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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / February 2007Am I getting ripped off?
I recently had major repairs to my '99 Dodge Ram 2500. I had the timing chain cover and gears, water pump, and thermostat replaced, as well as a coolant system flush (among multiple other repairs). Today, 250 miles later, I spring an antifreeze leak. The guy says that the bypass hose in the thermostat housing is what sprung a leak and is not related to the repairs already performed. My question is shouldn't they have inspected the hose when the water pump and thermostat were replaced? Any ideas? I can't imagine replacing the water pump without replacing the bypass hose. To replace the water pump on a gasoline powered '99 you have to remove the bypass hose from the water pump. The hose should cost a few dollars tops. >I recently had major repairs to my '99 Dodge Ram 2500. I had the timing > chain cover and gears, water pump, and thermostat replaced, as well as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > repairs already performed. My question is shouldn't they have inspected > the hose when the water pump and thermostat were replaced? Any ideas? As an after thought, you might look into whether or not they even replaced the water pump. The water pump should be easy to find because the hose that comes off of the bottom of the radiator goes into the water pump and the hose from the top of the radiator goes to the thermostat housing just above the cut off hose in question. The cut off hose is a molded piece with a 90 degree turn and has just enough rubber to connect it at either end. The water pump and thermostat housing will be behind a bracket and you may need a flashlight and/or mirror to see in there. Look for new hose clamps and clean, new gasket and/or silicon sealing compound between the water pump and engine block (this may be very difficult to see). I'm not suggesting the mechanic in question defrauded you, but, if you suspect fraud and aren't experienced enough to tell the difference between old and 250 mile old parts, take it to another mechanic for a diagnosis. >I can't imagine replacing the water pump without replacing the bypass hose. >To replace the water pump on a gasoline powered '99 you have to remove the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> repairs already performed. My question is shouldn't they have inspected >> the hose when the water pump and thermostat were replaced? Any ideas? On my personal vehicles I'm working on, no way in the world would I fail to replace that PITA hose. But from my "production" mechanic days yes I DO see the reason(s) for not doing it if it looks okay. Please remember, ALL of my comments are predicated on "IF IT LOOKS OKAY!" See above again if you forget. 1. Production, the customer has to be contacted to get approval. Very slow for almost no money. Think about it, you can't put it back together while you're waiting for approval. If you do it without approval you'll get hammered for unnecessary work. If the customer asks for the old parts and "IT LOOKS OKAY", you'll be busted for unnecessary work. Some people would demand their money back in that situation. 2. Self interest, if it fails they'll be back and you'll get paid again. Bear in mind these aren't my reasonings, they're just things I picked up on in a few years of mechanic work. Also note I'm NOT in that line of work anymore. I don't like production mechanic work. I used to enjoy working on my own stuff but I'm older now and just as soon let someone else fool with anything major these days. I can't even justify the $10 I save on oil changes vs. the hour it takes me to do one at home from start to cleaned up. So, were you ripped off? No, I don't think so. I think it was just bad luck. That hose on my wife's '93 Ramcharger (yes a magnum engine like in your '99) lasted 180,000 miles. My '93 Ramcharger is at 150,000 miles on the original hose(s). Why yes, I HAVE adopted the "if it ain't broke dont' fix it attitude", glad you asked. But when I DO fix things I do it all so it doesn't have to be done again, like that stinking little PITA hard to get to hose. Now that I've covered the "stinking little PITA hose" to death, did you know the leak "might" be the intake gasket and NOT related to the infamous "stinking little hose?" Until you can get it apart you can't be certain. That happened to the wife's '93 Ramcharger as well. >I can't imagine replacing the water pump without replacing the bypass hose. >To replace the water pump on a gasoline powered '99 you have to remove the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> repairs already performed. My question is shouldn't they have inspected >> the hose when the water pump and thermostat were replaced? Any ideas? That is why any good service writer or mechanic should package in those lower cost parts that are know to cause problems as part of the job especially for any vehicle as old as a 99. The customer knows the cost up front and knows you are a pro-active service center. You send the job out knowing that the probability