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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / December 2005

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Mileage Question

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azwiley1 - 06 Dec 2005 02:35 GMT
Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do you
average, inner city and highway?
Max Dodge - 06 Dec 2005 03:06 GMT
2000, QC, 4x4 AT, LWB, I post 13-14mpg avg around town, my over the road avg
is 19.5, indicating about 22mpg while at cruise speeds of 65-70mph

Signature

Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

> Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
> you average, inner city and highway?
Tom Lawrence - 06 Dec 2005 03:32 GMT
> Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
> you average, inner city and highway?

I get about 125% of a Chebbie 1/2-ton, while making about 2.5x the power,
and weighing about 50% more  :)

About 19MPG in mixed (50/50) driving...  21 on straight highway runs.  23 if
I keep it in the right lane at 55.  15-16 if I'm playing "make the rice
rockets look even sillier".
TheSnoMan - 06 Dec 2005 14:37 GMT
>>Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
>>you average, inner city and highway?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I keep it in the right lane at 55.  15-16 if I'm playing "make the rice
> rockets look even sillier".

Yeah right on the 2.5 x power. If the gas truck is geared properly, it
will pull just about as much as a oil burner will. It is all in the
gearing. Deisel are usually geared correct to match their narrow
power/RPM range to the load while gas truck are rarely geared properly.
I have hualed a 13k loaded equipment trailer a few time with my K3500
with not problems or big fuss. Heck 30 years ago I was hualing 23k grain
trailers 20 miles to a mill at harvest time before there was even the
dream of a CTD dodge with a 72 GMC 3/4 ton 4wd with a 350, a 4 speed and
4.10 axle ratios and NEVER had a problem getting the load moving or
keeping it moving. It was traction limited in 2wd first/granny gear even
when loaded and would frequently leave marks into the surface of the
county roads when starting out because on the high torque loads placed
are contact point of tire to road. I could even pull the loads out of
the field in 4 lo most of the time if the ground was not too soft and
again it was traction limited not power limited. A freind pulled too
with a F250 and a 351 with 3.54 axles and a automatic but he would stall
out with a load in soft ground and not even be able to spin the tires
even in low range. It was no match for my old GMC in pulling power. That
truck was one of the last of the beasts before emmissions set in big
time. I used to pull a load 4 horse trailer with it a lot too and never
had any problem hold speed in 4th on any interstate hill and got 10 to
11 MPG doing it too. One time when I was redoing a dam I hauled 2ea 5k
cement drain pipes at once on a equipment float with a total weight of
close to 15k 60 miles on the interstate atspeed limit without any real
problems. You just need the gears and the proper drive line, not a oil
burner to move a lot of weight.

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-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

Roy - 06 Dec 2005 16:16 GMT
>>>Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
>>>you average, inner city and highway?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> hualed a 13k loaded equipment trailer a few time with my K3500 with not
> problems or big fuss. Heck 30 years ago

Give us a break with the 30 year old stuff. Get current will ya.
Max Dodge - 06 Dec 2005 21:39 GMT
> Yeah right on the 2.5 x power. If the gas truck is geared properly, it
> will pull just about as much as a oil burner will.

You just don't get it do you? First, I doubt you know anythign about Tom's
truck. Second, gearing will elt you do about anything, at a sacrifice of
something else. To get a gasser to pull what a diesel will, you can lower
the gearing, at the sacrifice of top end speed and fuel mileage.

> Deisel are usually geared correct to match their narrow power/RPM range to
> the load while gas truck are rarely geared properly.

More bullshit. Factory gearing almost always allows an engine to run at
1500-2500RPM while crusing at highway speeds in top gear. Try doing the
math.

> I have hualed a 13k loaded equipment trailer a few time with my K3500 with
> not problems or big fuss.

Think how much easier it would have been with a diesel. Oh... sorry... thats
right, you don't know that since you've never owned one.

> Heck 30 years ago I was hualing 23k grain trailers 20 miles to a mill at
> harvest time before there was even the dream of a CTD dodge

Actually, I'll bet there was a dream of a CTD Dodge, since the late 70's was
when Dodge put a small diesel in the pickups to begin with.

> with a 72 GMC 3/4 ton 4wd with a 350, a 4 speed and 4.10 axle ratios and
> NEVER had a problem getting the load moving or keeping it moving.

