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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / September 2006

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Backing up boat trailer - tailpipe underwater

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fp@odonnelldrg.com - 14 Sep 2006 18:48 GMT
I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
comes on. Last week just after leaving the engine runnig while i loaded
the boat - the valves started knocking really loud and now I have a
hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.
Advocate - 15 Sep 2006 04:28 GMT
>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
> goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
> comes on. Last week just after leaving the engine runnig while i loaded
> the boat - the valves started knocking really loud and now I have a
> hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
> ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.

Err, perhaps you are backing your vehicle too far into the water...just a
guess.
SnoMan - 15 Sep 2006 06:50 GMT
>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
>comes on. Last week just after leaving the engine runnig while i loaded
>the boat - the valves started knocking really loud and now I have a
>hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
>ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.

You did not state is the exhaust was stock or not but I have a theory
here as to what likely may have happened. When your engine idles there
is actaully a negative pulse several times a second in the exhaust
system due to low flow and a combination of sonic wave travel and the
rapid cooling of the exhaust gas. When you placed tailpipe in the
water it started to ingest a little water during the negative pulses
and it worked its way up into the system further which further cooled
the pipes and gas and increased the draw of water into system and it
may have gotten into engine itself. If you have a dual exhaust it
would actual tend to be more prone to this yet because the quicker
expansion and cooling of gas at a idle and stronger negative pressure
pulses. Expensive lesson for sure. If you want to avoid this in
future, keep tail pipes out of water and place a restrictor in pipe(s)
durring this time so the a higher pressure is maintained during idle
cycle which reduce the negative pulse to zero. If you have duals, go
back to a stock exhaust.  
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Roy - 15 Sep 2006 13:57 GMT
>>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You did not state is the exhaust was stock or not but I have a theory

I have a theory too.

My theory is that before you give anymore bs answer's you should revisit all
the other threads in which you have posted incorrect info, answer's and
advice. You probably should start with the V10 thread., then move to the
transmission bolts thread. I'm sure even you can grasp the theory.

Roy
SnoMan - 15 Sep 2006 15:23 GMT
>I have a theory too.
>
>My theory is that before you give anymore bs answer's you should revisit all
>the other threads in which you have posted incorrect info, answer's and
>advice. You probably should start with the V10 thread., then move to the
>transmission bolts thread. I'm sure even you can grasp the theory.

I have another theory and it is that you are full of s#!t Roy but
knock yourself out if it makes you feel good. People like you need
help and help that you need you will not find need here. Anything that
you do not understand you start your BS and show your total real lack
of understanding.  You must be a very insecure person. (it shows)
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Roy - 15 Sep 2006 16:15 GMT
>>I have a theory too.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I have another theory and it is that you are full of s#!t Roy

Hole, who has been posting wrong and misleading info?  You!

>but
> knock yourself out if it makes you feel good. People like you need
> help and help that you need you will not find need here.

Hole, people like you should have their keyboard taken away.

> Anything that
> you do not understand

Hole, if I don't understand I ask questions. I don't post wrong answer's to
request's for info. If I don't have the answer I don't say anything, you on
the other hand can't seem to help yourself and post wrong info.

>you start your BS and show your total real lack
> of understanding.

Hole, your lack of understanding was shown in the V10 thread when you posted
wrong info. Again in the transmission thread your info was wrong and if
applied could have resulted in damage.

>You must be a very insecure person. (it shows)

I'm insecure? Nope, I just have a thing with people who spout off bullshit
answer's that are totally wrong. Again I invite you to return to those
threads that you posted wrong info in and answer the questions that followed
your posts.
That should be pretty simple. Now we will see by your actions who is really
insecure.

Oh, just for your head, this situation will NOT go away until YOU take
corrective action.

> -----------------
> TheHoleMan.com
Denny - 15 Sep 2006 23:42 GMT
>>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
>>comes on. Last week just after leaving the engine runnig while i loaded
>>the boat - the valves started knocking really loud and now I have a
>>hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
>>ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.

I'm gonna hate myself for this......

> You did not state is the exhaust was stock or not but I have a theory
> here as to what likely may have happened.

