Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / May 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Fuel Pressure, Rail Pressure Gauges

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Craig Christian - 30 May 2007 18:13 GMT
Need a second opinion:

I am having Pricol Optix gauges installed on my 2004 Ram, CTD in the
next few weeks.  I like the Optix gauges because they match the OEM dash.

http://www.danininc.com/opticdetail22.html

Mounting will be a 3 pod dash mount.  I want a tranny temp, pyro and I
thought a fuel pressure gauge.  However, the guy doing the install feels
that I would be better served with a rail pressure gauge since the pump
issue in my model Ram is no longer an issue at all.

Would like opinions ...

I thought about a boost gauge, but can't really think of what that gauge
gives me that I can't tell without it.

TIA.
Craig C.
Chris Thompson - 30 May 2007 18:31 GMT
> Need a second opinion:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> TIA.
> Craig C.

why not do both. install a srt apillar trim and mount your piro there,
thats where mine is, and then your tranny and fuel pressure gauges up on
the dash.. or you could do the steering column mount, this mount comes in
both dual and single gauge. i've got a dual on mine but still only the
boost gauge (i have yet to buy the fuel pressure gauge) i'll email ya a pic
of my setup if ya want.

i personally still want to monitor the lift pump (but i have yet to
install the capability lol)

Signature

____________________________________________
Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Craig Christian - 30 May 2007 18:44 GMT
> why not do both. install a srt apillar trim and mount your piro there,
> thats where mine is, and then your tranny and fuel pressure gauges up on
> the dash.. or you could do the steering column mount, this mount comes in
> both dual and single gauge. i've got a dual on mine but still only the
> boost gauge (i have yet to buy the fuel pressure gauge)

I considered the steering mount, but it blocks part of the dash.  I'm a
no-clutter kinda guy.

> i'll email ya a pic
> of my setup if ya want.

Yes, please.

> i personally still want to monitor the lift pump (but i have yet to
> install the capability lol)

Remember, I am not a mechanic, so what I'm about to say might be worded
incorrectly ... or worse yet, just downright wrong.  :-)

My understanding is that the issue on the older Rams was that they had
two pumps.  When the fuel pump in the tank failed it caused the lift
pump to work harder and eventually fail.  Which is why the fuel pressure
gauge was necessary (to detect the failure of the cheap pump in the tank
and get it fixed before the expensive lift pump failed). In my Ram,
there is now just a single, more powerful lift pump.  Therefore, the
fuel pressure gauge really serves no purpose.  However, the rail
pressure gauge can be useful in detecting a faulty FCA.

Does this sound correct?

If I ever decide to add a boost gauge, I'll probably put it on the
a-pillar with the SRT mount.

Thanks!
Craig C.
Tom Lawrence - 30 May 2007 19:06 GMT
> Does this sound correct?

Well....  no  :)

Back in ye olden days, when there were only two valves per cylinder, there
was a mechanical lift pump mounted on the back of the engine that sucked
fuel from the tank, and fed it up to the P7100 injection pump.  The P7100
was lubricated by engine oil, and if for some strange reason the mechanical
lift pump failed and stopped feeding fuel to the P7100, the extent of the
damage done was probably a sore toe from you kicking the truck because it
stopped running (not to mention all the fun of re-priming the fuel system
and getting it running again...  but still, no permanent damage done).

With the introduction of the 24V ISB engine, came electronics.  With that,
the mechanical lift pump was replaced with an electric pump, still mounted
on the left-rear of the engine, still sucking fuel from the fuel tank, but
now delivering it to a VP44 injection pump.  The VP44 no longer used engine
oil to lubricate itself as the P7100 did...  it relied on diesel fuel for
lubrication.  You can see where this is going....  when (not if, but when)
the electric lift pump failed, it starved the VP44 of fuel, which in very
short order would gawl itself all up, and you were then the proud owner of
TWO broken pumps....  one relatively cheap (the electric lift pump), and one
really expensive (the VP44).

The 3rd gen trucks, with their new ISBe (also called the HPCR, High-Pressure
Common Rail engine), use a different version of the same electric lift pump,
and a newer, higher-pressure, yet still fuel-lubricated CP3 pump.  The CP3
is cheaper to produce than the VP44, as there are no electronics (the VP44
contained electronics to control injection timing) - all the injection
timing is now done at the injectors themselves.  However, the CP3 is still
an expensive unit, and not something you want to fail (and believe me,
starve anything that spins around and around of lubrication, and that's
exactly what will happen).

