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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / March 2006coil question
Hi guys, I was wondering what would happen if the coil was installed the wrong way (both wires going in are black, same guage (not pink and black-w-stripe as haynes says) -- would it start? Would it die after a block even when warmed up properly? How about if the .33 microfarrad capacitor were hooked up to the wrong poll (+ve) or not hooked up at all? My dodge ram is such a farmer's special and haynes doesn't come even close on any of the diagrams for various years. thank you for any help you may be able to provide rach >Hi guys, > >I was wondering what would happen if the coil was installed the wrong >way (both wires going in are black, same guage (not pink and >black-w-stripe as haynes says) -- would it start? Would it die after a >block even when warmed up properly? As long as there isn't a diode in the primary coil it dosen't care which way the current flows through it. The coil doesn't care what color the wire is either. Its just a high voltage transformer. They can go bad when warm and then work when cold. Its and expansion/contraction thing. . > >How about if the .33 microfarrad capacitor were hooked up to the wrong >poll (+ve) or not hooked up at all? Caps usually are just there to absorb voltage spikes. They let ac pass and block dc. They also eliminate noise in the radio etc. >My dodge ram is such a farmer's special and haynes doesn't come even >close on any of the diagrams for various years. > >thank you for any help you may be able to provide > >rach Electrical gremlins are the hardest problems to solve. Mainly because you just can see them. beekeep >> Hi guys, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > As long as there isn't a diode in the primary coil it dosen't care which way the > current flows through it. thank you for answering so quickly -- that's good news, i don't need to switch things around and try again The coil doesn't care what color the wire is either. LOL! good one -- I like that :-) > Its just a high voltage transformer. They can go bad when warm and then work > when cold. Its and expansion/contraction thing. It's brand new >> How about if the .33 microfarrad capacitor were hooked up to the wrong >> poll (+ve) or not hooked up at all? > > Caps usually are just there to absorb voltage spikes. They let ac pass and > block dc. They also eliminate noise in the radio etc. ok thanks -- i can eliminate that too >> My dodge ram is such a farmer's special and haynes doesn't come even >> close on any of the diagrams for various years. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Electrical gremlins are the hardest problems to solve. mine is a full grown possessed ... i don't know what but it was probably an a.s in its former life Mainly because you just > can see them. i can see it on the curb down the road :-( > beekeep rach i am going to make a list of everything changed on it in the next day and run it by everyone Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? If so, then they are to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then it's just a matter of tracing the wires down to the ECU and the ballast. It sounds to me like the previous owner was not a mechanic. If you can, scrounge an ignition harness from a truck in a wrecking yard. The polarity normally doesn't matter on most capacitors but the RF suppression capacitor is supposed to be connected with the lead wire to the negative coil terminal and the case grounded to the engine. However, if you don't have any radios in the vehicle, why use it?  SignatureBudd Cochran > Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > rach >Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? If so, then they are >to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then it's just a matter of tracing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >negative coil terminal and the case grounded to the engine. However, if you >don't have any radios in the vehicle, why use it? So you don'r annoy the guy next tp you when sitting at a light. beekeep > On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:58:55 -0700, "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@preciscom > SPAM.net> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > beekeep Now, come on . . .don't you miss the "good ol' days" when Ford refused to use any kind of suppression unless it was in the radio? (40's-50's) Which was why they used Ford Philco radios? Besides, here in Moab anyway, most of those radios are playing so loud the occupants couldn't hear spark noise for their own . . . . .music volume. The engine probably already has resistor ( radio suppression) plug wires on resistor ( radio suppression) plugs . . .so how much more suppression do you need? Personally, imho and experience, you don't need both resistor plugs and wires to hold down interference. My D-150, until my son, Scott, replaced the plug wires was running stranded core wires, yep, genuine copper stranded wire on resistor plugs (Champion RN-14Y) and neither the radio in the truck, nor any in the house, nor any of my neighbors had any RF interference from it. And it ran great. Budd Sorry Budd but my first car was a '64. I Nevever drove anything from the 40s or 50s. 