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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / November 2006

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A bit of Regular mixed with Diesel...  Problems?

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David ~ - 28 Nov 2006 02:07 GMT
Hey gang,

What's to be expected if a few gallons of regular gas was mixed in with
aproximately 15 gallons of diesel?  Any serious problems?

Thanks,
David
Big Goof - 28 Nov 2006 02:30 GMT
Depends on the vehicle to tell you the truth. Some older Diesel
vehicles fair well with gas in the tank, most newer ones do not due to
the computer controls etc. When in doubt just drain the tank and refill
with the correct fuel.
Stormin Mormon - 28 Nov 2006 03:09 GMT
Some folks run 10% gasoline in the winter, to make it easier to start.
I'm not sure beyond that.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

Hey gang,

What's to be expected if a few gallons of regular gas was mixed in
with
aproximately 15 gallons of diesel?  Any serious problems?

Thanks,
David
David ~ - 28 Nov 2006 03:16 GMT
Well it'll be winter here in KC in a few more days.  So far I haven't
"sensed" any problems and have ran about 50 miles so far.  I assume gas and
diesel will mix, that it's not like oil & water, so if I haven't noticed any
problems yet, I should be ok.  BTW...  it's an '05.

Thanks,
David

> Hey gang,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks,
> David
Nosey - 28 Nov 2006 14:00 GMT
> Well it'll be winter here in KC in a few more days.  So far I haven't
> "sensed" any problems and have ran about 50 miles so far.  I assume
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks,
> David

Are you planning on intentionally mixing gasoline with diesel fuel for a
winter blend? If so, don't do it. Use kerosene or #1 diesel.

From Cummins Service Bulletin # 3379001-10
Fuels For Cummins Engines:

Under no circumstances must gasoline or alcohol be used to dilute diesel
fuel. This practice creates an extreme fire hazard and under certain
circumstances an explosive hazard. Gasoline dilution is not an effective way
to lower cloud point (20 volume-percent gasoline only lowers cloud point 4°C
[7°F] and it lowers the fuel viscosity, cetane number, and flash-point).
Alcohol dilution will increase the cloud point.

In cold-weather operation, the most common method of preventing fuel waxing
problems is to dilute heavier, higher wax content fuels such as U.S. Number
2-D diesel fuel with lighter, lower wax content fuels such as Number 1-D
diesel or jet fuel. This reduces the concentration of wax, and thereby
reduces both the cloud point and pour point. Blended fuels of this nature
are more expensive to use both because they cost more and because they have
a lower thermal energy content. A typical blended fuel contains 30 to 60
volume-percent light distillate fuel, usually yielding a 3 to 7°C [5 to
12°F] drop in cloud point, and a 5 to 11°C [9 to 20°F] drop in pour point.
Lower wax content fuels must be added BEFORE wax forms to be effective.

Ken
Stormin Mormon - 28 Nov 2006 15:12 GMT
There is no doubt in my mind that they WILL mix. After all, they are
both petroleum products.

The problem is that gasoline is far more volatile (I can't remember
how to spell that word, it's pronounced vol-LIT-tuhl) than diesel. As
such, it will vaporize a lot easier, and will ignite a lot easier. May
pre-detonate and damage your cylinders.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

Well it'll be winter here in KC in a few more days.  So far I haven't
"sensed" any problems and have ran about 50 miles so far.  I assume
gas and
diesel will mix, that it's not like oil & water, so if I haven't
noticed any
problems yet, I should be ok.  BTW...  it's an '05.

Thanks,
David

"David ~" <David~@hasnoaddress.com> wrote in message
news:SRMah.1056$U81.955@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Hey gang,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks,
> David
David ~ - 29 Nov 2006 01:10 GMT
No, I have no intention of mixing fuels...  This was a fluke that *should
not* be repeated!

Thanks,
David
Stormin Mormon - 29 Nov 2006 01:57 GMT
There must be a reason why folks panic at the thought of gas in a
diesel vehicle. I remember it's got to do with predetonation, cylinder
damage, and so on. If it was "less combustible" no one would worry
much about it.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

No, I have no intention of mixing fuels...  This was a fluke that
*should
not* be repeated!

Thanks,
David
Mike B - 29 Nov 2006 15:22 GMT
This topic was discussed at a class conducted by John Holms at Carson Dodge
in Carson City, NV.  Diesel 101, "The care and feeding of a Dodge Ram
Diesel".   www.diesel101.com   A major concern, as I understand it, is the
injector pump and lift pump are lubricated by the fuel passing through them.
Since gasoline has no lubricating properties, there is a real possibility
both of these items could be damaged by running gasoline through them.
John's recommendation for correcting this issue was to not start the diesel,
or immediately shut it down, and drain the contaminated fuel from the tank.
If gas was run through the engine the fuel system should be drained and the
filter replaced.  I think you should be at your dealer by now.