Never said you had a problem, but wouldn't it be nice to double or triple
your fuel mileage while doing all that work?

> It was traction limited in 2wd first/granny gear even when loaded and
> would frequently leave marks into the surface of the county roads when
> starting out because on the high torque loads placed are contact point of
> tire to road.

Which is fancied up lack of knowledge speak for: Couldn't get enough
traction to move the load at high RPM, and don't have enough power at low
RPM to turn the tires.

> truck was one of the last of the beasts before emmissions set in big time.

Yup, it was all because of emissions that power went away.....

> I used to pull a load 4 horse trailer with it a lot too and never had any
> problem hold speed in 4th on any interstate hill and got 10 to 11 MPG
> doing it too.

Wow, all of 10-11 MPG? I get 25MPG at 60MPH pulling a 6000lb trailer. When I
pull in the 4wd, I don't worry about using more fuel, because it doesn't.

> One time when I was redoing a dam I hauled 2ea 5k cement drain pipes at
> once on a equipment float with a total weight of close to 15k 60 miles on
> the interstate atspeed limit without any real problems. You just need the
> gears and the proper drive line, not a oil burner to move a lot of weight.

You aren't getting this. At all. Its FUEL EFFICIENCY that we like. Plus,
some of what you describe shows exactly how limited you are with a gasoline
engine in a hauling truck.

Increasing sales of diesel powered trucks of all brands don't lie.

Signature

Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>>Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
>>>you average, inner city and highway?
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> atspeed limit without any real problems. You just need the gears and the
> proper drive line, not a oil burner to move a lot of weight.
Tom Lawrence - 06 Dec 2005 22:25 GMT
> Yeah right on the 2.5 x power.

Yeah....  right.  I figure about 250HP at the crank for a typical 1/2-ton
V8.  I'm easily at 625HP at the flywheel, so by my math, that's two and a
half times more.

> If the gas truck is geared properly, it will pull just about as much as a
> oil burner will.

So will a golf cart....  but it's gonna be REEEAAAALLLLLYYYYYY
SSSSSLLLLLOOOOOWWWWW

> It is all in the gearing.

Nope... it's all in the horsepower.  You want to move a load of <X> lbs. at
<Y> speed, you need <Z> HP.  Period.

> I have hualed a 13k loaded equipment trailer a few time with my K3500

Good for you....  what was your mileage while doing that?

> with not problems or big fuss. Heck 30 years ago I was hualing 23k grain
> trailers 20 miles to a mill at harvest time before there was even the
> dream of a CTD

30 years ago, I was crapping in a diaper...  things change.

> problems. You just need the gears and the proper drive line, not a oil
> burner to move a lot of weight.

Go find me an over-the-road commercial truck that pulls 60-80K and runs on
gasoline.  I'll wait here...
Christopher  Thompson - 06 Dec 2005 23:20 GMT
> > Yeah right on the 2.5 x power.
>
> Yeah....  right.  I figure about 250HP at the crank for a typical 1/2-ton
> V8.  I'm easily at 625HP at the flywheel, so by my math, that's two and a
> half times more.

sheesh and what's the torque?

> > If the gas truck is geared properly, it will pull just about as much as a
> > oil burner will.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Go find me an over-the-road commercial truck that pulls 60-80K and runs on
> gasoline.  I'll wait here...
Tom Lawrence - 07 Dec 2005 00:49 GMT
> sheesh and what's the torque?

Flywheel?  I dunno...  a little over 1100 at the wheels on the dyno, but
that was an inertial dyno.  A load dyno would probably show more.

Those poor stock U-joints....  :(
Christopher  Thompson - 07 Dec 2005 02:12 GMT
> > sheesh and what's the torque?
>
> Flywheel?  I dunno...  a little over 1100 at the wheels on the dyno, but
> that was an inertial dyno.  A load dyno would probably show more.
>
> Those poor stock U-joints....  :(

they havent broke yet?  *grin*
Matthew Warren - 07 Dec 2005 00:54 GMT
>> Yeah right on the 2.5 x power.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Nope... it's all in the horsepower.  You want to move a load of <X> lbs.
> at <Y> speed, you need <Z> HP.  Period.