'Wasn't born until 52. beekeep >> On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:58:55 -0700, "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@preciscom >> SPAM.net> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** >*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com *** > Sorry Budd but my first car was a '64. I Nevever drove anything from the > 40s or > 50s. 'Wasn't born until 52. I never drove them either, but I had friends in school that had them and it was crazy to hear spark noise on my 56 Chevy radio because a Ford was sitting nearby , running, without noise on it's radio. My older brother explained why that happened when he came home on leave from the Air Force. He was an Electronics Technician for 25 years. Budd > beekeep > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from >>http://www.SecureIX.com *** >>Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? If so, then they are >>to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then it's just a matter of tracing [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >beekeep yeah, cuz nowadaze, you never know if that person is gonna be a bad tempered pick bunny with massive fire power! Mac https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm "pick" bunny or "pick a bunny"???? SignatureBudd Cochran >>On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:58:55 -0700, "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@preciscom >>SPAM.net> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis > https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm >> Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? If so, then they are >> to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then it's just a matter of tracing [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So you don'r annoy the guy next tp you when sitting at a light. crackle crackle hiss hiss -- extremely annoying LOL rach > beekeep > Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? If so, then they are > to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then it's just a matter of tracing > the wires down to the ECU and the ballast. It sounds to me like the previous > owner was not a mechanic. neither am i a mechanic -- will go check. i changed the ECU too -- had one in the reliable 86 Ram that needs body work to safety will get back to you shortly > If you can, scrounge an ignition harness from a > truck in a wrecking yard. i have the wrecking yard in my yard >grn> > The polarity normally doesn't matter on most capacitors but the RF > suppression capacitor is supposed to be connected with the lead wire to the > negative coil terminal and the case grounded to the engine. However, if you > don't have any radios in the vehicle, why use it? OK -- i took it off when i noticed it was going to the positive just before i emailed the group -- i will leave it off -- radio and speakers are not worth listening to -- will leave it off thanks budd rach >> Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? If so, then they are >> to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then it's just a matter of tracing [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >rach You might want to rethink that if there are any electonic circuits involved. Some of those transistors can be fried very easily by a voltage spike, especially in the older versions. beekeep >>> Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? If so, then they are >>> to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then it's just a matter of tracing [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > beekeep my brand new baby bouncing chilton manual that arrived today (yee hee) that i'll be picking up tomorrow should tell me rach Rach, Greg makes a good point if your engine has the dreaded Lean Burn computer, but it still should be on the negative side of the coil. If your emission laws allow, switch to a 70's distributor, harness, ballast and ECU from an older /6 engine (car or truck) and get rid of that thing and save a ton of hassle in the future. SignatureBudd Cochran >>>> Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? If so, then they >>>> are to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then it's just a matter of [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > rach > Rach, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and ECU from an older /6 engine (car or truck) and get rid of that thing and > save a ton of hassle in the future. yes, I will be checking that out tomorrow as Greg suggested and while i`m at napa picking up my manual -- does it matter which way the coil is installed -- i put it in the same way as the old one -- positive towards the firewall i`ll get the pricing on parts you suggested -- there is no emissions testing in quebec yet -- not sure i can afford them -- is this critical to its running without stalling -- and will check for sparking tues night once it is running, i want to have the motor switched with the motor in my other 86 -- i have to get them both to a neighbours -- run it over the summer while i fix up my 4x4s and sell it early fall if it causes any more trouble rach >> Rach, >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > installed -- i put it in the same way as the old one -- positive towards > the firewall Physical position isn't important but polarity is. A red wire in common with the O2 feedback solenoid, the EGR solenoid, and ( CA only) air switching solenoid goes to the positive terminal of the coil. A Black with yellow tracer goes back to the computer and a black with blue tracer goes from both wires on the distributor