Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / February 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Most People Will Never Know About Biodiesel

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
csmmblpvgfml@yahoo.com - 03 Feb 2007 11:55 GMT
What kind of difference can the use biodiesel make when it comes to
changing the world for the better? Perhaps the biggest impact of the
use of biodiesel fuel instead of just plain diesel is on the human
health and the environment.
One of the biggest differences that biodiesel make is with regards to
smog. Using biodiesel actually reduces smog. Both unburned
hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides in diesel fuel account for most of
the particulates in air pollution. When you use biodiesel product or
homemade biodiesel there is a substantial reduction of unburned
hydrocarbons and if you are using a blend that is right for your
machine. Tests that have been conducted according to EPA regulations
have shown that the hydrocarbon exhaust emissions that biodiesel are
half that of that measured for diesel fuel.
Can biodiesel make more energy? Unlike the burning of fossil fuels,
the burning biodiesel fuels actually gives back more energy to the
environment that it takes. Lifecycle studies of biodiesel production
show that for every unit of fossil energy it takes to manufacture ...
http://biodiesemde.blogspot.com/#
SnoMan - 03 Feb 2007 13:14 GMT
>One of the biggest differences that biodiesel make is with regards to
>smog. Using biodiesel actually reduces smog.

Not true. While Biodiesel can produce less hydrocarbons it does
produce more NOx and not even the chemists are sure why (and this has
been known for a very long time) . It is not the magic diesel fuel
replacement than some promote it to be. Plus by nature most "bio"
products use potentail food sources be it for  human or animal feeds
and the answer does not lay in finding more sources to feed a hungry
and growing fuel apetite but in using fuel more wisely too. It is a
pipe dream to think we can grow or "brew" our way out of this. Same on
gas side which has its own problem. THey want you to use corn to make
"gas" but two big problems with that. First if all the corn grown was
converted to gas and left none for food it would only provide about 25
to 30% of daily fuel needs at current levels. The next problem is that
achol is considerd a preburnt fuel chemically and has low energy yeild
per gallon compared to gas and it also give off about 40 to 50% more
CO2 per mile than gas (GM's own testing firgures). Even if you use
Biomass to make ethanol for grass and wood waste you still have the
CO2 issue. Few politicians want to deal with real issues here and tell
the public what they want to hear and that we can grow are way out of
this because the truth will not keep them in office long because
people do not want or are not ready to hear the truth yet.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Max Dodge - 03 Feb 2007 16:40 GMT
>>One of the biggest differences that biodiesel make is with regards to
>>smog. Using biodiesel actually reduces smog.
>
> Not true. While Biodiesel can produce less hydrocarbons it does
> produce more NOx and not even the chemists are sure why (and this has
> been known for a very long time) .

However, if you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know
that smog is a result of particulate matter and CO emissions. These are
nearly 50% less (48% and 47% less respectively) than conventional diesel
fuel.

> Plus by nature most "bio"
> products use potentail food sources be it for  human or animal feeds

Not true. One of the main sources of raw material is used fryer oil. Another
is waste and byproducts from food processing and cooking. Both sources are
deemed unfit for human consumption.

> It is a
> pipe dream to think we can grow or "brew" our way out of this.

Generally false. We cannot place our entire future in either ethanol or
biodiesel. However, we CAN reduce emissions that contribute to global
warming, reduce dependance on oil (foreign or domestic) and reduce the costs
of fuel overall by diversifying our sources. As such, three major benefits
CAN be had from bio fuels.

> THey want you to use corn to make
> "gas" but two big problems with that. First if all the corn grown was
> converted to gas and left none for food it would only provide about 25
> to 30% of daily fuel needs at current levels.

This assumes no further research into the bio fuels. Switchgrass has proven
to yield far more energy per ton than corn.

> Even if you use
> Biomass to make ethanol for grass and wood waste you still have the
> CO2 issue.

CO2 is better than CO, in that the counter to this is vegetation.

> Few politicians want to deal with real issues here and tell
> the public what they want to hear and that we can grow are way out of
> this because the truth will not keep them in office long because
> people do not want or are not ready to hear the truth yet.

What exactly is the truth? We've seen very little of it in your post here.
Signature

Max

Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>One of the biggest differences that biodiesel make is with regards to
>>smog. Using biodiesel actually reduces smog.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
SnoMan - 03 Feb 2007 22:55 GMT
>>>One of the biggest differences that biodiesel make is with regards to
>>>smog. Using biodiesel actually reduces smog.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>is waste and byproducts from food processing and cooking. Both sources are
>deemed unfit for human consumption.

Aw the clueless Max armed with a little bit of knowledge and ready to
lead the fuel world. Sure some stuff is unfit for humans and made into
animal feed or fertilizer.  But I gues that does not matter either.

>> It is a
>> pipe dream to think we can grow or "brew" our way out of this.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>of fuel overall by diversifying our sources. As such, three major benefits
>CAN be had from bio fuels.

This really says nothing at all, pure jiberish. YOu will NOT reduce
CO2 emission with ethanol (you will make it worse) and Biodiesel will
make NOx worse too and diesel are already BIG NOx generator making
about 5 to 5 times as much NOx per mile as a gas truck. They have
gotten away with it in the past but not much longer. If you want to
reduce dependance on imported oil, you have to reduce consumption as
well big time. Right now we import over 50% or our oil and by 2020 the
DOE say we will be importing 80% or more. It is pure foolishness to
continue as we are using as much as we can and just look for more
sources to rob to pay for it. Watch food prices in next 3 to 5 year if
more biofuels are made because you will pay for it twice, once in fuel
and again in food cost. The answer lie in a coal based fuel and more
efficent use of it too being that US has the largest know coal
reserves in the world by a long shot (about a 300 to 500 year supply
based on projected usage trends and this is known reserves not maybe).
The problem is that oil lobby runs most of DC and they do not want to
see the glove passed to coal

>> THey want you to use corn to make
>> "gas" but two big problems with that. First if all the corn grown was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>This assumes no further research into the bio fuels. Switchgrass has proven
>to yield far more energy per ton than corn.

They can burn the midnight oil on biodiesel but it has to do with its
chemical bonds thant causes NOx problems. In the past it was not a
problem but it is now. Sure switch grass process has some promiss but
I do not think you realize the volumes being dealt with here. Plus if
you need say about one half a billion gallons of gas/fuel a day (close
to what we use now) that mean you will need 700 to 900 million gallons
of ethanol because it has a much lower energy contant and it weight
about 30% more too wich mean that tanker truck can carry less of it.
If you go by the wieght of the fuel in the tanker truck, one pound of
ethanol has about one half the energy of a gallon of gas so basically
twice as many tanker trips are needed to deleivery the same amount of
BTU's which means even more fuel delivering it too!  They do not tell
you that though because they like to keep John Q Public in the dark as
much as possible and dangle a carrot for them sometimes on energy
solutions.

>> Even if you use
>> Biomass to make ethanol for grass and wood waste you still have the
>> CO2 issue.
>
>CO2 is better than CO, in that the counter to this is vegetation.

Poy, you really show your lack of knowledge on this issue. CO2 is a
greenhouse gas and is why earth is heating up. It is being produced
far faster than biology can remove it and it get worse every year. You
have heard about the planet Venus right? Sure it is closer to the sun
but it has basically the same tempature day or night (around 700
degrees) because its atmossphere is mostly CO2. CO2 is volume is bad
news and it has been rising at record level and higher CO2 emision for
fthanol will make it even worse. THis is one of those bite the bullet
and work on it now and maybe suffer some hardship or wait until it
bites you in the butt and pay far more dearly

>> Few politicians want to deal with real issues here and tell
>> the public what they want to hear and that we can grow are way out of
>> this because the truth will not keep them in office long because
>> people do not want or are not ready to hear the truth yet.
>
>What exactly is the truth? We've seen very little of it in your post here.

