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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / June 20062000 Dodge 2500 transmission problems
I noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive ( about 50 mph) the rpm's jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. Is it time for a rebuild ? I have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. How can you tell if it the TC or the transmission ? First, tell us what engine you have, so we'll know which trans you have. Second, let us in on you mileage and maintenance, as well as fluid level, color, and smell. Next, the shift into OD means the TC unlocks briefly, so the problem might be electronic, and its worth looking for codes. Last, the clutches involved are the OD in the OD section, and the front and rear in the main section. Have you noticed slipping in any other shift?  SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >I noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive ( > about 50 mph) the rpm's jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the > transmission is slipping. Is it time for a rebuild ? I have been > reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque > converter. How can you tell if it the TC or the transmission ? It has the CTD. 2500 with 4x4. It has 72000 miles and I don't know about trans. service. I've only had it a year. I had the fluid and filter changed. Filter was dirty and fluid was not real bad but dirty. This didn't help the problem. THe fluid didn't smell burnt. Thanks. ====== ====== > It has the CTD. 2500 with 4x4. It has 72000 miles and I don't know > about trans. service. I've only had it a year. I had the fluid and > filter changed. Filter was dirty and fluid was not real bad but dirty. > This didn't help the problem. THe fluid didn't smell burnt. Thanks. ======= ======= Diagnose the symptom through the PCM first, checking the data parameters and for codes. or....... guess........ A simple GOOGLE will help you with the guessing. ~:~ Marsh Monster ~tranny tech~ ~~doesn't guess~~ ~:~ > Filter was dirty and fluid was not real bad but dirty. It won't help the problem to change fluid, since the detergents in the new ATF would effectively clean out any dirt that had helped seals work. If the fluid was dirty, its not likely good news. Any debris in the pan? SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > It has the CTD. 2500 with 4x4. It has 72000 miles and I don't know > about trans. service. I've only had it a year. I had the fluid and > filter changed. > This didn't help the problem. THe fluid didn't smell > burnt. Thanks. > Next, the shift into OD means the TC unlocks briefly, so the problem might > be electronic, and its worth looking for codes. Not likely, if the OD switch is in the ON position the converter won't lock until after the 3-4 upshift. The converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the OD control switch in the OFF position, the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift. ====== ====== > if the OD switch is in the ON position the converter won't lock > until after the 3-4 upshift. > > The converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the OD control > switch in the OFF position, the converter lockup will then occur shortly > after the 2-3 upshift. ====== ====== true Fact, not Fiction ~:~ MarshMonster ~:~ > true > > Fact, not Fiction False. The FSM and my truck disagree with both Kunkle and the Marsh Mellow. TC lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > ====== > ====== [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > MarshMonster > ~:~ > False. The FSM and my truck disagree with both Kunkle and the Marsh > Mellow. That's funny, my FSM specifically states "If the overdrive control switch is in the normal ON position, the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth.........If the control switch is in the OFF position, the clutch will engage after the shift to third gear..... If your FSM states differently, quote here and give a page reference. > TC lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. Never said otherwise, the SEQUENCE in which the the lockup occurs depends on the control swotch position. BTW, what is your source for the claim that "the shift into OD means the TC unlocks briefly", is this a continuation of your perverted "major pressure drop" theory? >> ====== >> ====== [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> MarshMonster >> ~:~ > That's funny, my FSM specifically states "If the overdrive control switch > is in the normal ON position, the clutch will engage after the shift to > fourth.........If the control switch is in the OFF position, the clutch > will engage after the shift to third gear..... > If your FSM states differently, quote here and give a page reference. Sec 21, pg. 319, First paragraph, fifth sentence, "The converter clutch engages in third gear." Pretty clear, and is exactly what my truck does, regardless of the position of the OD on/off switch. I have CC LU at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear, depending on throttle position. CC LU is an electronic function, and is thus controlled by the ECM, not hydraulics. As such, the CC locks up when the ECM dictates. (21-323, 3rd paragraph, continued on 21-324) Converter clutch engagement in third or fourth gear range is by sensor inputs to the PCM, coolant temp, engine RPM, MPH, throttle position, and MAP, none of which are the OD on/off switch. This is in direct contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated, that the OD on/off is what dictates the CC LU event. Given that the book confirms BOTH of our statements, but that my TRUCK confirms MY statement, I'll take reality over a contradictory statement in the FSM. If you'd like to come ride in my truck and see for yourself, let me know when you'll be coming by. Frankly, I was as surprised as you will be, when it first happened, since I used to believe what you claim. However, once I read the FSM, it was clear that the PCM was free to do as it pleased based on electronic input, not printed statements. Furthermore, one of the issues facing this trans was the unlock/lock phasing when shifting. Also, aftermarket companies have made electronic control to drop LU events to as low as 18mph; it is highly unlikely that OD is engaged at that point. http://www.atsdieselperformance.com/ATSWebsite/ProductsDodge/Commander.asp >> TC lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. > > Never said otherwise, the SEQUENCE in which the the lockup occurs depends > on the control swotch position. No, it depends on the PCM programming. > BTW, what is your source for the claim that "the shift into OD means the > TC unlocks briefly", is this a continuation of your perverted "major > pressure drop" theory? Try actually reading the technical bulletins and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. That or come take a ride and I assure you, you'll feel the TC unlock, OD kick in, and TC LU re-occur. Argue on if you wish, I know what I've read, I know what my truck does, and I know it locks up the converter well under the 45MPH necessary for OD to kick in, and without cancelling OD on the shifter. I assume all other 2000 MY Cummins Rams do the same, unless I somehow got a PCM flash upgrade that no one else did. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >> False. The FSM and my truck disagree with both Kunkle and the Marsh >> Mellow. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >>> MarshMonster >>> ~:~ Thank you all for the information and advice. I took the truck to a highly reccomended local tranny shop and the owner diagnosed the TPS was the culprit. The manual he showed me said it was the ECM however he had seen this problem before and it was the TPS. He called the problem etching on the sensor. He ran a jumper wire from the TPS directly to the PCM, bypassing the ECM and the problem stopped. That is what the manual said to do, to pinpoint the problem. Now I am waiting on the new TPS to come in. WOW that little part is expensive, but better than a rebuild !!! Once again Thank You all for sharing your knowledge with me. > WOW that little part is expensive, > but better than a rebuild !!! The APPS (TPS) on a Cuimmins is about $400. Been there, done that. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > Thank you all for the information and advice. I took the truck to a > highly reccomended local tranny shop and the owner diagnosed the TPS [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but better than a rebuild !!! Once again Thank You all for sharing > your knowledge with me. >> WOW that little part is expensive, >> but better than a rebuild !!! > > The APPS (TPS) on a Cuimmins is about $400. Been there, done that. What the bloody hell?! Did that come with some synthetic 'back end' oil too? I thought the $17 I paid for the Holley TPS for my 99 5.2 was entirely too much, especially considering their first attempt only lasted about 80k miles... I should have saved my $17 toward a better cause, like replacing the whole engine with something that sucks less (360?) JS > What the bloody hell?! Did that come with some synthetic 'back end' oil > too? The APPS comes with a huge bracket and has been "calibrated" to be positioned properly once installed. Not saying its worth it, just saying thats how they justify it. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>> WOW that little part is expensive, >>> but better than a rebuild !!! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > JS John Kunkel wrote: >> That's funny, my FSM specifically states "If the overdrive control switch >> is in the normal ON position, the clutch will engage after the shift to >> fourth.........If the control switch is in the OFF position, the clutch >> will engage after the shift to third gear..... >> If your FSM states differently, quote here and give a page reference. Max Dodge Replied: > Sec 21, pg. 319, First paragraph, fifth sentence, "The converter clutch > engages in third gear." > > Pretty clear, and is exactly what my truck does, regardless of the > position of the OD on/off switch. Of course it engages in 3rd, I never said otherwise but it doesn't engage in 3rd if the OD control switch is ON. You aren't quoting the entire paragraph, just a selected sentence to bolster your argument. What does your FSM say in the description of operation "Converter Clutch Engagement"; the entire paragraph not just one selected sentence? Below is a link to the unedited description of clutch operation: http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg >I have CC LU at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear, depending on throttle >position. CC LU is an electronic function, and is thus controlled by the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >states what you have stated, that the OD on/off is what dictates the CC LU >event. As usual, you are purposely quoting out of context, of course the PCM controls the lockup, it also controls OD but all of the correct sensor inputs won't allow a shift to OD if the OD switch is in the OFF position; things change with the switch position but you have avoided any direct quotes with the term "overdrive control switch". > Given that the book confirms BOTH of our statements, but that my TRUCK > confirms MY statement, I'll take reality over a contradictory statement in > the FSM. Is it OK if I don't depend on your obviously biased observations? >>> TC lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. >> >> Never said otherwise, the SEQUENCE in which the the lockup occurs depends >> on the control swotch position. > > No, it depends on the PCM programming. No, it depends ENTIRELY on control switch position as my direct quote from the FSM states. >> BTW, what is your source for the claim that "the shift into OD means the >> TC unlocks briefly", is this a continuation of your perverted "major [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm talking about. That or come take a ride and I assure you, you'll feel > the TC unlock, OD kick in, and TC LU re-occur. How about referring to an actual quote from an actual "technical bulletin" rather than your usual generalizations. An invitation to travel 2500 miles for "a ride" is a hollow gesture from an equally hollow individual. > Of course it engages in 3rd, I never said otherwise but it doesn't engage > in > 3rd if the OD control switch is ON. The CC locks up in 3rd gear with the OD switch in the ON position, whether you like it or not. > You aren't quoting the entire paragraph, just a selected sentence to > bolster > your argument. False. I specifically noted the part that bolstered your argument. > What does your FSM say in the description of operation > "Converter Clutch Engagement"; the entire paragraph not just one selected > sentence? Pretty much what I said right here: >>Converter clutch engagement in third or fourth gear range is by sensor >>inputs to the PCM, coolant temp, engine RPM, MPH, throttle position, and >>MAP, none of which are the OD on/off switch. This is in direct >>contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated, that the >>OD on/off is what dictates the CC LU event. Try reading what I said. I made note of the ENTIRE paragraph. > Below is a link to the unedited description of clutch operation: > http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg Thats fantastic John, now read the line directly above the red underline. Says nothing about the OD switch, but does show where the PCM gets its parameters. >>I have CC LU at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear, depending on throttle >>position. CC LU is an electronic function, and is thus controlled by the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > As usual, you are purposely quoting out of context, A flat out lie, since I purposely directed your attention to the line which you have highlighted in your lovely picture. > of course the PCM > controls the lockup, it also controls OD but all of the correct sensor > inputs won't allow a shift to OD if the OD switch is in the OFF position; Yup, you say that, and I used to believe it, but ya know what? My PCM thinks differently, and anyone who'd like proof is welcome to come see/feel/hear it happen. Thus, the line prior to your favorite line seems to be correct. > things change with the switch position but you have avoided any direct > quotes with the term "overdrive control switch". Again, a lie, I directed your attention right to the line you want so much attention on. >> Given that the book confirms BOTH of our statements, but that my TRUCK >> confirms MY statement, I'll take reality over a contradictory statement >> in the FSM. > > Is it OK if I don't depend on your obviously biased observations? Sure, drop by, I'll show ya what my truck does. > No, it depends ENTIRELY on control switch position as my direct quote from > the FSM states. False. >> Try actually reading the technical bulletins and you'll see exactly what >> I'm talking about. That or come take a ride and I assure you, you'll feel >> the TC unlock, OD kick in, and TC LU re-occur. > > How about referring to an actual quote from an actual "technical bulletin" > rather than your usual generalizations. http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2000/21-02-00.htm > An invitation to travel 2500 miles for "a ride" is a hollow gesture from > an > equally hollow individual. Send a representitive. Until you can prove my truck is the only one that does this with OD on, I know that you are wrong. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > John Kunkel wrote: >>> That's funny, my FSM specifically states "If the overdrive control [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > an > equally hollow individual. >> Of course it engages in 3rd, I never said otherwise but it doesn't engage >> in >> 3rd if the OD control switch is ON. > > The CC locks up in 3rd gear with the OD switch in the ON position, whether > you like it or not. Not according to the FSM text that I provided a link to below. You love to claim that the FSM backs up your bogus arguements but when the FSM actually contradicts your claims you go into the double talk mode. >> Below is a link to the unedited description of clutch operation: >> http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg > > Thats fantastic John, now read the line directly above the red underline. > Says nothing about the OD switch, but does show where the PCM gets its > parameters. You're pathetic, read back in the thread, I never argued the engagement parameters, only the function of the control switch which you keep dancing around with your typical diversionary tactics. If you had a valid argument you wouldn't need to resort to your pathetic tactics. >>>I have CC LU at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear, depending on throttle >>>position. CC LU is an electronic function, and is thus controlled by the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > A flat out lie, since I purposely directed your attention to the line > which you have highlighted in your lovely picture. The UNHIGHLIGHTED text in the pic is what you quoted above, it is meaningless without the info on the control switch which I did highlight. >> things change with the switch position but you have avoided any direct >> quotes with the term "overdrive control switch". > > Again, a lie, I directed your attention right to the line you want so much > attention on. You're the liar. Refer to the line in this thread with date and time stamp where you said anything like that. >>> Given that the book confirms BOTH of our statements, but that my TRUCK >>> confirms MY statement, I'll take reality over a contradictory statement [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sure, drop by, I'll show ya what my truck does See the reference to "hollow gesture". I'm really not surprised that you "feel" the imagined shift sequence, after all you're the same one who claims to "feel" the improved shift after accumulator spring removal; another impossible fantasy. >> No, it depends ENTIRELY on control switch position as my direct quote >> from >> the FSM states. > > False. Your reading skills are as lacking as your knowledge, the underlined portion of the pic I posted clearly states "The clutch can be engaged in third or fourth gear depending on overdrive control switch position". That, combined with the highlighted portion clearly contradicts your claims. >>> Try actually reading the technical bulletins and you'll see exactly what >>> I'm talking about. That or come take a ride and I assure you, you'll [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2000/21-02-00.htm Atta boy Scotty, refer to a TSB that describes an ABNORMAL condition. Your original claim was that converter disengagenent at the upshift is a NORMAL condition. >> An invitation to travel 2500 miles for "a ride" is a hollow gesture from >> an >> equally hollow individual. > > Send a representitive. Until you can prove my truck is the only one that > does this with OD on, I know that you are wrong. Ah, the old Budd Cochrane rule, huh? Disregard logic and proven data and believe your claims? Birds of a feather. > Not according to the FSM text that I provided a link to below. You love to > claim that the FSM backs up your bogus arguements but when the FSM > actually contradicts your claims you go into the double talk mode. Actually, as I stated, it does back up my argument, no double talk about it. Next, my truck backs up my argument. I achieve 3rd gear lock up at about 32-35mph. I've checked the numbers, and there is no way its in 4th gear. I'll say it again, I've seen it happen, I don't give a damn what you have to say, or the rhetoric you spew. Anyone who would like to see it happen need only try it, or come see for themselves. > You're pathetic, read back in the thread, I never argued the engagement > parameters, only the function of the control switch which you keep dancing > around with your typical diversionary tactics. > If you had a valid argument you wouldn't need to resort to your pathetic > tactics. My "pathetic tactics" are nothing when compared to your bluster when you are proven wrong. > The UNHIGHLIGHTED text in the pic is what you quoted above, it is > meaningless without the info on the control switch which I did highlight. Um, WRONG, I specifically directed your attention to the line which you highlighted. See, thats just more of your bluster. > You're the liar. Refer to the line in this thread with date and time stamp > where you said anything like that. No problem John, right here: ------------- Path: nwrddc02.gnilink.net!cyclone2.