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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / May 2007

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Detroit's darkest hour

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Nomen Nescio - 02 May 2007 21:40 GMT
Fortune http://doiop.com/1a9c7k

GM, Ford and Chrysler sell more pickups than do they anything else,
more than two million a year in good times.

..the sales data reported May 1 that pickup trucks have hit the skids
is seriously bad news... Without these reliable profit generators, the
business model for domestic auto producers in North American doesn't
work. Passenger cars, under ferocious foreign assault, are a breakeven
proposition at best and sales of formerly lucrative SUVs are falling
faster than Spider-Man without his web.

For General Motors...the drop is a cruel blow to its plans to turn
around North American operations - and may force it to scale back its
assumptions about the business going forward. Despite incentives of up
to $2,000 per unit, Silverado sales fell 7.2 percent in April.

Ford is fighting to protect the F-series with a new advertising
campaign touting its durability in crash tests. But the collapse in the
showroom digs an even deeper hole for the automaker. F-series sales are
down 13.7 percent so far in 2007. At up-for-sale Chrysler, meanwhile,
Dodge Ram sales are holding steady but only thanks to incentives that
climb as high as $5,000 per vehicle...
Kickin' a.s and Takin' Names - 04 May 2007 11:15 GMT
On May 2, 4:40 pm, Nomen Nescio <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-
Header@[127.1]> wrote:
> Fortunehttp://doiop.com/1a9c7k
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Dodge Ram sales are holding steady but only thanks to incentives that
> climb as high as $5,000 per vehicle...

So -- when does this fall off in sales translate to salesmen actually
wanting to sell a truck??  Would seem to me that if your sales are in
the toilet, you'd do something to generate sales -- but I guess
Detroit hasn't figured that out yet.

I'm in the market for a plain jane truck.  Went to three Ford dealers
yesterday -- same tired old sh.t -- every truck on the lot is loaded
up with junk that I don't want.  If I want leather seats, hot and cold
running water, and power everything, I'll buy a luxury car.   I want
an F-150, small V8, auto, AM/FM/CD, pwr steering and brakes, 8-foot
bed -- impossible.  Of course, if I want a King Ranch diesel Crew Cab
with every possible option, goddam if there's not a dozen of them on
the lot.

Then there's the sales people -- they won't listen to you -- just
keep trying to push you into something that's more and more expensive
all the while giving out the "got to talk to the sales manager"
bullshit.

Of course, Chevy, GMC, Dodge, Toyota, and Nissan are no different.
C. E. White - 04 May 2007 13:28 GMT
> On May 2, 4:40 pm, Nomen Nescio <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-
> Header@[127.1]> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> with every possible option, goddam if there's not a dozen of them on
> the lot.

I don't know where you are, but last year when I was shopping for a
pick-up for my farm none of the Ford dealers had any trouble finding a
stripped work truck. I just looked at the inventory of the closest
Ford dealer and he has many in stock. If you really want a Ford, go to
www.fordvehicles.com and build an F-150 like you want and then search
the local inventory for a close match. I just input your request into
the website and one dealer had over 200 close matches. They had over
100 exact matches. Price before taxes and taxes, but after rebates was
less than $17K.

Ed
SnoMan - 04 May 2007 13:45 GMT
>I'm in the market for a plain jane truck.  Went to three Ford dealers
>yesterday -- same tired old sh.t -- every truck on the lot is loaded
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>with every possible option, goddam if there's not a dozen of them on
>the lot.

I know were you are coming from. When I bought a new truck in 2000
even then I had a hard time finding a plain jane truck and it is even
harder today. I breifly was looking at some 2006 models from GM that
were 10K off sticker to replace mine but nothing out there had what I
wanted. Most of all I hate that "push and pray" 4x4 drive select
button that has mostly become the defacto standard (for 07 it is now
"twist and pray") I suspect I will keep mine for several more years
unless they start building real plain jane work P/U's again. I buy
them to do work, not to impress anyone or as a daily driver to replace
a car and when it is not making money or doing a task that it is
truely needed for it is parked and I am driving around in a 4 cyl
using less than 1/2 the fuel too.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
aarcuda69062 - 04 May 2007 15:34 GMT
> Most of all I hate that "push and pray" 4x4 drive select
> button that has mostly become the defacto standard (for 07 it is now
> "twist and pray")

Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
that which you hate.

You -are- full of contradictions.
SnoMan - 05 May 2007 03:44 GMT
>Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
>that which you hate.
>
>You -are- full of contradictions.