Not yours that for sure. DO a bit a research and you will see than I
am not blowing smoke. You just have issues with the messanger and the
message that all.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Max Dodge - 04 Feb 2007 04:21 GMT
> Aw the clueless Max armed with a little bit of knowledge and ready to
> lead the fuel world. Sure some stuff is unfit for humans and made into
> animal feed or fertilizer.  But I gues that does not matter either.

Again, many sources of biodiesel are byproducts that are unfit for
consumption. Do I need to repeat again? Or will you be drinking fryer oil?

>>Generally false. We cannot place our entire future in either ethanol or
>>biodiesel. However, we CAN reduce emissions that contribute to global
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> make NOx worse too and diesel are already BIG NOx generator making
> about 5 to 5 times as much NOx per mile as a gas truck.

Reducing CO isn't an issue: TREES do that. Reducing CO IS an issue, and
nothing is proven to handle that better than changing fuels. NOx emissions
are being reduced with new technology; particulates and CO2 have not.
However, simply by changing fuel, two out of four major emissions concerns
are reduced by nearly 50%. IOW, its worth the change, despite what your
uninformed opinion claims.

They have
> gotten away with it in the past but not much longer. If you want to
> reduce dependance on imported oil, you have to reduce consumption as
> well big time.

False. We all have seen the reports on North Slope reserves and Gulf of
Mexico finds. Further, we've got unstudied regions such as those west of
Florida and other offshore areas. Go one step further, with the increased
price and demand of fuel, it follows that it is more economically viable to
explore and drill in places formerly thought economically unfeasable.

> Right now we import over 50% or our oil and by 2020 the
> DOE say we will be importing 80% or more. It is pure foolishness to
> continue as we are using as much as we can and just look for more
> sources to rob to pay for it.

While true, its plain that we have domestic sources that could supplant the
foreign sources.

> Watch food prices in next 3 to 5 year if
> more biofuels are made because you will pay for it twice, once in fuel
> and again in food cost.

Not if they explore non-food sources such as switchgrass. Furthermore,
technology has already made it so we can grow more food than we need;
stockpiles have been destroyed and others have been sent free of charge
(although arms deals were struck) to USSR and other nations. I'm not saying
its a great idea at this point to go to ethanol, but the problems with it
are within reach of technology. Whether or not we as a nation are capable of
handling the problems before we screw it all up is yet to be seen.

> The answer lie in a coal based fuel and more
> efficent use of it too being that US has the largest know coal
> reserves in the world by a long shot (about a 300 to 500 year supply
> based on projected usage trends and this is known reserves not maybe).
> The problem is that oil lobby runs most of DC and they do not want to
> see the glove passed to coal

Again, false. The oil lobby is said to be losing its grip on the title of
largest lobby, and other interests are moving in. Coal may be a solution,
but its economic viability parallels that of ethanol at this point.

> They can burn the midnight oil on biodiesel but it has to do with its
> chemical bonds thant causes NOx problems. In the past it was not a
> problem but it is now.

The NOx emissions are being dealt with on common diesel fuel, so it stands
to reason that biodiesel will benefit from the same solution.

> Sure switch grass process has some promiss but
> I do not think you realize the volumes being dealt with here. Plus if

Switchgrass is an ethanol source, and has little to do with biodiesel at
this point.

> you need say about one half a billion gallons of gas/fuel a day (close
> to what we use now) that mean you will need 700 to 900 million gallons
> of ethanol because it has a much lower energy contant and it weight
> about 30% more too wich mean that tanker truck can carry less of it.

This assumes we use the exact same configuration of our present IC engines.
Clearly if a drag car burning alcohol can make quarter mile passes equal to
or better than a gasoline burning car, we can put vehicles on the highway
that burn ethanol in an efficient manner. However, I agree that ethanol is
not a pure solution at this point, thus my support of biodiesel.

>>CO2 is better than CO, in that the counter to this is vegetation.
>
> Poy, you really show your lack of knowledge on this issue. CO2 is a
> greenhouse gas and is why earth is heating up.

Um, yeah, but the reason so much of it is hanging about IS NOT because we
burn so much fuel, but because we eliminate so many forested acres in a
year.

It is being produced
> far faster than biology can remove it and it get worse every year.

Because we keep cutting down the "biology".

You
> have heard about the planet Venus right? Sure it is closer to the sun
> but it has basically the same tempature day or night (around 700
> degrees) because its atmossphere is mostly CO2. CO2 is volume is bad
> news and it has been rising at record level and higher CO2 emision for
> fthanol will make it even worse.

You get a kickback from Al Gore or something?

>>What exactly is the truth? We've seen very little of it in your post here.
>
> Not yours that for sure. DO a bit a research and you will see than I
> am not blowing smoke. You just have issues with the messanger and the
> message that all.

Wrong. I agree that ethanol is a false hope and will drive food prices
higher. However, my disagreement with you stems from your lack of knowledge
about biodiesel, and the rubbish you spew about conventional sources.

Signature

Max

Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>>>One of the biggest differences that biodiesel make is with regards to
>>>>smog. Using biodiesel actually reduces smog.
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
Nosey - 04 Feb 2007 06:07 GMT
Why do you let SnoMan get to you? We all know he is full of sh.t. Biodiesel
/may/ not be more than a crutch to get us to the next step, but I'm standing
quite firmly on that crutch right now. I make it for just over $1.00 a
gallon using a WASTE product that REDUCES greenhouse gasses. So, SnoMan,
f.ck off. Enjoy your $2.00 a gallon gasoline.
Signature

Ken

Roy - 04 Feb 2007 15:23 GMT
> Why do you let SnoMan get to you?

Ken, Max has found a new toy, please let him play with it for a bit. It
usually get's real good.

Roy

>We all know he is full of sh.t. Biodiesel /may/ not be more than a crutch
>to get us to the next step, but I'm standing quite firmly on that crutch
>right now. I make it for just over $1.00 a gallon using a WASTE product
>that REDUCES greenhouse gasses. So, SnoMan, f.ck off. Enjoy your $2.00 a
>gallon gasoline.
Nosey - 04 Feb 2007 18:29 GMT
> Ken, Max has found a new toy, please let him play with it for a bit. It
> usually get's real good.
>
> Roy

He struck a nerve. Biodiesel might not be the cure-all for our energy
needs but it's a damn good start. I just hate seeing un-informed
a.sholes trying to give it a bad name.
--
Ken
azwiley1 - 04 Feb 2007 19:24 GMT
>> Ken, Max has found a new toy, please let him play with it for a bit. It
>> usually get's real good.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Ken

Well, Ken, if it will make you feel better, when I get my diesel truck, I
plan on making and running my own BD as much and as often as I can!
Chris Thompson - 05 Feb 2007 04:17 GMT
I've thought about trying to make some for the tractor (I don't think I
would have the time or desire to try to feed the trucks fuel habit so ill
leave that to the b20) maybe someday ill have the time to research the
process thoroughly, but for now its the off-road stuff for ole blue out
there.

Signature

----------------------------
-Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Real Trucks don't NEED spark plugs.

>
>>> Ken, Max has found a new toy, please let him play with it for a bit. It
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Well, Ken, if it will make you feel better, when I get my diesel truck, I
> plan on making and running my own BD as much and as often as I can!
azwiley1 - 05 Feb 2007 04:21 GMT
> I've thought about trying to make some for the tractor (I don't think I
> would have the time or desire to try to feed the trucks fuel habit so ill
> leave that to the b20) maybe someday ill have the time to research the
> process thoroughly, but for now its the off-road stuff for ole blue out
> there.

