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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / November 2005Removing transmission
Have a 92 Dodge W250. The throw out bearing is starting to go bad. Has anyone here pulled the transmission and transfer case as a unit? How bad was it? Would it be better to separate them? Any hints would be appreciated. Al, Dreading this. I may start going out for quotes. Its far better to seperate them.  SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. > Have a 92 Dodge W250. The throw out bearing is starting to go bad. Has > anyone here pulled the transmission and transfer case as a unit? How bad [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Al, Dreading this. I may start going out for quotes. I have never changed a cluctch on a Dodge, but I have on a Ford. If you leave the transfer case bolted to the transmission, the transmission becomes very hard to handle. This is especially true when trying to line up the input shaft of the tranny throgh the throw out and pilot bearings. The weight of the transfer case make it hard to keep the coupled pair hard to keep level and horizontal. It was very easy to R&R the transfer case. Have you ever replaced a clutch before? John >I have never changed a cluctch on a Dodge, but I have on a Ford. If you > leave the transfer case bolted to the transmission, the transmission [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > John Many times. I have a 4 post lift and a lot of time. Was just trying to get some idea what I was looking at. May rent a transmission jack and just have a go at it:) Thanks to everyone that responded. The bearing first showed signs of a problem around two years ago. Was noisy when I first started the truck, then it shut up. Now it's really loud. I'm afraid it will lock up and really start damaging things. The clutch is fine but I'll at least change the disk while I'm in there. Can't help thinking the hydraulic clutch mechanism has something to do with this. Al It's probably not, Al. All the "hydraulic clutch" does is replace the old, bind-prone mechanical linkage between pedal and bellhousing. However, an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, hold pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal. -- Budd Cochran > >I have never changed a cluctch on a Dodge, but I have on a Ford. If you > > leave the transfer case bolted to the transmission, the transmission [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Al > It's probably not, Al. All the "hydraulic clutch" does is replace the old, > bind-prone mechanical linkage between pedal and bellhousing. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Budd Cochran So what keeps the throw out bearing from riding on the clutch fingers? I don't remember seeing a spring of any kind under there. Al None. By design there is supposed to be a small fraction of a inch clearance. This was seen in the mechanical systems as your pedal's "freeplay". When air is left in the system the air can warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing. -- Budd Cochran > > It's probably not, Al. All the "hydraulic clutch" does is replace the old, > > bind-prone mechanical linkage between pedal and bellhousing. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Al Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder. I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm. On an old truck with mechanical linkage, there are two springs to keep the throw out bearing off the pressure plate fingers. And, when adjusted correctly, it works. Al > None. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >> Al Al, I can only speak in generalities of the design since I don't have exact knowledge of your truck's design. Some designs have springs, some don't. The same is true of the mechanical linkages. Now, if your truck has been apart before, then maybe someone left off the springs. I don't know exactly. -- Budd Cochran > Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity > would put some pressure on the slave cylinder. I don't see any way for the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >> > >> Al Budd is correct, many times in a hydraulic clutch design, the throwout bearing continues to ride lightly on the clutch fingers. It is assumed that as long as the pressure is light (gravity feed of fluid is very light) it will have little effect on th clutch. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. > Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. > Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder. I don't see any way [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >>> >>> Al . . .inline.. ========== ========== "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net> wrote in message By design there is supposed to be a small fraction of a inch clearance. This was seen in the mechanical systems as your pedal's "freeplay". When air is left in the system the air can warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing. SignatureBudd Cochran =========== =========== "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net> wrote in a seperate message: <snip> However, an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, HOLD pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal. -- Budd Cochran ======== ======== max340@verizon.net (Max Dodge) wrote in message: Budd is correct, many times in a hydraulic clutch design, the throwout bearing continues to ride lightly on the clutch fingers. It is assumed that as long as the pressure is light (gravity feed of fluid is very light) it will have little effect on th clutch. -- Max Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. ========= ========= Here Max, hold still....while i set yer shirt tail on fire...... Budd was wrong on so many levels..... and now your endorsing him. You on the other hand...are only partially wrong. The effects of gravity have nothing to do with the bearing apply. It's the effect of that spring jammed in behind that "slave cylinder apply piston" that hold it all togeather. like it was designed to do. ~:~ MarshMonster ============= ============= >Here Max, > hold still....while i set yer shirt tail on fire...... Set your own clothes on fire.... >Budd was wrong on so many levels..... >and now your endorsing him. Budd was correct: Air in the line has an adverse effect on bearing release. Air in itself can act as a spring, as it compresses nicely, and decompresses just as well. Expansion and contraction due to heat is debatable, in that the effects could vary from none to more than enough to cause the bearing to wear more quickly than normal, depending on a circus full of variables. Budd was correct: There should be a fraction of an inch of freeplay in a mechanical system. In a hydraulic system, not so likely. > You on the other hand...are only partially wrong. The effects of > gravity have nothing > to do with the bearing apply. That means I'm entirely correct, since you agree completely with that statement. > It's the effect > of that spring jammed in behind that "slave > cylinder apply piston" that hold it all togeather. Assuming there is one, thats true. But there is not always a spring behind the slave cylinder piston. Secondly, the sole purpose of that spring is to be sure that the piston is fully extended to the clutch fingers at rest, so only a single stroke of the clutch pedal is needed to release the clutch. Its effects on wearing the throwout bearing are almost as negligible as that of gravity on the throwout bearing. As such, if you are saying it has any negative effect on the throwout bearing, you are incorrect. