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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / May 2006Exchange my V-10 for a diesel cost effective?
Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it in for a new one. Mine is a 1999 4x4 quad cab, tow package w 39,000 mi on it. Pretty much mint except for some parking lot dings. I like the truck the- mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done this and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom It would be cheaper to sell yours and buy one. I bought a 2000 with 93k miles club cab and long box with performance goodies, tow package and 54 gal fuel tank for 15k. > Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a > diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it > in for a new one. Mine is a 1999 4x4 quad cab, tow package w 39,000 mi on > it. Pretty much mint except for some parking lot dings. I like the truck > the- mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done > this and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom i recently traded a 99 v10 for a 05 cummins best move ive made in a while. the cummins pulls like a dream and is getting twice the fuel milage the 8L was empty.  Signature-Chris 05 CTD 99 Durango 06 Liberty CRD > Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a > diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it in > for a new one. Mine is a 1999 4x4 quad cab, tow package w 39,000 mi on it. > Pretty much mint except for some parking lot dings. I like the truck the- > mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done this > and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom >Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a >diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it in >for a new one. Mine is a 1999 4x4 quad cab, tow package w 39,000 mi on it. >Pretty much mint except for some parking lot dings. I like the truck the- >mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done this >and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom If you want to do something radical, convert it to run on propane as it has not skyrocketed like other fuels and it has a octane of 110 plus so you could raise compression up to 12 to 1 or more and get some really impressive power too. Bulk propane is running about 1.65 a gallon here. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com That would be interesting. Anyone have any insight on this conversion? Signature------------------------------------------ Laszlo Almasi ----Cool Toys (formerly Carolina Watercraft Works) ----Mack Daddy Trailers ----Ice Angels >>Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a >>diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The SnoMan > www.thesnoman.com >That would be interesting. Anyone have any insight on >this conversion? I have read about several of them and I have a 79 Jeep J20 that I want to restore someday and I am seriously considering making it a propane only vehical. The problem with some conversions is that they put propane in a stock engine (and it will burn fine with extremely low emissions too) but propane has about 25% les energy per gallon than gas so you need more of it in a stock engine but since propane has a LOT higher octane, you can raise CR to 12 to 1 no sweat and increase power and efficency and get MPG simular to gas on stock compression but with a lot cheap fuel. It also burn a bit slower so more spark advance is needed to which most dual fuel (gas/propane) engine do not properly do. The draw back is you have to install a somewhat heavy tank for fuel stored under pressure but since propane weighs 4 lbs a gallon vs 6.5lbs/gal for gas, the lighter fuel ofsets most or all of this weight. Pound for pound, propane has more energy than gas. By weight, 6.5 lbs of gas (one gallon) contain about 120,000BTU (plus or minus depending on blend) and 6.5 lbs of propane has approx 145,000 BTU's (this heat energy is what drives the engine) while the same amout of E85 has only about 60.000 BTU (and a gallon of E85 weighs almost 8 lbs too). THe main reason that diesel get good MPG is because the fuel has a higher energy content (about 140,000 BTU/gal) and with the very high CR or 16 to 20 to 1 you get much higher thermodynamic efficency (convert more heat energy to work). But, if you use a fuel like propane (or even high octane fuel) it is possible to raise CR ratio a good bit and improve efficency. Some mention running cars on natural gas or hydrogen but the problem there is it take a lot of pressue and technology to store them in a ligud state to get a lot of range where propane is a LOT easier to store and handle. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com Still to get the full benefit you'd have to pull the v10 out and make modifications. Trade that v10 in on a 12-valve cummins and then install a CNG (compressed natuarl gas) fuel system so that it is true bi-fuel. With a flip of a switch you'd run either straight diesel or "diesel pilot"/CNG. I've dreampt of it, but money is tight...of course these days it might be a consideration of who cannot afford to do so. I was thinking CNG was closer to 130 octane, but I only have three PhD's and two Lunar missions under my belt. Still range is limited with CNG. Average CNG fuel tanks, 18gge at 3600 psi, is not going to take you as far as chemical fuels...300 mile range would be optomistic. Ford currently makes CNG dedicated vehicles that have a range of 425 miles! I could live with that. Downside is depending on where you live you can't fuel up your CNG tank. Limited places where you can refuel at present :( Good news is CNG is the future baby...have no doubt. One cool option would be to have a compressor in your garage attached to your natural gas line. Then you could recharge your vehicles tank over night using an automated compressor like those used for scuba tanks. Imagine getting your fuel bill embedded within your utility bill! Here's a sight that lists where many alternative fuel stations can be