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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Trucks / October 2007

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77 power wagon with 360 problem

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bassfishin911@msn.com - 19 Sep 2007 02:46 GMT
ok A buddy of mine just bought a 77 power wagon that was one of them
military 1 1/4 ton ones i think they were.. well anyway its got a 360
that was rebuilt anout 1000 miles ago it has an edelbrock manifold
with a holley 700 or 750 4 bbl carb... it just started smokin out the
tailpipe very bad he runs it to and from work and it burns about a
quart of oil a day.....Head gasket???? valve seals???? what could it
be???but it is very white smoke..while its ideling and even if hes
only goin 10mph...any info is greatly appreciated and also we would
like to convert it from full time 4x4 to part time...can i just get a
set of louckout hubs or is there more involved????...thanks alot
BDK - 19 Sep 2007 02:57 GMT
> ok A buddy of mine just bought a 77 power wagon that was one of them
> military 1 1/4 ton ones i think they were.. well anyway its got a 360
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> like to convert it from full time 4x4 to part time...can i just get a
> set of louckout hubs or is there more involved????...thanks alot

Probably the intake manifold gaskets are bad, a very common small block
problem. My 77 had major problems with it, until I used the right
gaskets, and some insanely bad smelling glue on them.

I had 3 360 powered vehicles, a 74 Roadrunner, the 77 PWagon, and an 86
Ramcharger, and all had to have the gaskets changed at least once. I
only had the ramcharger a short time before I sold it, but the other
ones were bought new and I had them both for over 3 years.

BDK
SnoMan - 19 Sep 2007 05:00 GMT
>Probably the intake manifold gaskets are bad, a very common small block
>problem. My 77 had major problems with it, until I used the right
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>only had the ramcharger a short time before I sold it, but the other
>ones were bought new and I had them both for over 3 years.

I think this guy hit it right on the head with the intake gasket
suggestion. Old  Dodge 360's are not the only engine to suffer for
this. Even some new ones do too.  BTW, a 700 or 750 is way to big for
that engine (bigger is not better with carbs) it would run better over
all with something around a 500 to 550.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Bryan - 19 Sep 2007 05:48 GMT
bassfishin911 wrote:
> ok A buddy of mine just bought a 77 power wagon that was one of them
> military 1 1/4 ton ones i think they were.. well anyway its got a 360
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> like to convert it from full time 4x4 to part time...can i just get a
> set of louckout hubs or is there more involved????...thanks alot

I agree with some of the other replies -- he could very-well be sucking
crankcase oil fumes into the intake ports.  I suggest that after verifying
the compression is good, he start by checking the fit of the manifold to the
heads.  If it's a b*itch to get the manifold sit low-enough to get the bolts
in, you're likely sucking crankcase oil and the manifold should be shaved to
fit (or the gaskets are too thick).  If the bolt holes in the manifold
line-up on-center with the threaded holes in the heads (with gaskets in
place and allowing for a small amount of gasket compression), he's fine as
far as fit goes.

The other concern are the gaskets themselves.  While the OEM cast iron
intake manifold will work with the teflon gaskets (FelPro PermaTorque, etc),
aluminum intake manifolds have a tendency to warp when those types of
gaskets are used.  My automotive machinist clued me in about that when my
racecar's 340 (Holley Strip Dominator manifold) wouldn't return to idle as
quick as it should.  He suggested I use paper gaskets.  I dunno if they're
still made but, my machinist suggests "'75 360 gaskets made by Victor" or if
the manifold fits loose, gaskets made by Mr. Gasket (they're thicker).  With
the paper gaskets, use *a little* sealer (Permatex "Aviation Form-a-gasket",
"High-Tack", etc) around the ports.  Be sure to not overtorque the bolts
(you'll have to guess at the middle bolts).  On the other hand, my other
340's OEM cast iron intake manifold is so rigid, I can use whatever gasket I
throw at it.

The end seals (under the front and rear of the manifold) in the gasket kits
are either soft foam (which weep after time) or cork/rubber, which are a
b*itch to compress.  Chrysler used roll pins to locate these end seals in
place.  My machinist discards the roll pins & end seals, and lays down a
suitable bead of RTV silicone rubber (after cleaning *all* oil from the
gasket and engine block surfaces).  Never a leak, and the manifold is easy
to get to sit down onto the intake gaskets.

Your friend's carb might be a /tad/ on the large side, but still should be
ok.  A smaller carb would have somewhat better off-idle throttle response
(due to the smaller venturis) at the sacrifice of a little top-end power.  I
believe that the ideal size carb for a bone-stock hp or slightly warmed
340/360hp would be 600-650 cfm, so you're likely not tooo much over that
number.

I can't help you with the 4x4 stuff... no savvy there!