And as usual your theory is a tad bit far-fetched..

When your engine idles there
> is actaully a negative pulse several times a second in the exhaust
> system due to low flow and a combination of sonic wave travel and the
> rapid cooling of the exhaust gas.

I'm sure you read this in a book somewhere and picked up on the theory of it
but didn't finish reading the chapter.

When you placed tailpipe in the
> water it started to ingest a little water during the negative pulses
> and it worked its way up into the system further which further cooled
> the pipes and gas and increased the draw of water into system and it
> may have gotten into engine itself.

I'd pay good money for you to demonstrate this in the real world. I'd even
let you use my own personal truck. I'd even drive down to Dayton (close
enough) for you to do it. Maybe, just maybe if the engine in this
demonstration had enough non-sealing exhaust valves, no muffler or cat
converter it might do this but I really doubt it. Think of this, an engine
is an air pump. If the engine is to stay running, it must be moving air.
While a little water may get inside the tailpipe, do you really think that
water will take on the charactoristics of a salmon and swim it's way thru a
muffler, ten feet of pipe and a cat converter while battling that flow of
air coming thru the pipe?? I think you're confused this issue with the issue
of an exhaust manifold gasket leaking that can suck in cold air and burn a
valve.

If you have a dual exhaust it
> would actual tend to be more prone to this yet because the quicker
> expansion and cooling of gas at a idle and stronger negative pressure
> pulses. Expensive lesson for sure. If you want to avoid this in
> future, keep tail pipes out of water and place a restrictor in pipe(s)

A restrictor in the pipe?????  Muffler or cat converter fit this
description???

I think I'd rather try to reason with my three year old grandcritter..

Denny

> durring this time so the a higher pressure is maintained during idle
> cycle which reduce the negative pulse to zero. If you have duals, go
> back to a stock exhaust.
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
SnoMan - 16 Sep 2006 00:42 GMT
>>>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>>>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>I'm gonna hate myself for this......

Why?

>> You did not state is the exhaust was stock or not but I have a theory
>> here as to what likely may have happened.
>
>And as usual your theory is a tad bit far-fetched..

Not at all. It is very logical and bases on the physics of expanding
and cooling gasses.

>When your engine idles there
>> is actaully a negative pulse several times a second in the exhaust
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I'm sure you read this in a book somewhere and picked up on the theory of it
>but didn't finish reading the chapter.

You should do the reading because it you applied a vacum gage to the
exhaust system at a idle you would find that a negative plus does
exist at a idle at time and it would be worse with duals.

> When you placed tailpipe in the
>> water it started to ingest a little water during the negative pulses
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>of an exhaust manifold gasket leaking that can suck in cold air and burn a
>valve.

The water would not have to "swim" up the pipe as it would be drwan up
it by the negative plus durring low flow at a idle and it would be
self feeding in that as the water got in there it would cool the gases
more and increase the strength of the negative pulses. ALso you must
factor the angle of the ramp because if it is a shallow angle it would
be easier for the water to be drawn up into it. People tend to think
that there is always psotive pressure in the exhaust system but this
is not always the case at a idle with a low restriction system. Hold a
piece of paper over exhaust outlet at a hot idle and watch how it is
drwan tight against it several times a second and the  lowe the
restriction of the exhaust, the more noticable it is at times. A
diesel would not have this problem because it moves a lot of air
through system all the time because there is no throttle valve
limiting the intake air flow.

> If you have a dual exhaust it
>> would actual tend to be more prone to this yet because the quicker
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>A restrictor in the pipe?????  Muffler or cat converter fit this
>description???

No a cat would not fit this bill you would need to have a more
restrictive exhaust so that a negative pressure never developes and
this could be done temporarily with a retrictor inserted into pipe(s)
outlet when it water.

>I think I'd rather try to reason with my three year old grandcritter..

Only if you are on that level too and if it makes you more
comfortable. I do not make the rules of physics but I know how to
apply them which some do not so they dismiss it as hogwash. I have yet
to see another possible plausable theory that could explain this
posted here. Do not shoot the messanger because you do not understand
the message. There is a LOT more to the dynamics involved here than
people realize.

