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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / January 2006Fishtailing tow vehicle?
What causes a trailer to fishtail? I was towing a trailer with 2 ric of firewood home the other day, and I couldn't go above 55 miles per hour, the trailer was weaving back and forth so much... I have a dakota quad cab 4.7 4wd 3.55 axle 2001, and a 5x10 flatbed trailer, with 13" tires. What did I do wrong? J. Load towards the front so the tongue has some weight on it, more weight than is behind the trailer axle. Tire pressure should be checked as well.  SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > What causes a trailer to fishtail? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > J. > Load towards the front so the tongue has some weight on it, more weight than > is behind the trailer axle. Tire pressure should be checked as well. I do not think that will fix it, too much load and too little tow vehicle. Try running trailer and rear truck tires at max rated cold pressure. Low pressure car type tires lack in side/sway stability control. Is it a tandum or single axle trailer? If it was a single axle trailer, you were clearly overloaded for the trailer and truck. Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com > I do not think that will fix it, too much load and too little tow vehicle. > Try running trailer and rear truck tires at max rated cold pressure. Low > pressure car type tires lack in side/sway stability control. Is it a > tandum or single axle trailer? If it was a single axle trailer, you were > clearly overloaded for the trailer and truck. Ya know, I'm not really sure where in the hell you get your info. The OP never mentioned any details as to how much wood he had on the trailer. As such, its hard to figure it was overloaded for sure. But lets assume it was. IF it was overloaded, it would drag like it was in mud, and getting to 55MPH would be the issue, not towing in a straight line. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >> Load towards the front so the tongue has some weight on it, more weight >> than is behind the trailer axle. Tire pressure should be checked as well. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tandum or single axle trailer? If it was a single axle trailer, you were > clearly overloaded for the trailer and truck. "I was towing a trailer with 2 ric of firewood home the other day, and I couldn't go above 55 miles per hour, the trailer was weaving back and forth so much..." that's a good amount of information. "you ant from around here are you boy?" SignatureBilly 1995 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins > "I was towing a trailer with 2 ric of firewood home the other day, and I > couldn't go above 55 miles per hour, the trailer was weaving back and > forth > so much..." A "ric" equals how many pounds? "the trailer" equals how long, what weight capacity, and what gross weight allowed? You ain't got any more clue than I do, do ya? At least I know what I'm looking for.....Facts. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > "I was towing a trailer with 2 ric of firewood home the other day, and I > couldn't go above 55 miles per hour, the trailer was weaving back and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that's a good amount of information. "you ant from around here are you > boy?" I was wondering too how a "ric" weights too??? Did a Google search and found nothing that I would share on here :-) >> "I was towing a trailer with 2 ric of firewood home the other day, and I >> couldn't go above 55 miles per hour, the trailer was weaving back and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> that's a good amount of information. "you ant from around here are you >> boy?" Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and you are at two tons or better. You should think before you comment because you are the one that is really clueless here and should not be giving advise. >>I do not think that will fix it, too much load and too little tow vehicle. >>Try running trailer and rear truck tires at max rated cold pressure. Low [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > But lets assume it was. IF it was overloaded, it would drag like it was in > mud, and getting to 55MPH would be the issue, not towing in a straight line. Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com > Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the > wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and > you are at two tons or better. You should think before you comment because > you are the one that is really clueless here and should not be giving > advise. Yeah, so you have trailer weight narrowed down to.... a half ton either way. Yup, thats accurate. BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking about: You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you guess the trailer could be, its STILL within towing capacity of the vehicle you earlier claimed was too small. Another note, having done considerable firewood gathering, a cord weighs no where near 4000lbs (I doubt over 3000lbs either), as the dimensions are 4x4x8 feet. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the > wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> in mud, and getting to 55MPH would be the issue, not towing in a straight >> line. > > Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the > > wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yeah, so you have trailer weight narrowed down to.... a half ton either way. > Yup, thats accurate. Far more so than you Maxi. > BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking about: > You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you guess the > trailer could be, its STILL within towing capacity of the vehicle you > earlier claimed was too small. But could be loaded completely wrong. > Another note, having done considerable firewood gathering, a cord weighs no > where near 4000lbs (I doubt over 3000lbs either), as the dimensions are > 4x4x8 feet. And once again, you would be wrong. http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/forestry/g881.htm