 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / February 200694 Dodge Ram 318 Fuel Injection Questions
Hi, I am working on an intermittant problem on my 94 Dodge Ram. It has the 318 motor. It will intermittantly stop running like it is starved for fuel. This is preceeded by a couple of minutes of barely running while not under load, (spitting and sputtering through the throttle body). The problem most ofter happens following a normal drive of 15-45 minutes. I did some of the easy stuff first and replaced the rotor, dist. cap,, coil, and plug wires. It sounds like it is starved for fuel or that the computer has gone south and messed up the fuel injection or ingition. But am thinking fuel at this point. Does anyone know which relay, location, turns on and off the fuel pump? Does anyone know if there is a fuel sensor in the fuel line, and if there is where it is? Does anyone know if the computer is involved with turning the pump on and off? Any ideas before I start looking at fuel pump/filter, (expensive for this model and difficult to replace)? thanks, Mark > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The problem most ofter happens following a normal drive of 15-45 > minutes. This sounds more like a possible computer problem. > I did some of the easy stuff first and replaced the rotor, dist. cap,, > coil, and plug wires. What about the plugs? Did you pull and inspect them as well? IF you have a timing light, I would check the timing at idle when the engine is running normally and then bring it with you the next time you go out. When the engine acts up again, reconnect it and see what it is doing. If it is still normal, the problem is fuel related (still could be the computer) and if not, this will give you an indication if the problem is ignition related (sensor or still the computer). > It sounds like it is starved for fuel or that the computer has gone > south and messed up the fuel injection or ingition. But am thinking > fuel at this point. Does anyone know which relay, location, turns on > and off the fuel pump? Does anyone know if there is a fuel sensor in > the fuel line, and if there is where it is? Does anyone know if the > computer is involved with turning the pump on and off? I don't remember which relay, there is no fuel sensor in the line, and yes, the computer controls the pump. If it were a fuel starvation problem, the problem should be fairly consistent and not take 40 to 45 minutes to occur and then go away again in a few minutes. The computer OTOH, could have a heat related problem that takes time to build up. Are you getting a check engine light? You might want to have the computer checked for potential codes as these indicate potential and initial problems that have not yet lit the check engine light. > Any ideas before I start looking at fuel pump/filter, (expensive for > this model and difficult to replace)? You can use the timing light test to see if your ignition is acting up. As for the pump, it is in the tank and the filter and regulator are part of it. The price is between $150 and $450 depending on who makes it and where you get it and if it is still the origional pump, it is getting up there in age but then again, my Nissan is 17 years old and still has its origional pump. I would find somebody with a fuel pressure guage and both pressure and flow test the pump before swapping it out and do it with a fairly low tank of fuel to rule out cracks in the intake tube sucking air, which could be another cause of your problems (as remote as that may be).  SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving TBone, OK, several good suggestions. I do have a timing light and that would certainly tell me if the ignition timing is going south. Yes, I price a NAPA pump filter assy and it was 200. I also had another suggestion earlier on this board about how to replace it which sounds better than dropping the tank. I was told to raise the bed and I could get at the pump/filter assy. I did not know there was a regulater in the pkg also. The computer controls the pump and there is no pressure switch?? How does the computer control the pump? Or, does it just have the pump on all the time and the regulator provides the right amount of gas? If this is the case I could disconnet the fuel line at the rail, turn the key on, and I should have gas, right? Will the computer save error codes? I had it at a shop following the second failure, after replacing the failed parts. They said there were no error codes. (They actually put a 100 miles on the truck without it failing, so they were not able to see the failure. (The truck had died on the side of the road and I had them tow it in.) Anyway, could the computer have zered the error codes, if any, when things started working again? thanks, Mark > TBone, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pump/filter assy. I did not know there was a regulater in the pkg > also. You can raise the bed but I really don't know which is more difficult. If the tank were near empty, I would think that dropping the tank would be easier and far less dangerous as the bed is always heavy. The fuel system in your truck only has one line and no return path so it has a regulator and it is in the tank with the pump and filter. > The computer controls the pump and there is no pressure switch?? How > does the computer control the pump? Or, does it just have the pump on > all the time and the regulator provides the right amount of gas? If > this is the case I could disconnet the fuel line at the rail, turn the > key on, and I should have gas, right? The pump uses it's regulator to control and maintain pressure. The computer