>Denny
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> -----------------
>> TheSnoMan.com

-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
theguy@whatever.net - 16 Sep 2006 01:00 GMT
>>>>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>>>>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Not at all. It is very logical and bases on the physics of expanding
>and cooling gasses.

dood, the only expanding and cooling gasses you got is in your pants.

>>When your engine idles there
>>> is actaully a negative pulse several times a second in the exhaust
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>exhaust system at a idle you would find that a negative plus does
>exist at a idle at time and it would be worse with duals.

what?  

>> When you placed tailpipe in the
>>> water it started to ingest a little water during the negative pulses
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>-----------------
>TheSnoMan.com
Roy - 16 Sep 2006 01:36 GMT
Hey Hole!! Never mind the BS here. Go back up a couple of post's and answer
the questions!!!

Oh, I've adjusted your sig so that is more reflective of your BS. I think it
is much more fitting don't you?

> TheHoleMan.com
Mike - 16 Sep 2006 02:09 GMT
>>>>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>>>>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>>> -----------------
>>> TheSnoMan.com

  As usual it appears you pulled this * theory * out of your a.s. Where do
you get all these bullshit *theories* from ?  I can tell you for a FACT you
are full of sh.t, as usual.  I have owned four wheel drive trucks for the
past 30 years and use them off road quite often. I have owned 4, 6 and 8
cylinder trucks with stock exhaust, dual exhaust, headers, with converters
and without converters. I have had them idling in deep water and shallow
water at any angle you can imagine. I have even shut them off while in the
water.  NOT ONCE have I had a problem with water entering the engine through
the exhaust.  I have been on organized four wheel drive runs where there
were dozens of other vehicles in the group. NOT ONCE did anyone have a
problem with water entering an engine through the exhaust. I have to call
bullshit on your *theory*.

 Now the OP stated that he needed his lifters replaced. Now I would like
you to explain how water got into his lifters through the exhaust without
doing any other damage to his engine ?  I can't wait to hear this *theory*.
<BFG>

 And while you are explaining things I would also like to know where the
knock sensor is on a V-10 engine in a dodge pick up.
SnoMan - 16 Sep 2006 02:54 GMT
>Sadly, your hypothesis is badly flawed in spite of your assumed knowledge of
>the physics of expanding and cooling gases which actually have little or
>nothing to do with your "theory"

The said part is you are wrong but since you do not understand the
dynamics involved, your figure it is BS

>First, yes, there is a "slight" negative pulse however this pulse is grossly
>outweighed by the positive flow of hot exhaust gases.  If your hypothesis
>were true and an exhaust system on an otherwise healthy engine could indeed
>ingest water, how could the exhaust gases ever escape to overcome the
>negative pressure?  Yet, miraculously, somehow they do.

You are missing the point here. It is a cycle that purculates the
water up the exhaiut system. The flow of hot gasses at a idle is very
very low. because of to reasons, one is that most of the energy is
caputred in the engine via expansion in the cylinder and the rest of
most of the heat is lost to engine block and exhaust so the air flow
is very low. The net positive air flow is about 15 to 20 CFM at
atmospheric pressure or about 10 CFM per pipe with duals. The peak
pulse velocity is about 7 FPS (little more than a light breeze) when
pulse is first started  but after pulse a negative wave it created is
back pressure is low. (this is because the average pressure is so low
that it allows a negative cycle to form) THis creates a vacum that
sucks water up and the negative pulse is longer in duration so it
travels up pipe and is not expeled unless volume of gas in pipe is
increase to a point that the average pressure is high enough that when
the negative impluse cycle starts that it does not go negative enough
to offset the postive pressure in pipe in relation to atmospheric
pressure.  Simple physics here but too simple for some.

>Also, to test the veracity of your hypothesis, travel to any lake nearby
>your home and look for an old fashioned inboard runabout.  Somehow, they
>manage to avoid water ingestion without the need of restrictors or any other
>such nonsense.

A inboard runabout has a exhaust system baffled and designed to be
under water duh.... a car does not.

