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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / September 2006

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UPDATE 2 with Pictures of the DIFF -- Replacing rear bearings on a Dodge pickup?

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Ignoramus937 - 23 Sep 2006 17:11 GMT
I decided to take pictures as I go along. See

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Automotive/Drivetrain-Noise-In-Dodge-RAM-1500-Pickup/

Some findings as I opened up the differential.

1. It is full of gear oil. (means my oil change 2 years ago was successful)

2. On the bottom there is some amount of of, like, 100 grit metal
dust, settled down.

3. There was one foreign object on the bottom, see

  http://tinyurl.com/zr8zg

4. The gears and such, do not seem to have any unusual damage.

i
Jeff Burke - 23 Sep 2006 17:20 GMT
>3. There was one foreign object on the bottom, see
>
>   http://tinyurl.com/zr8zg

A friend of mine found that exact same piece while doing a lube change on his
Durango and he had to take it in for a rebuild under extended warranty.  I'll
find out exactly what they had to replace and get back to you.
BDK - 23 Sep 2006 17:38 GMT
> >3. There was one foreign object on the bottom, see
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Durango and he had to take it in for a rebuild under extended warranty.  I'll
> find out exactly what they had to replace and get back to you.

My Ram had a very similar looking piece fall out when the cover was
removed during what was supposed to be a normal 24K fluid change. Pretty
much everything inside the diff was trashed, gears, bearings, etc. They
didn't seem to be surprised about it. They had to have a carrier brought
down from Detroit, and they gave me a loaner until it was done.

BDK
Ignoramus937 - 23 Sep 2006 17:58 GMT
>> >3. There was one foreign object on the bottom, see
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> didn't seem to be surprised about it. They had to have a carrier brought
> down from Detroit, and they gave me a loaner until it was done.

How did they know that the diff was trashed? How can I find out if
mine is trashed? Did you see the pictures, does it suggest that it is
in a good shape, bad shape, or perhaps it cannot be easily determined?

Besides that little piece, I did not find any other large objects in
the diff, but plenty of metal dust.

i
BDK - 23 Sep 2006 18:33 GMT
> >> >3. There was one foreign object on the bottom, see
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> i

They called me to the service desk and took me back and showed me the
parts. There was signs of damage on every part I looked at. It was
pretty easy to spot the damage on the ring and pinion, and there was
metal "dust" all over the place. They were rinsing out the rear housing
while I looked at the parts, and there was a lot of crud coming out the
bottom where the cover went on. About the only thing left that was
reused was the axles and a few other pieces. It never really showed any
signs, or made any odd noises until a few days before I took it in. It
made a "clunk" when I made a right turn, and backed out of the gas at
the same time. After it was all fixed, it was much quieter than it ever
was before.

BDK
Tony - 23 Sep 2006 17:33 GMT
That looks like a Chrysler 9.25" rear end. You have to find where that piece
of metal came from.

This rear uses side adjusters instead of shims, which makes it easy. To
remove the carrier you remove the two 3/8" locks, which will allow you to
loosen the side adjusters (round disk with holes), then unbolt the main
bearing caps and the carrier and ring gear will come out. Also, you will
first need to withdraw the axle shafts. Push in on the axles, then remove
the C-clips inside the spider gears, then pull the axles out.

Tony
> I decided to take pictures as I go along. See

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Automotive/Drivetrain-Noise-In-Dodge-RAM-1500-Pickup/

> Some findings as I opened up the differential.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> i
Ignoramus937 - 23 Sep 2006 17:59 GMT
> That looks like a Chrysler 9.25" rear end. You have to find where that piece
> of metal came from.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> first need to withdraw the axle shafts. Push in on the axles, then remove
> the C-clips inside the spider gears, then pull the axles out.

Sounds about right, I was reading the manual last night. I will do
exactly as the manual says (which seems to follow what you suggested).

i

> Tony
>> I decided to take pictures as I go along. See
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>
>> i
Tony - 23 Sep 2006 17:48 GMT
when i look at the piece, it looks like one of the side adjuster locks broke
off.,, If so that would throw the ring gear adjustment out of whack.

Tony

> I decided to take pictures as I go along. See

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Automotive/Drivetrain-Noise-In-Dodge-RAM-1500-Pickup/

> Some findings as I opened up the differential.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> i
Ignoramus937 - 23 Sep 2006 17:59 GMT
> when i look at the piece, it looks like one of the side adjuster locks broke
> off.,, If so that would throw the ring gear adjustment out of whack.