No I am not, your are! I like MANUALLY controlled transfer cases not
servo controlled one or studiply designed 4x4 systems that have no
abilty to disconnect front axle differentail (like Dodge) to save a
few buck making them and cost consumer a few thousands bucks in extra
fuel costs over life of vehicle. If shifting a Tcase manually or maybe
even having to engage hubs (like I did for many years) is too much for
you then get a 2wd. Given todays fuel market there is no logic excuse
to not disconnect front differentail and drive shaft in 2wd. None! It
is strictly a profit thing and nothin more. Dodge could have had
lockout hubs easily added to the new AAM axle they started using in
2003 on HD pickups but it was cheaper to leave them off and use the
bastard hub/bearing design that they use instead and let consumer pay
for folly unknowingly. Make no mistake it is costing you MPG and more
than you think. I could always tell when my hubs or diff was not
disconnected in 2wd because it did not roll/coast as well but on a
Dodge it is "normal" to have it drag all the time so you do not know
any better other than wonder why your MPG sucks at times.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
aarcuda69062 - 05 May 2007 14:39 GMT
> >Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
> >that which you hate.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> No I am not, your are! I like MANUALLY controlled transfer cases not
> servo controlled

Every late model Dodge Ram 4X4 I've seen has a transfer case
shift lever.  No servo.

> one or studiply designed 4x4 systems that have no
> abilty to disconnect front axle differentail (like Dodge) to save a
> few buck making them and cost consumer a few thousands bucks in extra
> fuel costs over life of vehicle.

Axle disconnects are unreliable and can leave you stranded.
They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
good compromise, but they also can fail leaving you
stranded/stuck/wishing.

> If shifting a Tcase manually or maybe
> even having to engage hubs (like I did for many years) is too much for
> you then get a 2wd.

I've never owned anything but manually shifted transfer cases.

> Given todays fuel market there is no logic excuse
> to not disconnect front differentail and drive shaft in 2wd. None!

Your -opinion-.

> It is strictly a profit thing and nothin more.

Another one of your opinions.

> Dodge could have had
> lockout hubs easily added to the new AAM axle they started using in
> 2003 on HD pickups but it was cheaper to leave them off and use the
> bastard hub/bearing design that they use instead and let consumer pay
> for folly unknowingly.

Again, opinion.  And as for "unknowingly,"  you think it's some
deep dark secret?

> Make no mistake it is costing you MPG and more
> than you think.

It's not costing me anything.

> I could always tell when my hubs or diff was not
> disconnected in 2wd because it did not roll/coast as well but on a
> Dodge it is "normal" to have it drag all the time so you do not know
> any better other than wonder why your MPG sucks at times.

Funny, my friend just returned from a trip to Colorado in his 04
ram 2500 diesel, pulling a trailer with 4 passengers, he averaged
20 mpg not to mention 30 cents a gallon cheaper for diesel fuel
vs. gasoline.
Same trip when he had a 2000 Ram 2500 gas 5.9, he'd get at best
11 mpg and be wheezing up the mountains...  don't forget, the
2000 had front axle disconnect.

Post something factual, not your usual anti-Dodge/diesel snobbery
that is totally based on emotion instead of fact.

As for your "thousands extra in fuel costs,"  check what the
going rate is to repair late model Ford lock outs and get back to
me, okay?
My Name Is Nobody - 07 May 2007 19:29 GMT
>> >Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
>> >that which you hate.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> good compromise, but they also can fail leaving you
> stranded/stuck/wishing.

Having driven 5 4x4 trucks with manual lockout front hubs to over 200,000
miles each, many of those off road using the 4x4, I have never had a hub
failure.  What are you talking about?
aarcuda69062 - 08 May 2007 03:03 GMT
> >> >Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
> >> >that which you hate.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> miles each, many of those off road using the 4x4, I have never had a hub
> failure.  What are you talking about?

Failed lock out hubs.
My Name Is Nobody - 08 May 2007 19:10 GMT
>> >> >Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
>> >> >that which you hate.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Failed lock out hubs.

Well your statement "Real lock out hubs might be a good compromise, but they
also can fail leaving you stranded/stuck/wishing." is disingenuous at
best...
aarcuda69062 - 09 May 2007 05:27 GMT
> >> Having driven 5 4x4 trucks with manual lockout front hubs to over 200,000
> >> miles each, many of those off road using the 4x4, I have never had a hub
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> also can fail leaving you stranded/stuck/wishing." is disingenuous at
> best...

If you say so.
TBone - 07 May 2007 19:52 GMT
> > >Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
> > >that which you hate.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Every late model Dodge Ram 4X4 I've seen has a transfer case
> shift lever.  No servo.

Then I guess that you don't get out much.

> > one or studiply designed 4x4 systems that have no
> > abilty to disconnect front axle differentail (like Dodge) to save a
> > few buck making them and cost consumer a few thousands bucks in extra
> > fuel costs over life of vehicle.
>
> Axle disconnects are unreliable and can leave you stranded.

Really???  How???

> They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
> differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
> good compromise, but they also can fail leaving you
> stranded/stuck/wishing.

Again, how???

> > If shifting a Tcase manually or maybe
> > even having to engage hubs (like I did for many years) is too much for
> > you then get a 2wd.
>
> I've never owned anything but manually shifted transfer cases.

But that doesn't mean that they don't exist.  My buddies Ford has a switch
on the dash and IIRC, Tom L also has a switch for the 4WD on his DODGE.

> > Given todays fuel market there is no logic excuse
> > to not disconnect front differentail and drive shaft in 2wd. None!
>
> Your -opinion-.