It's actually all about the torque.  Horsepower doesn't really do anything;
just a mathmatical expression of Torque:RPM relationship.  Torque is the
force that gets you moving, spins your tires, wins races, tugs the 80k
trailer, etc.  That's why a 250hp tractor trailer will do so much more than
a 250hp rice burner.
azwiley1 - 07 Dec 2005 03:14 GMT
God Damn, ask a simple question about mileage and this is what I get!  Glad
to see the group is still as dysphunctional as ever!  <VBFG>

>>> Yeah right on the 2.5 x power.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> tugs the 80k trailer, etc.  That's why a 250hp tractor trailer will do so
> much more than a 250hp rice burner.
Tom Lawrence - 07 Dec 2005 05:19 GMT
> God Damn, ask a simple question about mileage and this is what I get!
> Glad to see the group is still as dysphunctional as ever!  <VBFG>

Well...  I _DID_ at least answer your question before making a left onto
tangent boulevard...  :)
Tom Lawrence - 07 Dec 2005 05:18 GMT
> It's actually all about the torque.  Horsepower doesn't really do
> anything; just a mathmatical expression of Torque:RPM relationship.

<sigh>  I really do get tired of explaining this....  but oh, what the
hell...

Okay....  put a lug wrench on your wheel's lug nut.  Stand on the wrench (so
you're tightening it).  Lotta torque you're applying to the lug nut, right?
Did it move?  Hmmm....  thought it was all about the torque?

> Torque is the force

Exactly...  it's a FORCE.  Just like you pushing on the side of your house.
You're applying a force.  The house isn't moving, so you're accomplishing no
work.

> that gets you moving, spins your tires, wins races, tugs the 80k trailer,
> etc.  That's why a 250hp tractor trailer will do so much more than a 250hp
> rice burner.

Really?  I bet the 250HP ricer will whip up on that 250HP semi on a drag
strip.  Why?  Better power (there's that HP thing again) to weight ratio.

To further illustrate that it's not "all about the torque"...  a Formula 1
racecar's engine makes about 900HP, yet have a torque peak of somewhere
around 270ft.lbs.  A 4.7L V8 in a Ram makes more torque than that.  So,
let's put the 4.7L in the F1 car, and it'll go even faster, right?
Matthew Warren - 07 Dec 2005 23:07 GMT
>> It's actually all about the torque.  Horsepower doesn't really do
>> anything; just a mathmatical expression of Torque:RPM relationship.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>this discussion is kind of like saying that cold doesn't exist, it's just
>an absence of heat... but, anyway...
Tom Lawrence - 08 Dec 2005 01:01 GMT
>accomplishing the task.  Try to get motion with out force.  try to turn
>that lug nut in some direction without applyuing any force.  I know that
>this discussion is kind of like saying that cold doesn't exist, it's just
>an absence of heat... but, anyway...

Yeah....  pretty much  :)

But you make a perfect point:  torque without motion is useless.  Motion,
without any force behind it (if such a state could exist), is equally as
useless.  They're both components of power.  So back to my original
statement - you want to sustain a given weight at a given speed - you need a
certain amount of power to do so.  How you arrive at that power output
doesn't matter.

Let's arbitrarily say you want to move 10,000lbs at 30MPH.  After factoring
in drag, inertia, etc. etc., you conclude you need 175HP to do that.  You
may produce that power with an engine putting out 600ft.lbs. of torque,
turning at ~1500RPM, or an engine putting out 200ft.lbs. of torque, turning
at ~4600RPM.

Ever caclulate, or seen mention of, a drag car's horsepower based on trap
speed and weight?  Same principle.  You can't calculate torque that way,
because you don't know the RPM.
Matthew Warren - 08 Dec 2005 05:43 GMT
> >accomplishing the task.  Try to get motion with out force.  try to turn
> >that lug nut in some direction without applyuing any force.  I know that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> without any force behind it (if such a state could exist), is equally as
> useless.

Actually, these are very different statements, because force (torque in this
case) can exist without producing movement, as in our lug wrench scenario,
when it is insufficient to produce work.  But work can never exist without
force, because there has to be something creating the motion over
time/distance to be measured.

>They're both components of power.  So back to my original statement - you
>want to sustain a given weight at a given speed - you need a certain amount
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> speed and weight?  Same principle.  You can't calculate torque that way,
> because you don't know the RPM.