I remember awhile back in Diesel Power mag and on Trucks, they outlined the
process and it seemed to be extremely easy to do.  A few hours time on your
part (after acquiring the products, which is really only 3, oil, lye and
methonal) would yield something like 30 gallons after 24 hours (IIRC)
Chris Thompson - 05 Feb 2007 04:29 GMT
>> I've thought about trying to make some for the tractor (I don't think I
>> would have the time or desire to try to feed the trucks fuel habit so ill
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> your part (after acquiring the products, which is really only 3, oil, lye
> and methonal) would yield something like 30 gallons after 24 hours (IIRC)

yes i remember watching that, but ive also seen it said to avoid
journeytoforever.org like a plauge (iirc that is the site the show was based
on) so my thoughts were to do a little more research and maybe ask ken a few
questions before i venture into it when im closer to being ready.  it never
hurts to take a little time to make sure your well informed.

Signature

----------------------------
-Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Real Trucks don't NEED spark plugs.

azwiley1 - 05 Feb 2007 04:38 GMT
> yes i remember watching that, but ive also seen it said to avoid
> journeytoforever.org like a plauge (iirc that is the site the show was
> based on) so my thoughts were to do a little more research and maybe ask
> ken a few questions before i venture into it when im closer to being
> ready.  it never hurts to take a little time to make sure your well
> informed.

What's the deal with that site?  Can't say I know much about it, or BD
(right now with owning a gasser) but I agree 100% it is something that I
would definitely want to know as much about as I could before I start
anything.
Nosey - 05 Feb 2007 05:51 GMT
>> yes i remember watching that, but ive also seen it said to avoid
>> journeytoforever.org like a plauge (iirc that is the site the show
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> that I would definitely want to know as much about as I could before
> I start anything.

The info at Journey to Forever is mostly right most of the time. The problem
is beginners can't spot the errors. I don't recommend anyone starts there. I
think the best info is at http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/ . If you can't
find what you are looking for there and still have questions
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc is a great forum.
Signature

Ken

Roy - 05 Feb 2007 13:45 GMT
>>> yes i remember watching that, but ive also seen it said to avoid
>>> journeytoforever.org like a plauge (iirc that is the site the show
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> looking for there and still have questions http://biodiesel.infopop.cc is
> a great forum.

Where is Craig or was it another Chris that seemed to be up on bio? He
struck me as having some decent info as well.
Craig C. - 05 Feb 2007 15:46 GMT
> Where is Craig or was it another Chris that seemed to be up on bio? He
> struck me as having some decent info as well.

I'm here.  A good place to go for general information that has links
to many different websites like the ones Ken posted is:

http://www.biodiesel.org/

or

http://www.biowillie.com/

The BD I have made has been purely for research purposes for school.
I have not burned my own brew in my truck.  I burn BioWillie B20.
There is a BioWillie station down the road and it is not worth my time
to brew my own batch.  (Not to mention, I only burn a tank every 3-4
months now since I ride the train to work and school).  It sounds like
Ken has much more "hands-on" in regards to using home-brewed BD Dodge
Trucks than I do.

My research is purely a feasibility study and the effects of BD (and
other alternative fuels) on the environment.  Many of my fellow
students are burning the fuel that we have made with no problems.

I'd be happy to help anyone with questions or guide you in the process
of making BD.

Craig C.
Chris Thompson - 05 Feb 2007 22:30 GMT
Roy,

Craig was more up on it than I was, I'm simply a proponent of the idea. and
I do run the b20 that I buy from the local shell station in both trucks.  my
info on the matter is personal experience running the 20% blend.

Signature

----------------------------
-Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Real Trucks don't NEED spark plugs.

>
>>>> yes i remember watching that, but ive also seen it said to avoid
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Where is Craig or was it another Chris that seemed to be up on bio? He
> struck me as having some decent info as well.
Roy - 05 Feb 2007 23:54 GMT
> Roy,
>
> Craig was more up on it than I was, I'm simply a proponent of the idea.
> and I do run the b20 that I buy from the local shell station in both
> trucks.  my info on the matter is personal experience running the 20%
> blend.

Your miles ahead of me. I was alway's concerned about it gelling. I had
thought that somewhere along the way one of ya had messed with it. Just
wasn't sure who

Roy
> ----------------------------
> -Chris
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>> Where is Craig or was it another Chris that seemed to be up on bio? He
>> struck me as having some decent info as well.
Nosey - 06 Feb 2007 04:50 GMT
> Your miles ahead of me. I was alway's concerned about it gelling. I
> had thought that somewhere along the way one of ya had messed with
> it. Just wasn't sure who
>
> Roy

We had a cold snap here a while back. It went down to 18°F. I left a sample
of 100% biodiesel from my last batch sitting on my driveway overnight in a
plastic soda bottle. It jelled completely at 18°. When it warmed up to 22°
it returned to a liquid state but it was still cloudy. It was mostly back to
normal by the time it got to 25°. Good thing I had a 50-50 bio-petro blend
in the tank that night. If I lived where you do I wouldn't fool with it at
all in the winter. It's unlikely you'd have any trouble with it in jelling
in Florida. Time for another CTD?
Signature

Ken

Roy - 06 Feb 2007 05:04 GMT
>> Your miles ahead of me. I was alway's concerned about it gelling. I
>> had thought that somewhere along the way one of ya had messed with
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> wouldn't fool with it at all in the winter. It's unlikely you'd have any
> trouble with it in jelling in Florida.

Mostly back to normal at 25. Seems it would plug a filter at 32. No thanks

>Time for another CTD?

Don't think so. The SRT is a real nice and actually functional car for me.
Real quick, feels like a 13.2-5 car. Goes I don't know how fast, I got out
of it at 145. I know I know, it was at 0300 on a I-95 and I was the only one
around. Anyway has 4 doors so the wife is happy at 70 it gets about 20 mpg.
It will go to FL in April so I'll have a better feel for it.
I'd be fibbing if I said I didn't miss the truck. But situations change.
Hell, it's Feb and still no plowable snow, so I moved it at the right time I
guess.

Roy
TBone - 05 Feb 2007 13:56 GMT
> > I've thought about trying to make some for the tractor (I don't think I
> > would have the time or desire to try to feed the trucks fuel habit so ill
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> part (after acquiring the products, which is really only 3, oil, lye and
> methonal) would yield something like 30 gallons after 24 hours (IIRC)

The problem is going to be getting the oil.  While it may now be free (if
you get lucky), if the demand goes up then these restaurants will begin
selling to the highest bidder.

Signature

If at first you don't succeed,  you're not cut out for skydiving

SnoMan - 04 Feb 2007 13:44 GMT
>> Aw the clueless Max armed with a little bit of knowledge and ready to
>> lead the fuel world. Sure some stuff is unfit for humans and made into
>> animal feed or fertilizer.  But I gues that does not matter either.
>
>Again, many sources of biodiesel are byproducts that are unfit for
>consumption. Do I need to repeat again? Or will you be drinking fryer oil?

Again narrow minded and not looking at big picture

>>>Generally false. We cannot place our entire future in either ethanol or
>>>biodiesel. However, we CAN reduce emissions that contribute to global
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>are reduced by nearly 50%. IOW, its worth the change, despite what your
>uninformed opinion claims.