>Your really should take the time to review your theories before exposing
>them to public ridicule.

You should take time to read more and learn before you shoot down
something you do not understand. You know I worked on the GPS system
proto types almost 30 years ago when government tested it under the
MilStar projet name. I can tell you EXACTLY how it works and why
because the theory of operation has not changed to this day on it
though the packaging has. (youcan kinda thank me if you use one today
in any form becuase myself with others worked the bugs out if it back
then) There are three types of people in newsgroups, those that want
to share knowledge, (myself) those that do not know and want to attack
others or cause trouble on things they do not understand for a notch
on their holster (you) and those wanting to find the real reasons way.
People such as yourself tends to hurt those that are asking for a
solution or cause to begin with and if you do not understand the
subject completely, do not comment on it.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Mike - 16 Sep 2006 03:13 GMT
>>Sadly, your hypothesis is badly flawed in spite of your assumed knowledge
>>of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The said part is you are wrong but since you do not understand the
> dynamics involved, your figure it is BS

     >rest of bullshit snipped<

 The sad part is you are a moron incapable of using a news reader properly.
The header indicates you are replying to me but the text is not my post. I
will repost what I wrote, see if you can follow along this time.

   As usual it appears you pulled this * theory * out of your a.s. Where do
you get all these bullshit *theories* from ?  I can tell you for a FACT you
are full of sh.t, as usual.  I have owned four wheel drive trucks for the
past 30 years and use them off road quite often. I have owned 4, 6 and 8
cylinder trucks with stock exhaust, dual exhaust, headers, with converters
and without converters. I have had them idling in deep water and shallow
water at any angle you can imagine. I have even shut them off while in the
water.  NOT ONCE have I had a problem with water entering the engine through
the exhaust.  I have been on organized four wheel drive runs where there
were dozens of other vehicles in the group. NOT ONCE did anyone have a
problem with water entering an engine through the exhaust. I have to call
bullshit on your *theory*.

 Now the OP stated that he needed his lifters replaced. Now I would like
you to explain how water got into his lifters through the exhaust without
doing any other damage to his engine ?  I can't wait to hear this *theory*.
<BFG>

 And while you are explaining things I would also like to know where the
knock sensor is on a V-10 engine in a dodge pick up.
aarcuda69062 - 16 Sep 2006 03:18 GMT
>  You know I worked on the GPS system
> proto types almost 30 years ago when government tested it under the
> MilStar projet name.
<snip>

Okay, so you and Al Gore invented the GPS system 30 years ago...
Thing is, your theory about negative exhaust pulses "percolating"
water up the tail pipe in no way explains how his -lifters- got
damaged as a result.

Gotta say, you've really outdone yourself this time Snojob.
Roy - 16 Sep 2006 03:36 GMT
Hole, I snipped all your useless BS. Now before you make a total a.s of
yourself again in this thread why don't you go back to the other threads
where you have proven to be a total a.s and correct your mistakes? You are
really spreading yourself thin here.

With regards to your sig, remember I said before that you weren't worthy of
being called a a.shole and I was going to address you as Hole. Well, looking
at your sig I think for appearance sake the a.s sorta fits. What do ya
think?
It does have a certain ring to it.
> TheAssHoleMan.com
Carolina Watercraft Works - 16 Sep 2006 04:23 GMT
Can we ever ever stay on the topic of the thread?  No offense...but
each thread eventually turns into a bash session.  Not disagreeing
with the reasons.  It's my experience that just simply ignoring the
root cause of the BS usually helps.

Signature

------------------------------------------
Laszlo Almasi
----Cool Toys (formerly Carolina Watercraft Works)
----Mack Daddy Trailers
----Ice Angels

> Hole, I snipped all your useless BS. Now before you make a total a.s of
> yourself again in this thread why don't you go back to the other threads
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It does have a certain ring to it.
>> TheAssHoleMan.com
MoParMaN - 16 Sep 2006 05:00 GMT
> Can we ever ever stay on the topic of the thread?  No offense...but
> each thread eventually turns into a bash session.  Not disagreeing
> with the reasons.  It's my experience that just simply ignoring the
> root cause of the BS usually helps.

