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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / April 2007Nitrogen Gas
I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, as the molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. Has anyone used this vice air/O2? > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an > episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about > Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, as the > molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. > > Has anyone used this vice air/O2? Costco uses nitrogen as does many tire shops here. I believe pure nitrogen does not expand and contract as much as air resulting in more stable tire pressure with temperature changes. Many people fail to check their tires as seasons change resulting in poor tire wear. >> I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across >> an episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > stable tire pressure with temperature changes. Many people fail to check > their tires as seasons change resulting in poor tire wear. Costco does huh? I will have to look into it. > Costco does huh? I will have to look into it. At least here in Phoenix. They put a green stem cap on when they use nitrogen. >Costco uses nitrogen as does many tire shops here. I believe pure >nitrogen does not expand and contract as much as air resulting in more >stable tire pressure with temperature changes. Many people fail to >check their tires as seasons change resulting in poor tire wear. The "funny" part of this is that "air" is about 78% nitrogen. Nitrogen is a bit more stable than air with tempature increase but the biggest plus of nitrogen is that it cannot hold humidity. ALso on the leak theory, only the oxygen molecules would leak out if you went with that and that would still leave 80% of the "air" volume. When I was around F4 many years ago they used to use nitrogen in their main tires foe to reasons, one was it was a little more stable and the other is that it did not support combustion because when they got hot brake on F4 they would tow they over pucture strips to "blow" the tire before heat did and the was no burst of oxygen when it burst to fan a fire if one starts. In a car it is like more than a novelty ----------------- TheSnoMan.com > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an > episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about > Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, as the > molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. > > Has anyone used this vice air/O2? ========== ========== It's been around for several years now..AZ. Haven't used it myself, have worked on vehicles with it in the tires. My personal thunk's on the matter..?? A fine idea. Does what it says. but...... If folks would ck their tire pressures regularly..... this would be one LESS gimmick to charge them for. mmmmm.....kinda akin to tranny flush'n in my book. ~~ 00 L O m/o ~:~ marsh ~sips his crownroyal......hooks up the flusher~ ~:~ On Apr 22, 5:12?pm, "azwiley1" <azwil...@cox.net> wrote: > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across > an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Has anyone used this vice air/O2? ========== ========== It's been around for several years now..AZ. Haven't used it myself, have worked on vehicles with it in the tires. My personal thunk's on the matter..?? A fine idea. Does what it says. but...... If folks would ck their tire pressures regularly..... this would be one LESS gimmick to charge them for. mmmmm.....kinda akin to tranny flush'n in my book. ~~ 00 L O I would think that in AZ with as hot as it gets that it would be of a benefit, even when one does check air pressure regularly. > I would think that in AZ with as hot as it gets that it would be of a > benefit, even when one does check air pressure regularly. Probably so. I have a tire PSI monitor system on my Caliber. I notice it will read 32PSI in the morning when cold and 40PSI after driving an hour on hot roads. However, it could be that the sensors themselves are subject to error caused by temperature shifts. Will have to get my old fashioned gage out to check. >> I would think that in AZ with as hot as it gets that it would be of a >> benefit, even when one does check air pressure regularly. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > caused by temperature shifts. Will have to get my old fashioned gage out > to check. If you remember Boyle's Law from physics class, the pressure increases as a function of temperature so the increase in tire pressure while driving is normal. A good rule of thumb is about 1 psi per 8-10 degrees F. Mike > If you remember Boyle's Law from physics class, the pressure increases as a > function of temperature so the increase in tire pressure while driving is > normal. A good rule of thumb is about 1 psi per 8-10 degrees F. True but the sensors could also have a thermal span error. They're cheap and probably not well compensated. >> If you remember Boyle's Law from physics class, the pressure increases as >> a function of temperature so the increase in tire pressure while driving >> is normal. A good rule of thumb is about 1 psi per 8-10 degrees F. > > True but the sensors could also have a thermal span error. They're cheap > and probably not well compensated. If they are OEM sensors, they do not have a significant error due to temp increase, they are quite accurate. Mike >>> If you remember Boyle's Law from physics class, the pressure increases >>> as a function of temperature so the increase in tire pressure while [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If they are OEM sensors, they do not have a significant error due to temp > increase, they are quite accurate. Well, the ones on the Charger aren't. I've set the pressure a few times with the same guage and can't get all 4 to read the same after moving the car. I've kept it out of the sun, driven it in a straight line, let it sit all day and tried it at night, Backed out of the garage and right back in and there is always one that is off a pound or two. It varies as to which one it will be. Roy > Mike > If they are OEM sensors, they do not have a significant error due to temp > increase, they are quite accurate. I assume tire PSI sensors are nothing more than miniature force transducers. They use strain gages to measure deflection from force or pressure. If temperature changes then the