I would say the opinion of many.

> > It is strictly a profit thing and nothin more.
>
> Another one of your opinions.

Then what is the real reason?

> > Dodge could have had
> > lockout hubs easily added to the new AAM axle they started using in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Again, opinion.  And as for "unknowingly,"  you think it's some
> deep dark secret?

It doesn't have to be a deap dark secret for people not to be aware of it.

> > Make no mistake it is costing you MPG and more
> > than you think.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> 11 mpg and be wheezing up the mountains...  don't forget, the
> 2000 had front axle disconnect.

Is this the best that you can do?  You are comparing apples to oranges here.
At least if the two trucks had the same engine you could actually be making
a point but here....

> Post something factual, not your usual anti-Dodge/diesel snobbery
> that is totally based on emotion instead of fact.

What does this particular post have to do with diesels?

> As for your "thousands extra in fuel costs,"  check what the
> going rate is to repair late model Ford lock outs and get back to
> me, okay?

What makes you think that they are going to fail?  How much is a replacement
rear axle bearing for a late model Dodge 2500?  How much will it cost to
repair / replace a transfer case and due to that cost, should we all be
driving 2WD's?

Signature

If at first you don't succeed,  you're not cut out for skydiving

aarcuda69062 - 08 May 2007 02:42 GMT
> > > >Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
> > > >that which you hate.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Then I guess that you don't get out much.

You're right.  I don't.

> > > one or studiply designed 4x4 systems that have no
> > > abilty to disconnect front axle differentail (like Dodge) to save a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Really???  How???

Ask the Chevy guys who've had the wax motor fail in cold temps.
Or the Dodge/Chevy guys who've had the vacuum switch on the
T-case fail.
Or the Chevy guys who've had a battery leak and the acid ate up
the disconnect pot.

> > They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
> > differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
> > good compromise, but they also can fail leaving you
> > stranded/stuck/wishing.
>
> Again, how???

I made two statements there, which one would you like clarified?

> > > If shifting a Tcase manually or maybe
> > > even having to engage hubs (like I did for many years) is too much for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> But that doesn't mean that they don't exist.  

Never said otherwise.

> My buddies Ford has a switch
> on the dash and IIRC, Tom L also has a switch for the 4WD on his DODGE.

I'm happy for both of them.

> > > Given todays fuel market there is no logic excuse
> > > to not disconnect front differentail and drive shaft in 2wd. None!
> >
> > Your -opinion-.
>
> I would say the opinion of many.

Could be, but they all haven't chimed in here...


> > > It is strictly a profit thing and nothin more.
> >
> > Another one of your opinions.
>
> Then what is the real reason?

If you wan the real reason, ask the engineer, not some washed up
has been lawn mower guy.

> > > Dodge could have had
> > > lockout hubs easily added to the new AAM axle they started using in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> It doesn't have to be a deap dark secret for people not to be aware of it.

If a purchaser is unaware of a particular aspect of the truck
they're buying, it's their fault for not doing their homework.


> > > Make no mistake it is costing you MPG and more
> > > than you think.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Is this the best that you can do?  You are comparing apples to oranges here.

As does Snoman, frequently, which also happens to be who I was
responding to.

> At least if the two trucks had the same engine you could actually be making
> a point but here....

Friend got the same mpg on his trip as I did with my 97 4X4 CTD
pulling my car to Carlisle.  Plenty of fault to find with that
comparison also.


> > Post something factual, not your usual anti-Dodge/diesel snobbery
> > that is totally based on emotion instead of fact.
>
> What does this particular post have to do with diesels?

Not a thing.  What do you suppose I meant by "anti-Dodge/diesel?"

> > As for your "thousands extra in fuel costs,"  check what the
> > going rate is to repair late model Ford lock outs and get back to
> > me, okay?
>
> What makes you think that they are going to fail?  

Because it's a known pattern failure.

> How much is a replacement
> rear axle bearing for a late model Dodge 2500?

There are no "axle bearings" in a late model Dodge 2500 rear axle
assembly.

> How much will it cost to
> repair / replace a transfer case

It costs what it costs.

> and due to that cost, should we all be
> driving 2WD's?

Not "all" just the ones who can't pony up to the pump.
But transfer case wear wasn't one of Snoman's objections, good
thing you were here to think of it for him.
My Name Is Nobody - 08 May 2007 19:18 GMT
>> > They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
>> > differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I made two statements there, which one would you like clarified?

This really silly one that is based in totally fantasy, "Real lock out hubs
might be a good compromise, but they also can fail leaving you
stranded/stuck/wishing."

>> > > Given todays fuel market there is no logic excuse
>> > > to not disconnect front differentail and drive shaft in 2wd. None!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Could be, but they all haven't chimed in here...

No but everyone who want so seriously talk about fuel mileage, knows enough
about reducing rolling resistance to avoid sticking their foot in their
mouth on this particular point...

> Because it's a known pattern failure.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There are no "axle bearings" in a late model Dodge 2500 rear axle
> assembly.