Prolly not, it would be boring as hell if we did.

Signature

MoParMaN---Remove Clothes To Reply
--SCUD Coordinates 32.61204 North: 96.92993 West--

Roy - 16 Sep 2006 05:11 GMT
> Can we ever ever stay on the topic of the thread?

The OP and the topic has been pretty much addressed by you and a couple of
others.

> No offense...but
> each thread eventually turns into a bash session.

When it comes to Hole and his dangerous and misleading BS there is a pretty
good chance that will happen

> Not disagreeing
> with the reasons.  It's my experience that just simply ignoring the
> root cause of the BS usually helps.

The root seems to want to continue and as long as he does I'll me there to
address it. Believe me I'll have plenty of time to. I'm out of work for at
least 3 weeks due to a OJI. So Laz, you and the rest have my apologies but
we all deal with things differently. Imo, Hole is a dangerous person who
posts wrong, misleading and dangerous info and advice that will cause one
who does what he advocates in his post'ws to damage something or possibly
get hurt.
So ignoring is not going to cut it as I see it.

Again my apologies if you and other's are offended.

Roy

>> Hole, I snipped all your useless BS. Now before you make a total a.s of
>> yourself again in this thread why don't you go back to the other threads
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> It does have a certain ring to it.
>>> TheAssHoleMan.com
Denny - 16 Sep 2006 09:47 GMT
>>Sadly, your hypothesis is badly flawed in spite of your assumed knowledge
>>of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The said part is you are wrong but since you do not understand the
> dynamics involved, your figure it is BS

Call it what you want but if I hold a five gallon bucket up the exhaust of
my idling truck, it does not suck the water up the exhaust, it blows
bubbles..

>>First, yes, there is a "slight" negative pulse however this pulse is
>>grossly
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> to offset the postive pressure in pipe in relation to atmospheric
> pressure.  Simple physics here but too simple for some.

So you are saying the average pressure in the exhaust at idle is
negative???? Are you implying to my simple brain that my Dodge sucks????

>>Also, to test the veracity of your hypothesis, travel to any lake nearby
>>your home and look for an old fashioned inboard runabout.  Somehow, they
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> solution or cause to begin with and if you do not understand the
> subject completely, do not comment on it.

You forgot the fourth kind. The ones that talk out their a.s. I know, your
modesty prevented you from mentioning it. Did you notice something in this
little debate......nobody here is disagreeing that an exhaust will have
positive and negative pulses but the negative pulses will not suck water in
the engine. In more simple terms, the positives outweigh the
negatives..understand??
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
Budd Cochran - 16 Sep 2006 14:33 GMT
>>Sadly, your hypothesis is badly flawed in spite of your assumed knowledge
>>of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The said part is you are wrong but since you do not understand the
> dynamics involved, your figure it is BS

No, that would be you.

>>First, yes, there is a "slight" negative pulse however this pulse is
>>grossly
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> to offset the postive pressure in pipe in relation to atmospheric
> pressure.  Simple physics here but too simple for some.

And far too complicated for you. If you have 100 CFM (demonstrative figure)
going into an engine, expanded by heating to 300 CFM  (demonstrative
figure), how many CFM will be exiting the exhaust valve? the exhaust tip?

>>Also, to test the veracity of your hypothesis, travel to any lake nearby
>>your home and look for an old fashioned inboard runabout.  Somehow, they
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> A inboard runabout has a exhaust system baffled and designed to be
> under water duh.... a car does not.

ROTFLMBO!!!!!!! the exhausts on OLDER inboards from the 20's to the 70's had
one thing in common, water in the pipe. No baffles, just water-cooled
exhaust.

>>Your really should take the time to review your theories before exposing
>>them to public ridicule.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

So . . .you claim to have worked on the GPS system. Big Deal! I worked
alongside a future Vice President for a few hours. big deal. We were both in
the National Guard at the time.  big deal.

At the same time I was working with Arvin engineers in the Franklin Indiana
plant and asking questions about how exhaust systems work.

