and you call it "pretty much apart." Is your head up your a.s? > The trans is only as good as it's weakest point. We had this discussion > with the DC 9 1/4 rears and you were wrong there too. While the design of > the rear was unchanged, they decided to save a little money by using > second > rate bearings and that turned the rear into a POS as well, especially for > those who had to cough up the big bucks to repair it. Unfortunately, the weakest point on these transmissions is the idiot behind the wheel, 90% of the time. >> Wrong again. The trans now comes with a cooler for towing. > > Then why are so many people installing aftermarket coolers? Because they aren't smart enough to buy the towing package OR, they buy a used truck that doesn't have it. > Is that the same as no more parts inside of the case at all and if not, > WTF > is your point? The point is that NOTHING is different even though the > internal parts run MUCH hotter than the non-OD units of the past. How > about > a deeper pan and a drain plug? LOL, It HAS a deeper pan!! And they don't run much hotter, maybe 20 degrees, if used properly. >> Third, its not difficult to service, certainly no more so than its > predecessor, which >> wasn't difficult either. > > Sure it is. Much harder than changing the oil and the frequency is damn > near the same amount anymore, especially with the new oils comming out. "Sure it is?" You clearly don't know damn thing. Thats right, you drive a manual shift. So you are basing your argument on the longer engine oil intervals? WTF? You've got nothing, shut up. > And for each change, you have to remove 4000 bolts to drop the pan (and it 4000? Wow, you take the cab off to change the fluid? > doesn't have a drain), None of them do. Your point is moot. >remove and replace the filter Three screws, wow thats hard. > while it continues to > drip fluid on you, I'm not as dumb as you are I guess, since you apparently stand UNDER the trans and on TOP of the drain pan. > hope that the new gasket that comes with the kit is not > damaged or folded so that it will leak for sure, Use a good sealer, and there are no worries. > reinstall the 4000 bolts Make sure the cab is lined up square....... > that hold the pan on making sure not to overtighten any of them or strip > any > of them, Wow thats tough, a little restraint and attention to detail, something you should use with anything mechanical. > and then pour the new fluid through the dipstick tube while praying > that it doesn't piss half of it onto the ground. This neat invention known as a "funnel" eliminates the prayer part of it, not to mention making it very easy. I put 10 quarts in a 4L60E yesterday using a funnel. It took me 5 minutes, because we test drove it to get it warm to be sure the fluid level was accurate on the dipstick. > Now while this was > acceptable when the change frequency was never or once in the life time of > the vehicle, 1 or more times a year is unacceptable. By whose standards? It takes longer to wash the damn truck than it takes to change the trans fluid. I bet you do that more than twice a year. > Neither do you although your half-truths are interesting. Yeah, and your "4000 bolts" are real accurate as well. Keep spinning...... SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> > Yep, instead of redesigning the unit to handle the new requirements >> > they [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > Neither do you although your half-truths are interesting. > Because they aren't smart enough to buy the towing package OR, they buy a > used truck that doesn't have it. Or the factory cooler is insufficient. I have the factory cooler on my 2001 Ram QC 1500. I also put a deep mag-hytech pan on the tranny and a temp guage. It runs hot. When pulling my trailer up grades in the summer it will climb to 240+. I have no idea why as several techs have said the factory cooler should be sufficient. One thing that bothers me is the routing is through the radiator. That would seem to prevent the tranny fluid from ever cooling below the water temp which is 200+. > One thing that bothers me is the routing is through the radiator. That > would seem to prevent the tranny fluid from ever cooling below the water > temp which is 200+. Which has been both blessing and failure.... in the winter, it might actually help to warm the fluid, depending on lattitude of location. Its also notable that engines run warmer now than they did in the 70's because of emissions designs. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> Because they aren't smart enough to buy the towing package OR, they buy a >> used truck that doesn't have it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > would seem to prevent the tranny fluid from ever cooling below the water > temp which is 200+. > > Because they aren't smart enough to buy the towing package OR, they buy a > > used truck that doesn't have it. > > Or the factory cooler is insufficient. I have the factory cooler on my > 2001 Ram QC 1500. I also put a deep mag-hytech pan on the tranny and a > temp guage. It runs hot. Like I said, resorting to the aftermarket. > When pulling my trailer up grades in the summer it will climb to 240+. > I have no idea why as several techs have said the factory cooler should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > would seem to prevent the tranny fluid from ever cooling below the water > temp which is 200+. This is the temp of the water entering the radiator, not the temp leaving it. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Like I said, resorting to the aftermarket. And the problem is?? Not a thing other than you shouldn't have to. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > Like I said, resorting to the aftermarket. > > And the problem is?? > Not a thing other than you shouldn't have to. So manufactures should assume that all 1500 Ram truck buyers are going to tow 5,000lbs up 8% mountain grades in 115 degree heat and equip the base model to handle it? > > Not a thing other than you shouldn't have to. > > So manufactures should assume that all 1500 Ram truck buyers are going > to tow 5,000lbs up 8% mountain grades in 115 degree heat and equip the > base model to handle it? If you ordered the towing package, absolutely. In that case, the worst case scenario should be what it equipped with, especially since you are paying extra for it and if not, then it should still come equipped to deal with heavy traffic conditions since in today's world there is a lot more of it and many people are using these trucks as passenger vehicles, just like you. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > If you ordered the towing package, absolutely. In that case, the worst case > scenario should be what it equipped with, especially since you are paying > extra for it and if not, then it should still come equipped to deal with > heavy traffic conditions since in today's world there is a lot more of it > and many people are using these trucks as passenger vehicles, just like you. Oh come now TBone, peoples needs vary widely. If they made it for the worst case scerio then they'd have to charge more for it. Now everyone has to pay more even if they don't need it. Possibly they could have different levels of tow packages but the market would be too limited for mass production. Thus, they leave that market sector to the aftermarket. > > If you ordered the towing package, absolutely. In that case, the worst case > > scenario should be what it equipped with, especially since you are paying [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > different levels of tow packages but the market would be too limited for > mass production. Thus, they leave that market sector to the aftermarket. LOL, oh bullshit Miles, you just like to argue and at times, make an a.s out of yourself. There are times to cut costs and times not to and if you are going to offer a towing package, then it should be complete or don't bother doing it at all. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > LOL, oh bullshit Miles, you just like to argue and at times, make an a.s out > of yourself. There are times to cut costs and times not to and if you are > going to offer a towing package, then it should be complete or don't bother > doing it at all. lol, good think you aren't in marketing. You just failed miserably with your all too well known absurd logic. Packages are designed to appeal to the most number of people at the price they are willing to pay. If there was money to be made, they'd do it. Sorry TBone, the only reason they don't is because the manufactures couldn't recoup the costs of doing so. If it would, you can bet the tow package would be just as you describe. > > LOL, oh bullshit Miles, you just like to argue and at times, make an a.s out > > of yourself. There are times to cut costs and times not to and if you are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lol, good think you aren't in marketing. You just failed miserably > with your all too well known absurd logic. Please Miles. you should be one of the last people in here to talk about absurd logic. > Packages are designed to appeal to the most number of people at the price they are willing to > pay. That is correct to a point. While completely valid for appearence packages, it is a load of crap for mechanical enhancment ones. If they better outfitted your truck with a larger trans cooler, a trans temp guage or warning light, and a deep sump finned pan for say $100 dollars more than what you paid, would you have said no? I doubt it. > If there was money to be made, they'd do it. Yep, and if they can make even more money using undersized parts that should work for many of the customers then that's what they will do as well. Pretty much exactly what they did and are apparently still doing with the DC 9 1/4 rear bearings. > Sorry TBone, the > only reason they don't is because the manufactures couldn't recoup the > costs of doing so. Sure they could but they can make even more using underrated and less expensive components. They brag about the mighty class 5 receiver and brake line harness making the truck sound like it can tow a house but don't bother to fully protect the transmission if you push these components to their fully rated capabilities and count on the ignorance of the customer as to what else needed to be included but wasn't. > If it would, you can bet the tow package would be just as you describe. Of course it wouldn't. Doing this would cut into profits and that is the ultimate curse in big business. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > extra for it and if not, then it should still come equipped to deal with > heavy traffic conditions since in today's world there is a lot more of it > and many people are using these trucks as passenger vehicles, just like > you. <GASP> By heavy traffic, you mean stop-and-go driving, which would fall under Schedule B? > > extra for it and if not, then it should still come equipped to deal with > > heavy traffic conditions since in today's world there is a lot more of it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > <GASP> By heavy traffic, you mean stop-and-go driving, which would fall > under Schedule B? Yea, if it happened every day and made up most of the mileage on the vehicle. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > Really? for what type of vehicle? Either way, that is once every 2 to 3 > > years. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > LOL, you CLEARLY have never had a trans apart. Pan bolts and three screws, > and you call it "pretty much apart." Is your head up your a.s? Temper, temper Maxi, I wouldn't want you to blow a gasket :-) The fact is that to perform that service, you still need to open the transmisssion which indicates that in its initial design, this level of service was not expected. > > The trans is only as good as it's weakest point. We had this discussion > > with the DC 9 1/4 rears and you were wrong there too. While the design of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Because they aren't smart enough to buy the towing package OR, they buy a > used truck that doesn't have it. Well, now you are saying that you need to purchase a $600 option just to get what the damn thing needs in the first place, LOL! Sounds cheaper to go with the aftermarket AND get better stuff for less. > > Is that the same as no more parts inside of the case at all and if not, > > WTF [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > LOL, It HAS a deeper pan!! And they don't run much hotter, maybe 20 degrees, > if used properly. Always conditions on your answers. > >> Third, its not difficult to service, certainly no more so than its > > predecessor, which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > manual shift. So you are basing your argument on the longer engine oil > intervals? WTF? You've got nothing, shut up. Temper, temper, Maxi. You just hate it when I'm right. > > And for each change, you have to remove 4000 bolts to drop the pan (and it > > 4000? Wow, you take the cab off to change the fluid? It was sarcasm maxi, unless of course your cab is actually held on by over 3900 bolts. > > doesn't have a drain), > > None of them do. Your point is moot. Really, perhaps you should look at the Allison 1000. It also has an external filter making these changes easier than an oil change. I guess that Allison and GM were thinking ahead when they designed this unit. > >remove and replace the filter > > Three screws, wow thats hard. Not hard, but messy and unnecessary when the filter could be converted to an external spin on type and again, you still have to remove the pan to get to those 3 screws. > > while it continues to > > drip fluid on you, > > I'm not as dumb as you are I guess, since you apparently stand UNDER the > trans and on TOP of the drain pan. Please explain how you remove the filter without it dripping fluid on your arms. I can't wait to here this magic. > > hope that the new gasket that comes with the kit is not > > damaged or folded so that it will leak for sure, > > Use a good sealer, and there are no worries. Yea, and too much of that good sealer and you screw up the trans and it also makes the pan that much harder to remove the next time. > > reinstall the 4000 bolts > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Wow thats tough, a little restraint and attention to detail, something you > should use with anything mechanical. It just adds time and risk to the procedure which further demonstrates that this level of service was never intended with the design of this trans. Do you remove the oil pan at each oil change or pull the water pump everytime you change the anti-freeze? > > and then pour the new fluid through the dipstick tube while praying > > that it doesn't piss half of it onto the ground. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > using a funnel. It took me 5 minutes, because we test drove it to get it > warm to be sure the fluid level was accurate on the dipstick. Actually, I was referring it pissing out from a bad seal on the pan gasket. > > Now while this was > > acceptable when the change frequency was never or once in the life time of > > the vehicle, 1 or more times a year is unacceptable. > > By whose standards? It takes longer to wash the damn truck than it takes to > change the trans fluid. I bet you do that more than twice a year. But it is much easier to wash the truck (ever hear of a car wash) and BTW, I don't anymore. Since DC great painting techniques have the paint on the hood and front fenders delaminating, it is not worth the trouble. > > Neither do you although your half-truths are interesting. > > Yeah, and your "4000 bolts" are real accurate as well. About as accurate as you thinking that many hold the cab down on your truck. > Keep spinning...... Ditto SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > that to perform that service, you still need to open the transmisssion > which > indicates that in its initial design, this level of service was not > expected. And again, the exact same thing can be said for the Dana 44, 60, 70, 80, Chrysler 9.25", AAM 9.25", 10.5", 11.5". Are you disassembling the axle when you change the fluid? No - you're removing a cover. > Well, now you are saying that you need to purchase a $600 option just to > get > what the damn thing needs in the first place, LOL! If you don't tow, you don't need it. If you tow, you need it. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. And included in that cost is the aux. cooler, the receiver, wiring harnesses, bigger battery, etc. Oh, and by the way - that trailer tow option? It's a $350 option - not $600. Again, you make rediculous exaggerations to try and bolster a failed argument. > Sounds cheaper to go with the aftermarket AND get better stuff for less. Sure - you gonna get all that, AND get it installed (and, oh yeah, warrantied) for less than $350? Go for it... > Really, perhaps you should look at the Allison 1000. That would be the one that wants 12,000mile fluid changes, right? > Please explain how you remove the filter without it dripping fluid on your > arms. I can't wait to here this magic. Well, for me - I remove the screws, holding the filter in place. I then grab the filter by the one end, pulling it down and away. The fluid drains into the catch pan, and I don't get any on me. > It just adds time and risk to the procedure which further demonstrates > that > this level of service was never intended with the design of this trans. It's amazing how you can deduce that from the construction of the unit - especially when it clearly states in the service manual to change the fluid and filter at regular intervals. I keep going back to this, but based on your twisted logic, the same can be said for the axles, as well. "Clearly, they were never designed for this level of service". You have to remove the SAME amount of fasteners to change their fluid. AND... according to DC, you have to do it TWICE AS OFTEN as the transmission fluid (yep - they now spec. out 15,000 mile fluid changes on front and rear diffs). So, the ONLY difference between doing a transmission fluid change and a differential fluid change is the three (I could swear it's now two screws) Torx screws holding the filter in place. That's it, Tom.... same gasket issues (as the AAM's now have a reusable gasket as well), same number of fasteners, and in the case of the 11.5" rear, about the same amount of fluid (4qts.) - though I'll argue that it's easier dumping in a gallon of ATF through the dipstick with a funnel than it is getting those bottles of gear oil up and into the diff fill plug hole. So - why is it acceptable (or is it even acceptable in your eyes? Maybe all axles out there are crap in your esteemed estimation, as well?) for a differential to require a cover (pan) removal, but not a transmission? > > that to perform that service, you still need to open the transmisssion > > which [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Chrysler 9.25", AAM 9.25", 10.5", 11.5". Are you disassembling the axle > when you change the fluid? No - you're removing a cover. LOL, boy Tom, your noise levels are reaching all new highs. As for the axles, unless you are under heavy duty schedule B or what is actually a heavily used commercial vehicle, you never have to change the fluid in them, at least according to the 97 FSM you don't. This would indicate that they are also not designed with this level of maintenance in mind for the average user. > > Well, now you are saying that you need to purchase a $600 option just to > > get > > what the damn thing needs in the first place, LOL! > > If you don't tow, you don't need it. If you tow, you need it. Funny, that is not the thought comming from the trans experts in here. According to them, you always need it. > Seems pretty straight-forward to me. And included in that cost is the aux. cooler, the > receiver, wiring harnesses, bigger battery, etc. Oh, and by the way - that > trailer tow option? It's a $350 option - not $600. Again, you make > rediculous exaggerations to try and bolster a failed argument. Were you there when I ordered my truck? That is what I had to pay for it and $250 more than you claim is far from a rediculous exagguration. The only rediculous exagguration being made here is comming from you. > > Sounds cheaper to go with the aftermarket AND get better stuff for less. > > Sure - you gonna get all that, AND get it installed (and, oh yeah, > warrantied) for less than $350? Go for it... If you only want to keep the transmission cool, you don't need a receiver, wiring harness for it or a bigger battery unless they perform some other function along those lines that the rest of us are unaware of. > > Really, perhaps you should look at the Allison 1000. > > That would be the one that wants 12,000mile fluid changes, right? Yea, and the one with the EXTERNAL FILTER as well as the DRAIN PLUG and BTW, the GM site claims every 30,000 but then again, you are probably looking at the most extreme schedule again. > > Please explain how you remove the filter without it dripping fluid on your > > arms. I can't wait to here this magic. > > Well, for me - I remove the screws, holding the filter in place. I then > grab the filter by the one end, pulling it down and away. The fluid drains > into the catch pan, and I don't get any on me. And how do you get the screws out without it dripping fluid on you or do you wait for an hour or so for it to stop dripping. > > It just adds time and risk to the procedure which further demonstrates > > that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > especially when it clearly states in the service manual to change the fluid > and filter at regular intervals. It says so for extreme duty applications which you all seem to think that you fit into. The average truck owner is nowhere near a heavy duty schedule B type of use. > I keep