No axel bearings in an axel assembly?  Now that is a neat trick...
TBone - 08 May 2007 20:12 GMT
> >> > They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
> >> > differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> No axel bearings in an axel assembly?  Now that is a neat trick...

Actually, he is correct as it is called a wheel bearing in this case with
its full floating axles but he knew what I was talking about.

Signature

If at first you don't succeed,  you're not cut out for skydiving

aarcuda69062 - 09 May 2007 05:41 GMT
> > No axel bearings in an axel assembly?  Now that is a neat trick...
>
> Actually, he is correct as it is called a wheel bearing in this case with
> its full floating axles but he knew what I was talking about.

Of course I knew what you were talking about, that's why I
answered as I did.
So, was that purposely miss-worded or are you really that
unfamiliar with the proper names of the parts?
aarcuda69062 - 09 May 2007 05:35 GMT
> >> > They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
> >> > differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> might be a good compromise, but they also can fail leaving you
> stranded/stuck/wishing."

Well, they are a compromise and since I've serviced far more of
them than your 5 trucks, hardly a fantasy.
The AAM axles without lock outs or a disengagement mechanism are
also a compromise, buy I'm not about to discount them based
solely on Snojobs say so.

> >> > > Given todays fuel market there is no logic excuse
> >> > > to not disconnect front differentail and drive shaft in 2wd. None!
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> about reducing rolling resistance to avoid sticking their foot in their
> mouth on this particular point...

Anyone who is serious about fuel mileage doesn't buy a 3/4 ton
truck and expect to get it.


> > Because it's a known pattern failure.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> No axel bearings in an axel assembly?  Now that is a neat trick...

No trick.  A Dodge 2500 doesn't have axle bearings, it has wheel
bearings.
Me thinks you don't know as much about this stuff as you think
you do.
TBone - 09 May 2007 17:46 GMT
> > > > >Yet you have no problem slamming Dodge for totally eliminating
> > > > >that which you hate.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Or the Chevy guys who've had a battery leak and the acid ate up
> the disconnect pot.

And this gets then stuck....how???  It might stop the front axle from
engaging but that is not going to get them stuck, unless of course the rear
axle isn't working either.

> > > They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
> > > differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I made two statements there, which one would you like clarified?

Both.

> > > > If shifting a Tcase manually or maybe
> > > > even having to engage hubs (like I did for many years) is too much for
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Never said otherwise.

But that is what you have implied.

> > My buddies Ford has a switch
> > on the dash and IIRC, Tom L also has a switch for the 4WD on his DODGE.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Could be, but they all haven't chimed in here...

Why would they?

> > > > It is strictly a profit thing and nothin more.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If you wan the real reason, ask the engineer, not some washed up
> has been lawn mower guy.

Ah, I see.  It is not whether he is correct or not that matters, just your
dislike of the guy.  The point is that it is not the engineers designing
this crap, it is the accountants determining how to make a few extra pennies
of extra profit by cutting back on the engineers designs that makes these
decisions.

> > > > Dodge could have had
> > > > lockout hubs easily added to the new AAM axle they started using in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> If a purchaser is unaware of a particular aspect of the truck
> they're buying, it's their fault for not doing their homework.

Oh, back to the right wing buyer beware huh?  The problem with that way of
thinking is that it allows for a "fuckem if you can" mentality which then
results in your hated "big government".

> > > > Make no mistake it is costing you MPG and more
> > > > than you think.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> As does Snoman, frequently, which also happens to be who I was
> responding to.

So I guess that you are the same as you accuse him of being then.

> > At least if the two trucks had the same engine you could actually be making
> > a point but here....
>
> Friend got the same mpg on his trip as I did with my 97 4X4 CTD
> pulling my car to Carlisle.  Plenty of fault to find with that
> comparison also.

Not enough information here.

> > > Post something factual, not your usual anti-Dodge/diesel snobbery
> > > that is totally based on emotion instead of fact.
> >
> > What does this particular post have to do with diesels?
>
> Not a thing.  What do you suppose I meant by "anti-Dodge/diesel?"

While he may be anti-diesel, I just don't see the anti-dodge part of it.

> > > As for your "thousands extra in fuel costs,"  check what the
> > > going rate is to repair late model Ford lock outs and get back to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Because it's a known pattern failure.

Really???  What is the frequency of failure.

> > How much is a replacement
> > rear axle bearing for a late model Dodge 2500?
>
> There are no "axle bearings" in a late model Dodge 2500 rear axle
> assembly.

Ok, the rear hub assembly but I think that you knew that.  The point is that
parts fail sometimes and sometimes they are expensive and Ford does not have
an exclusive on that one.

> > How much will it cost to
> > repair / replace a transfer case
>
> It costs what it costs.

Then the same goes for the Fords front locking hubs and I'm unaware of a
high failure rate here.

Signature

If at first you don't succeed,  you're not cut out for skydiving

aarcuda69062 - 10 May 2007 14:38 GMT
> > > Really???  How???
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> engaging but that is not going to get them stuck, unless of course the rear
> axle isn't working either.

