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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / July 2006

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back pressure damage from clogged catalytic converter?

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Hãrõlð - 01 Jul 2006 21:54 GMT
I posted this to alt.autos.dodge this morning, and got no response, so
thought I'd try it here....

1989 Dodge B250 van, 318 cu.in., auto.  188,000 miles.....
I have noticed a big drop in power in the past few months, but it all
came to a  head this past week.  Here's the scenerio:  Driving down
the Interstate, cruise on, about 65 mph, when the engine suddenly gave
a whoosh sound, lost power, started missing, and black smoke pouring
out the exhaust.  I managed to limp off at the next exit at about 30
miles per hour, found a garage and get it looked at.  The engine
analyser showed 'bad O2 sensor', so had it replaced.  The mechanic at
the time mentioned if this didn't fix it then maybe the cat. converter
was bad, as small dust and particles fell out when he removed the O2
sensor.  I continued down the road, everything fine.  Next trip out,
the same thing, the whoosh sound, missing, smoke, etc.  This time, I
limped into a garage and explained the history of the problem and
asked if there was any way the cat. converter could be cut out, and a
straight pipe put in its place.  This was done to temp. get me home,
as they had no cat. converters or ability to get one.  The smog line
from the engine was also cut, and tack wleded to the side of the new
straight pipe.  Anyway, the cat. converter was in bad shape, once
removed.  The 'pack' has been 'worn' away at the inlet end, rounded
down, lots of dust and small particles in the shell of the thing, plus
the 'pack' had come loose and was floating around in there.  Started
the engine, lots of black smoke and particles came out, then cleared
up after about 5 miles driving.  The change in the power and engine
'feel' was amazing.  Much more peppy, etc.  Also, the last tank of gas
that I burned, filled up just after the cat. removal, got me 9.2 mpg,
instead of the normal 15.3 that I had been getting.  All in all, the
engine runs like a new one again.  After I got home, I replaced the
muffler, it was mushroomed and full of the same dust and particles.  I
recovered even more smooth running and power.  

Now, my concerns and questions:
This engine was obviously, to me, suffering from several months of
restricted exhaust flow, back pressure and the resulting buildup of
deposits inside the engine.  The only difference I can find now is the
valve chatter is somewhat louder when the engine is under a good load,
climbing a hill, etc.  From the drivers seat, I can't hear any normal
idling chatter, but with the doghouse off, it is really noisy at idle,
with some valve chatter.  I plan to change the plugs, check the timing
and distributor.  I don't plan to put the cat. converter back, unless
it requires it for the engine working properly.

My questions:
What is the likely long term result of running this engine for say 500
miles in this condition of restricted exhaust outlet?  

What is the chances that there is a lot of deposit buildup inside it?

What is the best way to clean these deposits out, if they are there?

What about the chatter under heavy load?  Can not having the cat.
converter in the exhaust system have changed the engine to the extent
that I need a gas booster or to go to a higher octane level gas?

Any help or thoughts will be appreciated.  

James

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Hãrõlð  
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
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SnoMan - 01 Jul 2006 22:02 GMT
Unless you overheated the motor doing this , the chance of any real
damage to it is light. You did stop it and take action when it got bad
which may have saved your engine. I would change oil and put in some
fresh oil and as far as lifter tick, given the miles on engine, I
would not worry much about it unless it starts getting worse.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com
Hãrõlð - 01 Jul 2006 23:26 GMT
>Unless you overheated the motor doing this , the chance of any real
>damage to it is light. You did stop it and take action when it got bad
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>The SnoMan
>www.thesnoman.com

Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts....
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Hãrõlð  
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
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Big Al - 02 Jul 2006 00:46 GMT
> Unless you overheated the motor doing this , the chance of any real
> damage to it is light. You did stop it and take action when it got bad
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The SnoMan
> www.thesnoman.com

Some of the crap may now be clogging the muffler. Take it off and see what
falls out when you hold the inlet down and shake it. On my car it looked
like all the stuff out of the converter was in the muffler.

Al
Hãrõlð - 02 Jul 2006 01:11 GMT
>> Unless you overheated the motor doing this , the chance of any real
>> damage to it is light. You did stop it and take action when it got bad
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Al

Yes, it did.  I replaced the muffler last week and the old one  was
mushroomed out, had lots of dust and pellets/particles in it..   It's
amazing the amount of junk that came from one screwed up converter...
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Hãrõlð  
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
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.boB - 02 Jul 2006 07:10 GMT
> I posted this to alt.autos.dodge this morning, and got no response, so
> thought I'd try it here....
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> James

    In theory, a clogged cat will put so much pressure back into the heads that the
exhasut valves can carbon up, burn, or even melt.  In theory.  If the engine seems to
run good, ignore it.  You could try putting some Sea Foam or marvel mystery oil in
the gas tank, but I don't think it will change much.  That engine will take an
incredible amount of abuse and still keep running.

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.boB
Arrived:  2006 FXDI, Red.
1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged   Stolen 11/26/05 in Denver
    1HD1GEL10VY3200010    CO License J5822Z
2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92
1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver
1965 FFR Cobra -  427W EFI, Damn Fast.

Hãrõlð - 02 Jul 2006 12:26 GMT
>> 1989 Dodge B250 van, 318 cu.in., auto.  188,000 miles.....
>> I have noticed a big drop in power in the past few months, but it all
>> came to a  head this past week.  Here's the scenerio:  Driving down
>> the Interstate, cruise on, about 65 mph, when the engine suddenly gave
>> a whoosh sound, lost power, started missing, and black smoke pouring

>> and distributor.  I don't plan to put the cat. converter back, unless
>> it requires it for the engine working properly.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>the gas tank, but I don't think it will change much.  That engine will take an
>incredible amount of abuse and still keep running.