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. . . .inline.. ========== ========== "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net> wrote in message By design there is supposed to be a small fraction of a inch clearance. This was seen in the mechanical systems as your pedal's "freeplay". When air is left in the system the air can warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing. SignatureBudd Cochran =========== =========== "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net> wrote in a seperate message: <snip> However, an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, HOLD pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal. -- Budd Cochran ======== ======== max340@verizon.net (Max Dodge) wrote in message: Budd is correct, many times in a hydraulic clutch design, the throwout bearing continues to ride lightly on the clutch fingers. It is assumed that as long as the pressure is light (gravity feed of fluid is very light) it will have little effect on th clutch. -- Max Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. ========= ========= Here Max, hold still....while i set yer shirt tail on fire...... Budd was wrong on so many levels..... and now your endorsing him. You on the other hand...are only partially wrong. The effects of gravity have nothing to do with the bearing apply. It's the effect of that spring jammed in behind that "slave cylinder apply piston" that hold it all togeather. like it was designed to do. ~:~ MarshMonster ============= ============= . . <inline> ========= ========= "Marsh Monster" <SWAMPGRASS5@webtv.net> wrote in message Here Max, hold still....while i set yer shirt tail on fire...... <snip> Budd was wrong on so many levels..... and now your endorsing him. <snip> You on the other hand...are only partially wrong. The effects of gravity have nothing to do with the bearing apply. <snip> It's the effect of that spring jammed in behind that "slave cylinder apply piston" that hold it all togeather. <snip> ======= ======= max340@verizon.net (Max Dodge) aimed his propane torch at Marsh and fired back: Set your own clothes on fire.... Budd was correct: Air in the line has an adverse effect on bearing release. Air in itself can act as a spring, as it compresses nicely, and decompresses just as well. Expansion and contraction due to heat is debatable, in that the effects could vary from none to more than enough to cause the bearing to wear more quickly than normal, depending on a circus full of variables. Budd was correct: There should be a fraction of an inch of freeplay in a mechanical system. In a hydraulic system, not so likely. That means I'm entirely correct, since you agree completely with that statement. (considering springs in slave cyl's.) Assuming there is one, thats true. But there is not always a spring behind the slave cylinder piston. Secondly, the sole purpose of that spring is to be sure that the piston is fully extended to the clutch fingers at rest, so only a single stroke of the clutch pedal is needed to release the clutch. Its effects on wearing the throwout bearing are almost as negligible as that of gravity on the throwout bearing. As such, if you are saying it has any negative effect on the throwout bearing, you are incorrect. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. ================ ================ Max, you idiot........ you can add words, delete words, or even rearrange the words in this thread....but, the facts are the facts, perhaps you should go back to the start of the thread and read what you're commenting on..... BECAUSE........ (#1) master Budd...did not use the words "adverse effect"!!! What he DID say was that hot air could apply the damn bearing.....WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE. And....it's evident that you don't know that... and also that you when yer reading...yer read'n whut you want to...not what's written. (#2) I NEVER stated air did not, could not, or even would not.....act as a spring....I would even go far as to say that if it had been me... I would have preffered the phrase..... "Has a cushioning effect".....but that's jest me. I don't liketo compare unlikes...air is not a spring after all........as much as you may want it to be. (#3) As far as your little rant on expansion and contraction.......there's nothing debatable about the fact that hot air will NEVER apply a release bearing in the vehical that is under consideration in this thread..........unless yer willing to debate with idiots that think it can. (#4) Budd DID NOT STATE...... "there should be a fraction of an inch freeplay in a mechanical system".............. Read the statement he made as many times as you want ......but it still comes down to this........what YOU are reading is not being shown in this thread, and you are defending statements that WERE NOT made and that I did not argue against. Though I am more than willing to argue with you over the statements that are posted that I find to be incorrect. Budd posted that by design there should be a fraction of an inch .......you took the word "mechanical" and placed it in that statement. Again...read the thread. I thunk you'll see the conversation had turned to one concerning HYDRAULIC systems, Budd used the term mechanical in a following paragraph. #5) I did not say that the spring in the slave cylinder had a negative effect on the release bearing. I did not even infer that it did. I did not even consider that it would. I did not even imagine that some idiot would read my post and somehow find a secret code that my words appear to say that. #6) I know what I'm talking about.... You don't...... That's clear to me..... But you don't believe me..... That's okay by me..... But do yerself a favor......retreat now...while i'm still being kind and only calling you an idiot instead of proving that yer one. #7) Stop top posting.....it's quite the bofah ~:~ MARSHMONSTER ~grrrrrrrrrr~ Fix your quotes. I skip most of your posts because they are too hard to read. -- Ken > Fix your quotes. > I skip most of your posts because they are too hard to read. You're not the only one. I'd much prefer reading a top-post (why the hell do people get so bent out of shape over that? It's easier reading, IMO) than the illegible lack-of-quoting (and over-quoting) that he does. "professional" mechanic or not, if you can't communicate, you're perceived as an idiot. > "professional" mechanic or not, if you can't communicate, you're perceived > as an idiot. So that's what happened to me.... I've been pondering that for years.. Denny > So that's what happened to me.... I've been pondering that for years.. Wow.... I've never seen a bigger target painted before.... Roy should have no trouble hitting that one! :) >> So that's what happened to me.... I've been pondering that for years.. > > Wow.... I've never seen a bigger target painted before.... Roy should > have no trouble hitting that one! :) Gotta give him an easy one every once in a while or he quits playing.. Denny >>> So that's what happened to me.... I've been pondering that for years.. >> >> Wow.... I've never seen a bigger target painted before.... Roy should >> have no trouble hitting that one! :) > > Gotta give him an easy one every once in a while or he quits playing.. Thats too easy and ya know it. Roy > Denny Heck, I won't even touch it . . . . . maybe -- Budd Cochran > >> So that's what happened to me.... I've been pondering that for years.. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Denny > Heck, I won't even touch it . . . . . maybe > > -- > Budd Cochran At your age, you gotta touch everything you can sneak up on... <GBMFG> Denny >> Heck, I won't even touch it . . . . . maybe >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Denny Now that was funny!<GBMFG> Roy At your age, you still get slapped if you do -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. > > Heck, I won't even touch it . . . . . maybe > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Denny >> So that's what happened to me.... I've been pondering that for years.. > > Wow.... I've never seen a bigger target painted before.... Roy should > have no trouble hitting that one! :) Tom, you have never seen that wide ride waddle into a restaurant. Now that is a target. Roy And, pray tell, what qualifications do you have? And learn how to quote properly. Your posts are hard to read and if you continue, I'm sure many, including myself, would rather just kill file you rather than wade thru the junk -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. . . <inline> ========= ========= "Marsh Monster" <SWAMPGRASS5@webtv.net> wrote in message Budd was wrong on so many levels..... and now your endorsing him. > What he DID say was that hot air could apply > the damn bearing.....WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE. In theory, yes. In reality, stranger things have happened. > And....it's evident that you don't know that... > and also that you when yer reading...yer read'n > whut you want to...not what's written. Sorta like you. > I NEVER stated air did not, could not, or even > would not.....act as a spring....I would even Then we agree. > go far as to say that if it had been me... > I would have preffered the phrase..... > "Has a cushioning effect".....but that's jest me. While that is a better way to describe it, it also describes what a spring does. > I don't liketo compare unlikes...air is not a spring after all........as > much