YOur realy are clueless, tree will not do it not only because we male
far more on it than they can remove but there are less of them every
year as they are cut down for building materail and rain forest is
being cleared away at record rates. I can see you are one of these
head in the sansd guys that does not beleive that man is the cause or
that there is a seriuos problem. I gues California is full of S$!% to
because they passed alaw a while back limiting CO2 emissions for
industry and vehicles and other states are considering them too.
Detriot is fighting it vigorously (they will loose) because it will
mean a end to the HP wars and force them to make vehicles truely more
efficent and kinder to environment. If it was left to short sighted
people such as you it would get even worse. THe reality is we are slow
cooking ourslfs and even if we stop making CO2 today it will take 20
or 30 years for it to start to decline but but limiting it today we
can slow the rate of rise and lessen the peak impact it will have over
time or we can do it your way and rape and burn the earth.

> They have
>> gotten away with it in the past but not much longer. If you want to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>price and demand of fuel, it follows that it is more economically viable to
>explore and drill in places formerly thought economically unfeasable.

Again classic head in the sand. You talk before you read the fine
print . If all the oil on the north slope could be used as once there
is about a 6 month supply of it for US needs, that is it period. With
the gulf it is likely even less than that. Se politicains and oil
companies that promote this as a solution for people such as yourself
never tell you what it equals in days of potentail oil supply. To
someone such as yourself a find of even a potenail one billion berrels
sound like a answer to our need but the reality is that this is less
than a years supply at current need levels because oil is not
converted to usable fuel gallon for gallon and a lot is converted to
other products such as fertilized and plastics and such that we use
daily. John Q Public does not want to here this though so it is nver
talked about.

>> Right now we import over 50% or our oil and by 2020 the
>> DOE say we will be importing 80% or more. It is pure foolishness to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>While true, its plain that we have domestic sources that could supplant the
>foreign sources.

Our domestic source are long passed their peak capacity and are in
decline because of our thirst for oil we have wasted a lot of it. The
US has less than 5% of the world population but uses more than 25% of
the oil in the world) Also the US has the "honor" of being the only
major power in the world that uses far more oil than we produce. THe
real reason we went into Iraq was for the oil, make no mistake about
it because Iraq is basically tied with Russia for the second largest
proven reserves of oil in the world with Saudi Arabia first. Had there
been no oil we would not have been there but current admin will never
tell you that.

>> Watch food prices in next 3 to 5 year if
>> more biofuels are made because you will pay for it twice, once in fuel
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>are within reach of technology. Whether or not we as a nation are capable of
>handling the problems before we screw it all up is yet to be seen.

It is not that simple because everything you use will have impact for
animal feed to fertilers to compost and much to grow food. If you
change this balance there will be trouble down the road. The answer
lies in serious conservation efforts starting today not trying to
bandaid fix it.

>> The answer lie in a coal based fuel and more
>> efficent use of it too being that US has the largest know coal
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>largest lobby, and other interests are moving in. Coal may be a solution,
>but its economic viability parallels that of ethanol at this point.

Not at all. Current admin pushed for new oil and natural gass fired
power plants, not coal because of oil lobby, The reality is that 10
pounds of caol has same approx BTU content as a gallon of crude and
today  while one ton of coal is trading for $40.50 that same amount of
energy in crude is about $265! Again, they never bother to tell you
that either. The less the public knows about true energy costs and
limitation the better with current admin

>> They can burn the midnight oil on biodiesel but it has to do with its
>> chemical bonds thant causes NOx problems. In the past it was not a
>> problem but it is now.
>
>The NOx emissions are being dealt with on common diesel fuel, so it stands
>to reason that biodiesel will benefit from the same solution.

YEs and no because they are going to have to use some brute force
methods of like urea injection to combine with high NOx levels to
redure them inert but that also means they want less to start with to
remove which means lower boosts levels on diesels (the higher the
boost, the more NOx) and they will want fuels that produce lowest
possible NOx when burned which is not Biodiesel

>> Sure switch grass process has some promiss but
>> I do not think you realize the volumes being dealt with here. Plus if
>
>Switchgrass is an ethanol source, and has little to do with biodiesel at
>this point.

Agreed but it goes with th philospy that we can "grow" our way out of
this when we cannot and like Biodiesel adds to NOx problems ethanol
adds to CO2 problem which the promotoers of either NEVER talk about

>> you need say about one half a billion gallons of gas/fuel a day (close
>> to what we use now) that mean you will need 700 to 900 million gallons
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>that burn ethanol in an efficient manner. However, I agree that ethanol is
>not a pure solution at this point, thus my support of biodiesel.

I used to drag cars with Methanol 20 years ago but we used a LOT more
of it in a quarter maile than with did with gas because it has a far
lower heat content abd it requires a A/F ratio of around 4 or 5 to 1
WOT to make best power verse 10 to 12 to one for hioctane or other
exotic petro based fuels, Achol does well in a drag car because of
octane and  the amount it cools mixture to make it denser (largely due
in part to the much large amount of it needed and higher cooling
properties when it evaporates) but it stll take a lot more fuel. THey
could make achol a more viable fuel for cars if they would remove
compatabilty with gas completely and use much higher CR's that alchol
would permitt (12 or 13 to 1) which would extract more energy from
fuel during expansion and inprove MPG and lower CO2 because less fuel
would be needed to do work. I do not see this happening though because
of americas love for 87 octane gas as the cure all. Same with propane
(which is the closest  thing to a purfect motor fuel today with very
low emissions without any exotic control) as it could allow for us of
CR's of 13 to 1 and more and better MPG too. Today dual fuel cars that
use gas or propane are far from extracting the tru potenail of propane
as a motor fuel because it is used in engine designed for gas and not
from ground up for propane, Granted propane need a heavier tank than
gas but fuel weight about 4 lbs a gallon vs gas weighs around 6.5
(depending on tempature) and achol over 8 lbs /gal. In BTU contant per
lb of fuel, Propane is higher than gas and even slighter better than
diesel but this is not exploted at all. TOne of the reason the diesel
get better MPG as a rule is because the very high CR's that they
require to run extract more energy from expanding gas. Us a higher
octane fuel in a IC engine (like 12 to 1 and more) with proper fuel
and you will see a big imptovement in "gas" MPG but again the love
affair with 87 octane prevents this.

>>>CO2 is better than CO, in that the counter to this is vegetation.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>burn so much fuel, but because we eliminate so many forested acres in a
>year.

Not really, it has been rising since 1800's when records have been
kept and is rising even faster. It is pretty nieve to think that you
can dump more and more of it into the atmosphere and nature will take
it out. Man has upset the balance in about 100 years that nature took
millions of years to achieve

>It is being produced
>> far faster than biology can remove it and it get worse every year.
>
>Because we keep cutting down the "biology".

Not that simple but it plays well to head in the sand crowd.

>You
>> have heard about the planet Venus right? Sure it is closer to the sun
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>You get a kickback from Al Gore or something?

No, I like to read and learn. I have a engineering back ground and
kids in college that are open minded to and "dad" has to beable to
help answer questions they may have or that are debated in some
classes they take so I make it a point to kept well informed. I do not
consider myself a treehugger or a Al Gore flucky but rather a realist
that does not take things at face value  and understnads that the
environemt on aits resource are complex and limited and we have two
choice to evolve and adapt to live in harmony with it or keep our head
in the sand and hope it will go away. Make no mistake it will catchup
with us and force a terible price on us if it is ignored. At this
stage we can only try to mitigate the damage and lesen the peak impact
or choose ignorance with head in the sand and one day see a complete
collapse of ecosystem on planet earth. There is no avoiding this beast
and its "anger" to be tamed when it shows itself will be determined by
how much we try to appease it or ignore it now.  

>>>What exactly is the truth? We've seen very little of it in your post here.
>>
>> Not yours that for sure. DO a bit a research and you will see than I
>> am not blowing smoke. You just have issues with the messanger and the
>> message that all.