transducers flexure expands or contracts. The gages don't know the difference and show an error. I'd be interested in seeing just how well they are temperature compensated. If the error is repeatable between different sensors then the error curve could be programmed into the computer. > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an > episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about > Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, as the > molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. > > Has anyone used this vice air/O2? Ex - A&P mech here (Boeings and Lears) - Nitrogen is used to fill transport category aircraft tires (727, 757, etc), but I was told this is for several reasons - it dissipates heat better (imagine if the reversers are out, and 600,000 pounds is on the wheelbrakes), and in the event of a tire fire or wheel well fire, there's no extra oxygen to feed the fire when the thermal fuse plugs pop out. Also, there's no water condensation at altitude when the wheel cold soaks at 35k feet. Not sure what the advantages would be in an automotive application, and it seems like a pain in the a.s to have to hunt for a nitrogen tank when your tires are low. > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an > episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about > Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, as the > molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. > > Has anyone used this vice air/O2? I use a mixture that is 78% nitrogen. >> I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across >> an [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I use a mixture that is 78% nitrogen. You notice any advantage or disadvantage to it? >>> I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across >>> an [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > You notice any advantage or disadvantage to it? That's the same one I use! Advantages, first, it's cheap, second, very easy to find, third, it keeps the tires from being flat on the bottom. > >> I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across > >> an [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > You notice any advantage or disadvantage to it? Advantage; cheap. Disadvantage; being plain old air, it doesn't have that feel of exclusivity to it. Filling passenger car/truck tires with pure nitrogen is nothing more than a profit add on for those selling the service and a new market for the equipment companies pushing the machinery. In the case where a tire store may do it as a no charge, it merely becomes a sales tactic for why the customer should choose to buy their tires instead of going to the competition. Yeah, there is a bit of science to support using nitrogen in tires but not enough to make it worth the cost or hassle for us mere mortals. > Filling passenger car/truck tires with pure nitrogen is nothing > more than a profit add on for those selling the service and a new [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > tires but not enough to make it worth the cost or hassle for us > mere mortals. I disagree. The average person going into a tire center here would have gone anyways regardless of nitrogen or not. They're looking for the best prices on a given tire. My guess is there are other reasons that are money motivated. Such as law suits from tire blow outs even though the owner failed to maintain proper PSI. Or perhaps tire manufactures can claim higher mileage and fewer warranty claims as a result of PSI that is more stable. > > Filling passenger car/truck tires with pure nitrogen is nothing > > more than a profit add on for those selling the service and a new [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I disagree. The average person going into a tire center here would have > gone anyways regardless of nitrogen or not. The "average" person doesn't know what they want. Yes, they will eventually go to a tire vendor, but they tend to be a bit clueless when it comes to making an intelligent choice. > They're looking for the > best prices on a given tire. True enough, and when the price is the same between store X and store Y, they'll look for something to finalize the decision. Nixon lost to Kennedy because he 'looked' unshaven in a televised debate. > My guess is there are other reasons that are money motivated. Such as > law suits from tire blow outs even though the owner failed to maintain > proper PSI. Neither of which nitrogen will prevent or avoid. Nitrogen still diffuses thru the rubber, it just does it at a slower rate than compressed air. > Or perhaps tire manufactures can claim higher mileage and > fewer warranty claims as a result of PSI that is more stable. I know of no passenger car/light truck tire manufacturer that mandates using nitrogen to fill, in fact, a few have debunked the supposed benefits. >> > Filling passenger car/truck tires with pure nitrogen is nothing >> > more than a profit add on for those selling the service and a new [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > mandates using nitrogen to fill, in fact, a few have debunked the > supposed benefits. As I understand it, the nitrogen will not absorb moisture as air does. So if you aren't into autox, regular air should work for everybody. >> >> I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across >> >> an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Disadvantage; being plain old air, it doesn't have that feel of >exclusivity to it. You gave it away! Ya had wiley coyote going there for a momnet. beekeep > I use a mixture that is 78% nitrogen. How did you get that high?? First off you have to consider the humidity level as well as the green house gasses in your region. I can only get 77.995% here in AZ where its very dry. > > I use a mixture that is 78% nitrogen. > > How did you get that high?? First off you have to consider the humidity > level as well as the green house gasses in your region. I can only get > 77.995% here in AZ where its very dry. Damn, you caught me rounding up... From How Stuff Works: Many race car teams use nitrogen instead of air in their tires because nitrogen has a much more consistent rate of expansion and contraction compared to the usual air. Often, a half pound of pressure will radically affect traction and handling. With track and tire temperatures varying over the duration of a race, the consistency of nitrogen is needed. Nitrogen pressure is more consistent