That's because torque isn't calculated, it's measured.  Point being that HP
is a function of torque... it isn't a force, it isn't doing anything, it is
just an expression of how much is being done by the forces in play... almost
like a comentator to a ball game, they're not involved in the playing of the
game, but they are necessary in helping know what is going on...sort of...
Nosey - 08 Dec 2005 07:10 GMT
>> It's actually all about the torque.  Horsepower doesn't really do
>> anything; just a mathmatical expression of Torque:RPM relationship.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the lug nut, right? Did it move?  Hmmm....  thought it was all about
> the torque?

I agree with Matthew. It is all about torque. Torque is NOT limited to
static measurements. Torque can be applied in motion. Being a mechanic I
sure hope you know what a running torque is. Horsepower cannot be measured
without motion but torque can. Horsepower cannot be measured at all without
torque.

How do you figure out horsepower numbers? It's torque x rpm / 5252.
Horsepower is nothing more than an expression of torque mathematically
diluted by rpm. No matter what engine you measure, the torque rating is the
basis of the hp measurement. Horsepower will *always* be lower than torque
below 5252 rpm and *always* be higher than torque above 5252 rpm. Horsepower
is just a marketing gimmick dreamed up in the 1800s by James Watt to sell
steam engines. And you are still buying it.

Torque is the key to acceleration. Acceleration is expressed as g force. The
g force potential can be figured for any vehicle by knowing the thrust and
weight of the vehicle. You can figure out what the thrust is by knowing the
torque output of the engine, the transmission and rear gearing, and tire
diameter. I can explain this in more detail if you'd like me to.

>> Torque is the force
>
> Exactly...  it's a FORCE.  Just like you pushing on the side of your
> house. You're applying a force.  The house isn't moving, so you're
> accomplishing no work.

Torque can measured as both static and dynamic forces.

>> that gets you moving, spins your tires, wins races, tugs the 80k
>> trailer, etc.  That's why a 250hp tractor trailer will do so much
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> drag strip.  Why?  Better power (there's that HP thing again) to
> weight ratio.

That power to weight ratio you speak of is actually a thrust to weight
ratio. Weight and driveline efficiency is the key to this race.

> To further illustrate that it's not "all about the torque"...  a
> Formula 1 racecar's engine makes about 900HP, yet have a torque peak
> of somewhere around 270ft.lbs.  A 4.7L V8 in a Ram makes more torque
> than that.  So, let's put the 4.7L in the F1 car, and it'll go even
> faster, right?

Peak ratings aren't much of a factor here. F1 engines must be strong
throughout the entire rpm range, up to 18,000 rpm. If the 4.7L V8 can
produce more than 270 lbs/ft of torque through 18,000 rpm, then yes, it
would be faster.

Comments from the last F1 race winner's engine team on torque and
acceleration:

http://www.renaultf1.com/en/season/australia/index.php?news=tcm:3-33758
Fernando Alonso's engine engineer Remi Taffin explains how to get the best
out of the RS25 V10 in Australia.
"Melbourne is a tough circuit for engines: its succession of straights
broken up by slow corners mean good torque is more important than peak power
in order to accelerate out of the slow and medium-speed corners."

http://www.renaultf1.com/en/season/canada/index.php?news=tcm:3-36828
Remi Taffin, Engine Race Engineer.
"A torquey engine is always a plus-point in Canada, as it allows the car to
launch out of the slow corners when accompanied by good traction. Gear
ratios must also be studied carefully in order to be able to optimise the
torque curve of the V10 around the lap."
Tom Lawrence - 08 Dec 2005 12:11 GMT
> I agree with Matthew. It is all about torque.

The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH, requires
z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with low RPMs, or
little torque and lotsa RPM, matters not.
Max Dodge - 08 Dec 2005 12:41 GMT
> The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH,
> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with low
> RPMs, or little torque and lotsa RPM, matters not.

Somehow, people are missing the fact that HP is the force with motion, which
indicates work done, or capable of being done.. I'll readily agree that its
an arbitrary unit, but that unit comes from a finite formula that can have
the same result despite different numbers being plugged in.

I think the quotes from the F1 guys are comical. Both refer to specific
tracks... wonder what they say about other tracks where wide open running
dictates that HP is the key?

Also comical is the statement that no matter what engine you are looking at,
torque is the basis of the hp rating. No quite true. Many dynos measure kW,
which can be converted directly to HP. Most industrial engines have a kW
rating, and most overseas diesel manufacturers, especially the Europeans,
use kW ratings without hp being mentioned until it hits the US market.