Bryan
'68 Barracuda 340-S bracket racer
'69 Barracuda 340-S convertible
BDK - 19 Sep 2007 09:05 GMT
> bassfishin911 wrote:
> > ok A buddy of mine just bought a 77 power wagon that was one of them
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> '68 Barracuda 340-S bracket racer
> '69 Barracuda 340-S convertible

A 700 or 750 should work ok, since they had a Thermoquad on my
Roadrunner, and it was an 850, I think. I knew a guy that bought a 73
Charger with a 340 and a 750 Holley on it (Aftermarket). The Holley got
cracked by his brother when he got carried away tightening it up, so he
borrowed my spare TQ and kickdown linkage (Assembled out of several
corpses I got from a junkyard) and it ran a lot better, on and off the
track. A TQ that is set up right is unbeatable, for milage, and for
power.

My Power Wagon came with a Holley 2 bbl, and I swapped it to the
aluminum version of the stock 4 barrel and put an AFB I got cheap on it
as soon as the warranty ran out. Once a "flat spot" just off idle was
fixed by a local carb guru and his magic drill bit, it ran great, and
had great throttle response. I added a cam, lifters and had a friend's
uncle clean up the intake and lightly port the heads, and it ran great,
15.10's when it was 110 degrees out, and solidly in the 14's when it was
cool out. It was LOUD with the giant pipes and turbo mufflers I had on
it.

I still miss that truck, but it sure was a POS.

BDK
SnoMan - 19 Sep 2007 14:29 GMT
>A 700 or 750 should work ok

 360 is going to use about 550 CFM at 5500 RPM  at most and a stock
one will be long past is power range at that RPM. 4 bbl are flow rated
at a 1.5 inch pressure drop (2 bbls 3 inches) so even a 500 will flow
more than 500 CFM. Smaller carbs give higher mixture veleocites and
better reaponce at lower and mid range RPM's. Many use big carbs think
thay help but they never bothers to try a smaller carb to see how it
would indeed run. I think it is the number os saying that they have a
750 or 850 on there small block that it makes it "bad" when with a
smaller carb it would be "badder" most of the time.  
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
bassfishin911@msn.com - 19 Sep 2007 17:03 GMT
> >A 700 or 750 should work ok
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

ok well if it has anything to do with it.. it does have a mild
saturday night special cam in it... but it just started smoking like 3
days ago and hes been driving it every day for the past two weeks with
no smoke at all...the smoke now is absolutly rediculous he actually
got pulled over by a cop wen he went into down yesterday....... the
guy only used it to plow in the winter so it wasnt driven very much,
now my freind drives it everyday...i will check compression as soon as
i can get the plugs beoke loose they are very rusted into the head
they are goin to be a b*tch to get out, what is the ideal compression
for a 360,i only really mess with chevy smallblocks....if compression
is good then i will pull the manifold and drop a set of gaskets
on...should i just get a junkyard cast iron manifold??? thanks alot
you guys realy help out alot and i really appreciate it...
MoParMaN - 19 Sep 2007 20:35 GMT
I thought when I was in the Army in the 70's that the power wagon I had had
a 340 in it???

Signature

------MoParMaN------

TEDWARD Said:

Eggs are really good for you.  They have all the nutrition needed to make a
chicken.

bassfishin911@msn.com - 19 Sep 2007 20:59 GMT
On Sep 19, 3:35 pm, "MoParMaN" <scott.hendryx.clot...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> I thought when I was in the Army in the 70's that the power wagon I had had
> a 340 in it???
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Eggs are really good for you.  They have all the nutrition needed to make a
> chicken.

well i dont know how to tell the difference, you may be right....The
guy that my buddy got it from told him that it was a rebuilt
360.....where are the numbers so i can fingure out which it has in
it???thanks
MoParMaN - 19 Sep 2007 21:43 GMT
> On Sep 19, 3:35 pm, "MoParMaN" <scott.hendryx.clot...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> 360.....where are the numbers so i can fingure out which it has in
> it???thanks

Dood, I don't remember that long ago, I am getting old.  But I'm pretty sure
mine had a 340 in it.  The military ones just said Dodge PowerWagon on them
and nothing else.

Signature

------MoParMaN------

TEDWARD Said:

Eggs are really good for you.  They have all the nutrition needed to make a
chicken.