Mike B

> Well it'll be winter here in KC in a few more days.  So far I haven't
> "sensed" any problems and have ran about 50 miles so far.  I assume gas
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> Thanks,
>> David
Chris Thompson - 28 Nov 2006 03:32 GMT
> Hey gang,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks,
> David

I'm gonna be in SO much trouble *grin*

my wife a while back filled our liberty with 87 octane. left it running
while she filled it, and yes the fuel light was on so it was really low.
and drove it about 1/2 a mile before she realized what she had done. she
immediately pulled off and shut it down. then called me, I had to clear the
equipment trailer and go get it oh what a joy that was. but anyways, after
removing the tank and draining the fuel/gas mix (much more gas than diesel)
out of the tank and some fresh diesel the liberty I'm proud to say still
runs like a champ and hasn't missed a lick. no notable damage.

just be glad yours was only a few gallons.

and id imagine if the liberty lived though that you have nothing major to
worry about.
Signature

----------------------------
-Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Real Trucks don't NEED spark plugs.

Trent - 28 Nov 2006 06:19 GMT
> Hey gang,
>
> What's to be expected if a few gallons of regular gas was mixed in with
> aproximately 15 gallons of diesel?  Any serious problems?

Diesel has Cetane while gasoline has Octane. Those products are inversive to
each other.

> Thanks,
> David
Stormin Mormon - 28 Nov 2006 15:12 GMT
I'll admit, I have no clue what that means. Perhaps some more detail?

I've got three years of college, and an AAS degree. Chemistry was one
of my favorite classes, so I'm interested in what you meant.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

Diesel has Cetane while gasoline has Octane. Those products are
inversive to
each other.
Nosey - 28 Nov 2006 16:06 GMT
> I'll admit, I have no clue what that means. Perhaps some more detail?
>
> I've got three years of college, and an AAS degree. Chemistry was one
> of my favorite classes, so I'm interested in what you meant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetane_number
Signature

Ken

Stormin Mormon - 28 Nov 2006 19:49 GMT
So, what's the answer?

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I'll admit, I have no clue what that means. Perhaps some more detail?
>
> I've got three years of college, and an AAS degree. Chemistry was one
> of my favorite classes, so I'm interested in what you meant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetane_number
Signature

Ken

Nosey - 28 Nov 2006 20:54 GMT
What's the question?
Signature

Ken

> So, what's the answer?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetane_number
Trent - 28 Nov 2006 22:03 GMT
> I'll admit, I have no clue what that means. Perhaps some more detail?
>
> I've got three years of college, and an AAS degree. Chemistry was one
> of my favorite classes, so I'm interested in what you meant.

It means adding gasoline to diesel vehicle makes the fuel less combustable
under compression.

Diesel is combusted through heat and compression  while gasoline is the
opposite needing to be in a vapor to get better ignition.

> Diesel has Cetane while gasoline has Octane. Those products are
> inversive to
> each other.
Stormin Mormon - 29 Nov 2006 01:57 GMT
In order to get either fuel to combust, it has to first be vaporized.
In a gas engine, it's ignited by spark. And in a diesel, by
compression.

But, both fuels have to be vaporized to work. Gasoline is a lot easier
vaporized, and so I'd expect problems with early ignition, and who
knows what else. Cylinder damage.

I don't believe that "combusted through heat and compression" is the
opposite of neeing to be vaporized. Diesel also needs to be vaporized.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

It means adding gasoline to diesel vehicle makes the fuel less
combustable
under compression.

Diesel is combusted through heat and compression  while gasoline is
the
opposite needing to be in a vapor to get better ignition.

> Diesel has Cetane while gasoline has Octane. Those products are
> inversive to
> each other.
Trent - 29 Nov 2006 05:48 GMT
> In order to get either fuel to combust, it has to first be vaporized.
> In a gas engine, it's ignited by spark. And in a diesel, by
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't believe that "combusted through heat and compression" is the
> opposite of neeing to be vaporized. Diesel also needs to be vaporized.

No. Diesel is sprayed into a fine mist combined with air to be compressed.
Sorta like wheat or rice in a processing plant. The individual pieces of
rice or wheat does not burn very well, but once processing starts and makes
a lot of dust combined with air makes a very volatile product.
Gasoline is heated into a vapor. That is why in the "good ol days" that
gasoline engines did not work well when cold. The gasoline was not being
vaporiaed very well.