Signature

Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>> I agree with Matthew. It is all about torque.
>
> The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH,
> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with low
> RPMs, or little torque and lotsa RPM, matters not.
Mike Simmons - 08 Dec 2005 13:43 GMT
>> The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH,
>> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with low
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Europeans, use kW ratings without hp being mentioned until it hits the US
> market.

HP and Kw are the same thing, just different ways of expressing the ability
to perform work over time..

Mike

>>> I agree with Matthew. It is all about torque.
>>
>> The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH,
>> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with low
>> RPMs, or little torque and lotsa RPM, matters not.
Max Dodge - 08 Dec 2005 22:41 GMT
> HP and Kw are the same thing, just different ways of expressing the
> ability to perform work over time..

The same, but different...... which was the point, right? Basically means an
engine can be rated without measuring torque.

Signature

Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>> The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH,
>>> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with low
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with low
>>> RPMs, or little torque and lotsa RPM, matters not.
Nosey - 08 Dec 2005 20:25 GMT
>> The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH,
>> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> finite formula that can have the same result despite different
> numbers being plugged in.

Yes, and most people don't know that rpm has just as much to do with
horsepower ratings as anything else. They throw around horsepower numbers
like they mean something without the rpm. How many times have you heard
someone brag about the horsepower their engine makes? Want to shut them up?
Ask them what rpm that horsepower occurs at. Most often, they don't even
know. So what good is that number? Horsepower tells you nothing of the
engine's performance without knowing the rpm.

> I think the quotes from the F1 guys are comical. Both refer to
> specific tracks... wonder what they say about other tracks where wide
> open running dictates that HP is the key?

I'm glad you got a chuckle from the F1 guys. I do think they are better
engineers than comics though. I don't know what they say about the other
tracks. If you find out, let us know. Pick anyone to quote if you like, but
please use credible sources. Don't quote Joe Bling saying that the 22's that
he put on his Civic make 500 horsepower so it now goes 300 mph in the
straights. I will consider any comments from any credible source that says a
high horsepower number is more important than torque.

> Also comical is the statement that no matter what engine you are
> looking at, torque is the basis of the hp rating. No quite true. Many
> dynos measure kW, which can be converted directly to HP. Most
> industrial engines have a kW rating, and most overseas diesel
> manufacturers, especially the Europeans, use kW ratings without hp
> being mentioned until it hits the US market.

Those dynos still measure the engine's torque and then convert it to kW.
Also, I said "no matter what engine" and I should not have. I didn't intend
that to include jet engines, nuclear power plants, or other exotics.
Signature

Ken

8><-----

Max Dodge - 08 Dec 2005 23:01 GMT
> Yes, and most people don't know that rpm has just as much to do with
> horsepower ratings as anything else. They throw around horsepower numbers
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> even know. So what good is that number? Horsepower tells you nothing of
> the engine's performance without knowing the rpm.

Sorta works the same for Torque, thats why they usually pair each one with
an RPM.

> I'm glad you got a chuckle from the F1 guys. I do think they are better
> engineers than comics though. I don't know what they say about the other
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in the straights. I will consider any comments from any credible source
> that says a high horsepower number is more important than torque.

No one claimed one was more important than the other except you. Fact is,
the two cannot be separated, nor can they happen without RPM and get
anything done.

> Those dynos still measure the engine's torque and then convert it to kW.
> Also, I said "no matter what engine" and I should not have. I didn't
> intend that to include jet engines, nuclear power plants, or other
> exotics.

Those dynos measure output, be it torque or kW. Hydrualic dynos measure
torque, electric dynos measure kW output.

Signature

Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>> The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH,
>>> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> intend that to include jet engines, nuclear power plants, or other
> exotics.
Tom Lawrence - 09 Dec 2005 00:17 GMT
> Those dynos still measure the engine's torque

Inertial dynos (Dynojet, for example) don't...  they measure power (be it HP
or KW), and interpret torque based on engine RPM.  This is why a lot of
times, diesel guys only get HP ratings from their dyno runs - becuase they
don't feel like setting up the cumbersome little optical sensor to read RPM
from the engine.
Nosey - 09 Dec 2005 18:10 GMT
>> Those dynos still measure the engine's torque
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> runs - becuase they don't feel like setting up the cumbersome little
> optical sensor to read RPM from the engine.