Look at the chart, Red oak wet is 4888 and white oak (what a waste for firewood) is 5573 wet and 4200 dry. Not even close huh?? SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking >> about: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > But could be loaded completely wrong. Yup, and if, instead of opening your yap and bashing me, you had checked my reply to the OP, you'd find thats EXACTLY what I told the OP. >> Another note, having done considerable firewood gathering, a cord weighs > no [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Look at the chart, Red oak wet is 4888 and white oak (what a waste for > firewood) is 5573 wet and 4200 dry. Not even close huh?? This assumes a solid or nearly so cord. Since air space is inherent in a cord of wood, weight will be less than the figures in the table. Having loaded more than few trucks with firewood, I can say with some assurance (whether you want to believe it or not) that a cord weighs less than 4000 lbs. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >> > Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content >> > the [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Look at the chart, Red oak wet is 4888 and white oak (what a waste for > firewood) is 5573 wet and 4200 dry. Not even close huh?? > BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking about: > You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you guess the > trailer could be, its STILL within towing capacity of the vehicle you > earlier claimed was too small. Given that the Dak he was driving is rated to tow just over 6,000lbs.... now - let's say he was hauling 3,500lbs. of wood. A 5x10 flatbed trailer is usually a single-axle, and usually weighs in under 1,000lbs. (750lbs. is closer). He probably was a little over on the trailer, (again, assuming a single axle, 3,500lb. rating - pretty typical), but he's still nowhere near the towing capacity of his truck. But - it's very possible the trailer wasn't loaded properly, resulting in too little tongue weight, causing the instability. I think I read that posted here already.... > But - it's very possible the trailer wasn't loaded properly, resulting in > too little tongue weight, causing the instability. I think I read that > posted here already.... Yeah, like back in my first reply to the thread. For being full of sh.t like Tbone would like to believe, I not only was the first post to say that, but almost everyone thinks the same thing, except for Snoman. Some things never change. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >> BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking >> about: You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > too little tongue weight, causing the instability. I think I read that > posted here already.... >>BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking about: >>You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you guess the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > too little tongue weight, causing the instability. I think I read that > posted here already.... You really are clueless here arent you. Towing is not cut and dried and lots of varibles to consider mas weight goes on on a LD SUV like that (like hitch weight) and the 6000lb "rating" is not worth the paper it is printed on as I have a 2000 K3500 tht is only "rated to tow 8K but it will handle 13k (I have done it with no stabilty issues at all) a LOT better than that truck will handle 6K Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com There are two things that are pretty much cut and dried when it comes to stable towing: 10% of the loaded weight on the hitch and a 3:1 ratio of tongue length (hitch to axle) to track width. But one variable has been completely over looked: How far is it from the truck's rear axle to the hitchball? The greater the distance, the more sway from hinge effect, and if the truck's tires were deflated for a soft ride . . . . That was why the wagon didn't tow well behind the 54 Chevy for me, soft, tall tires and a big hinge effect. I'm still thanking God I didn't let my 19 year old nephew drive the rig home. Budd > >>BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking about: > >>You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you guess the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > will handle 13k (I have done it with no stabilty issues at all) a LOT > better than that truck will handle 6K > You really are clueless here arent you. Towing is not cut and dried and > lots of varibles to consider mas weight goes on on a LD SUV like that > (like hitch weight) and the 6000lb "rating" is not worth the paper it is > printed on as I have a 2000 K3500 tht is only "rated to tow 8K but it will > handle 13k (I have done it with no stabilty issues at all) a LOT better > than that truck will handle 6K Thus proving that the overloading issue you claim was part of the problem isn't really part of the problem..... SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>>BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking >>>about: You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > handle 13k (I have done it with no stabilty issues at all) a LOT better > than that truck will handle 6K > You really are clueless here arent you. It's that apparent, huh? :) > printed on as I have a 2000 K3500 tht is only "rated to tow 8K but it will > handle 13k (I have done it with no stabilty issues at all) So you're admitting to pulling more than 50% over your vehicle's legal limit, but I'm the one who's clueless because I point out that the OP wasn't pulling more than his vehicle was rated for. Got it... >> BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking about: >> You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you guess the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >too little tongue weight, causing the instability. I think I read that >posted here already.... Tom.. I have the same Dakota.. 4.7, 3:55 gears... it's max tow according to Trailer Life is 5,200 pounds... goes up to 6,400 with 4:10 gears.