>Wrong. I agree that ethanol is a false hope and will drive food prices
>higher. However, my disagreement with you stems from your lack of knowledge
>about biodiesel, and the rubbish you spew about conventional sources.

There is not question at all that you really have no understanding of
the bigger picture here (you would do well with current admin on there
energy policy staff) and that you are only looking for a very short
term answer that looks good on surface and tells you want you want to
hear without reading the fine print to keep your big iron viable
regardless of long term impact on our children and their children. One
day you are going to be force to take off the rose color glasses and
see the truth or you can take them off know and adapt sooner over time
and watch others that kept head in sand pay a bigger price because
they were not "ready" for it.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Max Dodge - 04 Feb 2007 17:52 GMT
> Again narrow minded and not looking at big picture

So I'm narrow minded because I prefer to think of fryer oil and waste from
rendering plants as non-consumables that are a great source of fuel? Please,
enlighten me, is it ketchup that makes them palatable?

> YOur realy are clueless, tree will not do it not only because we male
> far more on it than they can remove but there are less of them every
> year as they are cut down for building materail and rain forest is
> being cleared away at record rates.

Again, if we reduce the emissions of a diesel engine by 50%, this HELPS the
trees deal with the CO2. Second, even while you argue with me as to WHY the
trees/vegetation cannot handle the CO2, you reiterate the EXACT reason that
I've cited as to WHY the trees cannot handle it.

> I can see you are one of these
> head in the sansd guys that does not beleive that man is the cause or
> that there is a seriuos problem.

Wrong again. Man has altered the ecosystem, no doubt about it. However, if
we avoid the opportunity to cut back on our use of fossil fuels, we doom
ourselves. What you are suggesting is a solution to foreign oil dependancy,
NOT an ecological/environmental change.

> I gues California is full of S$!% to
> because they passed alaw a while back limiting CO2 emissions for
> industry and vehicles and other states are considering them too.

California IS full of sh.t. If they had done something to limit the
explosive developement of land back in the 60's and 70's, the drastic
environmental policy would not be necessary or as stifling. As is typical
for the human species, California is trying to reverse the symptoms of the
problem, rather than addressing the problem. If "A" happens, and "B"
suffers, we change "C" to solve the problem, rather than addressing the "A"
event. Case in point, the crusher law that awarded credits to industry
towards emissions that were out of control.

> Detriot is fighting it vigorously (they will loose) because it will
> mean a end to the HP wars and force them to make vehicles truely more
> efficent and kinder to environment.

Short of changing to a totally different design than the reciprocating
piston, there is no way to find great gains in efficiency. What needs to
happen is a method to integrate our current level of vehicle technology with
better methods of mass transit.

> If it was left to short sighted
> people such as you it would get even worse.

"Short sighted people like" me feel that rail transit and electricity from
wind and tide are viable methods of cutting back on consumption of fossil
fuels. On the other hand, fools such as yourself feel that vehicles can be
made far more efficient, depending on our own resources solves the emissions
problem, and biofuels have no place in the future planning of energy.

> THe reality is we are slow
> cooking ourslfs and even if we stop making CO2 today it will take 20
> or 30 years for it to start to decline but but limiting it today we
> can slow the rate of rise and lessen the peak impact it will have over
> time or we can do it your way and rape and burn the earth.

I agree there is a problem. However, the amount of alarmist reaction seems
to be similar to that when they discovered the ozone layer had a hole in it.
Now, we don't even talk about that "environmental catastrophe."

> Again classic head in the sand. You talk before you read the fine
> print . If all the oil on the north slope could be used as once there
> is about a 6 month supply of it for US needs, that is it period.

Really? 10-20 billion barrels is about 16 months supply, if that was our
sole source. ANWR has 22Billion recoverable at $24 a barrel, with 44 billion
barrels in the hole. Given that we're currently at $60 a barrel levels,
wanna bet they can ge all 44 billion barrels out? And thats just on land in
Alaska. We're not even talking about in the Arctic Sea, neighboring Canada,
or any other location in the world. Now, do I think we should depend on
these? NO. But the paranoia you seem to be wrapped up in is ridiculous.

> Our domestic source are long passed their peak capacity and are in
> decline because of our thirst for oil we have wasted a lot of it.

Wrong. See above.

> It is not that simple because everything you use will have impact for
> animal feed to fertilers to compost and much to grow food. If you
> change this balance there will be trouble down the road. The answer
> lies in serious conservation efforts starting today not trying to
> bandaid fix it.

Very true. But claiming that biofuels are not part of that solution is
"short sighted" and very wrong.

> Not at all. Current admin pushed for new oil and natural gass fired
> power plants, not coal because of oil lobby, The reality is that 10
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that either. The less the public knows about true energy costs and
> limitation the better with current admin

I live very near the heart of PA coal country, I know what the price of coal
is. Converting that coal to liquid fuels will chnge its price. Again, coal
is only part of the solution.

>>The NOx emissions are being dealt with on common diesel fuel, so it stands
>>to reason that biodiesel will benefit from the same solution.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> boost, the more NOx) and they will want fuels that produce lowest
> possible NOx when burned which is not Biodiesel

Again, biofuels are part of the solution, even if not a perfect solution.

>>You get a kickback from Al Gore or something?
>
> No, I like to read and learn.

Too bad you don't do more of it then.

Signature

Max

Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Floyd L. Davidson - 05 Feb 2007 01:31 GMT
>> Again classic head in the sand. You talk before you read the fine
>> print . If all the oil on the north slope could be used as once there
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>or any other location in the world. Now, do I think we should depend on
>these? NO. But the paranoia you seem to be wrapped up in is ridiculous.

Your entire article is filled with false statements.  This is
one specific example.  ANWR has *nothing* like the oil you
claim!  First, there are *zero* proven reserves in ANWR.
*Zero*.  What we have is an educated guess produced by the USGS.

 http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm

They *estimate* that there might be a grand total of 7.668
billion barrels of _technically_ recoverable oil in ANWR.  They
say that at $24 a barrel less than 6 billion barrels would be
recoverable, with the estimate approaching 7 billion as the
price goes above $40 a barrel.

Note that vast difference between the USGS figure and the myths you
posted.

>> Our domestic source are long passed their peak capacity and are in
>> decline because of our thirst for oil we have wasted a lot of it.
>
>Wrong. See above.

See above for why nothing you say, on this or any other topic,
can be believed.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

Max Dodge - 05 Feb 2007 14:10 GMT
> Your entire article is filled with false statements.  This is
> one specific example.  ANWR has *nothing* like the oil you
> claim!  First, there are *zero* proven reserves in ANWR.
> *Zero*.  What we have is an educated guess produced by the USGS.

Well Floyd, what you've got is about 9 years old. I read in several newer
sources online that the "estimate" was up beyond 22 billion barrels. Clearly
there is some debate, since what you've provided isn't proof (by your own
admission), but an ESTIMATE.

Next, if you read what I said, rather than picking at exacting figures,
you'd have figured out that I'm a proponant of biofuels. Clearly my point is
that the mass hysteria that Snohead, an now you, isn't worth the time of
day. Those of us who realize the problems are working on a solution, rather
than running about like Henny Penny and exclaiming about the condition of
the sky!

You'll need to bring PROOF if you decide to post again.

Signature

Max

Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>> Again classic head in the sand. You talk before you read the fine
>>> print . If all the oil on the north slope could be used as once there
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> See above for why nothing you say, on this or any other topic,
> can be believed.
Floyd L. Davidson - 05 Feb 2007 15:55 GMT
>> Your entire article is filled with false statements.  This is
>> one specific example.  ANWR has *nothing* like the oil you
>> claim!  First, there are *zero* proven reserves in ANWR.
>> *Zero*.  What we have is an educated guess produced by the USGS.
>
>Well Floyd, what you've got is about 9 years old. I read in several newer

And what I've got is the *only* such estimate.  There are no others.