as you may want it to be. Unfortunately, when refering to a gas, you are referring to something that is elastic in nature, acting like a spring. As such, they act more alike than not. > As far as your little rant on expansion and > contraction.......there's nothing debatable > about the fact that hot air will NEVER apply > a release bearing in the vehical that is under consideration in this > thread..........unless yer willing to debate with idiots that think it > can. Prime example of your lack of reading. I stated it as a generality, not a specific, and noted that odd conditions could occur and thus every situation was different, thus DEBATABLE. > I know what I'm talking about.... > You don't...... > That's clear to me..... Excep for the fact that we agree, and you haven't figured it out yet. > But you don't believe me..... > That's okay by me..... I think your statements are regarding a perfect design and conditions. Typical of a mechanic that does only one thing and does it well. Come out to where there are a fascinating array of designs and problems, and your textbook world crumbles. > But do yerself a favor......retreat now...while > i'm still being kind and only calling you an > idiot instead of proving that yer one. Good luck. Your wording and style have already proven what you are. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. . I'm sorry, I didn't catch how many years of hydraulics experience you have and how many years of mechanics you've worked. 10 years heavy equipment mechanic/ journeyman millwright, 30 years small engine mechanic. Yep, both automotive experience and hydraulics in one low cost package. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. . . .inline.. ========== ========== "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net> wrote in message By design there is supposed to be a small fraction of a inch clearance. This was seen in the mechanical systems as your pedal's "freeplay". When air is left in the system the air can warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing. -- Budd Cochran =========== =========== "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net> wrote in a seperate message: <snip> However, an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, HOLD pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal. -- Budd Cochran ======== ======== max340@verizon.net (Max Dodge) wrote in message: Budd is correct, many times in a hydraulic clutch design, the throwout bearing continues to ride lightly on the clutch fingers. It is assumed that as long as the pressure is light (gravity feed of fluid is very light) it will have little effect on th clutch. -- Max Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. ========= ========= Here Max, hold still....while i set yer shirt tail on fire...... Budd was wrong on so many levels..... and now your endorsing him. You on the other hand...are only partially wrong. The effects of gravity have nothing to do with the bearing apply. It's the effect of that spring jammed in behind that "slave cylinder apply piston" that hold it all togeather. like it was designed to do. ~:~ MarshMonster ============= ============= . . <inline> ========== ========== mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) wrote to marshmonster: I'm sorry, I didn't catch how many years of hydraulics experience you have and how many years of mechanics you've worked. 10 years heavy equipment mechanic/ journeyman millwright, 30 years small engine mechanic. Yep, both automotive experience and hydraulics in one low cost package. SignatureBudd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. ================ ================ Budd, I did'nt throw it at you ...that's why you didn't catch it. and jeez....... with 30 years small engine expeirience i'm show not gonna argue clutch BASICS with you.... Though i may continue to correct you when you're wrong....specially as seing as you may need to know it, being as you'se work'n on all them heavy trucks and all. ~:~ MarshMonster ~certifiable~ .and...reely fkng gud at what he dooos.. ~:~ WARNING Poster believes he has but forth an effort to show intelligence, logic, common sense, and courtesy in his replies.....by not saying that you evidently had no understanding at all about the system being discussed and therefore should forgo giving advice that may cause the OP to go chasing his arse around trying to figure out what the heck is going on with his truck.....instead i looked toward religious beliefs and turned the other cheek and simply corrected your bad advice. Hope society can deal with that. if not....oh well. . . <inline> ========== ========== mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) wrote to marshmonster: I'm sorry, I didn't catch how many years of hydraulics experience you have and how many years of mechanics you've worked. 10 years heavy equipment mechanic/ journeyman millwright, 30 years small engine mechanic. Yep, both automotive experience and hydraulics in one low cost package. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. ================ ================ Budd, I did'nt throw it at you ...that's why you didn't catch it. Why not? I've been in this group since 96 and most of the long term subscribers know my qualifications and my accuracy. and jeez....... with 30 years small engine expeirience i'm show not gonna argue clutch BASICS with you.... <LOL> Then you don't know small engines. Do you realize that a small, single cylinder engine is harder to maintain than a V-10, proportionally speaking? Why? Only one cylinder. If the engine isn't right, it won't run. Apply that level of workmanship to a V-8 and watch it scream. As for clutch basics . . . .want to talk about 12" dia. clutch / fluid coupling R/R as is needed by the Yale-Towne forklifts from the 40's to 60's, since they used a two speed forward / two speed reverse manual transmission weighing a svelte 450 pounds and a fluid coupling / clutch assembly that weighed 100 pounds (come on, line up the splines, buddy). Or how about a 36" air operated multi-plate clutch used on a 300 ton smack press? Though i may continue to correct you when you're wrong....specially as seing as you may need to know it, being as you'se work'n on all them heavy trucks and all. Actually, forklifts were the primary equipment I repaired but that is only one application of my hydraulics knowledge, and the cylinder that got hot and bent the exhaust pipe was on a vertical Pines tubing bender (remember, millwright journeyman?). Now, if we could also get you to write like someone with the intelligence to pour water out of a boot with directions on the heel, maybe you would be understood better. Yeah, I use slang terms, but only in fun, not to demonstrate my I.Q. ~:~ MarshMonster ~certifiable~ .and...reely fkng gud at what he dooos.. Except when it comes to being intelligent. ~:~ WARNING Poster believes he has but forth an effort to show intelligence, logic, common sense, and courtesy in his replies.....by not saying that you evidently had no understanding at all about the system being discussed and therefore should forgo giving advice that may cause the OP to go chasing his arse around trying to figure out what the heck is going on with his truck.....instead i looked toward religious beliefs and turned the other cheek and simply corrected your bad advice. Hope society can deal with that. if not....oh well. Thank you for the complement. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. . . <inline> ========== ========== nospamsal1@qwest.net (Big Al) wrote in message: Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder. I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm. On an old truck with mechanical linkage, there are two springs to keep the throw out bearing off the pressure plate fingers. And, when adjusted correctly, it works. Al ========= ========= The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm) Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time. A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed. The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston......... and....wah..lah...... no hydraulic pressure..... Jest an ole timey mechanical spring and arm set up........in a fancy package. Can you figure out why the piston can move in and out at over 1500 rpms without creating hydr. pres. that would actually cause the clutch to apply? ~:~ MarshMonster ~has to go work on his truck....got to get that brake master cylinder below the level of the calipers~ . . <inline> ========== ========== nospamsal1@qwest.net (Big Al) wrote in message: Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder. I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm. On an old truck with mechanical linkage, there are two springs to keep the throw out bearing off the pressure plate fingers. And, when adjusted correctly, it works. Al ========= ========= The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm) Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time. A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed. The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston......... Thank you for trying to understand this crap design. So, the engineers think it's OK to have the throw out bearing spin continously. That's why they don't last as long as they used to. In the interest of lower cost, the engineers have again screw us with a poor design. If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in. ~:~ MarshMonster ~has to go work on his truck....got to get that brake master cylinder below the level of the calipers~ Another problem I had to deal with in my 74 Camaro race car. At least I figured that one out by myself. Al . . <inline> ======= ======= Re: Removing transmission....Fact not Fiction Group: alt.autos.dodge.trucks Date: Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 5:31pm (CDT-2) From: nospamsal1@qwest.net (Big Al) "Marsh Monster" <SWAMPGRASS5@webtv.net> wrote in message news:6315-43616C3A-288@storefull-3353.bay.webtv.net... . <inline> ========== ========== nospamsal1@qwest.net (Big Al) wrote in message: <edited> I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm. Al ========= ========= MarshMonster replied: <snip> The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm) <snip> A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed. ~:~ MarshMonster ============ ============ Thank you for trying to understand this crap design. So, the engineers think it's OK to have the throw out bearing spin continously. That's why they don't last as long as they used to. In the interest of lower cost, the engineers have again screw us with a poor design. If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in. Al ======== ======== yer welcome, it's my job to understand it. Let's not get started on engineers.... dey got big egos and are lurk'n about ready to defend their idiotic reasonings at all times. Eventhough I have found many errors in Budds advice....I don't recall him posting the spring thing on a hydraulic set up in this thread. But I'm gonna re-read the thread to find out if he did....and if he did.......we'll see if we can't keep the thread lively....lol. ~:~ MarshMonster >Thank you for trying to understand this crap design. So, the engineers think >it's OK to have the throw out bearing spin continously. That's why they >don't last as long as they used to. In the interest of lower cost, the >engineers have again screw us with a poor design. Generally not enough pressure to cause the bearing to spin all the time - just rub gently and slowly rotate. >If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to >control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in. And you would need to adjust the clutch, just like on a mechanical system. SOME hydraulic systems actually do work this way. Spring and all. >~:~ >MarshMonster [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Al > If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to > control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in. > > Al Uh, Al, they make adjustable pushrods, don't they? Besides, one advantage to a hydraulic setup is the ease, or lack of need for, adjustment. With a hydraulic setup, everything can be slammed together at the factory, bled with a pressurized filler and sent down the line. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. >> If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way > to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Budd Cochran With a hydraulic lifter, I assume that's what you're talking about, you want a light pressure on the valve to keep the lash to zero. We are talking about a throw out bearing rotating when the engine is running. It's not the same. We were taught NOT to have pressure on the bearing all the time. Hence the free play adjustment. That's what we're discussing. Apparently the engineers decided to reduce the cost of the clutch linkage, they would just sacrifice the throw out bearing. Another example of this fine engineering is the new Dodge truck 4X4 front axles, with no disconnect. What the Hell, it don't cost them money to drive the axle all the time, it saves it. We however get to pay for it every day. Just like in the old days when full time 4 wheel drive came and went. By the way that was another Chrysler design. Al > >> If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way > > to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > a light pressure on the valve to keep the lash to zero. We are talking about > a throw out bearing rotating when the engine is running. It's not the same. No, Al, the rod that pushes the piston in the master cylinder or the rod that pushes the clutch arm or the rod that pushes Curly off the Three Stooges boat is a push rod. > We were taught NOT to have pressure on the bearing all the time. Hence the > free play adjustment. That's what we're discussing. Apparently the engineers > decided to reduce the cost of the clutch linkage, they would just sacrifice > the throw out bearing. Bearing design, metallurgy, even the lubricants used today are much different than just 10 years ago. But if the rod is retained with a simple synthetic rubber ring in the socket on the piston on the slave cylinder, a light spring used to ensure retraction, there can be a freeplay clearance. No pressure all the time? Well, gee, how do wheel bearings last 100K, axle bearings, . . . .Al, even when not rotating, bearings have pressure on them of some kind. > Another example of this fine engineering is the new > Dodge truck 4X4 front axles, with no disconnect. What the Hell, it don't > cost them money to drive the axle all the time, it saves it. We however get > to pay for it every day. Just like in the old days when full time 4 wheel > drive came and went. By the way that was another Chrysler design. Yep, and it actually worked well as designed, drove them in the military, but gas mileage was destroyed. Right now there's a 78 Dodge sitting at parts store for sale for $1200 and it's a full time 4X4. From what I can find out the only problem with it is . . .gas mileage. Budd . . <inline> ========== ========== "Big Al" <nospamsal1@qwest.net> wrote in message If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in. Al ============= ============ mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) wrote: Uh, Al, they make adjustable pushrods, don't they? Besides, one advantage to a hydraulic setup is the ease, or lack of need for, adjustment. With a hydraulic setup, everything can be slammed together at the factory, bled with a pressurized filler and sent down the line. SignatureBudd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. ================= ================= uh Budd, you should use some of that intelligence, logic, and common sense you want others to use in their posts. 1) Big AL was referring to slave cylinders... as were You in the post he was referring back to!! 2) On hydraulic clutch systems (which is what the thread has become about) the adjustable push rod is on the master cylinder.....not on the slave cylinder, and we have been discussing the slave cylinder....and so have you. 3) Most of the systems DO NOT incorporate an adjustable push rod at all. so....that jest chunks one more kink in yer hydraulic theories. 4) as far as hydraulic setups being easy...... they're easy to me, and it's easy to see, that you think they're easy to thee, but I can see, that you should be, more concerned with a diagnostic tree.....in order to be...more proficient you see...when you debate with me.....hydraulic formalities. ~:~ MarshMonster ~endorses Budds postscript signature~ . . <inline> ========== ========== "Big Al" <nospamsal1@qwest.net> wrote in message If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in. Al ============= ============ mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) wrote: Uh, Al, they make adjustable pushrods, don't they? Besides, one advantage to a hydraulic setup is the ease, or lack of need for, adjustment. With a hydraulic setup, everything can be slammed together at the factory, bled with a pressurized filler and sent down the line. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. ================= ================= uh Budd, you should use some of that intelligence, logic, and common sense you want others to use in their posts. Uh, sorry, I'm stating that I will use regardless of idiots like yourself. 1) Big AL was referring to slave cylinders... as were You in the post he was referring back to!! Yep, but many items in the designs are common between master cylinders and slave cylinders. One of the disadvantages to readily available over the counter rebuilt parts is that people like yourself have never had the enjoyment of reaming out a rusty cylinder and installing a rebuild kit then reinstalling the cylinder. 2) On hydraulic clutch systems (which is what the thread has become about) the adjustable push rod is on the master cylinder.....not on the slave cylinder, and we have been discussing the slave cylinder....and so have you. Not all have the adjustment on the master cylinder end. 3) Most of the systems DO NOT incorporate an adjustable push rod at all. MOST??? You still haven't given me, if no one else, any reason to believe you even know which end your head is on. so....that jest chunks one more kink in yer hydraulic theories. Nope, just different systems than ones I've worked on. 4) as far as hydraulic setups being easy...... they're easy to me, and it's easy to see, that you think they're easy to thee, but I can see, that you should be, more concerned with a diagnostic tree.....in order to be...more proficient you see...when you debate with me.....hydraulic formalities. Ok, let's see . . . .move 100,000 pounds four miles with 3.5 hp. . . <inline> ========== ========== nospamsal1@qwest.net (Big Al) wrote in message: Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder. I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm. On an old truck with mechanical linkage, there are two springs to keep the throw out bearing off the pressure plate fingers. And, when adjusted correctly, it works. Al ========= ========= The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm) Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time. ROTFLMBO!!! Got news for you, friend. There are many hydraulic pushrod / socket arrangements that have slack in them . . .Ya just need a socket made a little deeper or a soft rubber retainer to hold them together . . .look at the brake pedal push rod if you need proof. And before you cackle again, the hydraulic pressure on this rod is from the return springs on your braking system pushing it back up after a brake application.. A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed. That setup is wrong. The spring has to return the piston. The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston......... And your throwout bearing gets the bejesus worn out of it in short order. and....wah..lah...... It's "voila!" (Fr) [Phonetic: v-wa-la], genius. oh, btw Miss Piggy doesn't say it right. no hydraulic pressure..... Jest an ole timey mechanical spring and arm set up........in a fancy package. Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!!! Can you figure out why the piston can move in and out at over 1500 rpms without creating hydr. pres. that would actually cause the clutch to apply? Uh, strokes, which are what a piston does are not measured in RPMs, but strokes per (minute, second, day, year, millennium; pick one) ~:~ MarshMonster ~has to go work on his truck....got to get that brake master cylinder below the level of the calipers~ Well, if your driving is anything like your knowledge, then just head for the nearest sharp curve and you'll get the master cylinder below, above, below, above, below . . . . . . <INLINE> =========== =========== nospamsal1@qwest.net (Big Al) wrote in message: Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder. <snip> Al ========= ========= because Budd rearanged all the electrons in the post so's he could rant fer his own benefit.. the following is in Broadway script form... (quite appropriate being as this has turned into a comedy) (MARSH replied) The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm) Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time. <BUDD said) ROTFLMBO!!! Got news for you, friend. There are many hydraulic pushrod / socket arrangements that have slack in them . . .Ya just need a socket made a little deeper or a soft rubber retainer to hold them together . . look at the brake pedal push rod if you need proof . And before you cackle again, the hydraulic pressure on this rod is from the return springs on your braking system pushing it back up after a brake application.. (MARSH said) A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed. <BUDD says> That setup is wrong. The spring has to return the piston. (MARSH stated)) The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston......... <BUDD said> And your throwout bearing gets the bejesus worn out of it in short order. and....wah..lah...... It's "voila!" (Fr) [Phonetic: v-wa-la], genius. oh, btw Miss Piggy doesn't say it right. (MARSH SAID) no hydraulic pressure..... Jest an ole timey mechanical spring and arm set up........in a fancy package. <BUDD cackled> Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!!! (MARSH asked) Can you figure out why the piston can move in and out at over 1500 rpms without creating hydr. pres. that would actually cause the clutch to apply? (BUDD said) Uh, strokes, which are what a piston does are not measured in RPMs, but strokes per (minute, second, day, year, millennium; pick one) <snip> ========= ========= Budd, #1) if you need to be adding sockets and rubber to hold yer pushrods in.....then you shouldn't be giving the OP advice on how to do a good job... #2) we're are not discussing brakes...and if we were.....could you please tell me where I could find the return springs in my brake system that's causing hydraulic pressure to push the pedal back up...rotflmfao at yer total ignorance of brake hydraulics too. #3) now this ones tricky....cuz yer correct..... The spring does return the piston.... jest as I STATED.......... but the for the life of me I can't figure out why you said the setup was wrong but then in the next sentence confirmed what I said. (must've been on the last glass of shroom juice on that one ....aye?) #4) for the last time you ignernt fool...... the release bearing RIDES ON THE FINGERS of the pressure plate....that's a fact..... and you rant'n on about a release bearing get'n the "bejesus worn out of it in short order", is not gonna change that fact!!!! we can debate why the bearing ain't wearing out all the time if you like....but be advised... I'm likely to come out ahead in the spitting match....cuz i'm will'n to bet that i got a hell of a lot better handle on a clutch system than you do.... #5) i wuz'nt gonna call you names in this thread... but you done started it ... so....... idiot (at least on clutch systems...and i'm start'n to hope ain't no heavy trucks runn'n round my area that you did brake jobs on too) ~:~ MARSHMONSTER ~certifiable...not certified~ . . <INLINE> =========== =========== nospamsal1@qwest.net (Big Al) wrote in message: Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder. <snip> Al ========= ========= because Budd rearanged all the electrons in the post so's he could rant fer his own benefit.. the following is in Broadway script form... (quite appropriate being as this has turned into a comedy) Only because we're laughing at your deliberately poor English. (MARSH replied) The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm) <LOL> So, how many ways can a link to a piston be connected? Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time. Then you have not the knowledge you think you have. <BUDD said) ROTFLMBO!!! Got news for you, friend. There are many hydraulic pushrod / socket arrangements that have slack in them . . .Ya just need a socket made a little deeper or a soft rubber retainer to hold them together . . look at the brake pedal push rod if you need proof . And before you cackle again, the hydraulic pressure on this rod is from the return springs on your braking system pushing it back up after a brake application.. (MARSH said) A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed. <BUDD says> That setup is wrong. The spring has to return the piston. (MARSH stated)) The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston......... <BUDD said> And your throwout bearing gets the bejesus worn out of it in short order. and....wah..lah...... It's "voila!" (Fr) [Phonetic: v-wa-la], genius. oh, btw Miss Piggy doesn't say it right. (MARSH SAID) no hydraulic pressure..... Jest an ole timey mechanical spring and arm set up........in a fancy package. <BUDD cackled> Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!!! (MARSH asked) Can you figure out why the piston can move in and out at over 1500 rpms without creating hydr. pres. that would actually cause the clutch to apply? (BUDD said) Uh, strokes, which are what a piston does are not measured in RPMs, but strokes per (minute, second, day, year, millennium; pick one) <snip> ========= ========= Budd, #1) if you need to be adding sockets and rubber to hold yer pushrods in.....then you shouldn't be giving the OP advice on how to do a good job... Then you've never had a brake master cylinder off a 60's era car. #2) we're are not discussing brakes...and if we were.....could you please tell me where I could find the return springs in my brake system that's causing hydraulic pressure to push the pedal back up...rotflmfao at yer total ignorance of brake hydraulics too. I see you've never had wheel cylinders apart either. #3) now this ones tricky....cuz yer correct..... The spring does return the piston.... jest as I STATED.......... but the for the life of me I can't figure out why you said the setup was wrong but then in the next sentence confirmed what I said. (must've been on the last glass of shroom juice on that one ....aye?) A spring can't push and pull at the same time. #4) for the last time you ignernt fool...... the release bearing RIDES ON THE FINGERS of the pressure plate....that's a fact..... and you rant'n on about a release bearing get'n the "bejesus worn out of it in short order", is not gonna change that fact!!!! And the fingers keep that race turning and turning and . . . we can debate why the bearing ain't wearing out all the time if you like....but be advised... I'm likely to come out ahead in the spitting match....cuz i'm will'n to bet that i got a hell of a lot better handle on a clutch system than you do.... From what I've read, no, you don't. #5) i wuz'nt gonna call you names in this thread... but you done started it ... so....... idiot (at least on clutch systems...and i'm start'n to hope ain't no heavy trucks runn'n round my area that you did brake jobs on too) I've been called worse by better than you. Come on, prove you know where your head is at, list YOUR qualifications. ~:~ MARSHMONSTER ~certifiable...not certified~ Not certified to work on vehicles? Oh, and fire up your spell checker. Your posts are giving mine a headache. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. . . <inline> ========== ========== (Concerning release bearing to pressure plate clearance) mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) worte in message: <snip> By design there is supposed to be a small fraction of a inch clearance. This was seen in the mechanical systems as your pedal's "freeplay". When air is left in the system the air can warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing. SignatureBudd Cochran ============ ============ By design there is supposed to be NO small faction of a inch clearance. though... This WAS seen in the mechanical systems as your pedals "freeplay". When air is left in the system......... there is NO WAY IN HELL it will EVER warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing......especially being as the bearing is already riding on fingers. a question........... if the air COULD....expand due to heat and apply the bearing..... then why isn't the fluid expanding and applying the bearing???????? air compress's brake fluid DOES NOT ~:~ MarshMonster ~sips his axle grease~ When air is left in the system......... there is NO WAY IN HELL it will EVER warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing......especially being as the bearing is already riding on fingers. a question........... if the air COULD....expand due to heat and apply the bearing..... then why isn't the fluid expanding and applying the bearing???????? air compress's brake fluid DOES NOT Air expands when heated, most fluids do not . . . or have you forgotten how a hot air balloon works ( generally taught by the time you get to the third grade). -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. ~:~ MarshMonster ~sips his axle grease~ > When air is left in the system......... > there is NO WAY IN HELL it will EVER [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > Budd Cochran Liquid does expand when heated. This is high school physics. That's why hot water rises, or classifies. You're confusing this with compressing liquids. We were taught you can't compress liquids, and even that is false. Under enough pressure it will compress. Ever hear of hot ice? Al > > When air is left in the system......... > > there is NO WAY IN HELL it will EVER [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > We were taught you can't compress liquids, and even that is false. Under > enough pressure it will compress. Ever hear of hot ice? No, Al, I am not confusing compression with expansion, and I'd appreciate it if you'd quit talking down to me like I'm a kid. The hot air rises for the same reason as the water, CONVECTION, but hot air also EXPANDS. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. >> Liquid does expand when heated. This is high school physics. That's why > hot [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > WARNING!!! Budd, Thanks for the warning. Just take a second and read what I took the time to tell you. LIQUID EXPANDS WHEN HEATED! Got it? Another poster tried to explain it but you ignored him too. Here one more time, LIQUID EXPANDS WHEN HEATED. If you don't believe me, fill a pot to the brim with cool water and heat it. Sorry, but you are really starting to get to me. Al off to cool down... >>> Liquid does expand when heated. This is high school physics. That's why >> hot [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> WARNING!!! Budd, Let me apologize for the last post. I think I just misunderstood your reply. What I think you were saying is air ALSO expands. Not that liquid does not expand. Sorry, please except my apology, Al Cooled off now.... I accept and allow me to apologize for a post I just sent to the other reply. -- Budd Cochran > >>> Liquid does expand when heated. This is high school physics. That's why > >> hot [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Al Cooled off now.... Well, Al, you got to me a long time ago, but I decided to remain peacable. And the water rises due to convection currents. Any expansion is negligible. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. > >> Liquid does expand when heated. This is high school physics. That's why > > hot [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Al off to cool down... . . <inline> ========== ========== "Marsh Monster" wrote in message: When air is left in the system......... there is NO WAY IN HELL it will EVER warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing......especially being as the bearing is already riding on fingers. a question........... if the air COULD....expand due to heat and apply the bearing..... then why isn't the fluid expanding and applying the bearing???????? air compress's brake fluid DOES NOT ~:~ Marsh ~:~ ========== ========== mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) replied: Air expands when heated, most fluids do not . . or have you forgotten how a hot air balloon works ( generally taught by the time you get to the third grade). SignatureBudd Cochran ============= ============= Budd, you have not ceased to amaze me at your ability to prove yourself wrong without even suspecting you're doing it. (quoting you) "Air expands when heated, most fluids do not" lmao 1) i did not say air would not expand when heated. i DID say it compress's i also DID say that brake fluid would not compress. (please take note...there will be a quiz) 2) i see you stated in open forum that... (and i do quote) "most fluids do not" expand. could YOU...... maybe..... possibly.... hopefully... pull out of yer arse..... jest one fluid that DOES expand when heated, maybe one that applies to this thread.....?? go ahead...jest one.. i dare you.... NO DAMNITT.....not engine coolant!!! rotflmao @ budd 3) as previously stated, I AM aware that hot air expands.....(jest look what you've done to this thread with all yers)...and I am aware of it's effects on balloons, though I am not sure I learned it in third grade. 