The Dynojet measures horsepower, but it has no idea what the rpm is?
Please explain how you can tell the hosepower without knowing the rpm.

I saw your dyno sheets. Quite impressive. What happened at 2650 rpm on sheet
2?

I'm not ignoring the other questions, I just don't have time to answer them
right now.
Signature

Ken

Tom Lawrence - 09 Dec 2005 19:01 GMT
> The Dynojet measures horsepower, but it has no idea what the rpm is?
> Please explain how you can tell the hosepower without knowing the rpm.

Stop thinking that HP is _ONLY_ "torque times RPM divided by 5252".  HP is a
measure of work done over time.  Work is the moving of a load over a
distance.  The dynojet knows the load (weight of the drum).  It knows the
distance the load is moved (turned).  It knows the time between samples.
Work done over time is power.  It's a simple calculation.  1 HP equals
33,000 ft.lbs. of work per minute, or 550 ft.lbs. of work per second  A foot
pound is the energy required to move 1 pound 1 foot.

> I saw your dyno sheets. Quite impressive. What happened at 2650 rpm on
> sheet 2?

I dunno...  maybe some wheelspin/slippage?  Those are also old dyno sheets,
before I put on twin turbos.  I have to take the outer rear tires off to fit
the truck on the dyno, so my contact patch goes down by 50%  :)
Nosey - 12 Dec 2005 01:56 GMT
This just wasn't making any sense to me so I read it again.

> Inertial dynos (Dynojet, for example) don't...  they measure power
> (be it HP or KW), and interpret torque based on engine RPM.

I missed this part the first time around. I understand what you said now.
Signature

Ken

Nosey - 08 Dec 2005 20:20 GMT
>> I agree with Matthew. It is all about torque.
>
> The original statement was that to move a load of x lbs. at y MPH,
> requires z HP.  However that HP is created, be it lotsa torque with
> low RPMs, or little torque and lotsa RPM, matters not.

That is the point that I disagree with. A horsepower number does not
describe an engine's ability the same at different rpms. 100 horsepower at
1,000 rpm is 10 times stronger than 100 horsepower at 10,000 rpm. 100 lbs/ft
of torque has the same ability no matter what rpm it occurs at.

100 hp @ 1,000 rpm = 525.2 lbs/ft torque
100 hp @ 10,000 rpm = 52.52 lbs/ft torque
Signature

Ken

Max Dodge - 08 Dec 2005 22:54 GMT
> That is the point that I disagree with. A horsepower number does not
> describe an engine's ability the same at different rpms. 100 horsepower at
> 1,000 rpm is 10 times stronger than 100 horsepower at 10,000 rpm. 100
> lbs/ft of torque has the same ability no matter what rpm it occurs at.

Um... no.   100ft lbs at 1000RPM is 19Hp.  100ft lbs at 6000RPM is 114Hp.

If it takes 100ftlbs to turn a shaft, one shaft will turn 6 times as fast,
meaning more work is done. Looks like different abilities to me.

> 100 hp @ 1,000 rpm = 525.2 lbs/ft torque
> 100 hp @ 10,000 rpm = 52.52 lbs/ft torque

Whats this for?

Signature

Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>> I agree with Matthew. It is all about torque.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> 100 hp @ 1,000 rpm = 525.2 lbs/ft torque
> 100 hp @ 10,000 rpm = 52.52 lbs/ft torque
Tom Lawrence - 09 Dec 2005 00:42 GMT
> Um... no.   100ft lbs at 1000RPM is 19Hp.  100ft lbs at 6000RPM is 114Hp.

Yep - and back to my F1 example...   270ft.lbs. at 8000RPM in a 3.0L V10
makes 411HP, where that same 270ft.lbs. at 2800RPM in a 4.7L V8 only makes
144HP.  Which engine's going to move the same amount of weight faster?
Matthew Warren - 09 Dec 2005 03:17 GMT
>> Um... no.   100ft lbs at 1000RPM is 19Hp.  100ft lbs at 6000RPM is 114Hp.
>
> Yep - and back to my F1 example...   270ft.lbs. at 8000RPM in a 3.0L V10
> makes 411HP, where that same 270ft.lbs. at 2800RPM in a 4.7L V8 only makes
> 144HP.  Which engine's going to move the same amount of weight faster?