Signature

Budd Cochran

John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:23, 6:23

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
(John Adams)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Roy - 16 Sep 2006 16:01 GMT
> People such as yourself tends to hurt those that are asking for a
> solution or cause to begin with and if you do not understand the
> subject completely, do not comment on it.

Hole!!! I don't believe you posted this!!  (also don't believe I missed it)
Now how about following the only worthwhile thing you've posted!
Oh, you can answer those questions regarding the V10 anytime, a bunch of us
are waiting.

While I have your attention, ya never got back to me regards your sig. I
guess you must like it.

> -----------------
> TheAssHoleMan.com
Carolina Watercraft Works - 16 Sep 2006 19:28 GMT
I guess you may be correct...maybe not.  Fact of the matter is I have

better things to do than to refute the info you state.  That does not mean

I will accept it as fact...I just have better things to do.

That being said...and lets say you are correct.  I find it utterly
impossible

to accept that any sort of negative pulse could, in any way shape or form,

suck water up an incline of maybe 10-15 or so degrees, through the muffler

(which being hot as hell would turn any water into vapor and expel said
vapor)

through the cat, and then directly upwards into the head pipe (hot as balls)

into the manifold (hotter than balls) and after this water somehow made it's

way past these areas...made it into the oil passages galleys etc to do
damage

to the lifters?  Come on now!!

I know I requested things to stay on topic but I understand the rebuttal

which was submitted so I just had to interject things in laymen's terms.

Signature

------------------------------------------
Laszlo Almasi
----Cool Toys (formerly Carolina Watercraft Works)
----Mack Daddy Trailers
----Ice Angels

>>Sadly, your hypothesis is badly flawed in spite of your assumed knowledge
>>of
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
BigIronRam - 16 Sep 2006 19:54 GMT
The guy has a point, there are negative pressure impulses, that's as far as
he gets.  Even with the aspirator air injection system Chrysler used when a
full smog pump wasn't called for, it required a one way valve to get AIR
into the exhaust.  There is NO way, no how, water got in the engine from the
tailpipe while running.

IF water got into the cylinder it wouldn't likely (extremely unlikely)
cause lifter failure, it would cause hydraulic lock, usually resulting in a
bent rod.

>I guess you may be correct...maybe not.  Fact of the matter is I have
>
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
>> -----------------
>> TheSnoMan.com
aarcuda69062 - 16 Sep 2006 20:47 GMT
>  The guy has a point,

On he top of his head.

> there are negative pressure impulses, that's as far as
> he gets.  

The "negative pressure pulses" are relative.  There is a delta
pressure inside the exhaust system, but it is above atmospheric.
There are diagnostic tools available that are inserted into the
exhaust pipe that measure these pulses, the tool software then
correlates these pulses to cylinder identification and displays
them on a lab scope, the lab scope signal is AC coupled to
further define the pulse waves but the overall exhaust pressure
is above atmospheric.

> Even with the aspirator air injection system Chrysler used when a
> full smog pump wasn't called for, it required a one way valve to get AIR
> into the exhaust.  There is NO way, no how, water got in the engine from the
> tailpipe while running.

Precisely!  Aspirator systems didn't admit air continuously, they
admitted it in little gulps and I doubt that they'd be effective
at all mounted at the tail end of the exhaust system.

>  IF water got into the cylinder it wouldn't likely (extremely unlikely)
> cause lifter failure, it would cause hydraulic lock, usually resulting in a
> bent rod.

Not to mention the damage to the exhaust valves from thermal
shock, the damage to the O2 sensors from thermal shock, the
damage to the exhaust manifolds from thermal shock.

Snojob must have been suffering from an acute case of
techno-mumbo-jumbo and an extreme need to be thought of as more
learned than the other 6 billion humans on the planet.

Maybe if we're nice to him, he'll invite us to his next 'kookout'.
Carolina Watercraft Works - 16 Sep 2006 23:03 GMT
I think he meant I had a point...not snohole.

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------------------------------------------
Laszlo Almasi
----Cool Toys (formerly Carolina Watercraft Works)
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>>  The guy has a point,
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Maybe if we're nice to him, he'll invite us to his next 'kookout'.
aarcuda69062 - 17 Sep 2006 00:30 GMT
> I think he meant I had a point...not snohole.