Starting in model year '05, DC decided that pulling fuel 12 or so feet
through a tiny little tube probably wasn't the best use of a pump designed
to push, rather than pull - and re-re-re-designed the fuel system with an
in-tank "pusher" pump, that would now feed fuel directly to the CP3 (still
going through the stock fuel filter canister, however).  Guess what?
Sometimes, those pumps fail, too.  Of course, now you have the added fun of
dropping the tank, and removing the fuel module to replace the pump -
something that old 24V guys could do by feel on the side of the road on a
moonless night inside of 10 minutes.
Craig Christian - 30 May 2007 19:14 GMT
>> Does this sound correct?
>
> Well....  no  :)

Thanks for the lesson.  As usual, your explanation is easy to
understand, even for those of us that have the random retard gene
floating about.

:-)
Craig C.
Chris Thompson - 31 May 2007 13:18 GMT
Craig zip me an email so i can send you those pics.

kf4drr@windstream.net

Signature

____________________________________________
Chris
05 CTD
06 Liberty CRD

Tom Lawrence - 30 May 2007 18:37 GMT
> Mounting will be a 3 pod dash mount.  I want a tranny temp, pyro and I
> thought a fuel pressure gauge.  However, the guy doing the install feels
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I thought about a boost gauge, but can't really think of what that gauge
> gives me that I can't tell without it.

First, while it's true the 3rd gen trucks' lift pumps were more reliable
than previous years, and the CP3 pump is much more tolerant of lower fuel
pressures, DC felt that the lift pump was still enough of an issue that they
re-designed the low-pressure side of the fuel system, and re-located the
fuel pump inside the tank.

There have still been reports of lift pumps failing, even on the 3rd gen
trucks.  While this doesn't automatically trash the injection pump like it
used to in the VP44 days, it's still not a good thing for the CP3.  Yes, the
CP3 has it's own small gerotor lift pump built in, which in other
applications draws straight from a fuel source (no aux. lift pump), but
that's just it - it's not trying to suck fuel through a locked-up electric
lift pump in those applications.

IMO, a fuel pressure gauge is still useful.  I use mine all the time to
judge when it's time to change fuel filters (I notice the drop-off in
pressure, meaning the filter's getting more loaded up with gunk).

A rail pressure gauge is really just a "gee-whiz" kind of gauge, unless
you're planning on playing around with your fuel pressure to get more power
out of the engine.  That's a whole 'nother story, then - and in that case,
yes, a rail pressure gauge could be useful.  I, personally, am against
cranking up fuel pressure much beyond stock (the pictures I've seen of worn
injectors sold me on that one).  I currently have an Edge EZ box hooked up,
that I run on level 1 (mildest setting), just to give a little more fuel way
down low.

As for the boost gauge, again - not all that useful if you're running a
stock truck.  It can be helpful in diagnosing problems (for instance, a
blown, or even leaking,  intercooler boot is going to be easily noticable on
your boost gauge).

For reference, I currently run 7 gauges - pre-and-post-turbo EGT's
(pre-turbo being read by my TST box), boost, fuel pressure, tranny temp, oil
pressure, and water temp (needed to fill the last hole, and I never trust
the factory idiot lights in the shape of gauges).
Craig Christian - 30 May 2007 18:56 GMT
> First, while it's true the 3rd gen trucks' lift pumps were more reliable
> than previous years, and the CP3 pump is much more tolerant of lower fuel
> pressures, DC felt that the lift pump was still enough of an issue that they
> re-designed the low-pressure side of the fuel system, and re-located the
> fuel pump inside the tank.

This is the justification from the mechanic I have been dealing with
after asking him why a rail pressure gauge is preferred over the fuel
pressure:

"On the rail pressure, low or fluctuating rail pressure don't
necessarily equate to a dead CP3 (injection pump).  It's use is to give
the operator a base line of rail operating pressures at given load and
engine rpm's.  Out of the norm for same driving conditions could help
diagnose the concern with the high pressure side of the fuel system.
Ie. the fuel control acuator (fca) sticking or cycling improperly (low
to no rail pressure) or a bad rail pressure sensor or fuel valve. both
would cause performance concerns and could asst. Dodge or other diesel
techs in more accurate diagnosis of the concern.  For example the CP3
could be failing causing a low rail pressure, if the tech, did
troubleshooting and found the FCA, rail sensors and low pressure side
volume's to be up to par, the ECM (engine control module)  or CP3 would
be the obvious culprit."