turns the pump on when the ignition is switched on for a few seconds to build up pressure and turns it back on full time when it senses the engine is running. I would suspect it is done this way to prevent the pump from killing the battery when the ignition is left on and the engine is not running as some do to listen to the radio or run things that do not work in accessory mode. > Will the computer save error codes? I had it at a shop following the > second failure, after replacing the failed parts. They said there were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > computer have zered the error codes, if any, when things started > working again? I don't think so. It can turn off the check engine light after a while but I think that it still retains the codes, at least for a while. If the battery were to be disconnected, they would be cleared. Either way, unless the battery were to be disconnected or they were reset with a code reader, they should still be there for a while if they existed at all. > thanks, Your welcome. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > If this is the case I could disconnet the fuel line at the rail, turn the > key on, and I should have gas, right? Oh, and this might be a bad idea to try this as you are dealing with a high pressure pump and it could make a real mess that could be a real fire hazard. The pump will also only run for a few seconds without the engine running. You should use the proper tools here. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Oh, and this might be a bad idea to try this as you are dealing with a > high > pressure pump and it could make a real mess that could be a real fire > hazard. The pump will also only run for a few seconds without the engine > running. You should use the proper tools here. Actually, its a bad idea because most fuel rails have a test port, no need to disconnect anything. And yes, a proper guage would be best, but simply tapping the pin in the valve should allow fuel to spurt out. Cover the valve with a rag, and take appropriate precautions. As to the filter and regulator, by 2000, the pair with in a seperate housing on top of the pump. Both are removable as a unit and can be done without pulling the pump out of the tank. Not sure how far back this goes, but OP should check to be sure, as it might cut cost and time for repairs. I would also check to be sure any pump OP gets has this unit, as $200 almost sounds too low to be a full assembly. Last, buy the Factory Service Manual, its irreplaceable for good info. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > > Oh, and this might be a bad idea to try this as you are dealing with a > > high [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > tapping the pin in the valve should allow fuel to spurt out. Cover the valve > with a rag, and take appropriate precautions. Most is not all and if you damage the test port taping a pin in it, then you really are SOL and you will still have fuel spraying at high pressure into the engine compartment, not a good idea. My 97 manual say's that SOME of the fuel rails have a test port, not all of them. The appropriate precautions are to use the correct tools and use them correctly. > As to the filter and regulator, by 2000, the pair with in a seperate housing > on top of the pump. Both are removable as a unit and can be done without > pulling the pump out of the tank. I don't think so. How would you disconnect it from the fuel pump. Come to think of it, how exactly would the fuel pump be mounted if not to the upper flange. Again, in 97 they started doing this as the manual also says SOME OF THEM have a removable fuel filter / regulator assembly but you still had to remove the entire assemply from the tank to get to it. > Not sure how far back this goes, but OP > should check to be sure, as it might cut cost and time for repairs. On a 94, it would increase time as the pump still has to be removed and now disassembled. With a pump that old and the amount and difficulty of work involved, if he is going to remove it he should just replace the entire assembly anyway. > I would > also check to be sure any pump OP gets has this unit, as $200 almost sounds > too low to be a full assembly. I don't think that the pump for the 94 comes any other way although it might be comming without the fuel guage sensor. Mine was complete and for less than that but I know somebody who works at a major parts distributor and gets a significant discount. > Last, buy the Factory Service Manual, its irreplaceable for good info. Good advice here but Dodge is not known for keeping manuals for a vehicle this old. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Most is not all True, but I'd bet on a Dodge, there is one. > and if you damage the test port taping a pin in it, then you > really are SOL and you will still have fuel spraying at high pressure into > the engine compartment, not a good idea. If you do it while the engine is running, yes. If you take "proper precautions", such as not doing it when the manifolds might be hot, the engine won't be running, and it will be a minimal amount of fuel. > My 97 manual say's that SOME of > the fuel rails have a test port, not all of them. The appropriate > precautions are to use the correct tools and use them correctly. Yup, a small flat blade screwdriver and a bit of finesse, and you won't hurt the valve. If you are going to advise a person on how to fix something themselves, the first rule is to tell them how. >> As to the filter and regulator, by 2000, the pair with in a seperate > housing >> on top of the pump. Both are removable as a unit and can be done without >> pulling the pump out of the tank. > > I don't think so. How would you disconnect it from the fuel pump. Well, my FSM has instructions and several pictures showing EXACTLY how its done. Now, if the same design was in use as early as 94, I don't know, and I wrote as much. > Come to > think of it, how exactly would the fuel pump be mounted if not to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > had > to remove the entire assemply from the tank to get to it. As I said, I wasn't sure when they started using it, nor am I sure if any were retrofitted. >> Not sure how far back this goes, but OP >> should check to be sure, as it might cut cost and time for repairs. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > involved, if he is going to remove it he should just replace the entire > assembly anyway. If he has the assembly I mentioned, he would only need to remove the filter/regualtor. Otherwise, I wouldn't have mentioned it as being easier. >> I would >> also check to be sure any pump OP gets has this unit, as $200 almost [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than that but I know somebody who works at a major parts distributor and > gets a significant discount. >> Last, buy the Factory Service Manual, its irreplaceable for good info. > > Good advice here but Dodge is not known for keeping manuals for a vehicle > this old. There are several sources on the net where an FSM for this truck can be purchased. Limiting a search to the dealer network would be foolish. Are you always trying to be difficult and contradictory? Oh wait, you are Tbone, of COURSE you are always that way.. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > > Most is not all > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > precautions", such as not doing it when the manifolds might be hot, the > engine won't be running, and it will be a minimal amount of fuel. What purpose would doing this really serve? While the spray may indicate pressure, it will give you no value of how much pressure (especially spraying into and under a rag) or valid flow amount this way and you still risk damaging the port. > > My 97 manual say's that SOME of > > the fuel rails have a test port, not all of them. The appropriate > > precautions are to use the correct tools and use them correctly. > > Yup, a small flat blade screwdriver and a bit of finesse, and you won't hurt > the valve. And you can guarantee this??? Will you offer to pay for a new fuel rail if he damages it with your method or a new vehicle if he catches it on fire? > If you are going to advise a person on how to fix something themselves, the > first rule is to tell them how. No, the first rule is to do no harm. Giving him bad advice on how to test for pressure could get him hurt, damage the rail, or at worst, get him killed and or destroy the vehicle. The manual has specific warning about doing crap like this and I think that they know just a little bit more about it than you. Playing games like this requires experience and I don't know if the OP has it, do you? > >> As to the filter and regulator, by 2000, the pair with in a seperate > > housing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > done. Now, if the same design was in use as early as 94, I don't know, and I > wrote as much. Well I do and it wasn't. I also both own the FSM for a 97 (same basic series as his) and replaced the pump in mine and if it was possible and easier to just replace the filter and regulator I would have suggested it in my list of things to do but until he sees the actual pressure and flow amount, replacing it is just blindly throwing money at the problem. > > Come to > > think of it, how exactly would the fuel pump be mounted if not to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > As I said, I wasn't sure when they started using it, nor am I sure if any > were retrofitted. 97 had both replacable and not and I'm not sure if it goes back further but even the ones that do have replacable filters require removal of the entire assembly to get to the filter / regulator. It may be different in 2000+ but not the 94. > >> Not sure how far back this goes, but OP > >> should check to be sure, as it might cut cost and time for repairs. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If he has the assembly I mentioned, he would only need to remove the > filter/regualtor. Otherwise, I wouldn't have mentioned it as being easier. Well, since I own a 97, it is far more likely that it uses a pump similar to mine than your year and in reality, how much easier is it? You still have to either raise the bed or drop the tank to get to it and still have to remove the fuel lines so unless something is very different with the 2000 and up, there is not much more to removing the pump after that point besides removing the locknut and an electrical connection and lifting it out. > >> I would > >> also check to be sure any pump OP gets has this unit, as $200 almost [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > There are several sources on the net where an FSM for this truck can be > purchased. Limiting a search to the dealer network would be foolish. I never said anything different but Dodge will be of no help here. > Are you always trying to be difficult and contradictory? LOL, what a case of PKB here Maxi. You have offered nothing of and added value here, only to try and contradict what I have said. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > What purpose would doing this really serve? While the spray may indicate > pressure, it will give you no value of how much pressure (especially > spraying into and under a rag) or valid flow amount this way and you still > risk damaging the port. Ok, let me state this more plainly than I did before, since it obviously escaped you. Using a guage would be the proper way to do this test. HOWEVER, lacking that, the tip of a screw driver can be used to ascertain if pressure exists. There is a minimal chance of damage, unless you are a hamfisted brute with no sense of force. If that describes you, then yes, YOU will have a problem with damage, not only with the valve, but the hood and most body panels on the truck. The dashboard is also at risk if you like to "air drum." > And you can guarantee this??? Will you offer to pay for a new fuel rail > if > he damages it with your method or a new vehicle if he catches it on fire? Yeah, I can guarantee this. Seen it done so many times it would boggle your mind. > No, the first rule is to do no harm. Nope, thats some other philosophy, like the hippocratic oath, or the prime directive. > Giving him bad advice on how to test > for pressure could get him hurt, damage the rail, or at worst, get him > killed and or destroy the vehicle. The manual has specific warning about > doing crap like this and I think that they know just a little bit more > about > it than you. The manual has a specific warning about a port that you claim they say may not even exist? It has no such warning in my 2000 FSM. > Playing games like this requires experience and I don't know > if the OP has it, do you? Um, yeah, I think he has experience unscrewing a cap and pushing a pin valve. Its not too much different than putting air in a tire. >> Well, my FSM has instructions and several pictures showing EXACTLY how >> its [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Well I do and it wasn't. Terrific, you know everything, I should have figured you would know this as well. > I also both own the FSM for a 97 (same basic > series as his) and replaced the pump in mine and if it was possible and > easier to just replace the filter and regulator I would have suggested it > in > my list of things to do but until he sees the actual pressure and flow > amount, replacing it is just blindly throwing money at the problem. I felt it was worth mentioning, given the age of the vehicle. If you don't like it that I mentioned it, go whine to someone who cares. >> There are several sources on the net where an FSM for this truck can be >> purchased. Limiting a search to the dealer network would be foolish. > > I never said anything different but Dodge will be of no help here. I never said he had to buy it from Dodge. > LOL, what a case of PKB here Maxi. You have offered nothing of and added > value here, only to try and contradict what I have said. Yup, you are truly a schmuck. Try reading what I said, instead of disagreeing with me, and then repeating what I said. I'm done here, you've reacted as predicted and planned. You'll reply to this no doubt, have fun. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >> > Most is not all >> [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > LOL, what a case of PKB here Maxi. You have offered nothing of and added > value here, only to try and contradict what I have said. > > What purpose would doing this really serve? While the spray may indicate > > pressure, it will give you no value of how much pressure (especially [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ok, let me state this more plainly than I did before, since it obviously > escaped you. It didn't escape me, it is just pure bullshit. > Using a guage would be the proper way to do this test. HOWEVER, lacking > that, the tip of a screw driver can be used to ascertain if pressure exists. Of course pressure exists or the engine wouldn't run at all. The pressure might be zero if the engine hasn't run for a while and that is considered normal according to the FSM depending on conditions but once again, you know better, right?!?!? What really matters is how much pressure and at what rate of flow with the engine running and neither can be validly tested with your poke the damn valve with a pin procedure. > There is a minimal chance of damage, unless you are a hamfisted brute with > no sense of force. Minimal is not zero and if it is damaged, then the vehicle becomes completely unusable and for no valid reason at all. > > And you can guarantee this??? Will you offer to pay for a new fuel rail > > if > > he damages it with your method or a new vehicle if he catches it on fire? > > Yeah, I can guarantee this. Seen it done so many times it would boggle your > mind. So that means that your checkbook is open then, right? > > No, the first rule is to do no harm. > > Nope, thats some other philosophy, like the hippocratic oath, or the prime > directive. Sorry Maxi, but it holds true here as well. Offering bad advice like you are doing helps nobody. > > Giving him bad advice on how to test > > for pressure could get him hurt, damage the rail, or at worst, get him [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The manual has a specific warning about a port that you claim they say may > not even exist? Yep. And it is not me that says it may not exist, that would be Dodge and the FSM and BTW, mine doesn't have one and I would bet that the OP's doesn't either. > It has no such warning in my 2000 FSM. Sure it does, you just are unable to understand what it is saying to you. > > Playing games like this requires experience and I don't know > > if the OP has it, do you? > > Um, yeah, I think he has experience unscrewing a cap and pushing a pin > valve. Its not too much different than putting air in a tire. LOL, and do you fill your tires with fuel and at 60LBS. We are talking about dealing with