He (BIR) was replying to your reply to Snojob.
So, the "he" in this case is Snojob.  :-)
Mike Simmons - 16 Sep 2006 11:16 GMT
>>>>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>>>>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>> system due to low flow and a combination of sonic wave travel and the
>>> rapid cooling of the exhaust gas.

Snoman:

Sadly, your hypothesis is badly flawed in spite of your assumed knowledge of
the physics of expanding and cooling gases which actually have little or
nothing to do with your "theory"

First, yes, there is a "slight" negative pulse however this pulse is grossly
outweighed by the positive flow of hot exhaust gases.  If your hypothesis
were true and an exhaust system on an otherwise healthy engine could indeed
ingest water, how could the exhaust gases ever escape to overcome the
negative pressure?  Yet, miraculously, somehow they do.

Also, to test the veracity of your hypothesis, travel to any lake nearby
your home and look for an old fashioned inboard runabout.  Somehow, they
manage to avoid water ingestion without the need of restrictors or any other
such nonsense.

Your really should take the time to review your theories before exposing
them to public ridicule.

BTW, the oil starvation theory in a later post sounds the most plausible to
me, but we don't have enough info to make an intelligent diagnosis.

Mike
beekeep - 16 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT
>I think I'd rather try to reason with my three year old grandcritter..
>
>Denny

Or Budd.

beekeep
theguy@whatever.net - 16 Sep 2006 01:54 GMT
>>I think I'd rather try to reason with my three year old grandcritter..
>>
>>Denny
>>
>Or Budd.

ahhhhh, that may be taking it a bit far greg.

>beekeep
craig@metronet.com - 16 Sep 2006 03:04 GMT
> >>I think I'd rather try to reason with my three year old grandcritter..
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> ahhhhh, that may be taking it a bit far greg.

Nah.  beekeep should quit his day job.  I've gotten more laughs the
past week from this ng than any comedian that comes to town ...

Craig C.
Budd Cochran - 16 Sep 2006 14:02 GMT
Having spent 10 years working with exhaust systems engineers with Arvin
Industries, I can say, based on what I learned from them, you're full of it.

The ONLY exhaust systems with definite negative pressure at the tips belong
to engines with HIGH OVERLAP CAMS or BURNT VALVES. Not to mention the vacuum
effect and it's duration are still insufficient to suck up more than a
couple ounces of water and no farther than the first upward turn of the
pipes.

Signature

Budd Cochran

John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:23, 6:23

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
(John Adams)

>>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

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Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Mike Simmons - 17 Sep 2006 03:21 GMT
> Having spent 10 years working with exhaust systems engineers with Arvin
> Industries, I can say, based on what I learned from them, you're full of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> than a couple ounces of water and no farther than the first upward turn of
> the pipes.

Yer wastin' yer time Budd... he KNOWS all about physics

;^)

Mike

> John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:23, 6:23
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>> -----------------
>> TheSnoMan.com
Budd Cochran - 17 Sep 2006 13:41 GMT
To paraphrase ol' William

"Oh what fools these mortals be where, when first themselves they seek to
deceive"

Signature

Budd Cochran

John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:23, 6:23

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
(John Adams)

>> Having spent 10 years working with exhaust systems engineers with Arvin
>> Industries, I can say, based on what I learned from them, you're full of
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>>> -----------------
>>> TheSnoMan.com

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

beekeep - 17 Sep 2006 14:33 GMT
>To paraphrase ol' William
>
>"Oh what fools these mortals be where, when first themselves they seek to
>deceive"

What in the hell is the difference of paraphrasing Shakespear this poorly and
misquoting the bible?

beekeep
theguy@whatever.net - 17 Sep 2006 16:35 GMT
>>To paraphrase ol' William
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>beekeep

yeah, this isn't even a paraphrase.  lol.  that was just sad.
Scott - 16 Sep 2006 20:00 GMT
> >I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
> >goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

I don't see how water can make its way through the muffler and cat all
the way into the engine.  Even if it made it a little ways up looks
like the heat from the pipe would turn the water into steam.