going back to this, but based on > your twisted logic, the same can be said for the axles, as well. And again, only the heavy duty schedule B even mentions the axles. This would also indicate that for the greater percentage of owners, changing fluid in them is not required. > "Clearly, they were never designed for this level of service". Hey, you finally got it. For the average owner, they ARE NOT!!! > You have to remove the > SAME amount of fasteners to change their fluid. AND... according to DC, > you have to do it TWICE AS OFTEN as the transmission fluid (yep - they now > spec. out 15,000 mile fluid changes on front and rear diffs). Perhaps because they are using lower quality components or you are once again, using the most extreme schedule. > So, the ONLY > difference between doing a transmission fluid change and a differential [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > axles out there are crap in your esteemed estimation, as well?) for a > differential to require a cover (pan) removal, but not a transmission? I was not talking about the axles here so I said nothing about them at all so how do you know what I find acceptable or not???? SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving now normally i would leave well enough alone and stay out of these arguements....but here i go against better judgement. > > > that to perform that service, you still need to open the transmisssion > > > which [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Funny, that is not the thought comming from the trans experts in here. > According to them, you always need it. i havent seen anyone state that you ALWAYS need em. > > Seems pretty straight-forward to me. And included in that cost is the > aux. cooler, the [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > you fit into. The average truck owner is nowhere near a heavy duty schedule > B type of use. ok out of a general motors owners manual for a 96 S series severe service/short trip definitions: most trips are less than 5 to 10 miles (especially important in sub freezing cond) most trips include extensive idling (defined further as frequent stop and go) you operate your vehicle in dusty conditions or off road you tow a trailer if the vehicle is used in an emergency service, taxi, or commercial application hmmm off the bat even for my old s15 i see 3 that apply and im betting the vast majority could find atleast one of those. > > I keep going back to this, but based on > > your twisted logic, the same can be said for the axles, as well. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > I was not talking about the axles here so I said nothing about them at all > so how do you know what I find acceptable or not???? > now normally i would leave well enough alone and stay out of these > arguements....but here i go against better judgement. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > i havent seen anyone state that you ALWAYS need em. Then you haven't been here very long or are not following the threads. Just about every time someone worries about longevity of their automatic transmission, the first words that usually appear in here is to add a cooler followed by daily fluid flushes (sarcasm here). > > It says so for extreme duty applications which you all seem to think that > > you fit into. The average truck owner is nowhere near a heavy duty [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > most trips are less than 5 to 10 miles (especially important in sub freezing > cond) Are MOST of your trips (highest portion of mileage) of this type AND in sub freezing weather? > most trips include extensive idling (defined further as frequent stop and > go) No, extensive idling and stop and go are different things all together and again, the key word is MOST. IOW, do you drive a taxi? > you operate your vehicle in dusty conditions or off road This means MOST OR ALL OF THE TIME, not a few times a year and do you? > you tow a trailer As in most or all of the time, not a few times per year. > if the vehicle is used in an emergency service, taxi, or commercial > application IOW, relate this condition to the conditions above and you will see what severe duty actually means. > hmmm off the bat even for my old s15 i see 3 that apply and im betting the > vast majority could find atleast one of those. Really, which ones and be realistic about it. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > > now normally i would leave well enough alone and stay out of these > > arguements....but here i go against better judgement. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Are MOST of your trips (highest portion of mileage) of this type AND in sub > freezing weather? i didnt say short and freezing i just said that it empasised the added importance of this in freezing conditions. > > most trips include extensive idling (defined further as frequent stop and > > go) > > No, extensive idling and stop and go are different things all together and > again, the key word is MOST. IOW, do you drive a taxi? again if you read GM's 96 s series owners manual it clearly states "Most trips include extensive idling (such as frequent driving in stop-and-go traffic) the parithisis is a direct copy from the owners manual i originally sited in my responce as an example it is not my interpetation of thier intention. > > you operate your vehicle in dusty conditions or off road > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Really, which ones and be realistic