You are making up statistics.

>sources online that the "estimate" was up beyond 22 billion barrels. Clearly
>there is some debate, since what you've provided isn't proof (by your own
>admission), but an ESTIMATE.

*All* other debate is based on the USGS report that I've cited.
The whole point of my comment was indeed that it is an estimate.
There are *no* proven reserves.

(I will grant you that there are *dozens* of folks out there
posting invalid references to the study that I cited.  They read
it wrong and give numbers that are stated to be not what the
report says they are.)

Your 22 billion barrels is estimated for what is called
"in-place oil", which is an almost useless figure because it is
oil that cannot be extracted at any cost.  Typically the next
level of error is to cite "technically recoverable oil", which
includes oil that would cost $2000 a barrel to produce.

The next most common error is to cite the figures for all of
northeastern Alaska, which are also provided in the same report.

The bottom line is that the report says there might be about 7
billion barrels of economically recoverable oil if the price
remains as high as it is.  That figure is the only one of any
value at all, and as you admit is almost worthless because it is
just an estimate.

>Next, if you read what I said, rather than picking at exacting figures,
>you'd have figured out that I'm a proponant of biofuels. Clearly my point is
>that the mass hysteria that Snohead, an now you, isn't worth the time of
>day. Those of us who realize the problems are working on a solution, rather
>than running about like Henny Penny and exclaiming about the condition of
>the sky!

You are citing fabricated data.  I am hardly given to
hysteria...  I have the facts and a very good perspective
on what they mean.   You may have noticed that all of this
applies to *my* backyard, not yours.

>You'll need to bring PROOF if you decide to post again.

>>  http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm

There you are, just exactly what I gave you to start with.

Now it's your turn sonny.  Cite some kind of proof.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

Max Dodge - 06 Feb 2007 03:17 GMT
>>Well Floyd, what you've got is about 9 years old. I read in several newer
>
> And what I've got is the *only* such estimate.  There are no others.
>
> You are making up statistics.

I'm sorry Floyd, but thats incorrect.

http://www.doi.gov/news/030312.htm      cites 10 billion +

http://www.anwr.org/backgrnd/potent.html claims 4.8 billion to 29.4 billion,
depending on source of information they cite.

http://www.anwr.org/features/pdfs/ANWR_estimates.pdf  puts the mean
recoverable at 18 billion, depending on technology.

Again, its not the amount that is important, but the fact that its there,
and is of sufficient magnitude as to be economically feasable to recover.

> *All* other debate is based on the USGS report that I've cited.
> The whole point of my comment was indeed that it is an estimate.
> There are *no* proven reserves.

I never said there was.

>>Next, if you read what I said, rather than picking at exacting figures,
>>you'd have figured out that I'm a proponant of biofuels. Clearly my point
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> on what they mean.   You may have noticed that all of this
> applies to *my* backyard, not yours.

The data I have cited ALL tracks back to your USGS report. If my data is
fabricated, yours is worthless. I don't particularly care whose backyard its
in, since YOU don't live immediately on site either. Furthermore, even if
you did live on site, your data is based on something other than looking
over the metaforical white picket fence you've set up.

> There you are, just exactly what I gave you to start with.
>
> Now it's your turn sonny.  Cite some kind of proof.

Done Floyd. Now, would you care to argue my actual point, or will you
continue to claim my estimate is worth less than yours, although both are
based on the same data?
Signature

Max

Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Floyd L. Davidson - 06 Feb 2007 08:35 GMT
>>>Well Floyd, what you've got is about 9 years old. I read in several newer
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I'm sorry Floyd, but thats incorrect.

Sorry, but you are clueless.  What I said is *precisely* correct.

>http://www.doi.gov/news/030312.htm      cites 10 billion +

Did you read what I said?  Did you read what you are quoting?

  "The USGS estimates that it contains a mean expected value of
  10.4 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil."

So you cite an example of *exactly* what I told you.  Of course
it isn't surprising when you cite a Department of the Interior
webpage to find that they are using DOI resourse...  which is
the USGS.

And as I pointed out, technically recoverable oil includes oil
that would cost $2000/bbl to extract.  And the quote of 10.4
billion barrels is *not* for the 1002 Area of ANWR, but for the
entire north eastern section of Alaska that the 1998 USGS study
covered.

Since it is going to fly right over your head, let me point out
that Gail Norton was caught *lying* to Congress about ANWR, and
made every attempt at dishonest distortions.  The article you
cite is a Gail Norton distortion.  You fell for it, hook line
and sinker.  Congress didn't!

Here is the data from the Department of the Interior's USGS report:

                               ||     Volume of oil, in
   Part Of Study Area          ||     millions of barrels
                               ||  F95      Mean     F05
 ------------------------------||---------------------------
   Entire Assessment Area[1]   || 5,724    10,360  15,955
   1002 Area of ANWR           || 4,254     7,668  11,799
     Deformed area             || 3,403     6,420  10,224
     Undeformed area           ||     0     1,248   3,185

   [1]  Includes 1002 Area shown on Figure 2, Native
        landsr, and adjacent State water areas within
        3-mile boundary (see Fig. 2).

   Table 1:  Estimates of volumes of technically recoverable oil in various
             parts of ANWR assessemnt study area.

So, what your cite does is simply verify *precisely* what I had
told you.  People who are dishonest try to distort the facts from
the USGS report.

>http://www.anwr.org/backgrnd/potent.html claims 4.8 billion to 29.4 billion,
>depending on source of information they cite.
>http://www.anwr.org/features/pdfs/ANWR_estimates.pdf  puts the mean
>recoverable at 18 billion, depending on technology.

Whatever source Arctic Power cites, 1) they *all* trace back to exactly
one source, the USGS report that I provided for you, and 2) is almost
certainly going to be a distortion given that Arctic power (the owner of
anwr.org) is a political propaganda machine paid for by the Republican
Legislature in Alaska and intended to lobby for opening ANWR.  They are,
to put it mildly, the absolute least reliable source of information
available about ANWR.

The second cite you give above is on of the most grossly
ridiculous papers on ANWR that exists.  It basically says the
USGS estimates are off by a factor of more than 2.  It bases
that on how oil extraction technology improved from 1968 to
1995, and says that will be repeated in the next decade,
specifically for ANWR.  See above, about how Arctic Power lacks
integrity!

As I pointed out to you previously, "in place" is a figure with
no merit at all, because it includes oil that can't be extracted
at any cost.

  "DOI estimates that "in-place resources" range from 4.8
  billion to 29.4 billion barrels of oil"

There is the exact text from your cite.  The data is totally
worthless.

Note that the very next sentence, which you apparently ignored,
said,

  "Recoverable oil estimates ranges from 600 million barrels at
  the low end to 9.2 billion barrels at the high end."

That of course is the technically recoverable oil and is
according to the 1988 report (which the 1998 report totally
contradicted, saying where the above oil was expected to be,
there is probably only 1.2 billion barrels (see the above table,
under "undeformed area").

The paragraph following the one quoted above references the 1998
report that I've been explaining to you.  Hence your "newer"
information is actually the older information...

Again, you have demonstrated that the distortions and lies that
I said are available, are indeed exactly what you are relying
on!

>Again, its not the amount that is important, but the fact that its there,
>and is of sufficient magnitude as to be economically feasable to recover.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>I never said there was.