Thanks for the reply.  That is reassuring.....Have you ever poured
Marvel Mystery oil, or similar down the carb on a vehicle to clean
things out?  Any experience with the various brands of 'engine
restorer"?
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Hãrõlð  
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
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.boB - 02 Jul 2006 19:56 GMT
> Thanks for the reply.  That is reassuring.....Have you ever poured
> Marvel Mystery oil, or similar down the carb on a vehicle to clean
> things out?  Any experience with the various brands of 'engine
> restorer"?

   I've put MMO in the fuel tank as a carb cleaner.  That seemed to work OK.  I also
use B-12 Chemtool as a carb and injector cleaner.  I do that every so often, usually
when I'm in the parts store and I happen to think about.  I put a fair amount of
miles on my vehicles, use cheap gas, and I never seem to have any trouble with
clogged jets or injectors.
   I've used Restore on a number of vehicles over the years.  It does seem to help.
 Cut's down on oil burning anyway.  Years back I tried a product called Matrix.
Very expensive, and there was more to it than just dumping it into the crank case.
Didn't do a thing; huge waste of time and money.
   About 15 years ago I had a '69 Mustang with a 351W engine.  On cold startup (esp
in the winter) the valves would really clatter for about 30 sec, and then fade away.
 I put in a can of Slick 50, and the valve clatter went away.  Didn't do anything
else, though.  No change in performance, still burned the same amount of oil, no
change in fuel mileage.  5 years later I rebuilt the engine and it was pretty clean
inside.
    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it ;)
Signature

.boB
Arrived:  2006 FXDI, Red.
1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged   Stolen 11/26/05 in Denver
    1HD1GEL10VY3200010    CO License J5822Z
2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92
1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver
1965 FFR Cobra -  427W EFI, Damn Fast.

SnoMan - 03 Jul 2006 10:35 GMT
>In theory, a clogged cat will put so much pressure back into the heads that the
>exhasut valves can carbon up, burn, or even melt

I question your theory. The biggest danger here is engine over heating
and damamgeing headgasket and other engine parts, not burning exhaust
valves.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com
Big Al - 03 Jul 2006 16:20 GMT
> >In theory, a clogged cat will put so much pressure back into the heads that the
> >exhasut valves can carbon up, burn, or even melt
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> -----------------
> The SnoMan

And, ruining the EGR valve. They get very hot when the converter plugs. On
my vehicle I was lucky, the converter plugged so tight the engine just quit.

Al

Al
sqdancerLynn - 03 Jul 2006 08:16 GMT
I'm suprised a mechanic removed the cat, IT is very illegal to remove it.
NOT haveing it can screw up the O2 sensor readings
Hãrõlð - 03 Jul 2006 14:20 GMT
>I'm suprised a mechanic removed the cat, IT is very illegal to remove it.
>NOT haveing it can screw up the O2 sensor readings

That's why I didn't use location details, being under the table,
emergency, 'gotta get home' work, with a wink , a nudge, and cash
money...:)  

How does not having it  screw up the O2 sensor- specifically---fule
mixture, idle speed, timing, advance?  I wondered what, if any effect
that would have.  Although now is so much better than then....
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Hãrõlð  
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
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Tom Lawrence - 03 Jul 2006 20:23 GMT
> How does not having it  screw up the O2 sensor- specifically---fule
> mixture, idle speed, timing, advance?  I wondered what, if any effect
> that would have.  Although now is so much better than then....

It doesn't.... it will only affect an OBD-II-equipped vehicle, with a
post-cat O2 sensor.  And even at that, all it will do is light up the Check
Engine light, due to the post-O2 sensor being out of whack.  However, the
post-cat O2 sensor has nothing to do with fuel injection control - it's just
an emissions cop.

You're pre-OBD-II vehicle will have no issue running without a cat - except
maybe for a decrease in peak torque because of lower-than-designed
backpressure in the exhaust system.  Stick a half of a potato in the exhaust
pipe to compensate  :^)
clare at snyder.on.ca - 04 Jul 2006 03:04 GMT
>My questions:
>What is the likely long term result of running this engine for say 500
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Any help or thoughts will be appreciated.  

First things first - about the "valve chatter" under load. If it is
under load, more likely than not you have spark knock, or ping. Try a
tank of PREMIUM fuel and see if it is better. If so, you need to find
out why/ If your EGR is not working, that could be part of it. Or you
could have a good dose of carbon in the cyls.
If the premium does not solve it, it MAY be valve lifters. Change the
oil. Put in10W30 or 10W40 with one quart of "marvel mystery oil" and
see if it gets better in about half an hour of driving.
If the premium makes it better, put a can of fuel injector cleaner in
the tank and/or get a can of combustion chamber cleaner (your GM
dealer will have it, your chrysler dealer should.)Follow the
instructions on the can.

The lack of the converter will NOT cause an engine to require higher
octane fuel, but a 318 with 188,000 on it may very well like mid
premium.

>James

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Hãrõlð - 04 Jul 2006 13:23 GMT
>>My questions:
>>What is the likely long term result of running this engine for say 500
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>octane fuel, but a 318 with 188,000 on it may very well like mid
>premium.

I haven't tried the premium fuel yet, and just yesterday bought
sparkplugs, pcv valve, oil filter and oil, air filter, a can of
Mystery oil for the crankcase and maybe down the intake, a can of
premium Gumout fuel and engine cleaner.  Gonna do all that tomorrow or
Thurs. and will report back with the results.  Thanks for the
ideas....and the reassurance...lol
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Hãrõlð  
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
E-Mail munged--Remove the obvious

 
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