> It means adding gasoline to diesel vehicle makes the fuel less
> combustable
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> inversive to
>> each other.
Stormin Mormon - 29 Nov 2006 12:19 GMT
Trent, please explain to  me why "combusted through heat and
compression" is the
opposite of neeing to be vaporized. I've read a web page on diesels,
but I still don't get what you meant.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

> In order to get either fuel to combust, it has to first be vaporized.
> In a gas engine, it's ignited by spark. And in a diesel, by
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't believe that "combusted through heat and compression" is the
> opposite of neeing to be vaporized. Diesel also needs to be vaporized.

No. Diesel is sprayed into a fine mist combined with air to be
compressed.
Sorta like wheat or rice in a processing plant. The individual pieces
of
rice or wheat does not burn very well, but once processing starts and
makes
a lot of dust combined with air makes a very volatile product.
Gasoline is heated into a vapor. That is why in the "good ol days"
that
gasoline engines did not work well when cold. The gasoline was not
being
vaporiaed very well.

> It means adding gasoline to diesel vehicle makes the fuel less
> combustable
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> inversive to
>> each other.
Stormin Mormon - 29 Nov 2006 12:19 GMT
> In order to get either fuel to combust, it has to first be vaporized.
> In a gas engine, it's ignited by spark. And in a diesel, by
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't believe that "combusted through heat and compression" is the
> opposite of neeing to be vaporized. Diesel also needs to be vaporized.

No. Diesel is sprayed into a fine mist combined with air to be
compressed.
CY: http://www.howstuffworks.com/diesel.htm Actually, sprayed into the
air after the air is compressed. And it's sprayed in order to make it
easier for fuel to vaporize. Vapors burn, liquids do not.

Sorta like wheat or rice in a processing plant. The individual pieces
of
rice or wheat does not burn very well, but once processing starts and
makes
a lot of dust combined with air makes a very volatile product.
CY: That sounds like a half-right comparison. The atomizing helps the
combustion because it provides more surface area to create vapor.

Gasoline is heated into a vapor.
CY: Not on any engine I've ever owned. All the gas engines I've owned
have used spraying to make a mist, which makes it easier to vaporize
the gas.

That is why in the "good ol days" that
gasoline engines did not work well when cold. The gasoline was not
being
vaporiaed very well.
CY: While heat helps, the major factor is spraying. You didn't answer
my original question. Please explain why  "combusted through heat and
compression" is the
opposite of neeing to be vaporized.
David ~ - 29 Nov 2006 01:10 GMT
I was *hoping* someone would ask what that meant...  :-)
Stormin Mormon - 29 Nov 2006 01:52 GMT
I'll admit, I have no clue what that means. Perhaps some more detail?

I've got three years of college, and an AAS degree. Chemistry was one
of my favorite classes, so I'm interested in what you meant.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

Diesel has Cetane while gasoline has Octane. Those products are
inversive to
each other.
Mike Simmons - 29 Nov 2006 02:25 GMT
>> Hey gang,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> Thanks,
>> David

Well, not exactly.  Octane and Cetane are not truly substances found in
gasoline or diesel fuel.  Rather, the octane number (ON) or cetane number
(CN) are index numbers used to specify the resistance of the fuel to
knocking in an engine as it pertains to octane, or the igntion quality of
diesel fuel as it pertains to cetane.

The system was derived by ASTM (American Society of Testing and Materials)
to qualitatively specify the properties of these fuels

Hope this helps!

Mike
Trent - 29 Nov 2006 05:49 GMT
>>> Hey gang,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> knocking in an engine as it pertains to octane, or the igntion quality of
> diesel fuel as it pertains to cetane.

Well yes. The more gasoline you add to diesel, the more the cetane level
drops.
And vis a versa

> The system was derived by ASTM (American Society of Testing and Materials)
> to qualitatively specify the properties of these fuels
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Mike
Mike Simmons - 29 Nov 2006 11:19 GMT
>>>> Hey gang,
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> drops.
> And vis a versa

I "guess" we are referring to the same thing although your post didn't make
that clear to me when I first read it..  You said diesel "has" cetane while
gasoline "has" octane and that they are "products" which implied that they
are truly substances within the fuel.  They are not, they are ratings.

Mike

>> The system was derived by ASTM (American Society of Testing and
>> Materials) to qualitatively specify the properties of these fuels
>>
>> Hope this helps!
>>
>> Mike

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