fuel under pressure and the components of a fuel injection system, not abusing a test port that probably doesn't exist on his vehicle anyway. > >> Well, my FSM has instructions and several pictures showing EXACTLY how > >> its [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Terrific, you know everything, I should have figured you would know this as > well. Yes you should have, especially since I own a vehicle very similar to his, unlike you who does not. > > I also both own the FSM for a 97 (same basic > > series as his) and replaced the pump in mine and if it was possible and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I felt it was worth mentioning, given the age of the vehicle. If you don't > like it that I mentioned it, go whine to someone who cares. Perhaps a micron of research would have told you that it was not worth mentioning because those procedures cannot be done to his system and the only one whining in here is you. > >> There are several sources on the net where an FSM for this truck can be > >> purchased. Limiting a search to the dealer network would be foolish. > > > > I never said anything different but Dodge will be of no help here. > > I never said he had to buy it from Dodge. But you didn't say he shouldn't either and if you know that Dodge probably doesn't sell it anymore you might have pointed out a possible place to get one but then again, we both know that you didn't post to actually try and help the OP, just another childish attempt to start crap with me. > > LOL, what a case of PKB here Maxi. You have offered nothing of and added > > value here, only to try and contradict what I have said. > > Yup, you are truly a schmuck. Try reading what I said, instead of > disagreeing with me, and then repeating what I said. I did and you said nothing of value. You mentioned taping a pin into a test port that probably doesn't exist on his vehicle which would be dangerous and provide nothing of value and then suggested replacing the filter / regulator without removing the pump which is not possible on his vehicle. Other than to try and contradict what I said or make yourself look smarter (and failed once again), what purpose did your posts really have other than to try and start crap? If you knew I was wrong about something then it would make sense to correct me but that is not the case here and we both know it. > I'm done here, you've reacted as predicted and planned. You'll reply to this > no doubt, have fun. You were done before you started Max. I am trying to help the OP and all you are doing is starting you childish crap. Perhaps you should either grow up or just shut up for a change. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving Whoa...you two guys slow down. There is just a little more to the Prime Directive ( written after 2161) as I am sure the OP knows. "The Prime Directive dictates that there be no interference with the natural development of any primitive society, chiefly meaning that no primitive culture can be given or exposed to any information regarding advanced technology or alien races. It also forbids any effort to improve or change in any way the natural course of such a society, even if that change is well-intentioned and kept totally secret." John >> > What purpose would doing this really serve? While the spray may > indicate [quoted text clipped - 156 lines] > grow > up or just shut up for a change. LOL, this is fairly minor compared to the crap that usually starts between us. It's too bad that it has to start when I am trying to help someone but I expect nothing less form some in here. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > Whoa...you two guys slow down. There is just a little more to the Prime > Directive ( written after 2161) as I am sure the OP knows. "The Prime [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John Mark There is a pickup coil in the distributor. Disconnect it close to the distributor and put a meter or something for continuity on it. Then wiggle the wire to see if it develops an open or any change. Replace the coil iof any doubt.. Bob AZ I'm having the same problem with my 94 Dakota. I've replaced the relay to the fuel pump and the problem is still happening. Voltage also is fluctuating greatly. Do you know where I could get a new/refurb computer at a decent price? >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Mark We have sent our computer to Blue Streak to hopefully have it rebuilt. rockauto.com has the replacement computer listed, but they were out of stock and directed us to Blue Streak. For about $200, hopefully it will come back fine. There is only an 80% chance they can rebuild it, but I'm willing to take the chance for the cost. Blue Streak and Standard are affiliated companies, so they work together on this computer stuff. The oe# was 56028322 which was changed to 4886667 which again was changed to 4886669. So, if you see those parts listed, they are the same. >I'm having the same problem with my 94 Dakota. I've replaced the relay to >the fuel pump and the problem is still happening. Voltage also is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>Mark Well, it turned out it wasn't the computer. It was wiring underneath the battery box. I was about ready to replace the fuel pump when my mechanic told me that he was going to try the wiring. My voltage is back to normal and all seems good so far. >We have sent our computer to Blue Streak to hopefully have it rebuilt. >rockauto.com has the replacement computer listed, but they were out of stock [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>> >>>Mark |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.