MoParMaN - 19 Sep 2007 21:51 GMT
Here's some more stuff.  After googling several M880's, I see that all of
them mention they have a 318 in them.

http://www.dodgepowerwagonm880.com/Dodge%20M880%20W200%20Engine%20and%20engine%2
0parts.html


Signature

------MoParMaN------

TEDWARD Said:

Eggs are really good for you.  They have all the nutrition needed to make a
chicken.

bassfishin911@msn.com - 20 Sep 2007 01:44 GMT
On Sep 19, 4:51 pm, "MoParMaN" <scott.hendryx.clot...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> Here's some more stuff.  After googling several M880's, I see that all of
> them mention they have a 318 in them.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Eggs are really good for you.  They have all the nutrition needed to make a
> chicken.

ok thanks but i do know that the plate inside says cargo m882- w-200
dodge----so i dont no wether that the 2 instead of the 0  means
anything or not..
MoParMaN - 20 Sep 2007 01:58 GMT
> On Sep 19, 4:51 pm, "MoParMaN" <scott.hendryx.clot...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> dodge----so i dont no wether that the 2 instead of the 0  means
> anything or not..

I dunno, maybe someone on this chatroom was a motorpool Sgt.

Signature

------MoParMaN------

TEDWARD Said:

Eggs are really good for you.  They have all the nutrition needed to make a
chicken.

SnoMan - 20 Sep 2007 15:50 GMT
>Here's some more stuff.  After googling several M880's, I see that all of
>them mention they have a 318 in them.

In the time frame imvolved they could have a 225, a 318, a 360,  a 400
or a 440. 340 was never used.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
johninKY - 30 Sep 2007 21:20 GMT
The 340 was only produced for a small number of years.  Thinking the run
went from 68 to 72.  Do know the 360 was the 340's replacement.  No Dodge
truck ever came with the 340.  Highly doubt the military PW even had the
360.  If te engine is original then thin k 318.

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Bryan - 20 Sep 2007 04:08 GMT
bassfishin911 wrote:
> well i dont know how to tell the difference, you may be right....The
> guy that my buddy got it from told him that it was a rebuilt
> 360.....where are the numbers so i can fingure out which it has in
> it???thanks

It'll be cast into the passenger side of the block... "360-2", etc.
Bryan
BDK - 20 Sep 2007 03:54 GMT
> I thought when I was in the Army in the 70's that the power wagon I had had
> a 340 in it???

They quit making the 340 at the end of the 73 year, and the 360 replaced
it.

BDK
SnoMan - 20 Sep 2007 15:48 GMT
>I thought when I was in the Army in the 70's that the power wagon I had had
>a 340 in it???

You mean 440. 340 never made it in a truck unless someone put it in
there
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
sqdancerLynn - 20 Sep 2007 08:43 GMT
The problem could be intake manifold. If the heads were machined excessive
during the rebuild , It will have a hard time sealing. As to 360 id look
on the block by the starter. Another way is the thickness of vibration
dampner  the 318/340 is  1"  the 360 is about 1 3/8"  The 340 was dropped
from production in 72-73. 360's were notirous for low compression.  Any HP
cam
will cause a lower cranking compression 160 psi is in the ideal range.
Pratical it is probably
130 psi. I built a custom 360 street motor years age  had machine shop cut
.050 off the BLOCK for 0 deck height & .040 off the heads & it did require
a custom fitted intake manifold

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LarryD - 20 Sep 2007 18:23 GMT
On Sep 18, 9:46 pm, bassfishin...@msn.com wrote:
> ok A buddy of mine just bought a 77 power wagon that was one of them
> military 1 1/4 ton ones i think they were.. well anyway its got a 360
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> like to convert it from full time 4x4 to part time...can i just get a
> set of louckout hubs or is there more involved????...thanks alot

Well, I could be WAY off base here, but this exact thing happened to
me many years ago.  I had a 65 Chevy Impala SS with a 283 with
powerglide tranny.  You didn't say if you had an auto tranny, and I
have no idea if the Dodge was in any way similar to Chevy's setup
BUT.....  I was getting clouds of white smoke out of my
exhaust....turned out it was a small diaphram valve on the auto
tranny, which was hooked up to a vacuum hose on the engine.  The
diaphram blew and the engine was sucking tranny fluid making immense
clouds of white smoke.  I know this is a very long shot, but my
symptoms were the same except for the engine using oil (the
transmission was though!).
LarryD
Roy - 20 Sep 2007 19:44 GMT
> On Sep 18, 9:46 pm, bassfishin...@msn.com wrote:
>> ok A buddy of mine just bought a 77 power wagon that was one of them
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> transmission was though!).
> LarryD

That would be a modulator valve.
BigIronRam - 20 Sep 2007 21:50 GMT
> On Sep 18, 9:46 pm, bassfishin...@msn.com wrote:
>> ok A buddy of mine just bought a 77 power wagon that was one of them
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> transmission was though!).
> LarryD

Chrysler transmissions didn't use vacuum modulators, makes them great
candidates for super and turbocharging.  Good thought though, tranny fluid
makes great clouds of white smoke.
LarryD - 20 Sep 2007 23:21 GMT
>  Chrysler transmissions didn't use vacuum modulators, makes them great
> candidates for super and turbocharging.  Good thought though, tranny fluid
> makes great clouds of white smoke.- Hide quoted text -