You're right, no one buys a 4X4 because it might afford them
better traction.  A functioning front drive axle has nothing to
do with stuck or unstuck.


> > > > They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
> > > > differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Both.

Since the axle disconnects in discussion here only disengage the
outer right axle stub from the inner right axle shaft, the left
axle stays engaged with the differential pinion gears, that means
that when the vehicle is moving and 4X4 is not engaged, the
differential pinion gears are still spinning inside the
differential case.

Lock out hubs, I wish I could give you a count of the number of
lock out hubs I've replaced during my years in GM and Ford
dealerships, but I just never kept a record. I can tell you that
in the nine years that I owned my F-150, I replaced the lock out
hubs three times because they would corrode from the winter road
salt so badly that they'd either leak or you couldn't
engage/disengage them anymore.  Wasn't unusual to spend an hour
drilling out the allen bolts that held them together to perform a
brake job/bearing pack only to find that they'd still not come
apart due to rot and had to be removed destructively.
Then there's the auto hubs that were used on the Bronco II
/Ranger/Explorer chassis that would fail and when they did, the
customer would be in fear of driving the vehicle in for service
and have it towed.
The auto locking hubs used on the GM K-5 and K-10 chassis were
just plain useless.

Anyone who actually depends on their 4 wheel drive working when
it's needed instead of buying it as a penis extension can
certainly appreciate the simplicity and reliability of not having
an added failure point as part of their front drive axle.


> > > > > If shifting a Tcase manually or maybe
> > > > > even having to engage hubs (like I did for many years) is too much
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> But that is what you have implied.

The only 'implications' in this thread are Snojerk's  assertions
that he has some sort of inside information as to why Dodge chose
to do something the way they did or the reasons a consumer might
choose one version over another.


> > > My buddies Ford has a switch
> > > on the dash and IIRC, Tom L also has a switch for the 4WD on his DODGE.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Why would they?

Ask them.  I wouldn't pretend to answer for the millions of other
4X4 owners out there.


> > If you want the real reason, ask the engineer, not some washed up
> > has been lawn mower guy.
>
> Ah, I see.  It is not whether he is correct or not that matters, just your
> dislike of the guy.  

I don't dislike the guy (or Snoman for that matter), never met
either of them.  But Snoman does give a disproportionate share of
flat out wrong information, and in this case, there is no chance
that he's anywhere near the position of knowing the real reasons
of why a particular design choice was made.

> The point is that it is not the engineers designing
> this crap, it is the accountants determining how to make a few extra pennies
> of extra profit by cutting back on the engineers designs that makes these
> decisions.

Cite?

> > > > Again, opinion.  And as for "unknowingly,"  you think it's some
> > > > deep dark secret?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Oh, back to the right wing buyer beware huh?  

Back to?
Should I reply with; back to the left wing buyers' poor choices
are the fault of everyone else except themselves?

> The problem with that way of
> thinking is that it allows for a "fuckem if you can" mentality which then
> results in your hated "big government".

Sorry, I fail to see the connection between "big government" and
why Dodge Ram trucks don't have front axle disconnects or lock
out hubs and frankly, if were a matter of "big government" to
begin with, then they would have them in the interest of
emissions and energy conservation.
(and just between you and me; that is starting to look a bit like
a lunatic rant)

> > > > Funny, my friend just returned from a trip to Colorado in his 04
> > > > ram 2500 diesel, pulling a trailer with 4 passengers, he averaged
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> So I guess that you are the same as you accuse him of being then.

Not necessarily.  Apples to Oranges isn't the same as talking out
of ones a.s.


> > > At least if the two trucks had the same engine you could actually be
> making
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Not enough information here.

What more information would you like?

> > Not a thing.  What do you suppose I meant by "anti-Dodge/diesel?"
>
> While he may be anti-diesel, I just don't see the anti-dodge part of it.

Maybe you're not as familiar with his posts as I am.


> > > > As for your "thousands extra in fuel costs,"  check what the
> > > > going rate is to repair late model Ford lock outs and get back to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Really???  What is the frequency of failure.

Impossible to know the total, but that doesn't discount the fact
that it's well known about in the repair industry.


> > > How much is a replacement
> > > rear axle bearing for a late model Dodge 2500?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ok, the rear hub assembly but I think that you knew that.  

There is no "rear hub assembly" either.

> The point is that
> parts fail sometimes and sometimes they are expensive and Ford does not have
> an exclusive on that one.

But if that part is eliminated, then the real possibility exists
that the deletion of that part wasn't strictly based on shaving
pennies off the cost of an axle assembly.


> > > How much will it cost to
> > > repair / replace a transfer case
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Then the same goes for the Fords front locking hubs and I'm unaware of a
> high failure rate here.

Just because you're unaware doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
My Name Is Nobody - 10 May 2007 23:33 GMT
>> > > Really???  How???
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> better traction.  A functioning front drive axle has nothing to
> do with stuck or unstuck.