of that vehicle coming back with a related failure is very low, you make alittle money off the part and labor without raping the cust., there are no come backs and everybody is happy. It is called service and in my opinion sending out any job with even a slightly questionable part with out atleast contacting the cust is not considered service. You would think that shops would be trying to find all the work they can, that's how they make money. I think any person would rather say that there repair cost alittle more than they expected then say that after spending all that money they still had problems and had to take there vehicle back to the shop. Makes no sense to me. Tracy, inspecting a hose for wear-n-tear is an objective view. If, at the time maintenance was being performed, the mechanic determined that your bypass hose were not so far gone that it required replacing, was his professional opinion. Up until the day you took the truck in for the maintenance, I will assume you've never had a problem with the bypass hose. So, had the mechanic replaced that hose and told you later that he did so because he thought it should have been replaced, your comment below would focus on whether or not you think the mechanic "ripped you off" by replacing a perfectly good hose with a new one! Auto maintenance is not brain surgery and a good mechanic will advise you as to when to replace hoses, fluids, filters, plugs, etc... Don't blame the mechanic because a hose failed. You have a '99 2500 and that bypass hose was probably the original hose. I'm surprised it lasted this long :-) > I recently had major repairs to my '99 Dodge Ram 2500. I had the timing > chain cover and gears, water pump, and thermostat replaced, as well as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > repairs already performed. My question is shouldn't they have inspected > the hose when the water pump and thermostat were replaced? Any ideas? > because he thought it should have been replaced, your comment > below would focus on whether or not you think the mechanic > "ripped you off" by replacing a perfectly good hose with a new one! Bullshit. No mechanic in his right mind would replace a water pump and re-use a $2 hose. To do so is complete incompetence, given the cost of the replacement hose vs. the amount of labor required to get to it. >Bullshit. No mechanic in his right mind would replace a water pump and >re-use a $2 hose. Does a by-pass hose really cost $2.00, or is that hyperbole, there-by making the rest of your statement suspect? bb I did a quick search online and found them ranging in price from $14.99 to $4.59. Given the hourly rate for an automotive technician to get that far into this repair the difference between $2 and $15 (at the high end) is insignificant and not replacing it makes me suspect the technician in question. Before the repair was even started he should have said "lets replace all your belts and hoses because it will cost you less now than later" and she could have made up her own mind. I don't think Tom's statement is the least suspect. >>Bullshit. No mechanic in his right mind would replace a water pump and >>re-use a $2 hose. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > bb Let's expand on your post for a minute. I'm NOT knocking you, it's just a good place to make a point. I doubt ANY shop is buying parts on the internet. When I was doing this for a living we bought things from retail outlets, mostly NAPA motor parts, remember when it WAS motor parts? Anyway we got jobber prices, for the sake of argument, let's say your $15.00 is retail and $10.00 is jobber cost. In the early to mid seventies our (the one shop where I KNEW what it was, it's probably more now ) markup was 182%. So now we're at $18.20 retail for the hose alone. Now let's consider labor. I know I'm on thin ice with the magnum engine but did the job the original poster have done require the A/C compressor and bracket be removed? If not I think those need to be removed to get to the intake end of the hose? (See these--->???, those are question marks, means I'm asking a question and assuming to be true until shown otherwise) How much labor is that? .3, .4, .5 hours? At what labor rate? $80 , $100/ hr? So now maybe we're talking around an extra $75 for the hose that might have looked okay? Since my other post in this thread I had another thought. It's also possible the shop didn't do the original job correctly and are trying to cover their a.s, as it were with a red herring. We may never know the entire story here. >I did a quick search online and found them ranging in price from $14.99 to >$4.59. Given the hourly rate for an automotive technician to get that far [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> bb I only disagree with only one point - the AC pump and it's bracket need to be moved to get to the water pump anyway. > Let's expand on your post for a minute. I'm NOT knocking you, it's just a > good place to make a point. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > cover their a.s, as it were with a red herring. We may never know the > entire story here. Thanks Ed, I knew I was on thin ice here. When I did my engine swap I did all the major work while it was out of the truck, access was much easier. >I only disagree with only one point - the AC pump and it's bracket need to >be moved to get to the water pump anyway. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> cover their a.s, as it were with a red herring. We may never know the >> entire story here. > >Bullshit. No mechanic in his right mind would replace a water pump and > >re-use a $2 hose. > > Does a by-pass hose really cost $2.00, or is that hyperbole, there-by > making the rest of your statement suspect? Even if it were $10, so what? You still have to remove it from the pump to replace the pump and its is an inexpensive hose that damn well should have been replaced since it was half removed anyway.  SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving >> >Bullshit. No mechanic in his right mind would replace a water pump and >> >re-use a $2 hose. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > replace the pump and its is an inexpensive hose that damn well should have > been replaced since it was half removed anyway. Hell, I can't remember but a handful of time when replacing a pump that I didn't have to cut or otherwise damage the bypass hose to get it off, so it is ALWAYS smart to replace them. Even a simple minded shadetree mechanic would replace the hose(s) >>Bullshit. No mechanic in his right mind would replace a water pump and >>re-use a $2 hose. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >bb If Tom wrote it - believe it. I've never seen him wrong on any truck mechanical question in all the years we've been here. beekeep > Does a by-pass hose really cost $2.00, or is that hyperbole, there-by > making the rest of your statement suspect? Awww.... ya done caught me in a fib... Gates part # 22038 sells for $2.70 at Rock Auto. Yep - my whole post is complete bullshit, because I missed the price by 70 cents. > Awww.... ya done caught me in a fib... Gates part # 22038 sells for $2.70 > at Rock Auto. > > Yep - my whole post is complete bullshit, because I missed the price by 70 > cents. Well geez, 70 cents is almost a dollar which would make the hose price nearly 50% more than stated! Can anyone trust someone nearly 50% off in what they say? [This is known as the "K&N line of cost reasoning" and we all know how that goes!] Just my 70 cents. SMH Technically Tom's 35% off. Egad, he's slipping. Stay away from the light Tom! I haven't gone for the K&N hype. What is this "cost reasoning" of which you speak? > Well geez, 70 cents is almost a dollar which would make > the hose price nearly 50% more than stated! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > SMH > Technically Tom's 35% off. Egad, he's slipping. Stay away from the light > Tom! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> [This is known as the "K&N line of cost reasoning" and we >> all know how that goes!] It's been awhile man, why don't you refresh us! >> Just my 70 cents. >> >> SMH >> Technically Tom's 35% off. Egad, he's slipping. Stay away from the light >> Tom! [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It's been awhile man, why don't you refresh us! I just need to know which type of torque wrench is better for installing a K&N filter. >>> Technically Tom's 35% off. Egad, he's slipping. Stay away from the >>> light Tom! [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I just need to know which type of torque wrench is better for installing a > K&N filter. A Digital! Which ever type you choose, I suggest 3.61 to 5.31 Newton-Meters to properly seat it. >>> Technically Tom's 35% off. Egad, he's slipping. Stay away from the >>> light Tom! [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I just need to know which type of torque wrench is better for installing a > K&N filter. >>>> [This is known as the "K&N line of cost reasoning" and we >>>> all know how that goes!] [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I just need to know which type of torque wrench is better for installing a > K&N filter. Just make sure that you also use the enclosed speed stickers, they are, after all, good for at least another 5hp! > Technically Tom's 35% off. Egad, he's slipping. Stay away from the light > Tom! > > I haven't gone for the K&N hype. What is this "cost reasoning" of which > you speak? Oh no you don't! SMH >> because he thought it should have been replaced, your comment >> below would focus on whether or not you think the mechanic [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > re-use a $2 hose. To do so is complete incompetence, given the cost of > the replacement hose vs. the amount of labor required to get to it. Tom in general, is suspect! <BG> Tom is a general I would follow into the depths on any Dodge. Oops. I misread "in general" for "is a general" >>> because he thought it should have been replaced, your comment >>> below would focus on whether or not you think the mechanic [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Tom in general, is suspect! <BG> I second that! I understand Tom has stuffed so much knowledge into his brain that, he keeps having to find increasingly larger hats to put on his noggin, and he's seriously top-heavy! OTOH, I learn something new every day... and forget two! Bryan ;^) Ed H wrote: > Tom is a general I would follow into the depths on any Dodge. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > > Tom in general, is suspect! <BG> >>> because he thought it should have been replaced, your comment >>> below would focus on whether or not you think the mechanic [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Tom in general, is suspect! <BG> Tom's a General? beekeep I really appreciate the information from all of you who replied. I got a call from the mechanic this morning. They say that the hose could have gone at anytime, and I am responsible for parts ($6.50 for the kit) and labor ($74.50 an hour). I do understand that the need for a hose being replaced is objective view of the mechanic, but considering I just shelled out $3,000 last Wednesday for all the other repairs, I guess I am just little pissy about paying them anymore money. Especially considering they placed new parts on either side of an old hose. I am by NO means very mechanically inclined, but even I know, that old hoses don't hold up to new parts very well. So, thanks again for your help. I would tell then that if they do make it right with you (considerable discount) that you will never deal with them again and make it well known to your friends of their second rate work. Word of mouth advertising works both ways. SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > I really appreciate the information from all of you who replied. I got a > call from the mechanic this morning. They say that the hose could have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mechanically inclined, but even I know, that old hoses don't hold up to > new parts very well. So, thanks again for your help. I couldn't resist... I hope you have a typo. If they make it right you'd never again deal with them? Editting: verb - the act of changing a well thought out argument in to the exact opposite of what was intended. >I would tell then that if they do make it right with you (considerable > discount) that you will never deal with them again and make it well known [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> mechanically inclined, but even I know, that old hoses don't hold up to >> new parts very well. So, thanks again for your help. Yes, it was a typo. If they don't make it right after the second rate job they did the first time... SignatureIf at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving > I couldn't resist... > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >> mechanically inclined, but even I know, that old hoses don't hold up to > >> new parts very well. So, thanks again for your help. Under the circumstances they should make a "good will" arrangement with her. If you can't get free labor a huge honkin' discount should be made, but that's just me. Penny wise pound foolish seems to rule business anymore. >I would tell then that if they do make it right with you (considerable > discount) that you will never deal with them again and make it well known [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> mechanically inclined, but even I know, that old hoses don't hold up to >> new parts very well. So, thanks again for your help. > Under the circumstances they should make a "good will" arrangement with > her. If you can't get free labor a huge honkin' discount should be made, > but that's just me. Penny wise pound foolish seems to rule business > anymore. Failing that, she should at least post the name and address of this shop. I'm sure a few of us could take it from there. Roy I paid the price to get my truck back. The only thing I didn't pay for was the towing fee ($181 for a whole 12 miles). I dind't deal with them anymore after the service manager became exceedingly condescending to me over the phone. I let my husband deal with the a.s. As I said before, I am not mechanincally inclined, but I do have basic working knowledge. At least this guy didn't try to get me to pay for "blinker fluid" like the guy from the lube place did. >I paid the price to get my truck back. The only thing I didn't pay for was > the towing fee ($181 for a whole 12 miles). I dind't deal with them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > least this guy didn't try to get me to pay for "blinker fluid" like the > guy from the lube place did. Name and location please. Would be nice to let other know of it so they don't become potential victims. >I paid the price to get my truck back. The only thing I didn't pay for was >the towing fee ($181 for a whole 12 miles). I dind't deal with them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >least this guy didn't try to get me to pay for "blinker fluid" like the >guy from the lube place did. You don't change your blinker fluid regularly? That's just good PM like changing hoses and belts at regular intervals. When's lhe last time you changed the hubcap gaskets? beekeep | >I paid the price to get my truck back. The only thing I didn't pay for was | >the towing fee ($181 for a whole 12 miles). I dind't deal with them [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | | beekeep And let us not forget to change the air in the tires when they are rotated... PcolaPhil To Reply remove SPAMNOT. You and I are Friends....... You Fight, I Fight........ You Hurt, I Hurt........ You Cry, I Cry......... You Jump Off a Bridge.... I'm Gonna Miss Your Dumb a.s!!!! I was low on blinker fluid a couple days ago. Turns out Auto Zone had 12 ounces for 4.99, which is a really good price. It was in the same aisle with sky hooks, red lantern oil, and a bucket of steam. Oh, and they had snipe scent air freshener. I had to go to Home Depot for left handed crescent wrenches, though. SignatureChristopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . I dind't deal with them > >anymore after the service manager became exceedingly condescending to me > >over the phone. I let my husband deal with the a.s. As I said before, I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > beekeep >I was low on blinker fluid a couple days ago. Turns out Auto Zone >had 12 ounces for 4.99, which is a really good price. It was in >the same aisle with sky hooks, red lantern oil, and a bucket of >steam. Oh, and they had snipe scent air freshener. I had to go to >Home Depot for left handed crescent wrenches, though. You can get the sky hooks on the net: http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=31 And a Left Handed MetricScrewdriver to go with that wrench: http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=21 beekeep > At >>least this guy didn't try to get me to pay for "blinker fluid" like the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > beekeep Blinker fluid - http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=6 Muffler Bearing - http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=10 Piston Return Spring - http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=27 Don't pay too much for specialty items. FMB (North Mexico) >> At >>>least this guy didn't try to get me to pay for "blinker fluid" like the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > FMB > (North Mexico) I just had to look.... Got browsing around and ended up buying the awd kit for the wife's T&C. Hell it was only $450 and now I can put a blade on it and she can help with the snow...if we ever get any. Maybe ole Snoidiot uses them.. Denny > I just had to look.... Got browsing around and ended up buying the > awd kit for the wife's T&C. Hell it was only $450 and now I can put a > blade on it and she can help with the snow...if we ever get any. > Maybe ole Snoidiot uses them.. Pink performance parts? I'm about to install a radiator insulator. Not the fancy KaleCo one, I get the disposable ones made by Anheuser-Busch. It's going down to 19°F tonight (extreme cold for Atlanta) and I want a bit of heat in the cab when I get off work in the morning. KaleCo radiator insulator: http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=35 SignatureKen >> At >>>least this guy didn't try to get me to pay for "blinker fluid" like the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > FMB > (North Mexico) Dude, that is just too damn funny! >> because he thought it should have been replaced, your comment >> below would focus on whether or not you think the mechanic [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > re-use a $2 hose. To do so is complete incompetence, given the cost of > the replacement hose vs. the amount of labor required to get to it. I wonder how much damage to the hose was caused by the mechanic twisting and pulling on the hose to get it off? Personally I think she is getting "hosed"! If I had to remove one end on the suspect hose to replace the pump it would have been replaced. Certainly, without question for a $2 hose. When ever I have had a failure with the coolant system of any of my vehicles I have replaced ALL the hoses, unless I had replaced them fairly recently. I would not expect a shop to go to that extreme, but I find it cheap insurance in the long run. Greg > I recently had major repairs to my '99 Dodge Ram 2500. I had the timing > chain cover and gears, water pump, and thermostat replaced, as well as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > repairs already performed. My question is shouldn't they have inspected > the hose when the water pump and thermostat were replaced? Any ideas? I would think that the bypass hose would always be replaced when servicing the thermostat, because pulling the thermostat in V-8s from the late 1990s models involves quite a bit of disassembly (remove alt, a/c, and brackets). They relocated the themostat housing in subsequent models. I'm a cynic, but I can imagine that perhaps your shop didn't have the correct hose laying around, and wanted to get your job out and billed. Now that I'm mad at the mechanic, I also imagine that he damaged the bypass hose by prying at it with a screwdriver :) Martin |
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