found within the United States... http://www.ngv.org/ngv/ngvorg01.nsf/bytitle/nrelstationlocator.htm Randolf I guess I should have been more clear What I was looking for was what was involved in removing the V-10 and installing a deisel. To trade my truck in for a new Dodge [same equiptment] would take appr $25-30k, I thought mabey having a deisel put in my truck might be a little cheaper than that. Most used deisel's are about to expire their warrante so they are traded, not my cup of tea. I suppose the comp has to be adjusted or different comp Don't know if the Dsl will bolt in the tranny either, Anyway that was actually my question Thanks, Tom Ps Chris you diddn't say if you traded engines or trucks. > Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a > diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it > in for a new one. Mine is a 1999 4x4 quad cab, tow package w 39,000 mi on > it. Pretty much mint except for some parking lot dings. I like the truck > the- mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done > this and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom > having a deisel put in my truck might be a little cheaper than that. Most > used deisel's are about to expire their warrante so they are traded, not > my cup of tea. And you think you'll have any kind of warranty on your truck after you install an engine that it wasn't originally equipped with? But - that aside... an engine will run you about $7K. The transmission will actually bolt up. You'll need an intercooler (about $1K), an exhaust ($500), an intake ($200-$300), a different fuel tank module and fuel lines ($300), a different PCM ($400), and other misc. stuff... you'll be at $10K before labor. I would think you could easily trade your truck for a similarly-used diesel for under $10K in cash. It was quite clear what you wanted. As you see, everyone is in consensus that it is a better decision to trade in the vehicle for a diesel. Sure, used ones may not be warrantied, but you can buy an extended warranty. >I guess I should have been more clear What I was looking for was what was >involved in removing the V-10 and installing a deisel. To trade my truck in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> the- mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done >> this and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom i traded trucks. like i said best move ive made. the cummins is a dream. at the cost of a new diesel engine plus the headaches of figuring out what all has to swap ect. i sincerly doubt it would be a worthy venture. my honest opinion is trade for a new and you will be amazed at the fuel savings alone. not to mention the amount of pullin power (like the v10 isnt impressive enough) Signature-Chris 05 CTD 99 Durango 06 Liberty CRD > I guess I should have been more clear What I was looking for was what was > involved in removing the V-10 and installing a deisel. To trade my truck in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > the- mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done > > this and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom You would loose money and time and sanity. I'd shop around for one of those rare jewels...1998 - Quad Cab - 2-wheel drive - Long wheel base - 12-valve diesel with manual transmission. As beautiful as they are dependable! Randolf So it would cost me about 10k before labor- and if i understand you correctly they don't warrentee their desiel engines that they sell if they are not installed in the factory? If labor was appr 2k-2.5k =12-14k Still cheaper than trading it in for new. Well just exploring my options. Buying used is ok if you buy it from somebody used to running deisel and maintaning same. I drove OTR and many of my friends do that also. Still curious as if anybody has done this. Thanks Tom > Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a > diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it > in for a new one. Mine is a 1999 4x4 quad cab, tow package w 39,000 mi on > it. Pretty much mint except for some parking lot dings. I like the truck > the- mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done > this and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom > are not installed in the factory? If labor was appr 2k-2.5k =12-14k > Still cheaper than trading it in for new. You're comparing apples to oranges... by trading for new, you're also getting a new truck wrapped around the new engine. You need to compare the costs to trading in for a comparable '99 CTD. Not to be trite but the truck I have is in great shape, I dont really need a new one, Being Afraid of buying other people's troubles, would rather spend the trade in money on new parts and I would at least know what I got. I checked a couple dealers about trade in for a truck with about the same miles on it = 39,528 They had nothing under 50,000mi. For the same type w deisel engine truck with 50,000 they wanted 11,000 to boot and my truck. Simaliar deals at other dealers. This is where I got the idea for swaping engines. For about the same money i would have a new diesel engine, better mileage, in a truck that i know has been taken care of. This is where i am coming from, So to speak. But didn't have a good idea what is involved so came to this newsgroup to see if anybody has done this already or something similar. Oh almost forgot tradeing for new would be about 25k - 30k to boot in my area. Thanks again for the replys Tom >> are not installed in the factory? If labor was appr 2k-2.5k =12-14k >> Still cheaper than trading it in for new. > > You're comparing apples to oranges... by trading for new, you're also > getting a new truck wrapped around the new engine. You need to compare > the costs to trading in for a comparable '99 CTD. > Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a > diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it in > for a new one. Mine is a 1999 4x4 quad cab, tow package w 39,000 mi on it. > Pretty much mint except for some parking lot dings. I