You say "the fact that its there".  In fact, we do *not* *know*
of even one drop of oil in ANWR.  We don't know there is any
oil, so how can we know it is of "sufficient magnitude to be
economically feasable to recover"?????

You are exceedingly confused.

>>>Next, if you read what I said, rather than picking at exacting figures,
>>>you'd have figured out that I'm a proponant of biofuels. Clearly my point
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>The data I have cited ALL tracks back to your USGS report.

So now you admit it.  Before you said I had old data and you had
newer information.  You don't.  All you have is a confused
misunderstanding of what the USGS report actually does say.

>> There you are, just exactly what I gave you to start with.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>continue to claim my estimate is worth less than yours, although both are
>based on the same data?

Nice job of showing that *exactly* what I said was precisely
true!

You made several false statements.  I've shown them to be false.
I made many statements and every single one of them has been
shown to be precisely correct.  You now admit that the only data
available is exactly the data that I had cited, that you do not
have any newer or better data.  I'd told you that people distort
the USGS report, and gave you details of exactly what they
distort... and you cite *exactly* the distortions that I
mentioned.

As I said, this is all about *my* backyard.  I've been a full
time resident of the North Slope for several years and as is not
uncommon here I am well aware of what the oil industry is doing.
It is a perspective that you do not come close to matching.

--
Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com
Max Dodge - 06 Feb 2007 14:35 GMT
> Nice job of showing that *exactly* what I said was precisely
> true!

If you had looked at my original source, you would have found that its among
those you now find credible.

> You made several false statements.  I've shown them to be false.
> I made many statements and every single one of them has been
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> distort... and you cite *exactly* the distortions that I
> mentioned.

Yes, people do distort the reports, including yourself. You also distort my
actual point, since you never understood it to begin with. You might want to
return to my original reply to Snohead.

There is no dispute that there IS oil in the ANWR, despite your alarmist
reaction, and by your own sources. In fact, at the rate of recovery supposed
to be available via the cost per barrel, there IS more recoverable that is
suggested in the reports due to the increased price of oil. Thus, the figure
which you are citing could be much more at this time that it was at the time
of the report. So again, the amount of oil is debateable. Many factors which
you refuse to acknowledge are causing this variation.

But again, the point is not the quantity, but the fact that it IS there.

> As I said, this is all about *my* backyard.  I've been a full
> time resident of the North Slope for several years and as is not
> uncommon here I am well aware of what the oil industry is doing.
> It is a perspective that you do not come close to matching.

Bullshit. You may be able to actually see the equipment, but the reports you
read are the same ones I can read.

Now, I repeat, would you like to debate the points I've made, or your
proximity to large oil drilling equipment?
Signature

Max

Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>>>Well Floyd, what you've got is about 9 years old. I read in several
>>>>newer
[quoted text clipped - 172 lines]
> Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com
Floyd L. Davidson - 08 Feb 2007 07:57 GMT
>> Nice job of showing that *exactly* what I said was precisely
>> true!
>
>If you had looked at my original source, you would have found that its among
>those you now find credible.

I told you that all of the figures are from the USGS.  You
denied it, and claimed you have "newer" data.  You don't.  *ALL*
of your sources are simply grabbing numbers from the USGS and
distorting them.  What you claimed was *wrong*.  What your
sources claimed was *wrong*.

And no I did *not* say your source was credible.  I said they
lied, and so do you.

>> You made several false statements.  I've shown them to be false.
>> I made many statements and every single one of them has been
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Yes, people do distort the reports, including yourself.

If I were distorting the report you would of course be able to
show exactly what and where the distortion was.  You don't even
try to do that... because you *know* it won't fly.  So instead
you lie about it.

>You also distort my
>actual point, since you never understood it to begin with. You might want to
>return to my original reply to Snohead.

None of your points in any discussion with me have been valid.
None have been supported by facts, and all have been traced to
one unreliable source or another trying to distort what the USGS
says.

>There is no dispute that there IS oil in the ANWR, despite your alarmist

There are *ZERO* proven reserves in ANWR.  That means there *is*
a dispute about whether there is any oil there at all.  Nobody
knows of a single drop of oil in ANWR.

We do *not* *know* there is oil in ANWR.

>reaction, and by your own sources. In fact, at the rate of recovery supposed
>to be available via the cost per barrel, there IS more recoverable that is
>suggested in the reports due to the increased price of oil.

How do you figure that?  The rate of recovery has *nothing* to
do with how much oil is recoverable.  And "via the cost per
barrel" is a nonsense phrase.  You are making up mumbo jumbo
statements, hoping that in the confusion you sound good.

>Thus, the figure
>which you are citing could be much more at this time that it was at the time
>of the report.

How can you justify that statement?  The report was issued in
1999.  There has been no research in ANWR since 1985.  It
includes all of the known and currently used technology that has
been developed for Arctic oil production over the past 30 years.

You cannot cite a single specific that would point at an increased
in the figures provided by the USGS.

>So again, the amount of oil is debateable. Many factors which
>you refuse to acknowledge are causing this variation.

The amount is open to question, within the range specified by
the USGS.  Name even *one* of these "many factors"!  You can't,
because there are none.

>But again, the point is not the quantity, but the fact that it IS there.

What is there?  There are *ZERO* proven reserves in ANWR.

You know, don't you (!) that the NPR-A is supposed to have just about
the same amount of oil as ANWR?  The USGS reports for the NPR-A say
just about the same thing they do for ANWR.  Same amounts, same type of
expected discoveries (nothing big like Prudhoe or Kuparuk).

Are you aware that there has been exploratory drilling in the
NPR-A since the 1940s?  And there has yet to be a single
reservoir found that is large enough to produce.

We could be poking holes in ANWR for the next 60-70 years
without finding anything there either.

(Just in case you don't have a clue what the National Petroleum
Reserve -- Alaska is, it is the area west of Prudhoe Bay, and is
of course similar in many ways to ANWR, the area east of Prudhoe
Bay.)

>> As I said, this is all about *my* backyard.  I've been a full
>> time resident of the North Slope for several years and as is not
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Bullshit. You may be able to actually see the equipment, but the reports you
>read are the same ones I can read.

You can't read.  You don't seem to be able to relate this stuff to
reality.  You clearly do not have the same perspective on it that
just about *everyone* here gets.

>Now, I repeat, would you like to debate the points I've made, or your
>proximity to large oil drilling equipment?

When are you going to make a point?  You have made up all sorts of
distortions, *none* of which you can support with accurate data.

Telling lies that cannot be supported is *not* making points...

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

Max Dodge - 08 Feb 2007 14:42 GMT
> I told you that all of the figures are from the USGS.  You
> denied it, and claimed you have "newer" data.  You don't.  *ALL*
> of your sources are simply grabbing numbers from the USGS and
> distorting them.  What you claimed was *wrong*.  What your
> sources claimed was *wrong*.

There was no denial of your source. My info is from more recent sources. You
have no more proof of my sources than I do. Simply put, all sources are
"estimates", so when citing them, you must use the full range. Again, that
wasn't my point to begin with.

However, in your rabid bullshit session, you've more than eloquently proven
my point. If you care to do so, you would find that my post was advocating
the use of biofuels. This was a direct rebuttal to Snohead, since he seems
to feel fossil fuels are in extremely short supply, but biofuels are not the
answer. If I had a reason to guess, I'd say you two know each other, and
that accounts for your hitherto unseen presence on this newsgroup.

> And no I did *not* say your source was credible.  I said they
> lied, and so do you.

My sources base their findings on your source. Therefore your source,
following your logic, must be lying as well.

> If I were distorting the report you would of course be able to
> show exactly what and where the distortion was.  You don't even
> try to do that... because you *know* it won't fly.  So instead
> you lie about it.