I'm almost sorry to have started this, if in fact I did.  My only point is
that Torque is the force that turns the shaft.  it doesn't matter how fast
you turn the shaft, it is still torque that is turning it.  At no point does
the force or even the name of the force change into something else, it is
always torque.  HP never turns the shaft it is an expression of the
resulting motion.  You must have torque to produce HP but you do not need HP
(or kW, etc.) to produce torque.  Torque is the force at play and HP is an
expression of the work performed.
Tom Lawrence - 09 Dec 2005 05:06 GMT
> I'm almost sorry to have started this, if in fact I did.

Yep...  it's all your fault  :)

Everything you say about torque is true - I'm not arguing that.  The initial
statement was in reference to someone's claim that (and I'm paraphrasing
here) "the ability to pull [move] a load is all about gearing".  I countered
that, "no - when it comes to moving a load, it's all about HP".  Weights
being equal, the vehicle with the ability to generate more HP will go
faster.

What I WASN'T discussing was the ability to ACCELERATE a load to a certain
speed.  That makes it a much more complicated equation, because then you're
usually talking about starting from a stand-still, which because of the
limitations of modern drivetrains, requires that the engine be able to
produce enough HP to overcome static friction/inertia/etc. (everything that
resists motion and acceleration), at a relatively low RPM.  Since one
component of the HP equation is being limited, torque (the other component)
becomes the deciding factor in being able to overcome those static forces.
This is where gearing, torque curves, etc. etc. come into play.  If we could
eliminate those artificial limitations (let's say we have an infinitely
variable transmission that would let an engine operate at it's peak HP
output all the time), then that little 800HP 3.0L V10 engine would out-pull
a big Cummins 600HP 14L I6 in every conceivable measurement:  60 ft. times,
1/4 mile times, top speed, you name it.  The fact that the V10 would implode
itself before the Cummins reached full operating temperature isn't germane
to this discussion  :^)

Back to my original statement...  the vehicle that produces more horsepower
will be able to move a given load at a faster overall rate than the vehicle
with less HP.

And oh yeah....  my Dodge is better than Larry's Chevy - which is where this
whole thing started in the first place  <grin>
Max Dodge - 09 Dec 2005 05:52 GMT
> Torque is the force at play and HP is an expression of the work performed.

So its not all about torque?

Signature

Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>> Um... no.   100ft lbs at 1000RPM is 19Hp.  100ft lbs at 6000RPM is
>>> 114Hp.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> HP (or kW, etc.) to produce torque.  Torque is the force at play and HP is
> an expression of the work performed.
Nosey - 12 Dec 2005 04:25 GMT
>> That is the point that I disagree with. A horsepower number does not
>> describe an engine's ability the same at different rpms. 100
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Whats this for?

What's this for? It's to show that a horsepower number alone does not
accurately describe the ability an engine has to do work.

You said "If it takes 100ftlbs to turn a shaft, one shaft will turn 6 times
as fast, meaning more work is done."
We'll use that same shaft again comparing the two 100 horsepower engines.

The engine that makes 100 hp @ 1,000 rpm has 525 lbs/ft of torque. That's
plenty of torque to do the job. In fact it can run 5 shafts each requiring
100 lbs/ft of torque all at the same time. The engine that produces 100 hp @
10,000 rpm makes less than 53 lbs/ft of torque. If it takes 100 lbs/ft of
torque to turn the shaft, it will not be able to turn the shaft at all. No
work is being done.

I'll give you another example. Say I'm out shopping for a new push mower. I
get frequent rain and one corner of my back lawn doesn't drain very well.
The lawn is always wet there and the grass grows very fast. My old mower cut
fine everywhere in my lawn, including the high wet grass. It had a good 5
horsepower engine when new but now it's old and uses too much oil. I leave a
trail of smoke behind every pass. I assume any 5 horsepower push mower with
the same size blade will work the exact same way, so that's what I go
shopping for. I want a brand new mower just like my old one, but the old
model is discontinued. I find the same brand mower with the same 21" blade,
a 5hp engine, and rear mounted collection bag. Same thing as the old one
right? Well, no. It looked the same and had all the same advertised
specifications, but it wasn't the same thing. I didn't realize that my old
mower was rated 5 horsepower @ 500 rpm and the new one is 5 horsepower @
1,000 rpm. The grass doesn't really care if it gets whacked by a blade
spinning around at 500 rpm or 1,000 rpm, so the end result should be the
same. It should make tall grass short.
I try out my new mower. I get the front lawn done and it looks very nice.
That 1,000 rpm mower cuts the lawn very cleanly and deposits much more of
the clippings into the bag than my old mower ever did. I'm very happy with
my new mower even though I still don't know about the higher blade speed. I
assume the old engine was getting weak and this new one is more powerful.
Now I go around back. I get three feet into the wet high grass and the mower
stalls. I have to drag it back out of the wet area to get it started again.
I push it another three feet into the wet grass and it stalls again. It
takes me hours longer with this new mower to cut the wet area than it did
with my old mower. 5 horsepower isn't always exactly the same as 5
horsepower. The old mower had twice the torque that my new mower has. The
new mower has twice the blade speed that the old mower had.
Which one gets more work done? If you ask the guy that has to push the mower
through the tall wet grass, it's the old one.