And, so, do I need a replacement for it or what?

i

> Tony
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>>
>> i
Snag - 23 Sep 2006 19:04 GMT
>> when i look at the piece, it looks like one of the side adjuster locks
>> broke
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> i
I'm not Tony , but I'd say yes , you need to replace it . There are two
threaded and slotted pieces , one on either side, under bolted caps  . They
hold the bearings the differential unit rides in , and they are used to
adjust the clearance between the ring and pinion gears . That piece (if it's
the lock , but they both appear to be in place) is what keeps the adjuster
rings from rotating .
 You also need to completely disassemble that diff and inspect every
piece - including removing the pinion shaft . That 100 grit metallic dust
was ground off of something in there , it ain't normal . It looks from your
pics that the ring gear is OK , so we can probably assume the pinion is too
. You might be a very lucky guy , having caught this before it totally
trashed your axle .
<< I ain't nuthin' but a shade tree mechanic , but *nobody* works on my cars
unless it's an emergency >>

Signature

Snag aka OSG #1
'76 FLH "Bag Lady"
BS132 SENS NEWT
"A hand shift is a manly shift ."
<shamelessly stolen >
none to one to reply

Tony - 24 Sep 2006 03:57 GMT
yeah, you would need a replacement from the dealer (Mopar), or fabricate one
sheet metal.

Tony

> > when i look at the piece, it looks like one of the side adjuster locks broke
> > off.,, If so that would throw the ring gear adjustment out of whack.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> >> I decided to take pictures as I go along. See

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Automotive/Drivetrain-Noise-In-Dodge-RAM-1500-Pickup/

> >> Some findings as I opened up the differential.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >>
> >> i
Ignoramus937 - 24 Sep 2006 03:56 GMT
> yeah, you would need a replacement from the dealer (Mopar), or fabricate one
> sheet metal.

Tony, please see my post UPDATE 3, I detail what exactly went wrong
and why (looks to me like it was installed backwards). See if you have
any opinion on that!

i

> Tony
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>> >>
>> >> i
Jon Elson - 23 Sep 2006 20:24 GMT
> I decided to take pictures as I go along. See
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> i

YIKES!  You say "unusual" damage, the drive faces of these gears should
be as smooth as mirrors.  Any small nicks or dings will cause
considerable metal-metal contact and overheating, especially at highway
speed.  The hypoid gears make a VERY sliding sort of "contact", and if
there are mars on the surface, that will cause rubbing of the metal.
They will eventually smooth off again, I suppose.  if you do try to
continue using this differential, I would see about getting magnetic
drain plugs for it, or making them if you have to (not very hard).
Then, I would go out for a short drive, drain the diff and refill.
If you want, you could take the oil and run it through a fine filter
and reuse it.  A large filter paper in a funnel left to drain overnight
should get the metal out.  The full diff contents might take several
separate funnels to run through in one day, though, as that stuff is
awfully thick even without foreign matter.

Otherwise, I'd keep draining and refilling it at gradually longer
intervals until you don't see any metal on the magnets anymore.
Of course, you HAVE to find out what bolt that retainer flap was
SUPPOSED to hold in place, and re-do that section.

Oh, hell, I didn't even MENTION bearings.  This kind of crud must be
even harder on the bearings than the gear teeth!  I think the main
tapered roller bearings may SOUND fine right now, but they are going to
fail for sure after this abuse.

Jon
BDK - 24 Sep 2006 02:50 GMT
> > I decided to take pictures as I go along. See
> >
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Jon

I would agree with all the above and you really need to take everything
apart and clean it up and look at everything. This is probably covered
under some sort of warranty, and I wouldn't want to go through the mess
and hassle of putting a rear together again. Not to mention the smell of
the lube. Last time, I got some of it in my hair, and even after washing
it several times, I could still smell it.

BDK
beekeep - 23 Sep 2006 20:29 GMT
>I decided to take pictures as I go along. See
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>i

Really hard to say just looking at the pictures but it looks like the drivers
side adjuster keeper is broken off.  The gears don't look bad but the backlash
should be checked and some prussen sp? blue used to verify the contact area.
You're going to need a special tool for setting the torque on the adjusters.
You have to do it with the axles removed.  The tool is simple enough to make.  A
nut welded on one end of 2' of 1/2" all thread and a hexhead pipe bushing welded
on the other end.  The right size hexhead has to be selected to fit into the
adjuster.  You might as well replace the wheel bearings and seals while you have
it apart.  Don't forget to check the backlash every time you change the
adjusters and after you torque every thing down.  Make up a jig to hold the dial
indicator that bolts to the case using one of the cover bolt holes.

beekeep
Tony - 24 Sep 2006 04:06 GMT
After you clean everything out and check for damage, you re-install the ring
gear/carrier. You'll need a dial indicator with a magnetic base or some
fixture to hold the indicator against one of the teeth on the ring gear, and
rock the gear. Tighten the side adjusters until you get around .007"
backlash. I use a phillips screwdriver, placed in the adjustment hole of the
casting and pry against one of the holes in the side adjuster, tightening
until snug.