to the computer ( from my son's Haynes Dodge truck manual). > i`ll get the pricing on parts you suggested -- there is no emissions > testing in quebec yet -- not sure i can afford them -- is this critical to > its running without stalling -- and will check for sparking tues night It may not make a difference, but the spark control computers were notoriously failure prone, especially when the engine compartment warmed up. > once it is running, i want to have the motor switched with the motor in my > other 86 -- i have to get them both to a neighbours -- run it over the > summer while i fix up my 4x4s and sell it early fall if it causes any more > trouble > > rach In my opinion, as well as that of Mercedes engineers, the slant six was one of the best engines ever designed , then the EPA stepped in with the emissions requirements, so, you got the computer, the hydraulic lifters, the cast iron crank, and the 50% reduction in fuel economy. Budd >>> Rach, >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Budd good morning budd! i need some time to digest all your pointers with the truck and chilton :-) manual in-hand so to speak, and to check into greg`s suggestion just so you know budd, the other motor is also a 225 -- i wouldn`t dream of putting anything else in it, and yes, although they are not very popular in dodge trucks up here, that i think is due to misconception it is possible that the weak cylinder has a piece of ``crappy piece of plastic distributor gear`` ;-) underneath, causing misalignment, because when we had the distributor gear on the old one changed, we never did find that broken piece i have enough to keep me busy all day, so i`ll let you all know how things went tomorrow morning -- unless i get lucky before that rach >>>> Rach, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > good morning budd! Bonjour! > i need some time to digest all your pointers with the truck and chilton > :-) manual in-hand so to speak, and to check into greg`s suggestion > > just so you know budd, the other motor is also a 225 -- i wouldn`t dream > of putting anything else in it, and yes, although they are not very > popular in dodge trucks up here, that i think is due to misconception Unfortunately, the engine wasn't developed to it's full potential. A diesel version was tried, for example, and, according to one source, it twisted the crank hub off. > it is possible that the weak cylinder has a piece of ``crappy piece of > plastic distributor gear`` ;-) underneath, causing misalignment, because > when we had the distributor gear on the old one changed, we never did find > that broken piece It went into the oil pan, not the cylinder. I've broken one myself and that's where I found the piece when I dropped the pan to replace lower end bearings. Probable causes of No. 5's low reading: burnt or bent valve, collapsed lifter, broken rings, hole in piston or broken piston. Did you squirt a little oil into the cylinder and do a second test? If it comes way up, it's rings, up only a little probably means valve work. I know it's a hydraulic lifters, but run the engine, at idle, with the valve cover off and see if the vlve train is loose. I had one /6 that still carried 145 psi compression on all cylindeers and yet every top ring was broken. > i have enough to keep me busy all day, so i`ll let you all know how things > went tomorrow morning -- unless i get lucky before that > > rach Budd > I had one /6 that still carried 145 psi compression on all cylindeers > and yet every top ring was broken. And all this time I thought the top rings were for oil control. ;^) SignatureKen <LOL> That engine did sip the oil . . .quite well, to be frank, 75 miles per quart at highway speeds, yet at less than 50 mph it didn't use but a quart every 300 miles. The engine was severely overheated shortly after I bought it because the previous owner didn't mention the holes in the radiator so when I drove it 7 miles to a friend's house after paying cash, it got so hot it quit running. After it cooled, I replaced the head, changed the oil and drove it from 1976 to 1998. I figured the oil rings lost all tension from the overheating and it pumped oil up past the good second ring and the broken top rings. The young person I bought it from said he had "rebuilt" the engine. I don't think he cut the ridge out of the bores when he did. SignatureBudd Cochran >> I had one /6 that still carried 145 psi compression on all cylindeers >> and yet every top ring was broken. > > And all this time I thought the top rings were for oil control. ;^) > <LOL> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I bought it from said he had "rebuilt" the engine. I don't think he cut the > ridge out of the bores when he did. mine is carboned up really good, but it doesn't burn oil -- just a little dark out the exhaust upon first startup rach Dark blue (oil and rich mixture) , Blue-gray (oil), black (rich mixture). Lean the choke settings out a bit till it starts easily but no black smoke. SignatureBudd Cochran >> <LOL> >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > rach <snip> >> good morning budd! > > Bonjour! <chuckle> Bonjour! Ça va? >> i need some time to digest all your pointers with the truck and chilton >> :-) manual in-hand so to speak, and to check into greg`s suggestion [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > version was tried, for example, and, according to one source, it twisted the > crank hub off. wild! i did gather a bunch