Thanks for the info.  Like I said, it was a long shot, but I will
never forget those billowing clouds of white smoke.  A friend and I
had just rebuilt that engine and put it back together.  We thought we
had screwed up big time, and the white smoke really threw us.  When we
finally had to add trans fluid, the light bulb came on.
LarryD
Diamond Dave - 21 Sep 2007 00:24 GMT
>>  Chrysler transmissions didn't use vacuum modulators, makes them great
>> candidates for super and turbocharging.  Good thought though, tranny fluid
>> makes great clouds of white smoke.- Hide quoted text -

Another white smoke source can be brake fluid being sucked in thru the power
booster if the master cylinder is leaking badly out its rear seal. Only seen
this once in 25 years of brake work.
bassfishin911@msn.com - 21 Sep 2007 04:11 GMT
> >>  Chrysler transmissions didn't use vacuum modulators, makes them great
> >> candidates for super and turbocharging.  Good thought though, tranny fluid
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> booster if the master cylinder is leaking badly out its rear seal. Only seen
> this once in 25 years of brake work.

yea you guys really have some great info and ideas...tomorrow ill stop
ovr his house and i will pull off the vacume line going to the brake
booster and i will plug it and see if it quits smoking..(he doesnt
really  work on anything, but hes learning...i do most of the work on
his truck for him)....i do know that it uses brake fluid perdy
bad....i figured it was just rear brake cylinders leaking it.....he
has to put that special silicone stuff in it....thanks alot and i will
check it out....you guys really are awsome..thanks again
bassfishin911@msn.com - 25 Sep 2007 18:21 GMT
> > >>  Chrysler transmissions didn't use vacuum modulators, makes them great
> > >> candidates for super and turbocharging.  Good thought though, tranny fluid
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> has to put that special silicone stuff in it....thanks alot and i will
> check it out....you guys really are awsome..thanks again

ok well i put new intake manifold gaskets and a different manifold on
the motor..before i put the gaskets on i made sure that the manifold
fitted the angles and everything of the heads..it fit like a
glove...absolutly perfect..it did have oil inside the old manifold
that i took off..should it be there??i put everything back together
and shes still smokin like a b*tch...what should i do now?????thanks
BigIronRam - 25 Sep 2007 18:41 GMT
>> > >>  Chrysler transmissions didn't use vacuum modulators, makes them
>> > >> great
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> that i took off..should it be there??i put everything back together
> and shes still smokin like a b*tch...what should i do now?????thanks

Still white smoke or blue?

it just started smokin out the
tailpipe very bad he runs it to and from work and it burns about a
quart of oil a day.....Head gasket???? valve seals???? what could it
be???

Let's see, a fresh rebuild and it's burning a quart a day...broken oil
rings?
Nosey - 26 Sep 2007 00:17 GMT
> ok well i put new intake manifold gaskets and a different manifold on
> the motor..before i put the gaskets on i made sure that the manifold
> fitted the angles and everything of the heads..it fit like a
> glove...absolutly perfect..it did have oil inside the old manifold
> that i took off..should it be there??i put everything back together
> and shes still smokin like a b*tch...what should i do now?????thanks

There should not be oil in the intake runners. Was the oil evenly
distributed throughout the manifold or was it only found in one section? Are
you using a PCV valve? If you take the oil fill cap off while the engine is
running do excessive vapors escape? It's normal for some vapors to whisp out
of the oil fill but it shouldn't be pumping out smoke. When you did the
compression test what were the results? What did the spark plugs look like?
Were any them wet or heavily carbon crusted? Do you have milky looking oil
or coolant? If you run it with the radiator cap loose does it quit smoking?
Signature

Ken

BDK - 26 Sep 2007 00:45 GMT
> > ok well i put new intake manifold gaskets and a different manifold on
> > the motor..before i put the gaskets on i made sure that the manifold
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Were any them wet or heavily carbon crusted? Do you have milky looking oil
> or coolant? If you run it with the radiator cap loose does it quit smoking?

If it's using that much oil, and it was a gasket issue. I would think
you would see an obvious problem when you pulled off the manifold, like
places where no contact was made when it was tightened up. There isn't
any crack in it, is there? like where oil splash would be sucked right
in. My 77 Power Wagon's 360 didn't have a single straight edge on the
heads. I replaced them with a set I found in a junkyard right out of a
freshly wrecked Charger. Those were straight, and after porting them,
and solving the intake leak issue, it finally ran great and used no oil.

I just wonder if the thing has messed up rings, so bad it's just pumping
oil. There would be massive blowby, and taking off the oil filler would
definitely show it.

A compression check would probably show several nearly dead cylinders,
or one horrible one.

BDK
johninKY - 09 Oct 2007 02:02 GMT
Rings installed upside down/ cylinders never honed?

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