about it. ok you want reality of my driving here ya go bud! i live on a dirt road (dusty condition maybe????) i drive 3.5 miles to work (short trips maybe????) im a regular at the lake as in pullin the boat just about every weekend to the lake.... > LOL, boy Tom, your noise levels are reaching all new highs. How so? We're discussing Dodge trucks, and specifically transmissions. Seems more "signal"-ish to me... > axles, unless you are under heavy duty schedule B or what is actually a > heavily used commercial vehicle, you never have to change the fluid in > them, Correct... if you're of the minority (see below) of users that fall into the light-duty Schedule A. Most of us do not. > at least according to the 97 FSM you don't. Well, in my '99 FSM, under schedule B, it calls for fluid changes every 12K miles (so I was wrong before - the now-current 15K interval is actually longer than it was previously) > This would indicate that they are also not designed with this level of > maintenance in mind for the average > user. The average user isn't capable of removing 12 bolts? Damn - the average sure has dropped off... >> trailer tow option? It's a $350 option - not $600. Again, you make >> rediculous exaggerations to try and bolster a failed argument. > > Were you there when I ordered my truck? That is what I had to pay for it Well, the current pricing is exactly what I quoted. I'm not interested in what happened 9 years ago... I'm talking about the present. And presently, the tow package has an invoice price of $350. > If you only want to keep the transmission cool, you don't need a receiver, And if you're not hooking anything to the truck to pull around, the transmission will never need to be cooled beyond the integrated cooler in the radiator. > Yea, and the one with the EXTERNAL FILTER as well as the DRAIN PLUG and > BTW, > the GM site claims every 30,000 but then again, you are probably looking > at > the most extreme schedule again. I'm looking at the schedule that says, "use this if you tow". > And how do you get the screws out without it dripping fluid on you or do > you > wait for an hour or so for it to stop dripping. Given that you've never done this, I understand your confusion. The filter is encased in a plastic box, with a rubber gasket on the top. Light hand pressure keeps the filter "box" sealed against the valve body via the gasket. With my other hand, I remove the Torx screws. It's really not that difficult... certainly not as complex as, say, removing 12 bolts. > It says so for extreme duty applications which you all seem to think that > you fit into. The average truck owner is nowhere near a heavy duty > schedule > B type of use. Really? See if any of this applies to you: Short trips of less than 10 miles Driving in dusty conditions Trailer towing Long periods of engine idling >50% driving at sustained high speeds above 90°F ambient Stop and go driving Day and night temps are below freezing Off-road operation If any ONE of those applies, congratulations - you're in the severe-duty service category. > would also indicate that for the greater percentage of owners, changing > fluid in them is not required. Well, then the authors of the FSM disagree with you. My FSM states, "NOTE: Most vehicles are operated under the conditions listed for Schedule 'B'". You'll understand if I take the word of the Factory Service Manual over your opinion, right? > I was not talking about the axles here so I said nothing about them at all > so how do you know what I find acceptable or not???? Nope - you didn't. I brought them up, because their service is virtually identical to that of the transmission - the one you find "absolutely unacceptable". I was using the axle maintenance as an analogy (uh-NAL-uh-jee) to point out the flaw in your claims. Sorry if I confused you. > > LOL, boy Tom, your noise levels are reaching all new highs. > > How so? We're discussing Dodge trucks, and specifically transmissions. > Seems more "signal"-ish to me... That would be valid if your argument actually had any real meaning other than opinion bashing. > > axles, unless you are under heavy duty schedule B or what is actually a > > heavily used commercial vehicle, you never have to change the fluid in > > them, > > Correct... if you're of the minority (see below) of users that fall into > the light-duty Schedule A. Most of us do not. Yea, you do, you just don't realize it. > > at least according to the 97 FSM you don't. > > Well, in my '99 FSM, under schedule B, it calls for fluid changes every 12K > miles (so I was wrong before - the now-current 15K interval is actually > longer than it was previously) But since most people do not really fit into that catagory, it really doesn't matter. > > This would indicate that they are also not designed with this level of > > maintenance in mind for the average > > user. > > The average user isn't capable of removing 12 bolts? Damn - the average > sure has dropped off... That is not what I said and I hope you know that. The user should not have to remove 12 bolts for a simple fluid change, especially if they are required often. > >> trailer tow option? It's a $350 option - not $600. Again, you make > >> rediculous exaggerations to try and bolster a failed argument. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > what happened 9 years ago... I'm talking about the present. And presently, > the tow package has an invoice price of $350. Even still, far from a huge exaggeration. > > If you only want to keep the transmission cool, you don't need a receiver, > > And if you're not hooking anything to the truck to pull around, the > transmission will never need to be cooled beyond the integrated cooler in > the radiator. Really????? Not according to the FSM service schedule and YOU for that matter. > > Yea, and the one with the EXTERNAL FILTER as well as the DRAIN PLUG and > > BTW, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I'm looking at the schedule that says, "use this if you tow". Yea, but tow how much? Are you saying that there is no difference between a person like Mac that tows a trailer every now and then and a contractor that tows 6 days a week? > > And how do you get the screws out without it dripping fluid on you or do > > you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > gasket. With my other hand, I remove the Torx screws. It's really not that > difficult... certainly not as complex as, say, removing 12 bolts. Still more work than should be required to change fluid, especially if they know it needs to be done often. > > It says so for extreme duty applications which you all seem to think that > > you fit into. The average truck owner is nowhere near a heavy duty [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > If any ONE of those applies, congratulations - you're in the severe-duty > service category. LOL, you forgot the key word that is in front of EVERY one of these conditions in my FSM F R E Q U E N T. Having the occasional short trip, towing a few times a year, getting stuck in traffic every now and then and a few hot or cold days a year is hardly severe-duty and if you think so, then you are not as bright as I thought you were. Going through one or more of these conditions day in and day out like a taxi or a commercial vehicle or someone that lives in extreme weather conditions is a different story than the every now and then like the rest of us. > > would also indicate that for the greater percentage of owners, changing > > fluid in them is not required. > > Well, then the authors of the FSM disagree with you. My FSM states, "NOTE: > Most vehicles are operated under the conditions listed for Schedule 'B'". What year? Mine says no such thing and when you think about it, the words make no sence at all. If MOST vehicles are operated under Schedule B conditions, then schedule B should actually be schedule A since A reflects NORMAL operation and the higher fitting percentage is always considered normal operations. > You'll understand if I take the word of the Factory Service Manual over your > opinion, right? If you say so but mine says different. > > I was not talking about the axles here so I said nothing about them at all > > so how do you know what I find acceptable or not???? > > Nope - you didn't. I brought them up, because their service is virtually > identical to that of the transmission - the one you find "absolutely > unacceptable". And if the level of service was as demanding as you suggest for normal operations, then I would say that the design of the axles are also unacceptable, hell, even more so since adding a drain plug to the bottom of the housing would be just too easy and inexpensive not to add it if it were needed. > I was using the axle maintenance as an analogy > (uh-NAL-uh-jee) to point out the flaw in your claims. Sorry if I confused > you. The only one you are confusing dude, is yourself. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > That is not what I said and I hope you know that. The user should not > have > to remove 12 bolts for a simple fluid change, especially if they are > required often. Alright - since you seem to think most people fall under the light-duty maintenance schedule, the transmission fluid changes are called for every 100K miles (again - 2003 FSM). Given that, do you still feel that pulling 12 bolts is excessive? > Still more work than should be required to change fluid, especially if > they > know it needs to be done often. According to you, "most" people shouldn't have to do this for 100K miles... shouldn't be a problem then, right? > What year? Mine says no such thing and when you think about it, the words > make no sence at all. 2003 > If you say so but mine says different. You want a scan of the page? > > That is not what I said and I hope you know that. The user should not > > have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 100K miles (again - 2003 FSM). Given that, do you still feel that pulling > 12 bolts is excessive? In this case, since the change would happen probably only ONCE in the lifetime of the vehicle or at least the transmission then no, it is not excessive in that case. Still a PITA, but not excessive. > > Still more work than should be required to change fluid, especially if > > they > > know it needs to be done often. > > According to you, "most" people shouldn't have to do this for 100K miles... > shouldn't be a problem then, right? Not if this is the case but according to you, it is not. > > What year? Mine says no such thing and when you think about it, the words > > make no sence at all. > > 2003 Then like I said, possibly using lower quality parts or possibly trying to cover their a.ses with their longer warranties. > > If you say so but mine says different. > > You want a scan of the page? I have no reason not to believe you but it doesn't say much for their newer vehicles. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving |
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