Note, I am not trying to pit anyone against anyone.  I trust this guy,
he's a great mechanic.  What I am trying to overcome is my own personal
ignorance on the matter.  I'd like to understand better why one is
better than the other.  Or ... if I'd be better served with scrapping
the fuel gauges altogether and just put in two gauges (tranny temp and
pyro).

> A rail pressure gauge is really just a "gee-whiz" kind of gauge,

This is what I am trying to avoid.  Having a gauge for the sake of
having a gauge doesn't excite me at all.

> unless
> you're planning on playing around with your fuel pressure to get more power
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that I run on level 1 (mildest setting), just to give a little more fuel way
> down low.

I highly doubt that my truck will ever be anything but stock.  I like it
just the way it is.

> For reference, I currently run 7 gauges - pre-and-post-turbo EGT's
> (pre-turbo being read by my TST box), boost, fuel pressure, tranny temp, oil
> pressure, and water temp (needed to fill the last hole, and I never trust
> the factory idiot lights in the shape of gauges).

Okay ... you *might* need to calm down a little.   :-)

Craig C.
Tom Lawrence - 30 May 2007 19:19 GMT
> This is the justification from the mechanic I have been dealing with after
> asking him why a rail pressure gauge is preferred over the fuel pressure:

All of what he says is correct - however, all that information is available
to any tech diagnosing the truck by simply hooking up the DRB3 will
operating the truck.  So having a rail pressure gauge is only going to be of
use to you to indicate that, "yep, there's a problem - better take it to the
dealer".  However, the truck having little to no power is going to be an
even bigger indicator of the same problem.

> I highly doubt that my truck will ever be anything but stock.  I like it
> just the way it is.

Okay - then that narrows things down a bit.  In your case, then, I'd say the
most important gauge is the tranny temp gauge, followed by the pyro,
followed by fuel pressure, and here's the reasoning:

In stock form, it's much more likely to kill your tranny from overheating it
(pulling heavy at slow speeds, no torque converter lock-up, building lots of
heat in the transmission) than it is to burn up your engine.  When towing
with my truck (and with the power dialed down to more sane levels), I could
see 230°F+ on my tranny temp, before I would hit 1300°F on the pyro.

Now, that doesn't mean that the engine is immune from melting itself...  the
3rd gens do run hotter than the previous 24V's, and with the right
combination of power and load, it's possible to see 1350°F+ on your pyro -
and that's not something you want to do for an extended period of time.  At
that point, it's time to slow down, downshift, get the engine RPMs (and
thereby boost) up to help cool those EGT's a bit.

And lastly, from our previous discussions, a failed/failing lift pump can
still cause damage to your injection pump...  not nearly as quickly as the
older 24V's, but the possibility is still there.

Other gauges - rail pressure, boost, and others, are simply
informational....  you're not going to kill your engine if you loose boost
(but you're going to know it right away, because power will be down, and
EGT's will be up).  You're also not going to damage anything if your FCA
breaks and you lose rail pressure.  Again, you're sure going to know it,
because power will be low-to-non-existant - but again, no damage can come of
it.
Craig Christian - 30 May 2007 19:23 GMT
> Okay - then that narrows things down a bit.  In your case, then, I'd say the
> most important gauge is the tranny temp gauge, followed by the pyro,
> followed by fuel pressure, and here's the reasoning:

Thanks.  Just what I needed (and wanted) to hear.

Craig C.
Mike Simmons - 31 May 2007 02:35 GMT
>> Mounting will be a 3 pod dash mount.  I want a tranny temp, pyro and I
>> thought a fuel pressure gauge.  However, the guy doing the install feels
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> oil pressure, and water temp (needed to fill the last hole, and I never
> trust the factory idiot lights in the shape of gauges).

Hummmph!!  Only 7 gauges!!??  I have eight!!  The seven you mentioned plus
the heated seat temp gauge!!

Pantywaist!!

;^)

Mike
Roy - 31 May 2007 03:28 GMT
>>> Mounting will be a 3 pod dash mount.  I want a tranny temp, pyro and I
>>> thought a fuel pressure gauge.  However, the guy doing the install feels
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> Hummmph!!  Only 7 gauges!!??  I have eight!!  The seven you mentioned plus
> the heated seat temp gauge!!

I'm not even going to venture a guess where ya plug that one in.
<VBG>

Roy
> Pantywaist!!
>
> ;^)
>
> Mike
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.