Are you serious?  4x4 front drive axel/hub assembly failures are nearly
NONEXISTENT.  Do you have any data indicating they fail any more often than
rear axle assemblies???  What the heck are you talking about???

>> > > > They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
>> > > > differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> The auto locking hubs used on the GM K-5 and K-10 chassis were
> just plain useless.

You vast experience with ONE F-150?

Since when did trucklet parts (Bronco II/Ranger/Explorer GM K-5 and K-10)
enter in to this discussion.

How many 3/4 & 1-ton (real trucks) lock out hubs have you seen fail?  You
know damn well not too many.

> Anyone who actually depends on their 4 wheel drive working when
> it's needed instead of buying it as a penis extension can
> certainly appreciate the simplicity and reliability of not having
> an added failure point as part of their front drive axle.

You have a Penis fixation too?  The more you rave about a nonexistent
problem the sillier you look.

>> > > > > If shifting a Tcase manually or maybe
>> > > > > even having to engage hubs (like I did for many years) is too
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> to do something the way they did or the reasons a consumer might
> choose one version over another.

Well your position is questionable at best when you lump it together with
your asinine assertion that lock out hub don't function exactly as designed,
with nearly zero failures for well over 100,000 miles in 99% of all new 4x4
trucks.

>> > > My buddies Ford has a switch
>> > > on the dash and IIRC, Tom L also has a switch for the 4WD on his
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> either of them.  But Snoman does give a disproportionate share of
> flat out wrong information,

True

and in this case, there is no chance
> that he's anywhere near the position of knowing the real reasons
> of why a particular design choice was made.

Actually bean counters have been directing engineering choices in Detroit
for way too long, he is not far off...

>> The point is that it is not the engineers designing
>> this crap, it is the accountants determining how to make a few extra
[quoted text clipped - 111 lines]
>
> Just because you're unaware doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No but you are the one making the silly assertion.  Provide you proof.  You
have been called show your hand!

If this high failure rate is anything other than a figment of  your
imagination, you should be able to easily provide all sorts of links to
information about these extensive failures.  Otherwise, you are simply
spewing bullshit.
Joe - 11 May 2007 00:13 GMT
> information about these extensive failures.  Otherwise, you are simply
> spewing bullshit.

I can't believe you 2 guys are still posting in this silly thread.  Good
grief! Thanks for crossposting and have a nice day!  Just call each other on
the phone and get it all straightened out.
aarcuda69062 - 11 May 2007 07:41 GMT
> > You're right, no one buys a 4X4 because it might afford them
> > better traction.  A functioning front drive axle has nothing to
> > do with stuck or unstuck.
>
> Are you serious?  

Yes.

> 4x4 front drive axel/hub assembly failures are nearly
> NONEXISTENT.  

Based on your experience as an owner.
An owner who doesn't know the difference between an axle bearing
and a wheel bearing.
What state do you live in?

> Do you have any data indicating they fail any more often than
> rear axle assemblies???  

Why are you asking an auto mechanic for statistical data?
Could you possibly be any more absurd?
I am giving you the benefit of my observations, f.ck me that I
didn't know to keep detailed records starting back in 1979 when I
first worked in a dealership.
I'd really like to give you the statistics for 1983, it was a
harsh winter, but I was a little busy fixing vehicles, I didn't
have time to stand there with a clip board with my tie tucked
into my shirt.
Tell ya what, -YOU- invent the time machine and we'll both go
back together and you can watch over my shoulder. Sounds fair to
me.

> What the heck are you talking about???

Apparently, something that is bursting your bubble big time.


> >> > > > They also leave the differential gears spinning inside the
> >> > > > differential case causing wear.  Real lock out hubs might be a
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > differential pinion gears are still spinning inside the
> > differential case.

You've added no comments so I'll just assume that there is no
disagreement and you actually learned something.

> > Lock out hubs, I wish I could give you a count of the number of
> > lock out hubs I've replaced during my years in GM and Ford
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> You vast experience with ONE F-150?

Read again, pay more attention to where I say "the number of lock
out hubs I've replaced during my years in GM and Ford
dealerships,"

> Since when did trucklet parts (Bronco II/Ranger/Explorer GM K-5 and K-10)
> enter in to this discussion.

Since the size of the vehicle has nothing to do with the fact
that added components and complexity adds to the likelihood of
more frequent failure.

> How many 3/4 & 1-ton (real trucks) lock out hubs have you seen fail?  You
> know damn well not too many.

Why would you even bother to ask given that earlier in your
reply, you expressed dissatisfaction with my methods of recall.
You'll just have to use your imagination since I can't produce
the laboratory grade test results tabulated on a fleet of Cray
super computers amatorized according to congressional voting
districts and cross checked against blood type.


> > Anyone who actually depends on their 4 wheel drive working when
> > it's needed instead of buying it as a penis extension can
> > certainly appreciate the simplicity and reliability of not having
> > an added failure point as part of their front drive axle.
>
> You have a Penis fixation too?  

No, but you probably do since it seems to have upset you so.

> The more you rave about a nonexistent
> problem the sillier you look.