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing >>>BTW, speaking of not commenting before knowing what you are talking about: >>>You should be aware that even with the huge range in weight you guess the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Please remove splinters before emailing On flat ground with a tail wind maybe and no curves Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com >> Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the >> wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >where near 4000lbs (I doubt over 3000lbs either), as the dimensions are >4x4x8 feet. A full cord of firewood is 128 cubic feet - 4X4X8, but actually contains only roughly 100 cubic feet of wood. Well seasoned hardwood should come in just under 4000 lbs. Spring cut maple could be over 6000 lbs. Dry white oak is about 4200 lbs, Dry basswood is about 1900. Dry Maple is about 3600, unless it's silver maple, at about 2700, more or less. A properly loaded trailer of any weight will follow calmly behind just about any vehicle capable of pulling it. Conversely, a trailer with only 600 lbs on it can get VERY hairy if the load is on the very back, making the hitch "light". >>>Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the >>>wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > only 600 lbs on it can get VERY hairy if the load is on the very back, > making the hitch "light". Very true. Most utilty trailer those only have 2900 to 3500 pound rated axles and a cord would overload it and the tires on it making it less forgiving couple with a soft tow vehicle with soft springs and tires spell trouble. Also I guess the previous poster has not cut and hauled much wood to make the statement that it likely does not weigh over 3000lbs. It takes a serious P/U to haul a cord of it in the bed without dragging its tail. Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com >Also I guess the previous poster has not cut and hauled >much wood to make the statement that it likely does not weigh over >3000lbs. It takes a serious P/U to haul a cord of it in the bed without >dragging its tail. I know that feeling.... we took several wood cutting trips to the local forest this year and a few times were what I would consider overloaded... Pine and fir cut to 18" in 12" to 20" rounds, stacked a little above the top of the bed... VERY wet wood, been downed by storms and under the snow for months.. I'm guessing that we had just a little over 1/4 of a cord, but it had to weigh close to 800 or 900 pounds... We didn't weigh it, but when a ram 1500 levels out and grips the road like a sports car, you're overloaded.. lol The wood cutting permits from the forestry service come with 4 stickers per cord and encourage you to limit each load to 1/4 cord... mac Please remove splinters before emailing > Also I guess the previous poster has not cut and hauled much wood to make > the statement that it likely does not weigh over 3000lbs. It takes a > serious P/U to haul a cord of it in the bed without dragging its tail. I heated with wood for 10 years. Even given the table of weights, we still don't know what wood he was hauling. Even with an overloaded trailer, if the weight is properly distributed it'll pull straight, but sluggishly. I feel sorry for the rest of you if your half tonners weren't "serious" enough to haul a cord of wood. Maybe thats why I've always driven a Dodge, not just switched over in the past decade. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>>>Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the >>>>wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > to make the statement that it likely does not weigh over 3000lbs. It takes > a serious P/U to haul a cord of it in the bed without dragging its tail. >>>>Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the >>>>wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >3000lbs. It takes a serious P/U to haul a cord of it in the bed without >dragging its tail. My dad occaisionally hauled a full bush cord of wet hard maple in a 1/2 ton Ford. Had six plies and they had to be over 45psi. It DID drag, but if loaded high at the front of the box, it was the whole truck that squatted. I occaiasionally hauled over a yard of crushed stone in the trailer ( back half of and old F100) behind my Aerostar.3200 lbs if I remember correctly. Thats about 2700 lbs per yard. It was a balancing act getting the tougue weight right. I remember( the first load) shovelling some of the load forward to stop the swing - which had the added advantage of getting the axle off the bump stops. I also remember moving my tool box on my '57 Fargo Custom Express. I had the roll cab and top box right back at the tailgate, and the truck drove like it had sloppy linkage and power steering. Could spin the steering wheel with one finger. Good thing I wasn't going far. >>>>>Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the >>>>>wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > drove like it had sloppy linkage and power steering. Could spin the > steering wheel with one finger. Good thing I wasn't going far. We had 3 1/2 tons of gravel once in a J20 Jeep P/U many years ago. I still have that truck and it did no damage to it. It did not squat much but the tires were buldging with 80 PSI in them too. Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com > Two rics make a cord and depending on wood type and moisture content the > wood could weigh 3000 to 4000lb or more and through in trailer weight and > you are at two tons or better. You should think before you comment because > you are the one that is really clueless here and should not be giving > advise. If two rics equal a cord, then the trailer was first of all, grossly overloaded based upon the tire size. Assuming a cord is 128 cubic feet and allowing for air space lets say that cuts it down to 100 cuubic feet of actual wood. The density of oak/hickory varies from 40-55 lbs/cubic foot, so for the sake of argument lets say the average would be 45 lbs/cu ft. Therefore the weight of the load would be 4500lbs, plus the weight of the trailer depending on construction would be ~400 lbs for a total combined weight of 4900 lbs. The highest rating for a 13" tire that I can find in a load/inflation chart is 1620 lbs x 2 for a max load of 3240 lbs. Assuming the trailer is commercialy manufactured, the axle rating is probably not much more that the tire rating especially since it was designed for 13" wheels. A lot of factors to consider but without having all the facts, I'd say tongue weight is probably numero uno for the squirrelyness closely followed by tire overloading and in this extreme example frame flexing is not out of the question. The truck is capable of towing the load, but the trailer is simply not up to snuff. Mike >>>I do not think that will fix it, too much load and too little tow >>>vehicle. Try running trailer and rear truck tires at max rated cold [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> in mud, and getting to 55MPH would be the issue, not towing in a straight >> line. > What causes a trailer to fishtail? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > J. Had this happen to me in the 60's pulling a car trailer. About the scariest ride I ever had. The trailer was making "S" skid marks and I about lost it more than once. In my case it was a loose front end in the truck. I replaced all the bad parts and had the front end aligned. Never a problem after that. When it happened we tried to add weight to the truck by moving the car forward on the trailer, then we unloaded the car and turned it around and tied it as far back as we could. Must have mover that car 20 times, nothing helped. The only way to stop the weaving was to stand on the gas. Going down hills was murder. About 10 years ago I saw this happen to a guy in a Wagoneer pulling a camping trailer. He stopped and I offered to pull it with my truck. Hooked it up and it was a solid as if it was on railroad tracks. I pulled it about 40 miles and then we hit I-10 and went different directions. Al The scariest tow I ever made was towing a 68 AMC fullsize wagon (engine trouble) with a 54 Chevy for my older brother. 70 series radial tires on the wagon, a short tow bar and 6.70 X 15 bias-ply tires on the Chevy. At the first turn, a 5 mph street corner, the wagon tried to push the Chevy sideways. and that was to be the norm for the 60 mile haul back home on all but the slightest curves. Yes, the steering wheel was free to turn in the wagon. Budd > > What causes a trailer to fishtail? > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Al > What causes a trailer to fishtail? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > J. Improper weight distribution. You should have about 10% of the weight on the tongue. What that means is if the trailer and cargo weigh 2,000#, then the tongue weight should be 200#. With the kind of hauling you're doing, that's pretty tough to measure or estimate. So do this. With the truck on an even keel, measure the height of the bumper. Now find somebody who weighs about 200#, and have them stand on the trailer hitch ball. Now measure the height of the bumper. That's how much the the rear end sags with a 200 pound tongue weight (On my truck it's about 1.5"). Now you can guestimate tongue weight by measuring the bumper. Signature.boB On Order: 2006 FXDI, Red. 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged Stolen 11/26/05 in Denver 1HD1GEL10VY3200010 CO License J5822Z 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1965 FFR Cobra - 427W EFI, Damn Fast. > What causes a trailer to fishtail? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > J. The worst I've seen was as a police officer a few years ago. A guy was going on vacation driving a brand new Dodge Ram pulling a popup camper pulling a boat behind it. Well the boat trailer started to fishtail and that's all she wrote. Highway was shut down for hours while I worked this wreck. His beautiful new boat and camper were ruined as well as his brand new Ram. I felt so sorry for the guy. Bob I've often seen these rigs and wondered about the wisdom of them. Impossible to back up, certainly, but to be on the dog end when the tails wags the dog would be a bit much to take. Budd > > What causes a trailer to fishtail? > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Bob >I've often seen these rigs and wondered about the wisdom of them. >Impossible to back up, certainly, but to be on the dog end when the >tails wags the dog would be a bit much to take. That's why they are outlawed in Ontario, most of the rest of Canada, and I'm sure half the states. >Budd > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> Bob >What causes a trailer to fishtail? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >J. Not enough weight on the hitch - your load was too far back on the trailer. At least that's the MOST COMMON cause. > What causes a trailer to fishtail? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > J. I heated with wood for around 20 years and have hauled my share. It starts out weighing somewhere over 3,000 pounds after you cut and load it. But by the time you haul it home it will have gained at least 100% more weight depending on how far it is to the wood pile. I think that damed stuff soaks up all the energy out of your back and arms, gaining weight in leaps and bounds. I had a camper one time that had the fresh water tank at the back under the bed. After I loaded the trailer the way I wanted it, towing was nice and stable, until I would get close to the destination. You see I was smart enough to know that water weighed a considerable amount and there was no need to haul it all the way across country. But when I made my water stop and filled the tank it made the trailer lighter on the tung and would fish tail after you got up around 45 or 50. I would think his trailer was a toy hauler type with the single axle near the center as they sometimes are. If he loaded it evenly it would not have enough weight on the tung, that should be around 12 to 15 % of the overall weight to give a stable pull. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME |
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