Scott
Demon - 15 Sep 2006 16:55 GMT
I don't know about hemi's but my cummins exhaust has never given me a
problem when sunk in water or mud.

>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
> goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
> comes on. Last week just after leaving the engine runnig while i loaded
> the boat - the valves started knocking really loud and now I have a
> hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
> ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.
Carolina Watercraft Works - 15 Sep 2006 17:12 GMT
Well, I seriously doubt the repair was caused by water intrusion.
I myself have had my vehicle in water at ramps and once even
through 3 to 3 1/2 feet of water for 1/4 and no damage at all.
Granted I was nervous as hell but my Ram made it all the way.
This is a 2001 2500 4x4, no lift kit...standard height.

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>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
> goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
> comes on. Last week just after leaving the engine runnig while i loaded
> the boat - the valves started knocking really loud and now I have a
> hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
> ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.
Carolina Watercraft Works - 15 Sep 2006 17:39 GMT
That was 1/4 mile distance.

Signature

------------------------------------------
Laszlo Almasi
----Cool Toys (formerly Carolina Watercraft Works)
----Mack Daddy Trailers
----Ice Angels

> Well, I seriously doubt the repair was caused by water intrusion.
> I myself have had my vehicle in water at ramps and once even
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
>> ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.
DonStaples - 16 Sep 2006 00:08 GMT
I'm probably way off base here, but it sounds like low oil to me.That would
account for the rough running, the hydraulic lifters going bad quickly, and
even the check engine light (which does come on when oil/oil pressure gets
really low).Just my 1.5 cents (adjusted for inflation).
>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
> goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
> comes on. Last week just after leaving the engine runnig while i loaded
> the boat - the valves started knocking really loud and now I have a
> hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
> ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.
Carolina Watercraft Works - 16 Sep 2006 01:16 GMT
That's exactly what my line of thought was as well.  Low oil, running,
backed down on an incline with oil away from the pickup in the pan
more than likely...left the vehicle so didn't hear it clammering for oil
and 'walah' (sp)...toasted lifters and possibly more that can only be
seen by a complete teardown.
Signature

------------------------------------------
Laszlo Almasi
----Cool Toys (formerly Carolina Watercraft Works)
----Mack Daddy Trailers
----Ice Angels

> I'm probably way off base here, but it sounds like low oil to me.That
> would account for the rough running, the hydraulic lifters going bad
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
>> ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.
beekeep - 17 Sep 2006 14:50 GMT
>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
>goes under water both vehicles start to blow steam and the engine light
>comes on. Last week just after leaving the engine runnig while i loaded
>the boat - the valves started knocking really loud and now I have a
>hefty repair bill to reinstall new valve lifters. Does anyone have any
>ideas why???? None of my other trucks have ever had this problem.

Snow man has the right answer he just left out some of the points that should be
intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers.  Ya see, when you back your
truck into the water some water does get into the exhaust system.  Some of this
water turns to steam and rises thus a small amount gets into the engine.  This
causes chemical reactions to occur within the engine and fullerines sp?
(commonly know as Buckey Balls) are formed.  When these balls form within your
Ram it's testosterone levels increase causing it to buck uncontrolably with a
pumping action.  This in turn causes the 710 pump to go into cardiac arrest
depriving the lifters of 710!  You could have prevented this by giving your Ram
a transfution of 710.  This is a simple proceedure.  All auto stores have quarts
of 710 but they can be hard to spot.  The trick is to stand on your head while
looking!  After purchasing a few quarts of 710 remove the  cap marked 710 and
poor some in until the dipstick reads full.

beekeep

This post is brought to you be the Society Againt Apathy, which no longer
exists due to a lack of interest.
Chris Thompson - 18 Sep 2006 01:20 GMT
LOL

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----------------------------
-Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Real Trucks don't NEED spark plugs.

>
>>I have a 2004 Durango hemi and a 2004 Ram 1500 hemi. When the tailpipe
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> This post is brought to you be the Society Againt Apathy, which no longer
> exists due to a lack of interest.
 
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