So, go buy a Super Duty with vacuum locking hubs and get back to
me in a few years and tell me all about "silly" when your truck
won't pass an emissions test because the seals in the vacuum hubs
are leaking and setting lean trouble codes. (but I'm thinking
this might be a bit over your head)

> > The only 'implications' in this thread are Snojerk's  assertions
> > that he has some sort of inside information as to why Dodge chose
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> with nearly zero failures for well over 100,000 miles in 99% of all new 4x4
> trucks.

Luckily, I'm not a whole lot concerned since it's quite apparent
that your experiences are (to say the least) limited.

> > I don't dislike the guy (or Snoman for that matter), never met
> > either of them.  But Snoman does give a disproportionate share of
> > flat out wrong information,
>
> True

Indeed.

>  and in this case, there is no chance
> > that he's anywhere near the position of knowing the real reasons
> > of why a particular design choice was made.
>
> Actually bean counters have been directing engineering choices in Detroit
> for way too long, he is not far off...

While that statement in and of itself is true, that doesn't
necessarily make it the case in this instance.
Snocone has a habit of picking out what -he- considers a flaw
based upon fourth hand information and then preaching it like
it's gospel.  He's a self proclaimed master mechanic who's
publicly admitted to farming out his leaking intake manifold
gaskets (2 times on the same truck), beating Dana rear axles
together with a hammer and numerous other atrocities too horrible
to repeat here. (IOWs, he's a sh.t kicker)
Even if what he is saying were true, based upon what we both
agree on, he deserves a double measure of the same 'no
credibility' ploy as you've attempted to use on me.

> > Just because you're unaware doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
>
> No but you are the one making the silly assertion.  Provide you proof.  You
> have been called show your hand!

Get a job as a mechanic, join i-ATN, then do a search.

> If this high failure rate is anything other than a figment of  your
> imagination, you should be able to easily provide all sorts of links to
> information about these extensive failures.  Otherwise, you are simply
> spewing bullshit.

You not being in the right position to be aware does not equal me
spewing bullshit.

Or; state your occupation, number of years of experience,
percentage of work hours doing driveline repairs/overhauls, brand
sponsored and/or aftermarket certifications and which training
centers you've attended and/or taught at.
Beryl - 11 May 2007 08:35 GMT
aardvarkbarracuda69062:
>>> You're right, no one buys a 4X4 because it might afford them
>>> better traction.  A functioning front drive axle has nothing to
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
> repairs/overhauls, brand sponsored and/or aftermarket certifications
> and which training centers you've attended and/or taught at.

Beat it, troll.

Signature

Make friends with a few animals. Then you will become a cheerful man
once more and nothing will be able to trouble you.  -- Albert Einstein

Roy - 11 May 2007 11:56 GMT
> Beat it, troll.

This is where you should take your own advice.
Beryl - 11 May 2007 20:39 GMT
>>Beat it, troll.
>
> This is where you should take your own advice.

Nah. aardvarkbarracuda is another feces-hurling punk from the Ford
balljoint thread that you once thought was important that I read, but
then refused to say why. What was your problem there?

Signature

Make friends with a few animals. Then you will become a cheerful man
once more and nothing will be able to trouble you.  -- Albert Einstein

Roy - 11 May 2007 21:54 GMT
>>>Beat it, troll.
>>
>> This is where you should take your own advice.

Like I said take you own advice.
Beryl - 11 May 2007 23:53 GMT
>>>> Beat it, troll.
>>>
>>> This is where you should take your own advice.
>
> Like I said take you own advice.

Like you snipped:

> Nah. aardvarkbarracuda is another feces-hurling punk from the Ford
> balljoint thread that you once thought was important that I read, but
> then refused to say why. What was your problem there?

Hmm? Skippy?
Hello?

Signature

Make friends with a few animals. Then you will become a cheerful man
once more and nothing will be able to trouble you.  -- Albert Einstein

Roy - 12 May 2007 00:21 GMT
>>>>> Beat it, troll.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Like you snipped:

Yup, get use to it.

You still don't get it do ya troll boy? Let me help you out a bit. Most of
the folks at this ng and others realize that the Idiot is well, a idiot.
They also seem to realize that your a a.s hole. As such, your pretty much
ignored,. you try but you fail. You might as well go back and bury your face
in the Idiot's lap. It will give you something to do and keep the Idiot
occupied . Sort of a win win for the pair of you and the reader's of this
ng. Swallow it all troll boy, don't make a mess..
aarcuda69062 - 12 May 2007 00:03 GMT
> >>Beat it, troll.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> balljoint thread that you once thought was important that I read, but
> then refused to say why. What was your problem there?

You're just another one of Snofraud's  sock puppets.
Beryl - 12 May 2007 08:08 GMT
aardvarkbarracuda69062:

>>>>Beat it, troll.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> You're just another one of Snofraud's  sock puppets.

He's unfazed, takes the flaming in stride. I don't know him, don't worry
about him, don't really care whether he's an idiot, or not. It's very
sporting-like to rile punks though, just seems like the right thing to
do. And they enjoy it, I've been told so.