like the truck the- > mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done this > and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom The good news is that since it's a stock engine/trans, the swap can be done with all factory parts. No need to scour dozens of catalogs and web sites to find everything you need. Of course, you have to buy the engine and trans. Also, fuel system (tank to engine), and electronic controls (wire harness and computer). Don't forget the new exhaust system. The diesel engine is a bit heavier than the V-10, so you'll have to replace the appropriate front suspension bits. CLutch linkage. Motor and trans mounts. Drive shafts. Etc, Etc. Your best bet would be to find a wrecked truck to be a donor. On the plus side, all the parts you remove will have some value. But probably not as much as you might think. If I were looking for a V-10 for a performance project, I'd be looking for the viper engine and trans, not the ram. But you could find another truck owner who needs a new engine. Is it economical? Good question. If you do the math, you'll probably find it will take a lot of miles to break even on a project like this. Lets say you could get it all done for $10K. How much gas can you buy for $10K? Around here, diesel cost more than premium gas. Unless you really have a hankering to undertake a project like this, forget it. Signature.boB Arrived: 2006 FXDI, Red. 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged Stolen 11/26/05 in Denver 1HD1GEL10VY3200010 CO License J5822Z 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1965 FFR Cobra - 427W EFI, Damn Fast. > will take a lot of miles to break even on a project like this. Lets say > you could get it all done for $10K. How much gas can you buy for $10K? Good point... I completely overlooked that. Based on a previous response, diesel vs. gas, at today's prices (and in my area, where diesel is a little cheaper than anything but 87 octane), it took about 50,000 miles to make up $5K. Obviously, that's 100,000 miles to break even on the $10K, or more if he's in a situation like you are where diesel is more expensive (probably around 130,000 miles or so). That's why the $5K premium for the diesel at the time of initial purchase is such a good deal... at 62,000 miles, my engine's already paid for :) Thanks for the replys, It looks like having a swap to deisel done may not be cost effective if done with new parts, engine ect, finding a donor is more than I am willing to deal with because there is no way of me telling how that vechicle was maintained. I have bought engines from the local boneyard and got an engine as bad as I had allready, shure they would exchange it for another but the re-exchange is a lot of work. Sill cheaper than buying new truck but you don't get that new truck smell :] Also I see one post says I would have to change trannys 1 says not. I failed to mention I have an automatic tranny, I don't know if that makes any difference as to bolt up. You know- gas auto to deisel auto trannys. Anyway thanks again for the replys, Tom. > Was wondering how involved it would be to rip out my V-10 and install a > diesel provided the cost was not excessive. Meaning more than trading it > in for a new one. Mine is a 1999 4x4 quad cab, tow package w 39,000 mi on > it. Pretty much mint except for some parking lot dings. I like the truck > the- mileage - not so much anyway I thought somebody here might have done > this and was willing to share info on the subject. Thanks, Tom > Also I see one post says I would have to change trannys 1 says not. I > failed to mention I have an automatic tranny, I don't know if that makes > any difference as to bolt up. The diesel and V10 used the same transmission in that year - the 47RE. Since the adapter plate on the back of the Cummins is made by DC, they would have no reason not to match the existing bellhousing pattern. The real question is are you going to keep this truck for 100,000+ miles to accumulate enough fuel savings to offset the cost of the engine swap? Well I got my answer, It's not cost effective. Unless something like engine failure occured there seems to be no real benifit to doing a swap like this. Even then it would probably be better to have a 360 installed. This is the 2nd V-10 in this truck, the first one failed at 17,000, something to do with porus castings I belive. Dodge replaced that engine at no cost. If this one goes it will be my dime then as the extended warrentee time limit is up. It seems to be doing just fine now but you never know.... BTW I pulled a 9,000Lb TT from Minnesota to San Francisco and back the engine didn't seem to notice any mountians : ] It did favor the pit stops but no problems. Oh I talked to a guy in a campground that says his Chevy truck is on it's 3rd Allison tranny. Of course I have no way of verifing his story but that don't sound good. Anyway thanks for the replys. Tom >> Also I see one post says I would have to change trannys 1 says not. I >> failed to mention I have an automatic tranny, I don't know if that makes [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The real question is are you going to keep this truck for 100,000+ miles > to accumulate enough fuel savings to offset the cost of the engine swap? food for thought. ive got a 360 in my durango and owned a 99 2500 v10 before i bought my 05 cummins. the 360 WILL NOT give you any better gas milage and the v10 will out pull it hands down. Signature-Chris 05 CTD 99 Durango 06 Liberty CRD "Will the highways on the Internet become more few?" --George W. Bush, Concord, New Hampshire; January 29, 2000 > Well I got my answer, It's not cost effective. Unless something like engine > failure occured there seems to be no real benifit to doing a swap like this. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > The real question is are you going to keep this truck for 100,000+ miles > > to accumulate enough fuel savings to offset the cost of the engine swap? |
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