than normal air pressure, because air typically contains varying amounts of moisture due to changes in the relative humidity on race day. Water causes air to be inconsistent in its rate of expansion and contraction. So, a humid race in the southeast United States or a dry race in the desert western United States could make for unpredictable tire pressures if "dry" nitrogen were not used. Nitrogen is also used in the high-pressure tires on large and small aircraft. END QUOTE Bottom line, nitrogen is better. It also costs more, and one would have to carry a tank with them to keep the tires topped off. If one did not have a flat, or something to cause the use of large volumes of nitrogen, a small tank would suffice, probably in the 40 cubic foot range. A simple regulator and filler hose would work. Is it worth all that extra? Maybe if you're running NASCAR, but for regular freeway driving, an 80/20 mix of regular compressed air would seem good enough for me. (even though the 80/20 description is not totally accurate to the nth degree, much as the .357/.22 arguments recently demonstrated) <g> Steve > From How Stuff Works: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > affect traction and handling. With track and tire temperatures varying > over the duration of a race, the consistency of nitrogen is needed. Bingo! Also used in the air guns. I left MA with 32 psi in all 4 tires. Now they are showing 37 -38 psi he in FL > > From How Stuff Works: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I left MA with 32 psi in all 4 tires. Now they are showing 37 -38 psi he in > FL I know air guns use it, it all I use in my paintball marker. I know of the reason/advantages in the paint marker, I was thinking that is truck tires in AZ it might have some benifit. >> I use a mixture that is 78% nitrogen. > > How did you get that high?? First off you have to consider the humidity > level as well as the green house gasses in your region. I can only get > 77.995% here in AZ where its very dry. All you need is a little hot air from AlGore, and it brings it up to the proper level. Of course, then you have to listen to the lectures while you're driving to maintain proper pressure. Steve > All you need is a little hot air from AlGore, and it brings it up to the > proper level. Of course, then you have to listen to the lectures while > you're driving to maintain proper pressure. True. I can correct for the excess CO2 in the air mass by offsetting it with a few carbon footprint reduction expenditures elsewhere. I bought a dog that craps everywhere causing weeds to grow that absorb the CO2. >I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across >an episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking >about Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, >as the molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. > > Has anyone used this vice air/O2? Over rated as far as I am concerned for mom and pop's car tires. If you are racing or flying airplanes then it is a different story. The only benefit I can see for everyday use is the expansion issue, but then few people check their tires often enough to make a difference. Also, if nitrogen leaks out of tires at a lower rate than air, I figure if I have a small leak, what is left is nitro anyway! ;-) Greg >I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an >episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about >Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, as the >molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. > >Has anyone used this vice air/O2? All the cup cars use it. beekeep > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an > episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about > Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, as the > molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. I fill my tires with 78% Nitrogen, 20.95% Oxygen, 0.93% Argon and 0.04% CO2. Seems to work well. :-) Craig C. > > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an > > episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > :-) > Craig C. You guys are all so funny!! I am sure that Denny and Roy fill theirs with methane after eating all those nasty burgers! >> > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run >> > across an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You guys are all so funny!! I am sure that Denny and Roy fill theirs > with methane after eating all those nasty burgers! WTF!! It is the friggin' Rabbit that is trying to pay off all those football bet's he lost to me last year with White Castle burgers. I'm saying foul, I want a steak!! > >> > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run > >> > across an [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > - Show quoted text - How about some Hosenfeffer (sp) !! > > I fill my tires with 78% Nitrogen, 20.95% Oxygen, 0.93% Argon and > > 0.04% CO2. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You guys are all so funny!! I am sure that Denny and Roy fill theirs > with methane after eating all those nasty burgers! Personally, I suggest you try more Argon. At 0.93%, it's feeling a bit left out. And ... because it has 18 electrons (2 + 8 + 8), it will make your ride more stable. :-) Craig C. > I was flipping through the channels this morning and happen to run across an > episode of Trucks or one of them shows on Spike and they were talking about > Nitrogen Gas. Specifically they were talking about using it in tire, as the > molecules are bigger the O2 and a few other reasons that I forgot. > > Has anyone used this vice air/O2? This topic comes up regularly in aviation groups. You can read this discussion <http://tinyurl.com/2utaen> that begins with "Michelin recomends inflating tires with nitrogen." Some comments from Drew Dalgleish stand out: "At work I run a large front end loader. About a year ago the company switched from air filled to nitrogen filled at the recommendation of the tire supplier. Used to be at the end of an 8 hour shift the tires would be hot to touch or too hot to touch. Now they're just pleasantly warm." "Tire pressure is checked daily and hasn't been changed. Heavy equipment tires are expensive ( $5000-20000 for the ones we use ) and there's now up to a 6 month waiting period for new ones. They take tire care seriously where I work."  SignatureIn girum imus nocte et consumimur igni |
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