Then replace your adjuster locks.

Tony

> >I decided to take pictures as I go along. See
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> beekeep
Ignoramus937 - 24 Sep 2006 04:08 GMT
> After you clean everything out and check for damage, you re-install the ring
> gear/carrier. You'll need a dial indicator with a magnetic base or some
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Then replace your adjuster locks.

Sounds simple enough, I will check if I have a dial indicator. See my
post that I made 15 minutes ago, UPDATE 3, I detail why it broke etc,
some nice pictures there, do not miss it.

i
aarcuda69062 - 24 Sep 2006 05:10 GMT
> After you clean everything out and check for damage, you re-install the ring
> gear/carrier. You'll need a dial indicator with a magnetic base or some
> fixture to hold the indicator against one of the teeth on the ring gear, and
> rock the gear. Tighten the side adjusters until you get around .007"
> backlash.

.007 is fine if you're setting up a new gear set.
If he's reusing the old gear set, he needs to measure backlash
-before- anything is disturbed or disassembled.
When he reassembles and sets backlash and bearing preload, he
needs to set the backlash to what he measured originally.
Tony - 24 Sep 2006 20:35 GMT
1. There is no bearing pre-load on the carrier bearings, only the pinion
bearing, and we aren't discussing the pinion here.

2. If Iggy takes the ring bear backlash now it may be an invalid reading
since the side adjusters have moved, throwing the ring gear out of
adjustment.

Techincally, the backlash value is engraved on the ring gear. But for
practical purposes anything from .006 to .008 should be fine.

Tony

> > After you clean everything out and check for damage, you re-install the ring
> > gear/carrier. You'll need a dial indicator with a magnetic base or some
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> When he reassembles and sets backlash and bearing preload, he
> needs to set the backlash to what he measured originally.
Tom Lawrence - 25 Sep 2006 00:05 GMT
> 1. There is no bearing pre-load on the carrier bearings, only the pinion
> bearing, and we aren't discussing the pinion here.

There absolutely is - what do you think the function of the adjusters is?
They get tightened to somewhere around 80ft.lbs. (don't remember exactly).
That's putting pre-load on the carrier bearings.

All tapered roller bearings require pre-load.

(cross-post to RCM removed - this is a truck issue, not a metalworking
issue.  No need to pollute other groups - something I wish others would
recognize)
beekeep - 25 Sep 2006 00:30 GMT
>> 1. There is no bearing pre-load on the carrier bearings, only the pinion
>> bearing, and we aren't discussing the pinion here.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>issue.  No need to pollute other groups - something I wish others would
>recognize)

Tom, how do you get 80# of torque with a phillips screwdriver?

beekeep
Denny - 25 Sep 2006 00:44 GMT
>>> 1. There is no bearing pre-load on the carrier bearings, only the pinion
>>> bearing, and we aren't discussing the pinion here.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
> Tom, how do you get 80# of torque with a phillips screwdriver?

Put a pipewrench on the shank????  <BG>  There is a 'special' tool to turn
the adjusters. Think of a piece of pipe with the appropriate (sp) sized nut
welded on one end to fit the adjuster and a nut on the other end to fit
whatever socket you desire. You insert the tool in place of the axle shaft
to turn the adjuster. Or just pry the hell out of the adjuster with a
screwdriver..

Denny
azwiley1 - 25 Sep 2006 00:47 GMT
I would like to see how a wabbit does this?

>>>> 1. There is no bearing pre-load on the carrier bearings, only the
>>>> pinion
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Denny
Denny - 25 Sep 2006 00:50 GMT
>I would like to see how a wabbit does this?

With a pair of gloves on.... Nothing worse than gear lube on paw fur....

Denny
Tom Lawrence - 25 Sep 2006 01:01 GMT
> With a pair of gloves on.... Nothing worse than gear lube on paw fur....

Oh, but there is....  gear lube in your face/mouth/nostrils.  Back when I
was workspace-challenged, and did my vehicle work on a creeper in my
driveway, I was attempting to remove a rear diff cover.  I had most of the
bolts removed, and a gasket scraper tapped underneath the cover.  As I
pulled on the gasket scraper (much the same way you would pull on a
screwdriver to tighten an axle adjuster nut), I pulled myself on the creeper
towards the axle, just as the silicone decided to "let go", and popped the
cover up.

Not fun....  not fun at all.  I smelled gear oil for the next several days.
azwiley1 - 25 Sep 2006 01:13 GMT
>> With a pair of gloves on.... Nothing worse than gear lube on paw fur....
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Not fun....  not fun at all.  I smelled gear oil for the next several
> days.