The distortion is in the fact that the area has been mapped by oil companies
as well as the USGS. Since the oil companies feel there is a reason to go
into the ANWR, they must feel their data is fairly sound and well
researched. As such, their findings must be taken with as much weight as the
USGS. Thus all sources distort for their own use. However, in the case of a
business entity looking to make a profit, it stands to reason that they will
not distort it so far as to risk losing money.

> None of your points in any discussion with me have been valid.
> None have been supported by facts, and all have been traced to
> one unreliable source or another trying to distort what the USGS
> says.

None of my points with you were about the original topic. Indeed, the more
you claim I'm over estimating the amount of fossil fuels, the more you make
my point that biofuels are a necessary part of the energy plan for this
country. So keep yammering away Floyd, you'll drive home my point far more
forcefully than I ever could.

Your lack of fossil fuel position SUPPORTS my contention that biofuels are
necessary.

Let me repeat that....

Your lack of fossil fuel position SUPPORTS my contention that biofuels are
necessary.

And for you hard of thinking people...

Your lack of fossil fuel position SUPPORTS my contention that biofuels are
necessary.

> There are *ZERO* proven reserves in ANWR.  That means there *is*
> a dispute about whether there is any oil there at all.  Nobody
> knows of a single drop of oil in ANWR.
>
> We do *not* *know* there is oil in ANWR.

If the oil companies want to go there, then there is oil. Its simple
economic logic.

Again, for you to ponder....

Your lack of fossil fuel position SUPPORTS my contention that biofuels are
necessary.

Lack of fossil fuel means we must encourage biofuel production. I said this
in my original post, and I said it again when Snohead denied that biofuels
were viable.

As such, we're done here, because you obviously have no clue you've played
right into my hands.
Signature

Max

Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Floyd L. Davidson - 08 Feb 2007 15:31 GMT
>> I told you that all of the figures are from the USGS.  You
>> denied it, and claimed you have "newer" data.  You don't.  *ALL*
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>There was no denial of your source. My info is from more recent sources. You

You aren't catching on yet, are you!  Your info is *not* more
recent.  It is *all* from the same source.  The difference is
that I'm quoting exactly what the USGS actually did say, with
*accurate* prespective.

You keep quoting source who cite the same USGS report and
distort what it says.

>have no more proof of my sources than I do. Simply put, all sources are
>"estimates", so when citing them, you must use the full range. Again, that
>wasn't my point to begin with.

So you think an estimate by the USGS for in place oil in ANWR is
appropriate to use for calculating how much oil per day might be
pumped during peak production???  Do you really need to be told
*again* just how stupid that is?

The USGS gave figures for ecomonically recoverable oil. Those
are the numbers that count.  They gave the figures explicitely
for the 1002 Area of ANWR.  Yet you quote sources using
technically recoverable oil figures (which are meaningless
anyway) for the entire northeastern corner of Alaska and claim
they are for ANWR.  Do you really need to be told *again* just
how stupid that is?

>However, in your rabid bullshit session, you've more than eloquently proven
>my point.

That you can't figure out what your sources are, what is an
accurate perspective on the data, or even which data applies to
where?  Yes, that has eloquently been proven.  Did you even have
a point?

>> And no I did *not* say your source was credible.  I said they
>> lied, and so do you.
>
>My sources base their findings on your source. Therefore your source,
>following your logic, must be lying as well.

And then they *lie* about it.  So do you.  Just like that
statement.  You can't get it through your head that the USGS is
not lying, but people who "base their findings" on the USGS
report by distorting what they said *are lying*.

>> If I were distorting the report you would of course be able to
>> show exactly what and where the distortion was.  You don't even
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>The distortion is in the fact that the area has been mapped by oil companies
>as well as the USGS.

That is false.  Show us data.

>Since the oil companies feel there is a reason to go
>into the ANWR, they must feel their data is fairly sound and well
>researched.

Heh heh...  I think you will find that the oil companies aren't
doing much of *anything* towards opening ANWR.  They are
drilling *no* wells anywhere near ANWR.  They have virtually all
pulled out of funding Arctic Power (anwr.org).

Recently the State of Alaska even tried to sell offshore leases
in the waters just north of ANWR... and *no* oil companies bid
on any of the offerings.

>As such, their findings must be taken with as much weight as the
>USGS.

So show us "their findings"!

>> We do *not* *know* there is oil in ANWR.
>
>If the oil companies want to go there, then there is oil. Its simple
>economic logic.

The oil companies have been drilling in the NPR-A since the
1940's, and have yet to bring a single field to production.

You don't seem to have much understanding of the oil industry.

>As such, we're done here, because you obviously have no clue you've played
>right into my hands.

As if you could tell...

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

Craig C. - 08 Feb 2007 16:01 GMT
> You don't seem to have much understanding of the oil industry.

So ... do you use biodiesel?

:-)
Craig C.
Max Dodge - 08 Feb 2007 22:51 GMT
>>As such, we're done here, because you obviously have no clue you've played
>>right into my hands.
>
> As if you could tell...

I can, but I doubt you can. I've made an argument that biofuels must be part
of the furture of our energy plan regardless of their emissions levels. This
is because of lower production levels of fossil fuels, and the accompanying
higher prices.

By claiming that even the most conservative estimates of fossil fuel
reserves are in doubt, you've reinforced my argument that alternative fuels,
such as bio fuels, are necessary despite the accompanying problems they
bring.

Thank you for making my point even stronger.

Good day to you.

Signature

Max

Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

>>> I told you that all of the figures are from the USGS.  You
>>> denied it, and claimed you have "newer" data.  You don't.  *ALL*
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> As if you could tell...
DonStaples - 04 Feb 2007 18:28 GMT
>>> Aw the clueless Max armed with a little bit of knowledge and ready to
>>> lead the fuel world. Sure some stuff is unfit for humans and made into
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> can slow the rate of rise and lessen the peak impact it will have over
> time or we can do it your way and rape and burn the earth.

He may be clueless but atleast he can spell. Yes, California IS full of
sh.t, anybody in their right mind knows that. California also bans guns that
there's nothing wrong with. Yeah, you're right, you can't make horsepower
with anything other than gasoline, just ask drag racers. What the hell do
you know about reality?

>> They have
>>> gotten away with it in the past but not much longer. If you want to
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
> that either. The less the public knows about true energy costs and
> limitation the better with current admin

Can you say spellcheck?

>>> They can burn the midnight oil on biodiesel but it has to do with its
>>> chemical bonds thant causes NOx problems. In the past it was not a
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
Chris Thompson - 05 Feb 2007 04:09 GMT
From: "DonStaples"
Newsgroups: alt.autos.dodge.trucks
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Most People Will Never Know About Biodiesel

>Yeah, you're right, you can't make horsepower with anything other than
>gasoline, just ask drag racers. What the hell do you know about reality?

LOL

well you know, I just can't wait for his answer to that one.

Signature

----------------------------
-Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Real Trucks don't NEED spark plugs.

TBone - 05 Feb 2007 14:15 GMT
> From: "DonStaples"
> Newsgroups: alt.autos.dodge.trucks
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> well you know, I just can't wait for his answer to that one.

Why would you have to wait for an answer he already has given and was
correct on.  He didn't claim that alcohol could not be used, only that it is
ineffective in an engine that also burns gas.  His claim was that in order
to effectively run on alcohol due to the considerably lower energy content,
the compression ration would have to be significantly increased (just like
on drag cars).  The problem is that increasing it to the required level
would make it impossible to run on pump gas.

Signature

If at first you don't succeed,  you're not cut out for skydiving

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.