of articles on how to super-six these i just want a reliable daily driver in this truck (or its friend the other 86) cheap on gas and available to cart things around a few times a week what I found more interesting was a step-by-step how to change over to electronic fuel injection with them, using a combination of chev parts and a few new parts >> it is possible that the weak cylinder has a piece of ``crappy piece of >> plastic distributor gear`` ;-) underneath, causing misalignment, because [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that's where I found the piece when I dropped the pan to replace lower end > bearings. that is very comforting to know I don't have a partially meted "piece of crap" under there <grn> > Probable causes of No. 5's low reading: burnt or bent valve, collapsed > lifter, broken rings, hole in piston or broken piston. Did you squirt a > little oil into the cylinder and do a second test? If it comes way up, it's > rings, up only a little probably means valve work. I know it's a hydraulic > lifters, but run the engine, at idle, with the valve cover off and see if > the vlve train is loose. this is great to know! i had no idea about this diagnostic -- cool! i had been really really hoping it was the valve! i still need to get it running first however, knowing this -- which is easy enough to do on the lot where it is stuck, it may change my priorities with my planned motor switch with its twin > I had one /6 that still carried 145 psi compression on all cylindeers and > yet every top ring was broken. ouch! >> i have enough to keep me busy all day, so i`ll let you all know how things >> went tomorrow morning -- unless i get lucky before that no luck yet, but it is a beautiful day and i'm off to get my chilton manual :-) thanks budd rach > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > <chuckle> > Bonjour! Ça va? Tres Bien! Et vous? ( and I just ran out of my knowledge of French. VBG) >>> i need some time to digest all your pointers with the truck and chilton >>> :-) manual in-hand so to speak, and to check into greg`s suggestion [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > wild! > i did gather a bunch of articles on how to super-six these BTDT for my brother on his 80 D-100 with 4 speed OD trans ( 833). Used a factory two barrel intake ( iron reccommended as the welded aluminums tend to leak) and a carb from a 318. He said it felt like he gained about 20 Hp. > i just want a reliable daily driver in this truck (or its friend the other > 86) cheap on gas and available to cart things around a few times a week Ya can't beat the /6 for that. > what I found more interesting was a step-by-step how to change over to > electronic fuel injection with them, using a combination of chev parts and > a few new parts Sounds good. What engine are the parts from? 4.3 V-6?? >>> it is possible that the weak cylinder has a piece of ``crappy piece of >>> plastic distributor gear`` ;-) underneath, causing misalignment, because [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that is very comforting to know I don't have a partially melted "piece of > crap" under there <grn> To get to #5, it would have to drop into the pan, get sucked up by the pump, squeeze through the filter, then either slip past a valve guide (intake) or be thrown off the crank and slip past the rings. >> Probable causes of No. 5's low reading: burnt or bent valve, collapsed >> lifter, broken rings, hole in piston or broken piston. Did you squirt a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > this is great to know! i had no idea about this diagnostic -- cool! i had > been really really hoping it was the valve! Hey, it's what this "vintage Flatulencer" hangs around this place for, to remember the old stuff. <VBG> > i still need to get it running first Ok, insert key . . . ;) > however, knowing this -- which is easy enough to do on the lot where it is > stuck, it may change my priorities with my planned motor switch with its > twin In what way? >> I had one /6 that still carried 145 psi compression on all cylindeers and >> yet every top ring was broken. > > ouch! Yep, but it ran from 76 to about 98 like that. One tough engine! >>> i have enough to keep me busy all day, so i`ll let you all know how >>> things went tomorrow morning -- unless i get lucky before that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > rach You're welcome. Gad to help when I can. Budd > Do the two wires go to the distributor from the coil? It`s hard to tell because they are all taped up, however the tape is not factory so I am going to tear that part up tomorrow and check that it seems to be something electrical I am writing a new thread about the problem and things I have changed i have a chilton book that was on order that arrived also -- have money to get it tomorrow rach > Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > rach hey guys, i really appreciate your help -- i have enough to check on now, that i have renewed hope i will get this thing running without paying a fortune at a garage i was beginning to despair because i just paid for a freezer (that i badly will need for rabbits) and a washing machine to replace the leaker for $70 cdn but need a truck to pick them up. however, i just realised that if i am still working on the dodge, i can take my old rusted 77 gmc van out illegally once more (chuckle) but ought to put some mirrors on it first ;-) |
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