But with you, it cleans right off, maybe with a little elbow grease.  Could
you immagine the stained pink fur!
Denny - 25 Sep 2006 01:47 GMT
>>> With a pair of gloves on.... Nothing worse than gear lube on paw fur....
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> But with you, it cleans right off, maybe with a little elbow grease.
> Could you immagine the stained pink fur!

Yuck....

Denny
Chris Thompson - 25 Sep 2006 01:58 GMT
>> With a pair of gloves on.... Nothing worse than gear lube on paw fur....
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Not fun....  not fun at all.  I smelled gear oil for the next several
> days.

ah what a wonderful smell and experience.

you didn't enjoy it Tom?

<BFG>

Signature

----------------------------
-Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Real Trucks don't NEED spark plugs.

Tom Lawrence - 25 Sep 2006 00:57 GMT
> Tom, how do you get 80# of torque with a phillips screwdriver?

Well-developed forearms...

And I was incorrect - the actual torque spec. is 75 ft.lbs. - which we all
know IS able to by applied by yanking with a screwdriver.

My bad...
TBone - 27 Sep 2006 01:36 GMT
> > 1. There is no bearing pre-load on the carrier bearings, only the pinion
> > bearing, and we aren't discussing the pinion here.
>
> There absolutely is - what do you think the function of the adjusters is?

Perhaps to position the ring gear and carrier in relation to the pinion
gear.  Yes, they also allow setting bearing preload but that is a given.

Signature

If at first you don't succeed,  you're not cut out for skydiving

beekeep - 24 Sep 2006 11:17 GMT
>After you clean everything out and check for damage, you re-install the ring
>gear/carrier. You'll need a dial indicator with a magnetic base or some
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Tony

This is why the manual tells you to take it somewhere to get it done.  Phillip
screwdrivers don't make good torque wrenches.

beekeep
Tony - 24 Sep 2006 20:40 GMT
Bee,

Having rebuilt a few 9.25 Mopar rears, including machining custom axle
shafts, installing limited slips, and such, the screwdriver method works
fine. As a matter of fact thats why the factory places the adjustment holes
in the side adjusters.  It's not practical to buy every tool the service
manual recommends. The only tools you really need are a dial indicator and a
good mechanical sense.

Tony

> This is why the manual tells you to take it somewhere to get it done.  Phillip
> screwdrivers don't make good torque wrenches.
>
> beekeep
D Murphy - 25 Sep 2006 01:49 GMT
> Having rebuilt a few 9.25 Mopar rears, including machining custom axle
> shafts, installing limited slips, and such, the screwdriver method
> works fine. As a matter of fact thats why the factory places the
> adjustment holes in the side adjusters.  It's not practical to buy
> every tool the service manual recommends. The only tools you really
> need are a dial indicator and a good mechanical sense

Screwdriver? Feh.

Don't you have a set of pin punches?

There'll be one in there that fits just right.

Signature

Dan

Scopulus est usquequaque nefas

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 25 Sep 2006 02:17 GMT
> Don't you have a set of pin punches?
>
> There'll be one in there that fits just right.

Geez, he didn't tell me he had pictures.  Seems he lost the lock on the left
adjuster.  It would seem that this adjuster worked its way loose and the
carrier is floating to the left under load.  It doesn't look like he has too
much wear on the ring gear.  At this point I would tighten *ONLY* the left
adjuster to get proper load on the bearings.  He shouldn't need to set the
rear up if he didn't screw with the right adjuster.  The noise will
disappear once the bearings are properly loaded.  If he still has noise
after this it would be best to go down to the bone yard and get a low
mileage rear for about $75.

Rita
Jeff Burke - 24 Sep 2006 03:10 GMT
>3. There was one foreign object on the bottom, see
>
>   http://tinyurl.com/zr8zg

That same part was in a friend's diff when he did a lube change, I asked him
what the warranty company had to fix on his and he replied:

>It was the lsd clutch.When I called Dodge to get the parts there was a TSB
>on the parts catalog.

There's a lead for you, a TSB.
Ignoramus937 - 24 Sep 2006 03:39 GMT
>>3. There was one foreign object on the bottom, see
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> There's a lead for you, a TSB.

My truck is a 1999 truck, so, it is not covered by any warranty, right?

I am out of luck here?

See my UPDATE #3 where I give great details on this issue. I will post
it in a minute.

i
Jeff Burke - 24 Sep 2006 04:21 GMT
>My truck is a 1999 truck, so, it is not covered by any warranty, right?

My friend's truck was covered becauae it had an extended warranty.

>I am out of luck here?

Probably.
 
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