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trnddc06.POSTED!9a3338ba!not-for-mail From: "Max Dodge" <max340@verizon.net> Newsgroups: alt.autos.dodge.trucks References: <1148963334.950185.227310@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <5xReg.6310$o%3.278@trndny07> <Ws-dnQ92SMapE-HZRVn-qg@comcast.com> <1149014862.179616.162540@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <473fg.9863$ho6.5550@trnddc07> <V7ydnbO4IMDVdODZnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d@comcast.com> Subject: Re: 2000 Dodge 2500 transmission problems Lines: 124 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response Message-ID: <faofg.12000$VL2.1795@trnddc06> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:47:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.18.67.149 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trnddc06 1149112075 70.18.67.149 (Wed, 31 May 2006 17:47:55 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:47:55 EDT Xref: news.verizon.net alt.autos.dodge.trucks:142382 X-Received-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:47:51 EDT (nwrddc02.gnilink.net) > That's funny, my FSM specifically states "If the overdrive control switch > is in the normal ON position, the clutch will engage after the shift to > fourth.........If the control switch is in the OFF position, the clutch > will engage after the shift to third gear..... > If your FSM states differently, quote here and give a page reference. Sec 21, pg. 319, First paragraph, fifth sentence, "The converter clutch engages in third gear." Pretty clear, and is exactly what my truck does, regardless of the position of the OD on/off switch. I have CC LU at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear, depending on throttle position. CC LU is an electronic function, and is thus controlled by the ECM, not hydraulics. As such, the CC locks up when the ECM dictates. (21-323, 3rd paragraph, continued on 21-324) Converter clutch engagement in third or fourth gear range is by sensor inputs to the PCM, coolant temp, engine RPM, MPH, throttle position, and MAP, none of which are the OD on/off switch. This is in direct contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated, that the OD on/off is what dictates the CC LU event. -------- See that last sentence John? Here, I'll paste it right here: "This is in direct contradiction to ****the next line which states what you have stated, that the OD on/off is what dictates the CC LU event."***** Yup, thats right John, in plain text, right before your very eyes, I made SURE that you knew that I had seen your reference and the exact sentence in the FSM. Sadly, you'll have to take htis up with the engineers, as all I know of the design is that it supposedly works BOTH ways, and my truck works as I have described. > See the reference to "hollow gesture". > I'm really not surprised that you "feel" the imagined shift sequence, > after all you're the same one who claims to "feel" the improved shift > after accumulator spring removal; another impossible fantasy. Well John, I figured you might be lame and try to bluster your way out of this, but the math confirms what I saw on the dash. 32MPH at about 1500RPM suddenly becomes 32MPH at about 1375RPM after a slight jolt..... do the math for yourself, its NOT in OD at that point. If you read the FSM, its not supposed to be in OD at that point. (For your math excursions, I have factory size tires on the truck) > Your reading skills are as lacking as your knowledge, the underlined > portion of the pic I posted clearly states "The clutch can be engaged in > third or fourth gear depending on overdrive control switch position". > That, combined with the highlighted portion clearly contradicts your > claims. Thats correct, and it contradicts the line immediately before it, where the FSM claims the CC is contolled by input from everything but the OD switch. It also contradicts what my truck does. Sorry it doesn't conform to your limited view of the world. I don't know why my truck does the LU at 32-35MPH, but its clear that it does. I'd even say its a bit odd the way it does it but then, as I've stated before, the electronics weren't always doing things logically in the 47RE transmissions. > Atta boy Scotty, refer to a TSB that describes an ABNORMAL condition. Your > original claim was that converter disengagenent at the upshift is a NORMAL > condition. It certainly is normal given that its a hydraulic function meant to safeguard the transmission. It is clearly shown how it works in both text and schematics in the very FSM you claim says it can't happen. What ISN'T normal is the LACK of either happening, as is indicated by the title of the TSB: 47RE Transmission - Delayed Upshift Or No TCC Engagement Between 30 and 50 MPH Thats right Johnny, if the title says its referring to an event that is delayed or not occurring, NORMAL means it SHOULD happen. Again, try reading the TSB. >> Send a representitive. Until you can prove my truck is the only one that >> does this with OD on, I know that you are wrong. > > Ah, the old Budd Cochrane rule, huh? Disregard logic and proven data and > believe your claims? Birds of a feather. No Johnny, its called proof, I have it, you don't, and all you have left is bluster, innuendo, personal attack and bullshit. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>> Of course it engages in 3rd, I never said otherwise but it doesn't >>> engage in [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > Ah, the old Budd Cochrane rule, huh? Disregard logic and proven data and > believe your claims? Birds of a feather. Max Dodge wrote in meesage: > Actually, as I stated, it does back up my argument, no double talk about it. > Next, my truck backs up my argument. I achieve 3rd gear lock up at about > 32-35mph. I've checked the numbers, and there is no way its in 4th gear. > I'll say it again, I've seen it happen, I don't give a damn what you have to > say, or the rhetoric you spew. Anyone who would like to see it happen need > only try it, or come see for themselves. ======== ======== Kunkles right...... yer wrong. Fact, not Fiction. Max, The proof IS NOT in the link you 2 are referring to. Maybe you should take the time diagnose the wording of the link with a non-biased approach. Take it for what it's stating and not what you want it to state. No where in the wording does it state that TCC applies in 3rd gear when the OD function is enabled. No where! And...that's the claim your making. That the link IS somehow supporting your statement that TCC applies in 3rd gear no matter what mode the buttton is commanding. Read the link with an open mind Max, because the wording is not there to support your claim. Now....... as to your gracious offer for a test ride to prove that your truck does apply th TCC no matter what mode the button is commanding......I'd love to take you up on it but it's a monetary thing you know. Me being in Florida and all...having bills to pay..limited income...kids...$950 a month house nut........well you get the picture. If your truck IS locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position the mode button is commanding..I'd suggest you concern yourself with the fact that it's highly possible something is amiss. You can perform googles till yer eyeballs glaze over and your NEVER going to find ANYTHING to support your claim that the workings of how you state your truck applies the TCC is factory programmed shift strategy from Dodge. Nothing!! However, If you subscribe to ATRA, TrNI, AllData, or MOD, you WILL find documented factual evidence to support Kunkles statements that TCC will not apply on a properly functioning tranny system in 3rd gear when the mode button is set to allow OD. Fact~not Fiction!! Refer back to the above reference of Goolgling............ if you'll spend some time trying to reinforce your statements by searching the tranny type by nomenclature and symptom, you're going to run across sites that will explain why the heat generation during TCC apply is a major problem with this "family" of trannies. Dodge did not program TCC apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for OD, for a specific reason. The more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated and the faster the unit is going to fail. This tranny was NOT designed to last, was NOT designed to perform in the applications we're discussing, but was designed to meet Federal guidelines for fuel efficiency. Which it does. But, it's also the weakest linkk in Dodge's CD applications. That's Fact~not Fiction. TCC apply in 3rd gear with an anticipated next shift into OD on CD that's going to basically "stack shift" from the factory on light to medium throttle accelleration is NOT going to happen because of factory programming, because DODGE....didn't want the extra heat being generated, didn't want the engine to lug, and NEVER programmed it in. You can harp on all you want to about your particuler vehical. But the fact of the matter is you've already stated in open forum that YOU are going by what YOU are feeling. I suggest you go to a tranny shop, get a FREE scan job on the system, and ride with the Tech. You WILL then see that your claims are disproven. FACT...not FICTION.! Now...... as a final plea to get you to do your homework (google)................ I refer you to the glutunous availability of after market add-ons that are designed to apply TCC, when you want it. again, go for that free scan job and ride with the tranny tech. My Modis, my Solus, My Mt2500......will all hook to a printer and spit out freeze frame data and "event logs". So will theirs. I let folks ride with me and look at data all the time. No prob. Worst case scenario...??... you'll then be able to post factuall evidence to support your claim and show me and Kunkle to be stupid. Wouldn't that be fun.?!! lastly.............. and a bit off topic.......... I'd bet my job on me being right. Fact, not Fiction!! (you hear that FM..?!!!!!!!!) ^ ^ o o L O ~:~ Marsh ~sips his crownroyal~ ~:~ > If your truck IS locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position > the mode button is > commanding..I'd suggest you concern yourself with the fact that it's > highly possible > something is amiss. I suggested that years ago, and found no proof of a problem, and in fact, found several supporting claims along with all of us being a bit surprised it worked that way. In fact, one of the specific instances I can get LU in 3rd (OD on) is when I accelerate slightly going up a slight grade, instead of kick down, I get LU. Which would suggest that...... > Dodge did not program TCC apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for > OD, for a specific > reason. The more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated > and the faster > the unit is going to fail. ... your preceding statement is false. If Dodge in fact wanted to lower trans temps, and figured less TC slip time would be an asset, then CC LU in 3rd gear would in fact do exactly that: cut slip time, and lower temps. As such, your previous statement contradicts itself, and proves that my slight acceleration inducing a CC LU would in fact do EXACTLY what you claim the designers wanted it to do: create less heat. > You can harp on all you want to about your particuler vehical. But > the fact of the > matter is you've already stated in open forum that YOU are going by > what YOU are feeling. No, I'm going by what I'm seeing on the tach and speedometer. I get a drop of approx 100RPM, after the 2-3 shift, and before the 3-4 shift. Its there, and I've seen it for 7 years now. The trans has performed flawlessly and has displayed no heat issues whatsoever. Small wonder, since LU will create less heat than unlocked. > No where in the wording does it state that TCC > applies in 3rd gear when > the OD function is enabled. No where! Does it state that what I have happening is impossible and/or abnormal? No, in fact it suggests just the opposite. Further, it suggests that OD would occur lower than 40-50MPH, and we know thats not possible either, right? SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > Max Dodge wrote in meesage: >> [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] > ~sips his crownroyal~ > ~:~ MarshMonster wrote: > > If your truck IS locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position > > the mode button is > > commanding..I'd suggest you concern yourself with the fact that it's > > highly possible > > something is amiss. Max wrote: > I suggested that years ago, and found no proof of a problem, and in fact, > found several supporting claims along with all of us being a bit surprised > it worked that way. In fact, one of the specific instances I can get LU in > 3rd (OD on) is when I accelerate slightly going up a slight grade, instead > of kick down, I get LU. Which would suggest that...... Marsh wrote: > > Dodge did not program TCC apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for > > OD, for a specific > > reason. The more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated > > and the faster > > the unit is going to fail. Max wrote: > ... your preceding statement is false. If Dodge in fact wanted to lower > trans temps, and figured less TC slip time would be an asset, then CC LU in > 3rd gear would in fact do exactly that: cut slip time, and lower temps. As > such, your previous statement contradicts itself, and proves that my slight > acceleration inducing a CC LU would in fact do EXACTLY what you claim the > designers wanted it to do: create less heat. Marsh wrote: > > You can harp on all you want to about your particuler vehical. But > > the fact of the > > matter is you've already stated in open forum that YOU are going by > > what YOU are feeling. Max wrote: > No, I'm going by what I'm seeing on the tach and speedometer. I get a drop > of approx 100RPM, after the 2-3 shift, and before the 3-4 shift. Its there, > and I've seen it for 7 years now. The trans has performed flawlessly and has > displayed no heat issues whatsoever. Small wonder, since LU will create less > heat than unlocked. Marsh wrote: > > No where in the wording does it state that TCC > > applies in 3rd gear when > > the OD function is enabled. No where! Max wrote: > Does it state that what I have happening is impossible and/or abnormal? No, > in fact it suggests just the opposite. Further, it suggests that OD would > occur lower than 40-50MPH, and we know thats not possible either, right? > > -- ========= ========= Max, in response to your last paragraph............... No! If doesn't make a clarified statement to that effect, true. however, concerning the way you say you can get lockup to "kick in" instead of the unit downshifting, sounds exactly like an aftermarket add-on computer that's programed to do exactly that. Now, no one can contridict you on what your posting as to the truck doing it for 7 years. It's your truck, you drive it, you seem to know, by however you do, that lockup IS kicking in on 3rd gear. So....I'm not going to try to convince you it isn't. I don't know. I do know that it's not supposed to by all the tech info I've come across and by the many diagnostic scan drives I've done on the system. With that said.......... check yer mail, if the addy is good. ~:~ mm ~sips his crownroyal~ > ========= > ========= [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > mm > ~sips his crownroyal~ ======== ======== Addendum, Max, With the above said, I'm posting on my experience with scanning these vehicals and the ATRA, MOD, and AllDatat literature that's available to me. but...... you say your truck has been checked over the years for several drivability issues and the lockup concern was discussed with techs at those times, who told you that the vehical was behaving normally. I'll take your word for it. you say you know others with the same vehical and theirs are behaving the same way with no problems over the years. I'll take your word for it. But........ I will be paying a little closer attention to the data pids on the ole Modis to see if maybe what I've been wanting to see............... isn't what is actually happening, and I'm going to go check in with the ATRA site and get some input from "all knowing" minds. any whooooooo....... It's curious that someone else with the same set up hasn't posted a pro or con on this subject. Regardless of what the AllData lit that I sent you stated, it seems your vehical does what you say it does with no adverse affects, and seemingly because of normal operation. a good topic......... one of interest to me because I like to think I'm on top of my game in this field, and may be wrong....... but..... not willing to admit it......yet.............. ^ ^ * 0 L O ~:~ mm ~pours kunkle a crown-n-coke......and passes max the mushroom tea~ ~:~ > however, concerning the way you say you can get lockup to > "kick in" instead of the unit downshifting, sounds exactly like > an aftermarket add-on computer that's programed to do exactly > that. This truck is, sadly, bone stock. No computers to enhance performance at all for either the diesel or the trans. > Now, no one can contridict you on what your posting as to the > truck doing it for 7 years. It's your truck, you drive it, you seem > to know, by however you do, that lockup IS kicking in on 3rd gear. I know because I can read a tach, a speedometer and I can count. Moderately heavy acceleration gets me TCC LU at about 45-50MPH, and OD at 60MPH, with TCC LU again at 61-62MPH. > So....I'm not going to try to convince you it isn't. I don't know. > I do know that it's not supposed to by all the tech info I've come > across and by the many diagnostic scan drives I've done on the > system. Everything I've read lacks any specific claim that TCC LU in 3rd with OD on should not occur. Since TCC LU is fed by second gear hydraulics, if this were truly a failure, the TCC would be able to LU in 2nd. It does not. It also unlocks for the 3-4 shift. The truck does this fairly smoothly (obviously its not like a Chrysler car) and its not any more abrupt than normal, and it is not bone jarring nor does the truck hesitate or balk. Given that it occurs in a variation of speeds and RPMs that are not only predictable (they occur at teh same points in travel and throttle), but coincide with the shift events that are claimed to be "normal", and all of the shifts and TCC LU events occur in accordance to TV pressure, it would be hard to explain it as "abnormal." SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > MarshMonster wrote: >> > If your truck IS locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > mm > ~sips his crownroyal~ > Everything I've read lacks any specific claim that TCC LU in 3rd with OD > on should not occur. Well you better bone up on your reading skills, the enclosed section of the FSM clearly states the normal modes of operation and it is unambiguous. http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg If engagement in 3rd were a normal condition the text would make no mention of the control switch position. > If engagement in 3rd were a normal condition the text would make no > mention of the control switch position. If engagement of CC in 3rd were abnormal, I'd have a P code. I don't. I'd have 0720 indicating a low spd sensor RPM, since TC slip would be nil. I'd have 0743 indicating TCC solenoid/trans relay circuits either open or shorted. I'd have 0783 (possibly) indicating an inability to complete 3-4 shift. I have none of these. There is no P code for abnormal lock up, or even 3rd gear lock up. Do tell, if its such a problem, why do I have no codes? SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >> Everything I've read lacks any specific claim that TCC LU in 3rd with OD >> on should not occur. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If engagement in 3rd were a normal condition the text would make no > mention of the control switch position. >> Not according to the FSM text that I provided a link to below. You love >> to claim that the FSM backs up your bogus arguements but when the FSM [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > have to say, or the rhetoric you spew. Anyone who would like to see it > happen need only try it, or come see for themselves. Whether or not your particular truck performs as per the FSM is irrelevant, what is relevant is your claim that the operation of your transmission is in accordance with the FSM. All of the lines of rhetoric boil down to these simple facts: FACT #1 My original post reads: "if the OD switch is in the ON position the converter won't lockup until after the 3-4 upshift." to which you replied with the following: " FSM and my truck disagree with both Kunkle (sic) and the Marsh Mellow". So, what you're saying there is that the lockup doesn't depend on the switch position and the FSM agrees with you but anybody who can read and comprehend the English language will see by the text in my provided link that (regardless of sensor input) the lockup DOES ultimately depend on the control switch and, therefore, the FSM is totally contradictory to your claim. By clearly stating that the FSM supports your contention, you got caught again in your own bullshit and then spent a thousand words trying to spin in your favor the fact that you did get caught. FACT #2 In your original post on this thread you clearly stated: "Next, the shift into OD means the TC unlocks briefly" and when challenged by me for backup you clearly stated: "Try actually reading the technical bulletins and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about." So, again you claim that the TC unlocks at the shift and that this is normal operation and that "technical bulletins" will back you up but when actually pressed for a reference to back it up you provide a link to a TSB describing a fault which is not normal operation. Again you got caught in your own bullshit and spent more words trying to backspin that. In the end, bullshit is your stock and trade. If you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without claiming to have backup tech references that don't exist or totally refute your claims. > If you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an > automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without > claiming to have backup tech references that don't exist or totally refute > your claims. Sage advice from one who, despite claiming to have proof, has yet to offer anything but personal attack as rebuttal. Try doing as you say. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>> Not according to the FSM text that I provided a link to below. You love >>> to claim that the FSM backs up your bogus arguements but when the FSM [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > claiming to have backup tech references that don't exist or totally refute > your claims. >> If you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an >> automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Try doing as you say. I'll offer the same proof that I have offered all along, a section from the FSM describing the operation of the converter clutch; the FSM description of normal operation completely refutes your claims that the FSM supports your version of normal operation. http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg The underlined sentence clearly states that the clutch operation is governed by the OD control switch position which is in direct contradiction to your claim that switch position doesn't matter. The highlighted section explains the sequence of application depending on switch position, and this completely refutes your claim that the FSM supports your contention that clutch application is ALWAYS after the 2-3 upshift. Regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics, the proof is right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any credible evidence. > Regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics, the proof is > right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves > that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any > credible evidence. Except that the line immediately prior to your highlighted info shows that the CC is contolled by the PCM using several parameters that do not include the OD switch. My truck confirms this as correct. All this despite your claims. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>> If you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an >>> automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any > credible evidence. >> Regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics, the proof is >> right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > All this despite your claims. Again your interpretive skills are as lacking as your general knowledge. http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg You place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and PCM, these in no way eliminate the function of the OD control switch; even if all of the PCM inputs say "lockup" the position of the control switch determines whether or not lockup will occur. This is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. The fact that the description of the sensor/PCM functions precedes mention of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions are seperate from or override the switch position. If the TCC LU was independent of the control switch there would be no mention of the switch position since the primary funcrtion of the control switch is to control the OD function. The simple fact that the FSM describes the function of the switch in relation to the TCC proves that the switch position is the determining factor in TCC LU. > You place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and > PCM, these in no way eliminate the function of the OD control switch; even > if all of the PCM inputs say "lockup" the position of the control switch > determines whether or not lockup will occur. This is clearly stated in the > highlighted paragraph. Since the input parameters are mentioned first, they get priority. They do not eliminate the OD switch function, they are a parallel to it. On my truck, the input parameters determine when CCLU occurs, not the OD switch. I also understand that it is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. Sadly, you have an inability to accept that 1) othe information contradicts that line, and that info is in the same paragraph, and 2) my truck contradicts that line, and does so without any problems or trouble codes and continues to do so after 7 years of flawless transmission performance. > The fact that the description of the sensor/PCM functions precedes mention > of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions are > seperate from or override the switch position. Sadly, you couldn't prove that if you tried. Further, the PCM is the only thing switching the TCC. So if it says engage, the TCC does it. What the FSM says about it tells me that there are parallel control parameters (input from sensors, input from OD switch) and one is a manual override. You may have been taught that the OD switch is the end all of control, but my truck says otherwise. As yet, there is nothing except your claim that says my truck is operating abnormally. No P codes, no odd trans behavior, no bucking and jerking, nothing. Except your whining that it can't possibly be the way it is. > If the TCC LU was independent of the control switch there would be no > mention of the switch position since the primary funcrtion of the control > switch is to control the OD function. I'd like to agree with you, but obviously the switch is mentioned, and my truck is busy laughing at your claims. So, I can't agree with you. > The simple fact that the FSM describes the function of the switch in > relation to the TCC proves that the switch position is the determining > factor in TCC LU. The simple fact that I have no P codes for a TCC failure, TCC circuit failure, TCC solenoid failure, or TCC electrical failure, indicates to me that there is no failure.... yet, I have TCC LU in 3rd with OD on. But contrary to what most would say, you'll claim to know it all, and diagnose my truck (that is over 2000 miles away from you) far better than the PCM bolted to the body of the truck. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>> Regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics, the proof is >>> right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > the switch in relation to the TCC proves that the switch position is the > determining factor in TCC LU. >> You place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and >> PCM, these in no way eliminate the function of the OD control switch; [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Since the input parameters are mentioned first, they get priority. They do > not eliminate the OD switch function, they are a parallel to Wrong, all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control switch ignores them. Oxygen sensors produce an output even when they're on the shelf in the parts department, does that mean they are controlling a mixture? >On my > truck, the input parameters determine when CCLU occurs, not the OD switch. > I also understand that it is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. > Sadly, you have an inability to accept that 1) othe information > contradicts that line, and that info is in the same paragraph, No contradiction at all, the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the control switch is the final determinung factor, you're just too stupid to read simple English. http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg >> The fact that the description of the sensor/PCM functions precedes >> mention of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions >> are seperate from or override the switch position. > > Sadly, you couldn't prove that if you tried. Further, the PCM is the only > thing switching the TCC. So if it says engage, the TCC does it. Not according to the text in the FSM, and I quote "If the overdrive control switch is in the normal ON position, the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth gear....". What part of that sentence is ambiguous? > What the FSM says about it tells me that there are parallel control > parameters (input from sensors, input from OD switch) and one is a manual > override. You may have been taught that the OD switch is the end all of > control, but my truck says otherwise. Screw your truck, it's not about your truck, it's about your claim that the FSM supports your version of normal operation; it doesn't. I'm not surprised that the FSM "tells you" other than the actual facts, misenterpreting the FSM is the story of your life. >> If the TCC LU was independent of the control switch there would be no >> mention of the switch position since the primary function of the control >> switch is to control the OD function. > > I'd like to agree with you, but obviously the switch is mentioned, and my > truck is busy laughing at your claims. So, I can't agree with you. Once again, it ain't about YOUR truck. And yes, the fact that the OD control switch is mentioned in a description of TCC operation that you claim is always the same regardless of switch position is damning to your assertions. > Wrong, all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control > switch ignores them. Oxygen sensors produce an output even when they're on > the shelf in the parts department, does that mean they are controlling a > mixture? Does the control switch ignore them? Nope. Why? Because the PCM is what toggles the OD and LU solenoids, not the switch. Take a look at the wiring diagrams if you don't believe me. The OD switch is between the PCM and ground. SInce all the switch does is produce an input to the PCM, I guess its the PCM that makes a choice on the OD and LU solenoids. > No contradiction at all, the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the > control switch is the final determinung factor, you're just too stupid to > read simple English. Enclosed paragraph apparently didn't inform the PCM, the wiring, or the guys designing either of them. >> Sadly, you couldn't prove that if you tried. Further, the PCM is the only >> thing switching the TCC. So if it says engage, the TCC does it. > Not according to the text in the FSM, and I quote "If the overdrive > control switch is in the normal ON position, the clutch will engage after > the shift to fourth gear....". > What part of that sentence is ambiguous? The part on page 8W-31-4 (or page 8W-15-12) of the FSM which shows that the OD switch doesn't electrically have anything to do with the OD function except to notify the PCM of driver choice. Thus, if the PCM were programmed to do so, it could pick a random interval from when you actuated the switch, or it could ignore the input altogether. On page 8W-30-7, you'll find that the transmission solenoid assembly cannot be actuated in ANY way unless the PCM does it. > Screw your truck, it's not about your truck, it's about your claim that > the FSM supports your version of normal operation; it doesn't. John, go unfuck yourself and look at the wiring diagrams, its pretty clear. > I'm not surprised that the FSM "tells you" other than the actual facts, > misenterpreting the FSM is the story of your life. Except when I have it correct. Which, much to your chagrin, I am. >> I'd like to agree with you, but obviously the switch is mentioned, and my >> truck is busy laughing at your claims. So, I can't agree with you. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > claim is always the same regardless of switch position is damning to your > assertions. Well, me and my damnned assertions will stand by what the wiring diagrams in the FSM, as well as the paragraph you quoted incessently, show to be true. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>> You place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and >>> PCM, these in no way eliminate the function of the OD control switch; [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > claim is always the same regardless of switch position is damning to your > assertions. >> Wrong, all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control >> switch ignores them. Oxygen sensors produce an output even when they're [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > diagrams if you don't believe me. The OD switch is between the PCM and > ground. So what? Without knowing the internal makeup of the PCM you can't make that assumption, it's more likely that when the OD switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed FSM quote. http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg >SInce all the switch does is produce an input to the PCM, I guess its the >PCM that makes a choice on the OD and LU solenoids. An assumption that is clearly contradicted in the FSM. >> No contradiction at all, the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the >> control switch is the final determinung factor, you're just too stupid to >> read simple English. > > Enclosed paragraph apparently didn't inform the PCM, the wiring, or the > guys designing either of them. Does the PCM control circuits when the ignition switch is in the OFF position? Does the PCM control the Speed Control when the main switch is OFF? According to your logic the PCM is a totally independent device that ignores everything but sensor inputs. >>> Sadly, you couldn't prove that if you tried. Further, the PCM is the >>> only thing switching the TCC. So if it says engage, the TCC does it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 8W-30-7, you'll find that the transmission solenoid assembly cannot be > actuated in ANY way unless the PCM does it. Another false assumption, without a schematic of the PCM you can't know how the OD switch interacts with the electronic internals, but the text in the description of operation clearly describes the function of the switch in very clear plain English. >> Screw your truck, it's not about your truck, it's about your claim that >> the FSM supports your version of normal operation; it doesn't. > > John, go unfuck yourself and look at the wiring diagrams, its pretty > clear. I have looked at the schematics and all that's clear is what wire is connected to what terminal, the claimed internal workings of the PCM are a product of your imagination. >> I'm not surprised that the FSM "tells you" other than the actual facts, >> misenterpreting the FSM is the story of your life. > > Except when I have it correct. Which, much to your chagrin, I am. I am awaiting the day when you "have it correct" but I doubt I'll live that long. At some point in elementary school we all learned that what separates humans from the "lower animals" is the ability to communicate by language, both verbal and written. It seems that some humans can't read a simple sentence and will expend hundreds of additional sentences trying to pervert the meaning of the original. > So what? Without knowing the internal makeup of the PCM you can't make > that assumption, it's more likely that when the OD switch is closed it > provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence > as is clearly stated in the enclosed FSM quote. > > http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg Ya aren't getting this are you? All the statements in the world don't mean squat. The wiring does. The solenoids are controlled by the PCM. Nothing else, just the PCM. The switch on the shift lever is simply an input, nothing more nothing less. I am sure that the PCM can be flashed to do whatever the programmer wants it to do with the solenoids given any parameters the programmer sets. >>SInce all the switch does is produce an input to the PCM, I guess its the >>PCM that makes a choice on the OD and LU solenoids. > > An assumption that is clearly contradicted in the FSM. Nope. Follow the wires. > Does the PCM control circuits when the ignition switch is in the OFF > position? Does the PCM control the Speed Control when the main switch is > OFF? > According to your logic the PCM is a totally independent device that > ignores everything but sensor inputs. Yup, that and power availablility are the only things the PCM cares about. Well, I suppose you could change its mode of operation by setting it on fire, or hitting it with a hammer, or flooding it.... but short of that, Yup, the PCM ONLY does what its inputs tell it to do based on programmed parameters. > Another false assumption, without a schematic of the PCM you can't know > how the OD switch interacts with the electronic internals, but the text in > the description of operation clearly describes the function of the switch > in very clear plain English. Which would mean that YOU are assuming that the PCM allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids in order to switch them. If this were true, why wouldn't the switch go directly to the solenoid? Face it John, you are grasping at straws. > I have looked at the schematics and all that's clear is what wire is > connected to what terminal, the claimed internal workings of the PCM are a > product of your imagination. No, they are the product of Chrysler engineers imagination. Apparently they "imagined" that the solenoid be controlled by the PCM, not the driver. > I am awaiting the day when you "have it correct" but I doubt I'll live > that long. Have you been looking at Marsh Monsters findings at all? I'd say you have a choice, shut up and save face, keep talking and look silly, or keel over so you won't live to see the day when I have something right. Or you could simply pull the Tbone defense: when faced with facts, deny deny deny! oh wait... you already do that. > At some point in elementary school we all learned that what separates > humans from the "lower animals" is the ability to communicate by language, > both verbal and written. > It seems that some humans can't read a simple sentence and will expend > hundreds of additional sentences trying to pervert the meaning of the > original. Agreed, now perhaps since you've identified the problem, you could figure out how to stop being the problem. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>> Wrong, all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the >>> control switch ignores them. Oxygen sensors produce an output even when [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > hundreds of additional sentences trying to pervert the meaning of the > original. >> So what? Without knowing the internal makeup of the PCM you can't make >> that assumption, it's more likely that when the OD switch is closed it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ya aren't getting this are you? All the statements in the world don't mean > squat. The wiring does. Once again, all the wiring shows is what what wire attaches to what, the "wiring" can't be used to prove the final operation. >>>SInce all the switch does is produce an input to the PCM, I guess its the >>>PCM that makes a choice on the OD and LU solenoids. Never said otherwise, but the PCM is configured by the position of the OD switch as is clearly explained in the FSM just as it is powered by the ignition switch. >> Does the PCM control circuits when the ignition switch is in the OFF >> position? Does the PCM control the Speed Control when the main switch is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yup, the PCM ONLY does what its inputs tell it to do based on programmed > parameters. Yup, and the choice of parameters is dictated by the OD switch position as clearly explained in the FSM. >> Another false assumption, without a schematic of the PCM you can't know >> how the OD switch interacts with the electronic internals, but the text [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > clear path to the solenoids in order to switch them. If this were true, > why wouldn't the switch go directly to the solenoid? I have no idea where you got that notion, I have never even remotely suggested that "the PCM allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids", another of your typical distortions. What I DID say, and this is a direct quote: "it's more likely that when the OD switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed FSM quote." http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg > Face it John, you are grasping at straws. Uh, uh, I'm trying to clear a path through your typical distortions to the truth which lies in one simple paragraph in the FSM. >> I have looked at the schematics and all that's clear is what wire is >> connected to what terminal, the claimed internal workings of the PCM are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they "imagined" that the solenoid be controlled by the PCM, not the > driver. That's the point of conjecture, the FSM clearly states that the sequence of TCC LU is in total control of the driver via the OD control switch. >> I am awaiting the day when you "have it correct" but I doubt I'll live >> that long. > > Have you been looking at Marsh Monsters findings at all? I'd say you have > a choice, shut up and save face, keep talking and look silly, or keel over > so you won't live to see the day when I have something right. I see nothing in his offering that supports one word of your assertions. > Once again, all the wiring shows is what what wire attaches to what, the > "wiring" can't be used to prove the final operation. Nor can the FSM, since it doesn't have any direct connection to the PCM or the solenoid. Funny how that works. > Never said otherwise, but the PCM is configured by the position of the OD > switch as is clearly explained in the FSM just as it is powered by the > ignition switch. 1) the lines you highlighted say nothing of the sort. There is NOTHING in the FSM which says CCLU cannot occur in 3rd gear with the OD switch in the on position. 2) the fact that my truck not only does what you claim cannot be done, but does it with inputs such as throttle position, speed, and RPM, AND does it without showing a trouble code, is enough evidence to say that 3rd gear CCLU occurs when the PCM determines, not the OD switch. Despite all your claims my truck works flawlessly, without trouble codes, and does what you say cannot happen. >> Yup, that and power availablility are the only things the PCM cares >> about. Well, I suppose you could change its mode of operation by setting [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yup, and the choice of parameters is dictated by the OD switch position as > clearly explained in the FSM. And sadly, the one not getting it is you. no where does it say that OD on locks out CCLU in 3rd gear. FSM page 21-353 section: NOTE; PCM inputs: Overdrive/override switch" FSM page 21-356 section: OVERDRIVE OFF SWITCH; OPERATION; "The switch is a momentary contact device that signals the PCM to toggle current status of the overdrive function." Take note that this is an INPUT, not a manual toggle, like you seem to believe. FSM page 21-323 section: TORQUE CONVERTER CLUTCH (TCC) second paragraph; "converter clutch engagement in third and fourth gear range is controlled by sensor inputs to the powertrain control module." Take note that the PCM relies on INPUTS, not manual switches. Take further note that nowhere in that section does the FSM say "TCC will not engage in third gear while OD switch is on." FSM page 21-340 section: SWITCH VALVE; "When the transmission is in Drive Second just before TCC application occurs (fig 42)......" second paragraph; "Once the TCC control valve has moved to the left (fig 43) line pressure is directed to the tip of the switch valve, forcing the valve to the right. The switch valve now vents oil from the front of the piston in the torque converter, and supplies line pressure to the (rear) apply side of the torque converter piston." Seems pretty clear that the PCM is NOT the only control over the CCLU function. THUS my statement that the PCM was a parallel control system. Since it is well known that CCLU function is available hydraulically in second gear not only because the FSM says so, but because many aftermarket companies have taken advantage of it, it follows without doubt that the CCLU function is available in 3rd gear to either the PCM OR the hydraulic control of the transmission. Since both are available, and have been exploited by the aftermarket, it hardly seems like a stretch for the factory engineers to make the function available to the PCM while in 3rd gear, OD on. > I have no idea where you got that notion, I have never even remotely > suggested that "the PCM allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids", > another of your typical distortions. What I DID say, and this is a direct > quote: "it's more likely that when the OD switch is closed it provides a > ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is > clearly stated in the enclosed FSM quote." Terrific John, then where does the PCM get a ground when the OD switch is NOT closed? And why can't that ground be used? Regardless, it simply shows that you are once again assuming you know how the PCM works by interpreting the words in the FSM. We both know that the PCM can be programmed to the whim of the programmer, and thus the CCLU function will occur whenever that program dictates that it should. > Uh, uh, I'm trying to clear a path through your typical distortions to the > truth which lies in one simple paragraph in the FSM. Sadly, both the hydraulic and electrical schematics disagree, as do other sections of the FSM. If you'd like to use ONLY that paragraph from the FSM, perhaps the best thing to do with the rest of the FSM would be to sell it on ebay and stick to your .jpg image. > That's the point of conjecture, the FSM clearly states that the sequence > of TCC LU is in total control of the driver via the OD control switch. Sadly, it states no such thing. >> Have you been looking at Marsh Monsters findings at all? I'd say you have >> a choice, shut up and save face, keep talking and look silly, or keel >> over so you won't live to see the day when I have something right. > > I see nothing in his offering that supports one word of your assertions. Try reading more of the FSM than one paragraph. SignatureMax "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) >>> So what? Without knowing the internal makeup of the PCM you can't make >>> that assumption, it's more likely that when the OD switch is closed it [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > I see nothing in his offering that supports one word of your assertions. >> Once again, all the wiring shows is what what wire attaches to what, the >> "wiring" can't be used to prove the final operation. > > Nor can the FSM, since it doesn't have any direct connection to the PCM or > the solenoid. Funny how that works. The FSM is the ultimate proof in the form of a clearly worded description of normal operation. http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg >> Never said otherwise, but the PCM is configured by the position of the OD >> switch as is clearly explained in the FSM just as it is powered by the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the FSM which says CCLU cannot occur in 3rd gear with the OD switch in the > on position. Nothing "says" it can. 2) the fact that my truck not only does what you claim cannot > be done, Once again, it isn't about your truck it's about your claim that the FSM supports your