I'm not saying that horsepower ratings are meaningless. I'm only saying that
horsepower ratings are less meaningful without an rpm to go along with them.
Signature

Ken

Max Dodge - 12 Dec 2005 04:38 GMT
>>> 100 hp @ 1,000 rpm = 525.2 lbs/ft torque
>>> 100 hp @ 10,000 rpm = 52.52 lbs/ft torque
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> What's this for? It's to show that a horsepower number alone does not
> accurately describe the ability an engine has to do work.

No kidding, thats why they typically pair it with a torque rating. Note the
word "pair". It means both HP and torque are important. This is the point,
so let me repeat.....

It means both HP and torque are important.

> You said "If it takes 100ftlbs to turn a shaft, one shaft will turn 6
> times as fast, meaning more work is done."
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of torque to turn the shaft, it will not be able to turn the shaft at all.
> No work is being done.

Congrats, you can do the math. You still don't seem to understand that
torque isn't the only thing that needs to be talked about. If it were, we'd
be getting complete tables of torque and RPM.

> I'll give you another example.

No need, I already KNOW how the two work together. YOU were the one that
said torque was everything.

> I'm not saying that horsepower ratings are meaningless. I'm only saying
> that horsepower ratings are less meaningful without an rpm to go along
> with them.

Ok........ 1000ft lbs.

Wow, thats useful......

Get it yet?

Signature

Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>> That is the point that I disagree with. A horsepower number does not
>>> describe an engine's ability the same at different rpms. 100
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> Whats this for?
Nosey - 12 Dec 2005 21:40 GMT
>>>> 100 hp @ 1,000 rpm = 525.2 lbs/ft torque
>>>> 100 hp @ 10,000 rpm = 52.52 lbs/ft torque
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Wow, thats useful......

Yes, it's very useful if you know how to use it.

> Get it yet?

Yes, Max. I get it.
Signature

Ken

FMB - 06 Dec 2005 03:55 GMT
> Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
> you average, inner city and highway?

19.4 MPG or so as I travel about 80% Freeway (68-70mph) and 20% city
(25-55mph, not to mention the times I go 0mph).  The heated seats allow for
an extra .2mpg as I'm not shivering down the road.  I also get 11-12 MPG
when towing my Arctic Fox 24-5N 55-65 mph.

'03 2500
HO
4wd
LB
6sp
Laramie
Big Al - 06 Dec 2005 05:40 GMT
<azwiley1@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:mM6lf.64544$qw.27687@fed1read07...
> > Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
> > you average, inner city and highway?

My 2500, 04, six speed, 4X4 gets 19 to 20 mixed city and slow highway. At 80
it's gets about 14.

Al
Roy - 06 Dec 2005 06:13 GMT
> Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
> you average, inner city and highway?
05 QC 4X4 auto w/4:11 rear, 14.5 city, 19.5 highway at 60mph mt

Roy
Budd Cochran - 06 Dec 2005 06:15 GMT
Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do
you
average, inner city and highway?

Well, it ain't a diesel, but my son is still getting about 21-22 mpg
out of that old 79 318 I had . . . . . . .

And blowin the doors off dem chubbies at the same time.

VBG

Budd
Christopher  Thompson - 06 Dec 2005 16:02 GMT
currently im gettin on average 19.5 on my 05 6 speed. i drive mostly city to
and from work. some highway on off days running errans but not much.

> Hey all you CDT (and other Diesel) owners, what kind of fuel mileage do you
> average, inner city and highway?
 
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