So you're some kind of hermaphrodite/platypus character, huh?

Signature

Make friends with a few animals. Then you will become a cheerful man
once more and nothing will be able to trouble you.  -- Albert Einstein

aarcuda69062 - 12 May 2007 13:52 GMT
> > You're just another one of Snofraud's  sock puppets.
>
> He's unfazed,

That's funny.

> takes the flaming in stride.

Right.  When he gets called on his bullshit, he turns tail and
hides.

> I don't know him, don't worry
> about him, don't really care whether he's an idiot, or not.

Because you wouldn't know the difference anyway.

> It's very
> sporting-like to rile punks though, just seems like the right thing to
> do. And they enjoy it, I've been told so.

I'm relieved to know that you'll have something to do when school
lets out.

> So you're some kind of hermaphrodite/platypus character, huh?

According to you, I am a punk.  Make up your mind Sheryl, which
is it?
Beryl - 13 May 2007 06:35 GMT
aardvarkbarracuda69062:

> Right.  When he gets called on his bullshit, he turns tail and
> hides.

"Yup, get use to it." But wait, that isn't SnoMan, it's bashful Roy,
your balljoint feces-hurling co-star.

>>I don't know him, don't worry
>>about him, don't really care whether he's an idiot, or not.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> According to you, I am a punk.  Make up your mind Sheryl, which
> is it?

Punk is confirmed. You like bouncing lil' punkin in your lap as much as
Roy does?

Signature

Make friends with a few animals. Then you will become a cheerful man
once more and nothing will be able to trouble you.  -- Albert Einstein

Roy - 13 May 2007 11:42 GMT
> aardvarkbarracuda69062:
>
> Punk is confirmed. You like bouncing lil' punkin in your lap as much as
> Roy does?

C'mon troll boy, get with the program. The only thing bouncing in a lap, is
your face in the Idiot's lap. Don't make a mess, no drooling.
aarcuda69062 - 13 May 2007 19:01 GMT
> > According to you, I am a punk.  Make up your mind Sheryl, which
> > is it?
>
> Punk is confirmed. You like bouncing lil' punkin in your lap as much as
> Roy does?

Good choice Sheryl.

Had you chosen "aardvark" I'd be inclined to think that that is
all the farther you could make it in the dictionary.

Had you chosen "hermaphrodite" I'd be inclined to think that you
wanted to step it up a notch from autofellatio.
Beryl - 14 May 2007 00:55 GMT
aardvarkbarracuda69062 wrote:

>>>According to you, I am a punk.  Make up your mind Sheryl, which
>>>is it?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Had you chosen "aardvark" I'd be inclined to think that that is

You're already aardvark, aardvark.

> all the farther you could make it in the dictionary.
>
> Had you chosen "hermaphrodite" I'd be inclined to think that you
> wanted to step it up a notch from autofellatio.

Hermaphrodite isn't ruled out. I only said that punk is confirmed.

Signature

Make friends with a few animals. Then you will become a cheerful man
once more and nothing will be able to trouble you.  -- Albert Einstein

theguy@whatever.net - 11 May 2007 15:58 GMT
>aardvarkbarracuda69062:
>>>> You're right, no one buys a 4X4 because it might afford them
[quoted text clipped - 124 lines]
>
>Beat it, troll.

lmfao.  holy jumpin and down martha. barrow, you gotta be kidding. you
are the biggest troll around........well steve b may be a very close
ssecond, but you are still number one.  you should be happy though, at
least you made it to number one at something.
Joe - 04 May 2007 23:17 GMT
> On May 2, 4:40 pm, Nomen Nescio <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-
> Header@[127.1]> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> all the while giving out the "got to talk to the sales manager"
> bullshit.

Great points, all. Really great post. That's the only industry where it's
considered essential to torment your customers.  The dealers always believed
in business as usual at all costs. I don't understand it either.  They're
crazy.  I won't ever go to a dealership unless it's closed!  I'd probably
buy a new car every year if they weren't so awful.  As it is, I just have
too much self-respect, and I never buy any.
But remember the dealers aren't really under the control of Ford and GM.
Ford may be dying a grisly death, but it's not like they can tell their
dealers what to do.   The dealers will have to act out of enlightened
self-interest.  It's not Ford that's insane about that particular issue,
it's the dealers.

At my company we treat our customers like gold.  We're scared not to.
PerfectReign - 12 May 2007 06:06 GMT
> From: Nomen Nescio <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>
> Author-Supplied-Address: nobody <AT> dizum <DOT> com Newsgroups:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> GM, Ford and Chrysler sell more pickups than do they anything else, more
> than two million a year in good times.

<snip>

Anyone else wonder why this troll posted using a anonymous remailer?

Gee...

Signature

k

Roy - 12 May 2007 12:55 GMT
>> From: Nomen Nescio <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>
>> Author-Supplied-Address: nobody <AT> dizum <DOT> com Newsgroups:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Anyone else wonder why this troll posted using a anonymous remailer?

Nope, he has been doing this same bs for years.
 
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