truck's mode of operation which it clearly doesn't; it clearly contradicts your claims. >> Yup, and the choice of parameters is dictated by the OD switch position >> as clearly explained in the FSM. > > And sadly, the one not getting it is you. no where does it say that OD on > locks out CCLU in 3rd gear. If you want to play specifics, where in the FSM does it specifically say the TCC can engage in 3rd with the OD switch in the ON position? What it clearly says is emphasized by the word NORMAL, with the OD controm switch in the NORMAL ON position the TCC will engage "after the shift to fourth". With the switch in the other than NORMAL OFF position it can engage in 3rd. If your unit operates differently it is not in accordance with the FSM and, therefore, the FSM DOES NOT support your claims. As an aside, it seems that all of your units operate out of the norm, your infamous Maxflite has the front pump in the rear, line pressure drops to zero at each shift and it falls out of gear at the shift "to ease the strain on the gears". > FSM page 21-353 section: NOTE; PCM inputs: Overdrive/override switch" > FSM page 21-356 section: OVERDRIVE OFF SWITCH; OPERATION; "The switch is a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Take note that this is an INPUT, not a manual toggle, like you seem to > believe. Another distortion, I never said anything that remotely resembles that. The momentary contact to ground merely configures a control circuit in the PCM as is clearly described in the FSM. > FSM page 21-323 section: TORQUE CONVERTER CLUTCH (TCC) second paragraph; > "converter clutch engagement in third and fourth gear range is controlled > by sensor inputs to the powertrain control module." Yep, AFTER the OD control switch commands the sequence of operation as is clearly stated in the enclosed paragraph. http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg > Take note that the PCM relies on INPUTS, not manual switches. If the INPUTS are by way of a manual switch your statement contradicts itself. >Take further > note that nowhere in that section does the FSM say "TCC will not engage in > third gear while OD switch is on. And nowhere does it say "The TCC will/can engage in third gear while the OD switch is on". Touche'. As usual you challenge me for specific wording but are unable to supply same. > Since both are available, and have been exploited by the aftermarket, it > hardly seems like a stretch for the factory engineers to make the function > available to the PCM while in 3rd gear, OD on. Tell the engineers to reword the FSM to match your version of operation. It hardly seems a stretch for factory engineers to include the OD on 3rd gear TCC engagement in the description of operation, it would take only a short sentence but they failed to include that info because it isn't intended to operate that way. What you can't grasp is the fact that the OD switch is the ultimate control of the TCC, the factory engineers wouldn't have gone to the bother of devoting a paragraph to it if it wasn't. Not including one simple sentence to back your claim speaks volumes. >> I have no idea where you got that notion, I have never even remotely >> suggested that "the PCM allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids", [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Terrific John, then where does the PCM get a ground when the OD switch is > NOT closed? And why can't that ground be used? Huh? Do you think the OD control switch is the only ground source for the PCM? Look at the wiring diagrams that you're so fond of citing, there are several "joint ground connections" and the PCM has dozens of connections to them. Numerous internal control circuits in the PCM use the joint grounds. The OD control switch supplies a momentary ground for the sole porpose of configuring the internal circuits, the actual ground for the transmission solenoids is provided by one of the joint ground connections. The fact that the internal OD control circuits default to ON at each ignition switch OFF/ON cycle shows that external controls override sensor inputs. At no time in this discourse have I even hinted that the OD control switch was the actual ground source for the solenoids. >Regardless, it simply shows that you are once again assuming you know how >the PCM works by interpreting the words in the FSM. We both know that the >PCM can be programmed to the whim of the programmer, and thus the CCLU >function will occur whenever that program dictates that it should. Never said otherwise, you're the one who claims that the FSM supports your description of normal operation and now you hint that special programming outside the normal parameters of the PCM explains your transmission's operation. Which is it? Your transmision is normal or your transmission has special programming? >> Uh, uh, I'm trying to clear a path through your typical distortions to >> the truth which lies in one simple paragraph in the FSM. > > Sadly, both the hydraulic and electrical schematics disagree, as do other > sections of the FSM. Sadly, as in the past, YOUR interpretations of both are a product of your vivid imagination. >If you'd like to use ONLY that paragraph from the FSM, perhaps the best >thing to do with the rest of the FSM would be to sell it on ebay and stick >to your .jpg image. One paragraph is all that's needed, it says all there is to say about the OD switch function in relation to the TCC operation. Everything else is your typical subterfuge to try to direct attention away from the single paragraph that says it all. >> That's the point of conjecture, the FSM clearly states that the sequence >> of TCC LU is in total control of the driver via the OD control switch. > > Sadly, it states no such thing. Sadly, you can't read. >>> Have you been looking at Marsh Monsters findings at all? I'd say you >>> have a choice, shut up and save face, keep talking and look silly, or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Try reading more of the FSM than one paragraph. So, we've jumped from "March Monster's findings" to the FSM? Cite the portion of MM's findings that relate to the RE series Torqueflite. Cite the parts of the Dodge truck FSM that deal with adaptive design. > The FSM is the ultimate proof in the form of a clearly worded description > of normal operation. > > http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg Sorry John, we've been over this. Its not proof, and I'm not going to accept it simply because you supplied a link to it again. >> 1) the lines you highlighted say nothing of the sort. There is NOTHING in >> the FSM which says CCLU cannot occur in 3rd gear with the OD switch in >> the on position. > > Nothing "says" it can. Except my truick, and the parallel systems as described by the FSM, aftermarket manufacturers, and some experts that Marsh says seem to agree with me. I've asked him to provide more info, but as yet, he has not. > 2) the fact that my truck not only does what you claim cannot >> be done, > > Once again, it isn't about your truck it's about your claim that the FSM > supports your truck's mode of operation which it clearly doesn't; it > clearly contradicts your claims. Sorry, you are incorrect. Please read all that I posted as proof that the systems are free to function outside what seems to be your limited understanding of them. >> And sadly, the one not getting it is you. no where does it say that OD on >> locks out CCLU in 3rd gear. > > If you want to play specifics, where in the FSM does it specifically say > the TCC can engage in 3rd with the OD switch in the ON position? I posted that information. You, the self proclaimed hydraulics expert on these transmissions should KNOW that the trans can engage CCLU in second gear, as THAT is what feeds the circuits to engage LU. The FSM says so, and so do the aftermarket guys. > What it clearly says is emphasized by the word NORMAL, with the OD controm > switch in the NORMAL ON position the TCC will engage "after the shift to > fourth". With the switch in the other than NORMAL OFF position it can > engage in 3rd. > If your unit operates differently it is not in accordance with the FSM > and, therefore, the FSM DOES NOT support your claims. Sorry John, I refer you to previously posted info which you seem to want to disregard. > As an aside, it seems that all of your units operate out of the norm, your > infamous Maxflite has the front pump in the rear, line pressure drops to > zero at each shift and it falls out of gear at the shift "to ease the > strain on the gears". Ah yes, the "I don't have facts, I'll use personal attack and insult to try and distract from the facts of my opponent" method. Nice try. >> FSM page 21-353 section: NOTE; PCM inputs: Overdrive/override switch" >> FSM page 21-356 section: OVERDRIVE OFF SWITCH; OPERATION; "The switch is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The momentary contact to ground merely configures a control circuit in the > PCM as is clearly described in the FSM. Correct, but YOU keep saying it supplies a ground for use by the PCM. I keep reminding you its merely an input that gives the PCM a parameter chosen by the operator. No distortion John, simply statement of fact, and now you seem to agree, which is no real surprise. >> FSM page 21-323 section: TORQUE CONVERTER CLUTCH (TCC) second paragraph; >> "converter clutch engagement in third and fourth gear range is controlled [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg Sorry John, but its not clear, and I posed that problem to you over a week ago. I have further shown why its not clear by posting more information. If you choose to disregard it, thats fine. But by disregarding facts as presented by the FSM, you show the fallability of your position. >> Take note that the PCM relies on INPUTS, not manual switches. > > If the INPUTS are by way of a manual switch your statement contradicts > itself. As you and I stated above, the OD on/off switch is not a manual swit |
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