4) I feel sure that you have'nt mastered the concept of hydraulic brake and clutch systems yet......something that is learned in the 1st or 2nd year of apprenticeship as an auto tech...... rotflmao @ the small eng. tech / heav. trk tech. ~:~ MarshMonster ~eats nibbles on a cotterpin and chase's it down with some gear oil~ Go back to the third grade and stay awake this time. Or did you even get that far? -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. . . <inline> ========== ========== "Marsh Monster" wrote in message: When air is left in the system......... there is NO WAY IN HELL it will EVER warm up and expand causing the fingers to ride the bearing......especially being as the bearing is already riding on fingers. a question........... if the air COULD....expand due to heat and apply the bearing..... then why isn't the fluid expanding and applying the bearing???????? air compress's brake fluid DOES NOT ~:~ Marsh ~:~ ========== ========== mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) replied: Air expands when heated, most fluids do not . . or have you forgotten how a hot air balloon works ( generally taught by the time you get to the third grade). -- Budd Cochran ============= ============= Budd, you have not ceased to amaze me at your ability to prove yourself wrong without even suspecting you're doing it. (quoting you) "Air expands when heated, most fluids do not" lmao 1) i did not say air would not expand when heated. i DID say it compress's i also DID say that brake fluid would not compress. (please take note...there will be a quiz) 2) i see you stated in open forum that... (and i do quote) "most fluids do not" expand. could YOU...... maybe..... possibly.... hopefully... pull out of yer arse..... jest one fluid that DOES expand when heated, maybe one that applies to this thread.....?? go ahead...jest one.. i dare you.... NO DAMNITT.....not engine coolant!!! rotflmao @ budd 3) as previously stated, I AM aware that hot air expands.....(jest look what you've done to this thread with all yers)...and I am aware of it's effects on balloons, though I am not sure I learned it in third grade. 4) I feel sure that you have'nt mastered the concept of hydraulic brake and clutch systems yet......something that is learned in the 1st or 2nd year of apprenticeship as an auto tech...... rotflmao @ the small eng. tech / heav. trk tech. ~:~ MarshMonster ~eats nibbles on a cotterpin and chase's it down with some gear oil~ . . <inline> ======== ======== mr-d150@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) wrote in message: Air expands when heated, most fluids do not . . SignatureBudd Cochran ============= ============= Budd, Get a couple of them empty MorganDavid bottles you have chunked out the back door......... Go down to the local hardyware store and buy some corks to plug em up with....... Then..... cork up bout a dozen empty ones...... Then.... fill up bout a dozen of them with bout a dozen different fluids......preferably anything automotive in nature, being as this is an automotive forum............now cork em up..... no air.... Then...... put all 2 dozen in yer oven and cut that sucker on to 400 degrees for bout 2 or 3 hours........ Then..... come on back here and post how many of the empty ones and how many of the fluid filled ones still had the corks in them.... also......... jest fer giggles....while yer wait'n on those scientific proofs in yer oven....... Fill a Budwieser bottle all the way to the top with a fluid.....any fluid will do.... holding that sucker in one hand ......... very sharply and very firmly slap the palm of yer hand down on the opening.....sealing it with a downward thrust...... after yuh clean the sheet out yer pants........ try it with an air filled bottle. post the results...... the ones in direct conflict with your above statement. ~:~ MarshMonster ~would suggest you do that last test outside~ > None. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > left in the system the air can warm up and expand causing the fingers to > ride the bearing. Not likely since there is no closed end to allow pressure to build. Once the master cylinder is in the retracted position the entire system is open to the reservoir, any expansion of the fluid or entrapped air will merely push that volume of fluid back into the reservoir. When the clutch pedal is slightly depressed, the piston covers the MC port to prevent pressure from back feeding into the reservoir. > Once the master cylinder is in the retracted position the entire system is > open to the reservoir, any expansion of the fluid or entrapped air will > merely push that volume of fluid back into the reservoir. When the clutch > pedal is slightly depressed, the piston covers the MC port to prevent > pressure from back feeding into the reservoir. John has described exactly why there is a problem (and there should be with air in the system). If for whatever reason (and there are many reasons between design and real life) the air does NOT travel back the the master cylinder, it will be trapped when the MC travels past the port. If the air is trapped, it doesn't matter where it is in the system, it will have a negative effect on clutch operation. Given the variation of designs, from automotive to industrial, air in a hydraulic system can have a negative effect in almost any phase of operation, depending on the system. As such, we can now debate what amount of air, if that air has more or less of an effect than the preload spring, if the preload spring is there or not, and a myriad of other variables that can occur. But one irrevocable fact remains: Air isn't supposed to be in the system. So whether you think you are a clutch expert from the swamp, a wanna be technician named after a cheap cut of beef, or simply an experienced technician, you have to bleed the system. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> None. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > pedal is slightly depressed, the piston covers the MC port to prevent > pressure from back feeding into the reservoir. >> Once the master cylinder is in the retracted position the entire system >> is open to the reservoir, any expansion of the fluid or entrapped air [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the air is trapped, it doesn't matter where it is in the system, it will > have a negative effect on clutch operation. So what? My comments were in rebuttal to Budd's claim that trapped air would expand with heat and cause added pressure on the TO bearing (it won't) and in typical fashion you go into a diatribe on an unrelated side effect of air entrapment. >>> None. >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> clutch pedal is slightly depressed, the piston covers the MC port to >> prevent pressure from back feeding into the reservoir. And in typical fashion you reply at length to a post where I basically agree with you. Whatever. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >>> Once the master cylinder is in the retracted position the entire system >>> is open to the reservoir, any expansion of the fluid or entrapped air [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>> clutch pedal is slightly depressed, the piston covers the MC port to >>> prevent pressure from back feeding into the reservoir. > And in typical fashion you reply at length to a post where I basically > agree with you. > > Whatever. Oh? If you agree with me in my disagreement with Budd why did you make this statement on 10/28 that agrees with Budd? An improperly bled system has air in it. Air (any gas, be it air, or fluid vapor) can expand and contract due to temperature, and thus can allpy (sic) a small amount of pressure over designed pressure to the throwout bearing." Typical flip-flop. > An improperly bled system has air in it. Air (any gas, be it air, or fluid > vapor) can expand and contract due to temperature, and thus can allpy > (sic) a > small amount of pressure over designed pressure to the throwout bearing." Do you disagree that an improprerly bled system is working improperly? Do you have proof that an improperly bled system cannot apply more pressure to a (in this case) static TO bearing? Do you know EVERY possible situation, problem, result, solution to a hydraulic system? If not, maybe its time to sit back and accept that weird things do happen. Typical whining from you. Time to shut up, like you had been for a couple of months. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. >> And in typical fashion you reply at length to a post where I basically >> agree with you. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Typical flip-flop. > > An improperly bled system has air in it. Air (any gas, be it air, or fluid > > vapor) can expand and contract due to temperature, and thus can allpy [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you have proof that an improperly bled system cannot apply more pressure to > a (in this case) static TO bearing? Do you have proof that it can? As you both know and are counting on, it is impossible to prove a negative but since you seem to be now making the claim that it can happen (a positive), how about backing it up. > Do you know EVERY possible situation, problem, result, solution to a > hydraulic system? Resorting to the law of infinite possibilities now, are we? I must say Max, you do make me laugh. > If not, maybe its time to sit back and accept that weird things do happen. If the probability is near zero, then counting it is nothing more than ignorance and paranoia. If you follow this bullshit reasoning, how do you begin any repairs? After all, there could be millions of reasons why that trans won't shift so how would you ever start? The real answer is that you don't really buy this crap either. You will just spin to any level to not have to admit to being wrong. Like I said, you do make me laugh. > Typical whining from you. Time to shut up, like you had been for a couple of > months. Perhaps you should follow your own advice every now and then. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> Do you disagree that an improprerly bled system is working improperly? Do >> you have proof that an improperly bled system cannot apply more pressure [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > claim > that it can happen (a positive), how about backing it up. Both Budd and I have seen cases where a hydraulic clutch system has applied the TO bearing due to an improperly bled system. I've seen cases where the master cylinder pushed air into the system, the slave cylinder sucked air int othe system, and where they both leaked. You deny that these systems undergo reality based events by claiming what we've seen can't possibly happen. You made the claim that its impossible, back it up. We've both merely suggested that odd things can happen despite what the sytem design may allow or safeguard against. I don't have proof of many things that I've seen, because I didn't sit there and say, "a group of jackasses will ask me about this in the future, I better take pics, put arrows and circles on them, document it, have it notorized, and hermetically seal it so it'll be fresh when I pull it out of the file cabinet." >> Do you know EVERY possible situation, problem, result, solution to a >> hydraulic system? > > Resorting to the law of infinite possibilities now, are we? I must say > Max, > you do make me laugh. Resortign to it? Hell, NATURE does it all the time, as do mechanical things. I've seen things happen that I cannot figure out why a certain problem caused it. I just know they are broken, so I fix it, and the odd event goes away. Sadly, you seem to not have anywhere near the experience that a bunch of us do, so you don't understand how strange some problems are, and why those problems cause really odd things to happen. Thats sad, because you liek to come off like you know all the possible problems, symptoms or solutions to any given situation. And like most humans, there is no way you could, you just don't want to admit it. In this case, where you think you know all there is to know about hydraulic systems on vehicles, I know for sure you've never seen or tried to bleed a set of Kelsey-Hayes four piston calipers on an A-body Mopar. If you had, you'd know that trapped air sometimes NEVER finds its way out. And yes, there is a reason for it. But hey, feel free to think that there are no problems beyond what the text book and the FSM describe. SignatureMax Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life. > >> Do you disagree that an improprerly bled system is working improperly? Do > >> you have proof that an improperly bled system cannot apply more pressure [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > them, document it, have it notorized, and hermetically seal it so it'll be > fresh when I pull it out of the file cabinet." Is that what we did wrong, not documenting every little fuse replacement we ever did? To Tom, that requires that I ask the question . . .did you document every day you worked as a technician? > >> Do you know EVERY possible situation, problem, result, solution to a > >> hydraulic system? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > any given situation. And like most humans, there is no way you could, you > just don't want to admit it. That's why there are groups like this, so that many hundreds of people, with differing experiences can share and learn from others. > In this case, where you think you know all there is to know about hydraulic > systems on vehicles, I know for sure you've never seen or tried to bleed a > set of Kelsey-Hayes four piston calipers on an A-body Mopar. If you had, > you'd know that trapped air sometimes NEVER finds its way out. And yes, > there is a reason for it. (Stifled scream) No, no, a thousand times no . . .I'd rather be crucified, splinters under the nails . . . .anything but that . . . . ( runs off in total panic, screaming). > But hey, feel free to think that there are no problems beyond what the text > book and the FSM describe. Agreed. Personally, I always enjoyed sorting out the non-clinical problems as they challenged me to think outside the box. > -- > Max > > Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and > he is warm for the rest of his life. Budd > >> Do you disagree that an improprerly bled system is working improperly? Do > >> you have proof that an improperly bled system cannot apply more pressure [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Both Budd and I have seen cases where a hydraulic clutch system has applied > the TO bearing due to an improperly bled system. No, you didn't. You saw a system that had other problems causing the TO bearing to be applied due to expansion of the air in the system. > I've seen cases where the > master cylinder pushed air into the system, the slave cylinder sucked air > int othe system, and where they both leaked. So what? Who said that could not happen and what does it have to do with air alone causing the TO bearing to be applied? > You deny that these systems > undergo reality based events by claiming what we've seen can't possibly > happen. That is in no way what I said, spinmaster. I said that air in the system ALONE could not cause the TO to be applied. > You made the claim that its impossible, back it up. Simple physics Maxi such as equal and opposit reactions. The fluid or air in the system cannot apply pressure to slave unless it can apply and maintain equal pressure to the master and in an open system, it can't. > We've both merely suggested that odd things can happen despite what the sytem design > may allow or safeguard against. Could you possibly backspin any faster? > I don't have proof of many things that I've > seen, because I didn't sit there and say, "a group of jackasses will ask me > about this in the future, I better take pics, put arrows and circles on > them, document it, have it notorized, and hermetically seal it so it'll be > fresh when I pull it out of the file cabinet." Oh, LOL, I see, the people that don't agree with you are just a group of jackasses. What vehicles did you see this happen to and how did you fix them? > >> Do you know EVERY possible situation, problem, result, solution to a > >> hydraulic system? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > caused it. I just know they are broken, so I fix it, and the odd event goes > away. If you don't know what caused it, then how exactly did you fix it? > Sadly, you seem to not have anywhere near the experience that a bunch of us > do, so you don't understand how strange some problems are, and why those > problems cause really odd things to happen. Thats sad, because you liek to > come off like you know all the possible problems, symptoms or solutions to > any given situation. And like most humans, there is no way you could, you > just don't want to admit it. Get real Max, the only one here afraid to admit to error or not knowing between us is you. I never claimed to know everything but in this case, I do know that air in the system cannot |
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